Stop Race skill changes !!! Need Nords change tokens !

AyaDark · January 2021

Stop it already !!!

How can be compared 1000 stamina regen each 5sec to as example with 2600 def ?

2600 def is less than 2 and 3 items bonus.

2000 stamina regen in block is like 5 item bonus.

Nord is not perfect DD, it was good tank, it will be bad in all aspects now ?

How is it balanced ?

I have 3 nords, main tank, necro tank and sorc tank. I do not want change race each update !

Can some thing in this game already do not change ?

Want my change race tokens ! For each Nord i have on account.

OlumoGarbag · January 2021

Are you nord seeing the benefits of frost resistance....
just kidding i have 5 nords they will all go in the trash if this goes live

AyaDark · January 2021

How is possible to do chanes like this ?

By the way Alessian Bulwark newer give HP regen right ?
Alessia Order may be ?

It is even pain to read patch notes becouse of you see there.

DK skill that DK never use did not work correct 1.5 year ! No one including me even do not care. It is now fixed, it is good- 1.5 year to fix skill is fast changes ... . Good that it was finally done.

But balance like this is more pain to brain than i even do not know.... .

It is more pain than read my bad english texts

Ascarl · January 2021

Khajiit have also been hit hard. The extra 2% Crit/damage healing won't offset the crit chance nerfs.

This does not even take Malacath meta into account.

dcmgti · January 2021

My only Nord tank is a warden but I have two nord medium armor pvp toons. Would take 3 race change tokens. My other PVE tanks are Imperial. It will be Imperial too if this sticks. Main reason I had a Nord tank was for the resists to try double frost staves. Without the extra resists Imperial sustain is superior.

Merlin13KAGL · January 2021

Nord
- Resist Frost:
  - This passive no longer grants immunity to the Chilled status effect.
  - Increased the Frost Resistance to 4620, up from 2310.
- Rugged: Reduced the Armor granted from this passive to 2600, down from 3960.

This breaks your Nord how, exactly?

AyaDark · January 2021

Nord can not be good DD, healer or anything. Now it is not even good tank???

Very low parameters !

Even before update it was only good tank, with good parametrs, now even old values are not good in compare with imperial or redgard.

You make it smaller and now we can get frost effects on us ... greate !

What Nord is for now ?

Like Imperial race after first changes - to rerace ?

I was Imperial -> now i am nord.
Ok i will:
From nord to -> ???

What race will be next to rerace to not choose it ?

GrimTheReaper45 · January 2021

The nord changes kinda suck, I have a nord tank thats a really fun ult gen build. I think we were all really happy with how nord turned out after the last racial changes.

Wood elf changes were good. I really liked those.

Elwendryll · January 2021

This is way too dramatic. You can play tank with mostly anything.
My tank is a khajiit (and a sorc), I can clear absolutely anything with it.
Overall several races were nerfed, it's okay.

HankTwo · January 2021

Seems a bit overnerfed. If they want to reduce resistances they could at least buff some other aspects of the race apart from the ultra niche frost resistances.

Xeniph · January 2021

Elwendryll wrote: »

This is way too dramatic. You can play tank with mostly anything.
My tank is a khajiit (and a sorc), I can clear absolutely anything with it.
Overall several races were nerfed, it's okay.

While I agree his reaction is a bit over the top, he does have a point.

Changing racial bonuses that are behind a paywall is a quite obvious money grab.

I think we can all agree that if/when they adjust racial passives, they should come with one free respec per toon that is lvl 50.

Ylikollikas · January 2021

Buffing imperial while nerfing nord in the same patch. Really makes me think they looked at some statistics and saw an opportunity to make money with race change tokens. They are really hoping all those pvp heavy armor stamina users are going to drown them in cash.

Ascarl · January 2021

Elwendryll wrote: »

This is way too dramatic. You can play tank with mostly anything.
My tank is a khajiit (and a sorc), I can clear absolutely anything with it.
Overall several races were nerfed, it's okay.

