What about Destruction Staves?

MashmalloMan · January 2021

If Bows, DW and 2H are getting changes to support more hybrid playstyles, why was nothing done for Destruction Staves?

Bow:

Accuracy Passive:
- This passive now grants Critical Chance rather than Weapon Critical.
- Rank II now grants 6% Critical Chance, up from 5%.

DW (and 2H):

Twin Blade and Blunt Passive: Reworked this passive to grant the following bonuses:
- Axes now increases your Critical Damage and Healing Done by 2/4% per axe, rather than having a chance to apply a Bleed.
- Daggers now grant 1.7/3.4% Critical Chance per dagger, rather than 2.5/5% Weapon Critical Chance.
- Maces now grant 825/1650 Armor Penetration per mace, rather than ignoring 5/10% of the target’s Physical Resistance.

Destruction Staff:

Penetrating Magic Passive:
- Your destruction staff abilities ignore 10% of the enemies spell resistance.

Can penetrating magic receive a more universal aproach like 1650 armor penetration just applied to the character sheet for all attacks. This fixes your stated goal of making the passives less binary and supporting hybrid playstyles. It's a weak and forgotten passive that quickly becomes null in pve and in pvp sways greatly from useful.. to not so useful. I think it deserves the same treatment.

Edit: To @ESO_Nightingale point below, please look at the Ancient Knowledge passive as well, the changes to DW and 2H make every type of weapon (axe vs sword vs dagger vs mace) unique, but also easily interchangeable. Destruction staves have no where near this amount of flexibility because Fire staff trumps Shock and Frost staves in almost every build, aside from maybe Frost staves on Wardens.

YandereGirlfriend · January 2021

Completely agree.

Ronin37 · January 2021

Nothing also happened with sword and shield

Athan1 · January 2021

Usually magicka users equip weapons, but a few stamina users equip staves too (weird lot).

exeeter702 · January 2021

I cant think a single scenario where a martial focused melee weapon wielding character would want to equip a destruction staff that shoots magic out.

I can think of numerous scenarios where a magic focused character would want to wield bladed weapons.

In TES games that is.

Shrug*

MashmalloMan · January 2021

Athan1 wrote: »

Usually magicka users equip weapons, but a few stamina users equip staves too (weird lot).

exeeter702 wrote: »

I cant think a single scenario where a martial focused melee weapon wielding character would want to equip a destruction staff that shoots magic out.

I can think of numerous scenarios where a magic focused character would want to wield bladed weapons.

In TES games that is.

Shrug*

Well it wouldn't only help hybrids or stamina characters, it would help pure magicka builds too. The passive is dead in pve because you reduce mobs resistance to next to nothing. It also only applies to destruction staff spells, which makes it even more useless.

kringled_1 · January 2021

I've come across a few pvp stamina builds running the VH staff, AFAIK for the combination of ranged fracture and the tether damage.

Dracane · January 2021

Awesome idea.

Dracane · January 2021

exeeter702 wrote: »

I cant think a single scenario where a martial focused melee weapon wielding character would want to equip a destruction staff that shoots magic out.

I can think of numerous scenarios where a magic focused character would want to wield bladed weapons.

In TES games that is.

Shrug*

At the very least, it would narrow the rather massive gap between staves and 2handers in pvp.
Mauls grant 3300 penetration to everything on top of melee weapons having a lot more base damage, while penetrating magic only works with destruction staff abilities, which many do not even use. Granting it a universal penetration would be an improvement in every way, even if not used by hybrids.

exeeter702 · January 2021

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Athan1 wrote: »

Usually magicka users equip weapons, but a few stamina users equip staves too (weird lot).

exeeter702 wrote: »

I cant think a single scenario where a martial focused melee weapon wielding character would want to equip a destruction staff that shoots magic out.

I can think of numerous scenarios where a magic focused character would want to wield bladed weapons.

In TES games that is.

Shrug*

Well it wouldn't only help hybrids or stamina characters, it would help pure magicka builds too. The passive is dead in pve because you reduce mobs resistance to next to nothing. It also only applies to destruction staff spells, which makes it even more useless.

I dont see how this is truly relevant. If you are generating your damage through magicka and via a destruction staff, you dont benefit from physical penetration, so the pve environment where mobs have reduced armor is not even a factor. Help me understand in what scenario a character generating their damage in this way would benefit from the staff having physical penetration? Or are you suggesting that the spell penetration apply to all magicka based attacks rather than solely the destruction staff spells, which in itslef isnt a hybrid issue.

MashmalloMan · January 2021

exeeter702 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Athan1 wrote: »

Usually magicka users equip weapons, but a few stamina users equip staves too (weird lot).

exeeter702 wrote: »

I cant think a single scenario where a martial focused melee weapon wielding character would want to equip a destruction staff that shoots magic out.

I can think of numerous scenarios where a magic focused character would want to wield bladed weapons.

In TES games that is.

Shrug*

Well it wouldn't only help hybrids or stamina characters, it would help pure magicka builds too. The passive is dead in pve because you reduce mobs resistance to next to nothing. It also only applies to destruction staff spells, which makes it even more useless.

