ZoS Please Seriousy Consider FORKING the Game

Rudrani · January 2021

Under the Umbrella of one App/Login

Keep the Geographic fork: NA/ EU

Add a playstyle fork:

Solo PvE. ("Overland Questing")
Solo PvP (Duels and Battlegrounds)
Group PvE (Dungeons and Trials)
Group PvP (Cyrodiil and Imperial City)

Characters Exist accross both forks, but are customizable PER fork.

TRANS-ALL-FORKS
- Character appearance,
- name,
- race,
- class,
- XP and achievements
- Bank (allowing me to get Powerful Assault, for example, from a Group PvP fork, and make it accessable to my characters on a Group PvE fork)

PER-INDIVIDUAL-FORK
- Skill point assignments
- Skill bars
- Equiped gear
- CP assignments
- Char inventory
- Guilds!

WHY?
Two reasons

1) Improve the social experience
2) Improve the server optmiization and performance

SOCIAL EXPERIENCE
Most of the social grief in ESO comes from mixing people who should be on one fork with people on another fork. For example, priarily solo questers in a random normal with an end-game group PvEer trying to farm transmute crystals. Keep people with similar interests together will improve their experience. They will meet more like-minded people, and fewer people they cant even figure out.

SERVER PERFORMANCE
If 90% of the players are soloists, have them all on one server that is optimized to perform well with solo instances, etc.
Give the PvP players their own servers, dedicated to what THEY are doing.
Give the endgamers their own servers, dedicated to what THEY need.

PS - this may come off as "elitist" but, from a business and marketing perspective 90% (or whatever) of the players being soloist doesn't mean you should cater the whole game to them. The 10% (or whatever) that are hardcore PvP and PvE are the majority of the players who run Twitch accounts and are big Internet Gamers, and wind up impacting the public awareness of your game. In other words they/we are the "loudmouths." So it is financially worth it to give us dedicated servers for what we do, so we have a better experience in the game, and thus you get much better free publicity.

starkerealm · January 2021

Forking the game dev would be a catastrophically complicated thing to do. In your example, it would effectively quadruple dev costs to no real value.

Rudrani · January 2021

starkerealm wrote: »

Forking the game dev would be a catastrophically complicated thing to do.

It's not terribly complicated.

They already have these four separate game-styles. All they have to do is make them accessable or non-accessable per fork.

If I log in for solo PvE, there are no dungeon finders, battleground queues, etc. The locations arent even on the map.

If I log in for group PvE, I start in a hub (like my primary or a designated "group zone" like craglorn), and can fast travel to any of the group instances, or group zones (Craglorn). None of the zones are available for open world.

If I log in for solo PvP, its similar, I log into a designated spot, like my primary, and can travel from there to battlegrounds or dueling instances / arenas.

If I log in for group PvP, I log into my home campaign, or some lobby where I can select campaign.

Its mildly complex, not "catastrophically complicated."

starkerealm wrote: »

...it would effectively quadruple dev costs to no real value.

A ) It is not 4x as complicated. There is initial restructuring which is a moderately daunting undertaking and after that the whole thing is simplified, and you can balance the stats and skills per fork.

B ) Value is twofold, as explained in OP, (1) better social experience by keeping birds-of-a-feather together (yo! this IS an MMO), and (2) better performance especially for people who need better performance, thus much better PR via the free publicity from streames and alcasts.

starkerealm · January 2021

Rudrani wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Forking the game dev would be a catastrophically complicated thing to do. In your example, it would effectively quadruple dev costs to no real value.

It's not terribly complicated.

In software development, forking involves splitting an existing project into multiple separate projects. This means that any future development on each fork is completely separate, requiring a separate team, any CQ needs to be performed on each fork separately.

So, yeah, it becomes remarkably complicated the longer it goes on as the codebases diversify.

barney2525 · January 2021

So, you are saying ... Fork this game ?

But I like it the way it is

Vevvev · January 2021

Why am I imagining Sheogorath stabbing a copy of the game with Forky?

Kiralyn2000 · January 2021

As a die-hard solo player, with no interest in PvP.... this sounds like a terrible idea.

Hapexamendios · January 2021

I'm forking confused.

starkerealm · January 2021

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

As a die-hard solo player, with no interest in PvP.... this sounds like a terrible idea.