The problem is not that you can't do something with a given race. The problem is that people with non-meta races are shunned by some toxic players in groups.

GoodFella146 · January 2021

About time they get rid of this stupid cheese. Nords are supposed to be terrible anyway imo

WrathOfInnos · January 2021

Most of the changes to racial passives were helpful to balance, and long overdue. Imperial buff was needed, Bosmer buff was needed, Khajiit buff was needed, Redguard buff was needed.

Argonian nerf doesn’t make sense to me. They still have no damage, and now get worse sustain.

Nord change was pretty small compared to some of the others, lost 1360 armor and gained 2310 frost resistance. It’s a nerf, but not much of one. There’s no reason to race change over it, they’re still tough and have the best ultimate gen of any race.

KurtAngle2 · January 2021

Redguard still needs a bit of buff, otherwise races are for the most part balanced now

YandereGirlfriend · January 2021

Ylikollikas wrote: »

Buffing imperial while nerfing nord in the same patch. Really makes me think they looked at some statistics and saw an opportunity to make money with race change tokens. They are really hoping all those pvp heavy armor stamina users are going to drown them in cash.

It's not a conspiracy.

Nords were clearly OP in their bonuses and were the obvious BiS race for tanking. Now there is a bit more diversity.

At the end of the day, ~2% more damage taken isn't going to ruin your build. Imperials were always under-powered but now they have an actual role as a sustain race.

Strider__Roshin · January 2021

Yeah Nords look awful. They don't do damage, and they're no longer tanky. Just a bad race now.

Twohothardware · January 2021

That resistance passive Nords have needed nerfed because it was too much but their damage needs to be increased.

Ylikollikas · January 2021

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Ylikollikas wrote: »

Buffing imperial while nerfing nord in the same patch. Really makes me think they looked at some statistics and saw an opportunity to make money with race change tokens. They are really hoping all those pvp heavy armor stamina users are going to drown them in cash.

It's not a conspiracy.

Nords were clearly OP in their bonuses and were the obvious BiS race for tanking. Now there is a bit more diversity.

At the end of the day, ~2% more damage taken isn't going to ruin your build. Imperials were always under-powered but now they have an actual role as a sustain race.

They took it too far other way around. Post patch Nord racial bonuses equal roughly to 3.7 set bonuses, while same for imperials is around 5.5, which means Imperial race will be almost 50% more stat dense as a race than Nord. Anyone who wants to min-max for pvp should change their nord to imperial.

WrathOfInnos · January 2021

Ylikollikas wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Ylikollikas wrote: »

Buffing imperial while nerfing nord in the same patch. Really makes me think they looked at some statistics and saw an opportunity to make money with race change tokens. They are really hoping all those pvp heavy armor stamina users are going to drown them in cash.

It's not a conspiracy.

Nords were clearly OP in their bonuses and were the obvious BiS race for tanking. Now there is a bit more diversity.

At the end of the day, ~2% more damage taken isn't going to ruin your build. Imperials were always under-powered but now they have an actual role as a sustain race.

They took it too far other way around. Post patch Nord racial bonuses equal roughly to 3.7 set bonuses, while same for imperials is around 5.5, which means Imperial race will be almost 50% more stat dense as a race than Nord. Anyone who wants to min-max for pvp should change their nord to imperial.

@Ylikollikas I find these interesting. Do you mind sharing the set bonus calculation? Like did you compare the Nord ult gen to the WW hide set and adjust for the magnitude and cooldown difference? How was Imperial cost reduction calculated? Effective sustain on mag and stam individually + some fraction of the Akaviri Dragonguard or Potentates set for ult cost? Or just a flat comparison to the 5pc on Alteration mastery? Assuming standard 5pc bonuses are about 2.32X a normal set bonus?

thadjarvis · January 2021

The mit got knocked down from <7% to <4%. We'll live

Canned_Apples · January 2021

It wouldn’t be an issue if you started picking your race for looks or lore instead of a slight stat boosts.