I dont see how this is truly relevant. If you are generating your damage through magicka and via a destruction staff, you dont benefit from physical penetration, so the pve environment where mobs have reduced armor is not even a factor. Help me understand in what scenario a character generating their damage in this way would benefit from the staff having physical penetration? Or are you suggesting that the spell penetration apply to all magicka based attacks rather than solely the destruction staff spells, which in itslef isnt a hybrid issue.

ZOS explained their reasoning for changing bows weapon crit to weapon and spell crit, swords from weapon damage to weapon and spell damage, races like Orc to include spell damage and High Elf to include weapon damage, the list goes on and on, update to update. I don't feel like I need to justify this specific change when it is a clear outlier and in line with their vision.

The point is to offer a more versatile passive, just because you can't think of a reason it would help you, doesn't mean it wouldn't help someone and yes apply to everything if they're going to update it.

GrimTheReaper45 · January 2021

100% I really dont know why zos doesnt get we like fixed pen numbers. Like this passive has always meant were either over pen with our destro abilities or under pen with our class abilities.

They also keep putting those pen stats as the arena weapons and again its not really helpful. were either over pen on one bar or under pen on the other.

exeeter702 · January 2021

MashmalloMan wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Athan1 wrote: »

Usually magicka users equip weapons, but a few stamina users equip staves too (weird lot).

exeeter702 wrote: »

I cant think a single scenario where a martial focused melee weapon wielding character would want to equip a destruction staff that shoots magic out.

I can think of numerous scenarios where a magic focused character would want to wield bladed weapons.

In TES games that is.

Shrug*

Well it wouldn't only help hybrids or stamina characters, it would help pure magicka builds too. The passive is dead in pve because you reduce mobs resistance to next to nothing. It also only applies to destruction staff spells, which makes it even more useless.

I dont see how this is truly relevant. If you are generating your damage through magicka and via a destruction staff, you dont benefit from physical penetration, so the pve environment where mobs have reduced armor is not even a factor. Help me understand in what scenario a character generating their damage in this way would benefit from the staff having physical penetration? Or are you suggesting that the spell penetration apply to all magicka based attacks rather than solely the destruction staff spells, which in itslef isnt a hybrid issue.

ZOS explained their reasoning for changing bows weapon crit to weapon and spell crit, swords from weapon damage to weapon and spell damage, races like Orc to include spell damage and High Elf to include weapon damage, the list goes on and on, update to update. I don't feel like I need to justify this specific change when it is a clear outlier and in line with their vision.

The point is to offer a more versatile passive, just because you can't think of a reason it would help you, doesn't mean it wouldn't help someone and yes apply to everything if they're going to update it.

I'm not being self focused here. I understand full well why they made the changes to racial passives and the various weapon passives, no need to relist them.

I ask you again, exactly how would physical penetration benefit the user who is dealing damage on a destro staff bar? This isn't even me being facetious or rhetorical. If I'm missing something here, please tell me.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2021

this is a really good point and i think it's a fantastic opertunity to fix the "everyone runs fire staff" problem as well, at least from the destruction staff side, can't knock it all out in one shot. There is still engulfing flames and that new monster set to worry about.

Destruction Staff:

Tri focus Passive:

Shock Staff Heavy Attacks damage nearby enemies for 100% of the damage done. Shock Staff Light Attacks damage nearby enemies for 50% of the damage done.

This passive now no longer changes your block cost to magicka when you have an ice staff equipped, instead this effect has been moved to a CP slottable passive.

Penetrating Magic Passive:
The 10% spell penetration bonus to destruction staff skills has been changed to instead provide a flat 1000 penetration with a destruction staff equipped.

Ancient Knowledge Passive:

Equipping an ice staff will increase your critical damage by 8% (this is to make the staff genuinely a damaging weapon again based on passives, but it is still usable by tanks and healers for supportive purposes.)

Status Effects
Chilled: chilled no longer solely applies the minor brittle debuff to enemies while a frost staff is equipped. Instead, this has been moved to a new CP perk called "Shatter Point".

CP
Warfare:
(New)Shatter Point:
Applying a martial or magical status effect applies minor brittle to an enemy increasing their critical damage taken by 10% for 4 seconds.(Slottable)

(Existing)Bulwark:
Increases your Spell and Physical Resistance by 1500 when you are using a Shield or a Frost Staff.

Equipping a Frost Staff reduces the cost of blocking by 36% and increases the amount of damage you block by 20%.(Slottable)

Fitness:
(New)Magicka Ward:
Changes your block cost to magicka and reduces the magicka cost by 5% per stage. (Slottable)

Dracane · January 2021

If we really want destruction staves to be more about flavor than clear choice, we would have to make it so that all destruction staves increase all your damage done by 8%. This would instantly make frost staff more appealing and remove the uncomfortable choice you have to make.