The idea of having to maintain a semi-compatible database across multiple dev forks just makes me want to vomit with rage.

barney2525 · January 2021

So, on the same Account

Character A takes Solo Overland and Questing - and joins 5 guilds

Character B takes Solo PvP - and joins 5 different Guilds (since they are per individual character)

Character C takes Group Overland and Questing - and joins 5 completely different Guilds

Character D take Group PvP - and joins 5 also completely different Guilds

hmmmmmmmm ....

So are the characters on this one account going to be able to move things like Gold from server to server? How exactly could a single in-game Bank function when it has to span all 4 servers ? How does the system recognize that the daily login reward has been claimed on one server and not the others? Or does each server get a login reward?

NewBlacksmurf · January 2021

Just separate PvP

thorwyn · January 2021

It's not terribly complicated.

Backseat coding 101.

kargen27 · January 2021

" For example, priarily solo questers in a random normal with an end-game group PvEer trying to farm transmute crystals."

And the alternative is both on their separate tines queue for a dungeon and the group takes most of an eternity (in game time) to form. People queuing for specific dungeons may never get a group. There can already be a long wait, why make it worse.

And where do the players wanting to do end game stuff but aren't quite there yet go? How do you prevent people just wanting a carry from joining a server they are not ready for?

Why should I need to change servers just because I finished dailies and now want to PvP a bit?

PeacefulAnarchy · January 2021

Rudrani wrote: »

PER-INDIVIDUAL-FORK
- Skill point assignments
- Skill bars
- Equiped gear
- CP assignments
- Char inventory
- Guilds!.

I have no opinion on whether the underlying idea is a good one, but all of this except character inventory (which would be a mess to do with a fork anyway) would be much better and more easily accomplished as in game options rather than forks.

Skills, CP and equipped gear could easily just have a loadout menu where you choose a slot with a saved allocation. You could make them auto load by type of instance to do what you want, or you can make them manually selectable but only in specific areas (homes and crafting areas in cities , the pre-start area in battlegrounds, and the starting area for dungeons/trials)

Guilds could be expanded to allow you to join more, but guilds have to designate themselves as vendor guilds or not and you can only join 5 vendor guilds. This would be a more complex change to balance, you'd have to implement cool downs on joining/leaving guilds and on guilds changing their designation and I don't know how more guilds per player might impact server load, but it would still be much easier than forking.

Rudrani wrote: »

SOCIAL EXPERIENCE
Most of the social grief in ESO comes from mixing people who should be on one fork with people on another fork. For example, priarily solo questers in a random normal with an end-game group PvEer trying to farm transmute crystals. Keep people with similar interests together will improve their experience. They will meet more like-minded people, and fewer people they cant even figure out.

This seems to imply that each fork would still have all the content, in which case that would allow for a lot of potential exploits and trolling, and would also require a lot more server power, and it would also split the userbase and make for longer queue times for everyone. If not then the PvEer will still have to go to the PVP server to PVP and the dungeon server to dungeon and none of this does anything meaningful in this regard.

SERVER PERFORMANCE
If 90% of the players are soloists, have them all on one server that is optimized to perform well with solo instances, etc.
Give the PvP players their own servers, dedicated to what THEY are doing.
Give the endgamers their own servers, dedicated to what THEY need.

These things are already on different servers. Cyro/IC/Trial/Dungeons/overland are separate instances, they already don't directly affect each other. They may indirectly affect each other in that overall resources are limited and pulled more towards the ones that are more in demand than the others, but that resource allocation wouldn't change with forks. Depending on what their current implementation is, it might even be worse by adding a lot of overhead.

vivisectvib16_ESO · January 2021

Stop saying fork.

Jayroo · January 2021

lol

Miszou · January 2021

Rudrani wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Forking the game dev would be a catastrophically complicated thing to do.

It's not terribly complicated.

They already have these four separate game-styles. All they have to do is make them accessable or non-accessable per fork.

If I log in for solo PvE, there are no dungeon finders, battleground queues, etc. The locations arent even on the map.

If I log in for group PvE, I start in a hub (like my primary or a designated "group zone" like craglorn), and can fast travel to any of the group instances, or group zones (Craglorn). None of the zones are available for open world.