HankTwo · January 2021

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Ylikollikas wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Ylikollikas wrote: »

Buffing imperial while nerfing nord in the same patch. Really makes me think they looked at some statistics and saw an opportunity to make money with race change tokens. They are really hoping all those pvp heavy armor stamina users are going to drown them in cash.

It's not a conspiracy.

Nords were clearly OP in their bonuses and were the obvious BiS race for tanking. Now there is a bit more diversity.

At the end of the day, ~2% more damage taken isn't going to ruin your build. Imperials were always under-powered but now they have an actual role as a sustain race.

They took it too far other way around. Post patch Nord racial bonuses equal roughly to 3.7 set bonuses, while same for imperials is around 5.5, which means Imperial race will be almost 50% more stat dense as a race than Nord. Anyone who wants to min-max for pvp should change their nord to imperial.

@Ylikollikas I find these interesting. Do you mind sharing the set bonus calculation? Like did you compare the Nord ult gen to the WW hide set and adjust for the magnitude and cooldown difference? How was Imperial cost reduction calculated? Effective sustain on mag and stam individually + some fraction of the Akaviri Dragonguard or Potentates set for ult cost? Or just a flat comparison to the 5pc on Alteration mastery? Assuming standard 5pc bonuses are about 2.32X a normal set bonus?

I mean lets do it, why not. Assuming 5 piece bonus is worth ~ 2.33 set boni:

New Nord:

- 1000 health = 0.829 set boni (compared to generic set bonus)
- 1500 stam = 1.369 set boni (compared to generic set bonus)
- 2600 resistances = 1.748 set boni (compared to generic set bonus)
- 5 ult every 10 seconds = 0.971 set boni (compared to most similar 5 piece bonus werewolf hide)
- 4620 frost resistances = 0.388 set boni (since frost damage is one out of 8 different damage types, 1/8 the value of a generic resistance buff of the same value was used. Note, that this estimation arguably overvalues the passive, since frost damage is one of the rarer damage types in the game)

5.305 set boni in total

New Imperial:

- 2000 health = 1.658 set boni (compared to generic set bonus)
- 2000 stam = 1.825 set boni (compared to generic set bonus)
- 6% cost reduction = 2.33 set boni (compared to most similar 5 piece bonus battlefield acrobat or alteration mastery)

5.813 set boni in total

Verdict: In this comparison Imperial wins with a slighty higher stat density worth roughly half a set bonus. This makes Imperial ~ 9.6% more stat dense than Nord. Judging by this, the resistance passive of Nord should be increased by ~ 755 resistances to make them equal.

However, it is important to note that stat piece boni, and especially 5 piece boni are not perfectly balanced with each other, so in practice the actual performance of these passives might differ from the here estimated values.

YandereGirlfriend · January 2021

HankTwo wrote: »

However, it is important to note that stat piece boni, and especially 5 piece boni are not perfectly balanced with each other, so in practice the actual performance of these passives might differ from the here estimated values.

This is sort of the elephant in the room though and is why Nords were so OP in PvP content.

Mitigation, in a format where your success is derived from surviving damage, is basically the gold standard of buffs.

Meanwhile, sustain is only situationally useful and has grown less useful after the sustain buffs granted from the last patch.

So while they may be within 9% it is not truly an apples-to-apples comparison as to their actual combat utility.

Leogon · January 2021

Any race can tank, Nords need a damage buff.

WrathOfInnos · January 2021

HankTwo wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Ylikollikas wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Ylikollikas wrote: »

Buffing imperial while nerfing nord in the same patch. Really makes me think they looked at some statistics and saw an opportunity to make money with race change tokens. They are really hoping all those pvp heavy armor stamina users are going to drown them in cash.

It's not a conspiracy.

Nords were clearly OP in their bonuses and were the obvious BiS race for tanking. Now there is a bit more diversity.