If I log in for solo PvP, its similar, I log into a designated spot, like my primary, and can travel from there to battlegrounds or dueling instances / arenas.

If I log in for group PvP, I log into my home campaign, or some lobby where I can select campaign.

Its mildly complex, not "catastrophically complicated."

starkerealm wrote: »

...it would effectively quadruple dev costs to no real value.

A ) It is not 4x as complicated. There is initial restructuring which is a moderately daunting undertaking and after that the whole thing is simplified, and you can balance the stats and skills per fork.

B ) Value is twofold, as explained in OP, (1) better social experience by keeping birds-of-a-feather together (yo! this IS an MMO), and (2) better performance especially for people who need better performance, thus much better PR via the free publicity from streames and alcasts.

Yeah, no. That bolded part is already catastrophically complicated from a user perspective.

Why the fork should I have to log out of "Solo PvE" and back in on "Group PvE" just to do the daily pledge? Just... no.

Girl_Number8 · January 2021

FORK NO!!!! 😂🤣

starkerealm · January 2021

Miszou wrote: »

Yeah, no. That bolded part is already catastrophically complicated from a user perspective.

Why the fork should I have to log out of "Solo PvE" and back in on "Group PvE" just to do the daily pledge? Just... no.

Yeah, from a technical standpoint, it is absolutely incoherently complex.

So, "forking," is where a development project is split into two separate projects.

For example, let's say you write a piece of code and maintain it for a few years. Then I buy the rights to use your code for my product. At this point, you keep developing the code, but my team simultaneously makes modifications to the version we're using, meaning at this point those are separate versions of the program. Over time, these will become increasingly different from one another, to the point that they won't even be compatible.

Forking is useful when you're developing a piece of software, and need to modify some "off-the-shelf" code to do something you need.

Once you've forked a code base, it's important to think of each code base as an entirely separate program. Some familiarity with one version can help you interact with another, but it's not safe to assume that the code is entirely analogous. This means, things like bugfixes, need to be developed for each fork independently, and you're going to see bugs in one fork that do not exist in another. Even when something breaks in both, it's not safe to assume that the same solution will fix both issues.

It should say a lot, that ESO is not forked between the PC and console releases.

It's not just a user perspective, on a technical front, this would lead to a catastrophically complicated backend. I have, literally seen, developers shut down because they forked their codebase for multiple teams, thinking it would be easier to keep each piece up and running, when it actually caused the entire operation to grind to a halt.

Nairinhe · January 2021

Ewww. That's a forking horrible idea.

If I did a bit of questing and now want to solo a dungeon, then run for chests in Cyro or IC, then remembered that there's a lorebook in a trial I can pick up without fighting, then want to run Battlegrounds and then farm some nirncrux in Craglorn, how many times I have to relog to do all this solo activities?
And what about group BGs?

Kwoung · January 2021

Miszou wrote: »

Rudrani wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Forking the game dev would be a catastrophically complicated thing to do.

It's not terribly complicated.

They already have these four separate game-styles. All they have to do is make them accessable or non-accessable per fork.

If I log in for solo PvE, there are no dungeon finders, battleground queues, etc. The locations arent even on the map.

If I log in for group PvE, I start in a hub (like my primary or a designated "group zone" like craglorn), and can fast travel to any of the group instances, or group zones (Craglorn). None of the zones are available for open world.

If I log in for solo PvP, its similar, I log into a designated spot, like my primary, and can travel from there to battlegrounds or dueling instances / arenas.

If I log in for group PvP, I log into my home campaign, or some lobby where I can select campaign.

Its mildly complex, not "catastrophically complicated."

starkerealm wrote: »

...it would effectively quadruple dev costs to no real value.

A ) It is not 4x as complicated. There is initial restructuring which is a moderately daunting undertaking and after that the whole thing is simplified, and you can balance the stats and skills per fork.

B ) Value is twofold, as explained in OP, (1) better social experience by keeping birds-of-a-feather together (yo! this IS an MMO), and (2) better performance especially for people who need better performance, thus much better PR via the free publicity from streames and alcasts.

Yeah, no. That bolded part is already catastrophically complicated from a user perspective.

Why the fork should I have to log out of "Solo PvE" and back in on "Group PvE" just to do the daily pledge? Just... no.

ROFL @Miszou!