At the end of the day, ~2% more damage taken isn't going to ruin your build. Imperials were always under-powered but now they have an actual role as a sustain race.

They took it too far other way around. Post patch Nord racial bonuses equal roughly to 3.7 set bonuses, while same for imperials is around 5.5, which means Imperial race will be almost 50% more stat dense as a race than Nord. Anyone who wants to min-max for pvp should change their nord to imperial.

@Ylikollikas I find these interesting. Do you mind sharing the set bonus calculation? Like did you compare the Nord ult gen to the WW hide set and adjust for the magnitude and cooldown difference? How was Imperial cost reduction calculated? Effective sustain on mag and stam individually + some fraction of the Akaviri Dragonguard or Potentates set for ult cost? Or just a flat comparison to the 5pc on Alteration mastery? Assuming standard 5pc bonuses are about 2.32X a normal set bonus?

I mean lets do it, why not. Assuming 5 piece bonus is worth ~ 2.33 set boni:

New Nord:

- 1000 health = 0.829 set boni (compared to generic set bonus)
- 1500 stam = 1.369 set boni (compared to generic set bonus)
- 2600 resistances = 1.748 set boni (compared to generic set bonus)
- 5 ult every 10 seconds = 0.971 set boni (compared to most similar 5 piece bonus werewolf hide)
- 4620 frost resistances = 0.388 set boni (since frost damage is one out of 8 different damage types, 1/8 the value of a generic resistance buff of the same value was used. Note, that this estimation arguably overvalues the passive, since frost damage is one of the rarer damage types in the game)
5.305 set boni in total

New Imperial:

- 2000 health = 1.658 set boni (compared to generic set bonus)
- 2000 stam = 1.825 set boni (compared to generic set bonus)
- 6% cost reduction = 2.33 set boni (compared to most similar 5 piece bonus battlefield acrobat or alteration mastery)
5.813 set boni in total

Verdict: In this comparison Imperial wins with a slighty higher stat density worth roughly half a set bonus. This makes Imperial ~ 9.6% more stat dense than Nord. Judging by this, the resistance passive of Nord should be increased by ~ 755 resistances to make them equal.

However, it is important to note that stat piece boni, and especially 5 piece boni are not perfectly balanced with each other, so in practice the actual performance of these passives might differ from the here estimated values.

Yep, that looks about right to me, thanks for doing the work. I’m sure this could be done 5 different ways and arrive at 5 slightly different answers, but it seems like Nord is over 5 set bonuses so I question how someone arrived at the number 3.7.

Still it does appear that Nord is a little behind in density. Maybe they could get that 1500 Max Stam rounded up to 2000? That would be the addition of 0.46 set bonus, and bring their total up to 5.76. Wouldn’t make them much tankier, but would help those that want to play Nord DPS.

AyaDark · January 2021

HankTwo wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Ylikollikas wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Ylikollikas wrote: »

Buffing imperial while nerfing nord in the same patch. Really makes me think they looked at some statistics and saw an opportunity to make money with race change tokens. They are really hoping all those pvp heavy armor stamina users are going to drown them in cash.

It's not a conspiracy.

Nords were clearly OP in their bonuses and were the obvious BiS race for tanking. Now there is a bit more diversity.

At the end of the day, ~2% more damage taken isn't going to ruin your build. Imperials were always under-powered but now they have an actual role as a sustain race.

They took it too far other way around. Post patch Nord racial bonuses equal roughly to 3.7 set bonuses, while same for imperials is around 5.5, which means Imperial race will be almost 50% more stat dense as a race than Nord. Anyone who wants to min-max for pvp should change their nord to imperial.

@Ylikollikas I find these interesting. Do you mind sharing the set bonus calculation? Like did you compare the Nord ult gen to the WW hide set and adjust for the magnitude and cooldown difference? How was Imperial cost reduction calculated? Effective sustain on mag and stam individually + some fraction of the Akaviri Dragonguard or Potentates set for ult cost? Or just a flat comparison to the 5pc on Alteration mastery? Assuming standard 5pc bonuses are about 2.32X a normal set bonus?

I mean lets do it, why not. Assuming 5 piece bonus is worth ~ 2.33 set boni:

New Nord:

- 1000 health = 0.829 set boni (compared to generic set bonus)
- 1500 stam = 1.369 set boni (compared to generic set bonus)
- 2600 resistances = 1.748 set boni (compared to generic set bonus)
- 5 ult every 10 seconds = 0.971 set boni (compared to most similar 5 piece bonus werewolf hide)
- 4620 frost resistances = 0.388 set boni (since frost damage is one out of 8 different damage types, 1/8 the value of a generic resistance buff of the same value was used. Note, that this estimation arguably overvalues the passive, since frost damage is one of the rarer damage types in the game)
5.305 set boni in total

New Imperial:

- 2000 health = 1.658 set boni (compared to generic set bonus)
- 2000 stam = 1.825 set boni (compared to generic set bonus)
- 6% cost reduction = 2.33 set boni (compared to most similar 5 piece bonus battlefield acrobat or alteration mastery)
5.813 set boni in total

Verdict: In this comparison Imperial wins with a slighty higher stat density worth roughly half a set bonus. This makes Imperial ~ 9.6% more stat dense than Nord. Judging by this, the resistance passive of Nord should be increased by ~ 755 resistances to make them equal.

However, it is important to note that stat piece boni, and especially 5 piece boni are not perfectly balanced with each other, so in practice the actual performance of these passives might differ from the here estimated values.

Frost resistance can not even by compared as any bonus. Chieled status effect is real thing.

Tanks do not need frost resist at all.

For other roles it is the same useless.

And add to this, that some bonuses can be like 2 item sets bonus, but they and therr combination can be useless.

The same for nord.

Even last racial passive change was pain to players.

I think redgard, dark elf, argo or nord. I had dark elf, do not like other race looks so i make nord. Even than there bonuses were compared like better bonuses ws good bonuses + good look.

They buff that 2 races and nerf Nord.

Nord is bad in any other aspect out of tanking ! Why such changes ???

Ok i change race again, do Players need race change each update to play normally ?
Stop it already.

And even with changes, we need change how character looks again.

Some people change Nick Name to character race, but i do not.

It is really a pain

Stop pls already change things in this game. Are there not a lot of other problems other than races ? You just already change it not that much time ago !!! Why do you change it again ???

StarOfElyon · January 2021

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Nord
Resist Frost:
This passive no longer grants immunity to the Chilled status effect.

Increased the Frost Resistance to 4620, up from 2310.

Rugged: Reduced the Armor granted from this passive to 2600, down from 3960.

This breaks your Nord how, exactly?

Nord is still going to be good. A reduction in resistance (when they were probably over cap) means people just won't be able to play completely dumb and get away with it. People will actually have to develop some dodging and blocking skills like other races do.

AyaDark · January 2021

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Nord
Resist Frost:
This passive no longer grants immunity to the Chilled status effect.

Increased the Frost Resistance to 4620, up from 2310.

Rugged: Reduced the Armor granted from this passive to 2600, down from 3960.

This breaks your Nord how, exactly?

Nord is still going to be good. A reduction in resistance (when they were probably over cap) means people just won't be able to play completely dumb and get away with it. People will actually have to develop some dodging and blocking skills like other races do.

Useless bonuses and its combination do not make character good.

The only nord good part was easy get 32500 res.

Now you will get over cup or less res.

In exchange of sustain.

Other race can just easely get cup and have better sustain or other good parametrs.

Just compare this to redgard as example.

It can not be even compared !

Redgard is better tank and stam DD.

Nord is trash, thank you.

StarOfElyon · January 2021

No, it's not easy for other races to get to resistance cap without sacrificing a lot of damage. Now, Nords are not clearly the best choice but they are still a good choice. I'm still leveling a Nord right now (and honestly, I feel better about it). Nord was OP.