But honestly OP, I have seen numerous games over the years split out RP & PVP. Inevitably they discard the PVP server, because it becomes too much of a hassle to maintain when considered separately from PVE and does require an entirely separate team to maintain. For the RP servers, those actually work for the most part, with the exception of the griefers that roll a char there just to grief the PRers and ruin their day. Sadly, there are a LOT of those type of players, and folks like me who rolled up there with no interest in RP, but just wanted a nicer server to play on.

As for characters being shared across all those "forks", yeah no, it would create a nightmare on so many different levels I can imagine off the top of my head, and probably scads more I can't.

Zenzuki · January 2021

thorwyn wrote: »

It's not terribly complicated.

Backseat coding 101.

Yep.

Gonna need a BIG FORK to manage all that spaghetti!

Beardimus · January 2021

No thanks. Big No..

Maybe talk problem rather than solution as some of the problems you are hinting at have other options, that are better than 'forking' which rolls against much of the MMORPG ethos

Salvas_Aren · January 2021

login for PvP, friend asks me for help in a dungeon - now

then: i cant join dungeon, i cant even get the whisper - what an improvement

for pledges, daily BG, daily crafting and daily random you would have to log in 3 times per char then, zeni will love your idea

LalMirchi · January 2021

Terrible idea. No fork please.

Lysette · January 2021

A lot play several of these play styles - if you fork the game, they will loose part of "their game" and are prone to leave the game forever. It's a terrible idea.

preevious · January 2021

Rudrani wrote: »

Characters Exist accross both forks, but are customizable PER fork.

TRANS-ALL-FORKS
- Character appearance,
- name,
- race,
- class,
- XP and achievements
- Bank (allowing me to get Powerful Assault, for example, from a Group PvP fork, and make it accessable to my characters on a Group PvE fork)

PER-INDIVIDUAL-FORK
- Skill point assignments
- Skill bars
- Equiped gear
- CP assignments
- Char inventory
- Guilds!

You're probably not familiar with application development, but what you are suggesting is incredibely complicated to set up.
I understand your point, but this is in fact pure, unadulterated madness.

How on earth would you make the gear part work? I equip my ring of infinite destruction in the pvp fork. It's not equipped in my pve fork, and I set it in the bank, there.
I still have it equiped in my pvp fork, but since the bank is supposedly shared .. did I just dupe it? are there a million performance-killing checks in place to prevent me of doing that?

It's the mother of all bad ideas.

EDIT
the "it's not that complicated" made me laugh, and then, die inside.
It's not just complicated. It's OMFG PLEASE KILL ME complicated.
And I create and develop somewhat complex applications for a living.

Foto1 · January 2021

it's a terrible idea. I want to do everything at once on one character

wakeyjimb16_ESO · January 2021

I don't think I've seen this forum so unified as it is right now on this post. I'm practically tearing up. Even if it is to collectively bury someone's idea just because it had the audacity to be utter crap; it brought us all closer together.

Danikat · January 2021

I don't understand the benefit of doing this, even if it was an easy change to make. It sounds extremely annoying for players, and gives no real benefit.

The issue of finding like-minded people for dungeon groups would be better solved by adding a LFG tool that lets players choose a group to join. Have a dungeon finder which works a bit like the guild finder (or game-wide zone chat), where players can put up a short description of their group and then other players choose the one which is best for them instead of being dumped into any group with an opening.

And I don't know why people keep imagining that splitting the game off into more instances of the same maps will somehow lead to there being more servers. That's like saying if you buy more games you'll then have a better computer because you'd need one to run the new games. The two are entirely separate. You could upgrade your PC without buying new games, or you could buy new games and keep trying to run them on your current PC - you're proposing that ZOS do the second one.

They could (and have in the past) changed the servers without needing to change the algorithms that split players into different copies of the map. They could also change that algorithm without changing the servers, but it wouldn't improve performance, it just shuffles the same pieces around in a different order.

Nairinhe · January 2021

wakeyjimb16_ESO wrote: »

I don't think I've seen this forum so unified as it is right now on this post. I'm practically tearing up. Even if it is to collectively bury someone's idea just because it had the audacity to be utter crap; it brought us all closer together.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/558043/suggestion-overhaul-the-games-loot-system-to-only-drop-what-our-characters-have-points-in