For Wardens, Templars and Necromancers in pvp, it's a big sacrifice since your main bursts are aoe, but all your dots are single target. Giving all staves a global 8% would open up variety in my opinion and reduce favoritism.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2021

Dracane wrote: »

If we really want destruction staves to be more about flavor than clear choice, we would have to make it so that all destruction staves increase all your damage done by 8%. This would instantly make frost staff more appealing and remove the uncomfortable choice you have to make.

For Wardens, Templars and Necromancers in pvp, it's a big sacrifice since your main bursts are aoe, but all your dots are single target. Giving all staves a global 8% would open up variety in my opinion and reduce favoritism.

I believe it can still be done to keep the unique strengths of the staves and have them all be viable as well. +8% damage in general is a lot. 2h swords are 6% damage done on live anyway.

Dracane · January 2021

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

If we really want destruction staves to be more about flavor than clear choice, we would have to make it so that all destruction staves increase all your damage done by 8%. This would instantly make frost staff more appealing and remove the uncomfortable choice you have to make.

For Wardens, Templars and Necromancers in pvp, it's a big sacrifice since your main bursts are aoe, but all your dots are single target. Giving all staves a global 8% would open up variety in my opinion and reduce favoritism.

I believe it can still be done to keep the unique strengths of the staves and have them all be viable as well. +8% damage in general is a lot. 2h swords are 6% damage done on live anyway.

You forget that 2h swords are a lot stronger by default because they have a good 300 spell damage more after buffs over staves. And with that I mean the base damage difference between staves and melee weapons, not the newly added spell damage to swords.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2021

Dracane wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

If we really want destruction staves to be more about flavor than clear choice, we would have to make it so that all destruction staves increase all your damage done by 8%. This would instantly make frost staff more appealing and remove the uncomfortable choice you have to make.

For Wardens, Templars and Necromancers in pvp, it's a big sacrifice since your main bursts are aoe, but all your dots are single target. Giving all staves a global 8% would open up variety in my opinion and reduce favoritism.

I believe it can still be done to keep the unique strengths of the staves and have them all be viable as well. +8% damage in general is a lot. 2h swords are 6% damage done on live anyway.

You forget that 2h swords are a lot stronger by default because they have a good 300 spell damage more after buffs over staves. And with that I mean the base damage difference between staves and melee weapons, not the newly added spell damage to swords.

It doesn't matter too much. Just as long as it's balanced.

Anyron · January 2021

Well, frost staff is even worse now because of new block penalties on light armor

Dracane · January 2021

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

If we really want destruction staves to be more about flavor than clear choice, we would have to make it so that all destruction staves increase all your damage done by 8%. This would instantly make frost staff more appealing and remove the uncomfortable choice you have to make.

For Wardens, Templars and Necromancers in pvp, it's a big sacrifice since your main bursts are aoe, but all your dots are single target. Giving all staves a global 8% would open up variety in my opinion and reduce favoritism.

I believe it can still be done to keep the unique strengths of the staves and have them all be viable as well. +8% damage in general is a lot. 2h swords are 6% damage done on live anyway.

You forget that 2h swords are a lot stronger by default because they have a good 300 spell damage more after buffs over staves. And with that I mean the base damage difference between staves and melee weapons, not the newly added spell damage to swords.

It doesn't matter too much. Just as long as it's balanced.

Which it isn't. So no harm in going ahead.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2021

Dracane wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

If we really want destruction staves to be more about flavor than clear choice, we would have to make it so that all destruction staves increase all your damage done by 8%. This would instantly make frost staff more appealing and remove the uncomfortable choice you have to make.

For Wardens, Templars and Necromancers in pvp, it's a big sacrifice since your main bursts are aoe, but all your dots are single target. Giving all staves a global 8% would open up variety in my opinion and reduce favoritism.

I believe it can still be done to keep the unique strengths of the staves and have them all be viable as well. +8% damage in general is a lot. 2h swords are 6% damage done on live anyway.

You forget that 2h swords are a lot stronger by default because they have a good 300 spell damage more after buffs over staves. And with that I mean the base damage difference between staves and melee weapons, not the newly added spell damage to swords.

It doesn't matter too much. Just as long as it's balanced.

Which it isn't. So no harm in going ahead.

Yeah. I feel like 8% damage done is super boring. But it works as far as the destruction staff can go to make each one viable i suppose. If we aren't counting the grossly overstacked group flame damage from engulfing flames and that new monster set.

exeeter702 · January 2021

I'm still waiting on the explanation as to what in game functionality putting physical penetration on destruction staff would serve.

Dracane · January 2021

exeeter702 wrote: »

I'm still waiting on the explanation as to what in game functionality putting physical penetration on destruction staff would serve.

What in game functionality does spell crit on bows serve? Technically none, but it's there.
So why not? In the very least, it would make the passive more useful for magicka builds too.

SHOW · January 2021

Agreed with OP.

PvP: Some of these Destro passives only apply to Destro skills, and mag builds rely more on class skills, so those passives completely wiff...

I literally have countless golded out swords for my mag builds as it flat out hits harder, makes no sense.

It would be nice if they buff the Destro passives to be more useful outside of that crappy skill line lol

...or they just make better Destro skills lol

ESO_Nightingale · January 2021

Thanks for mentioning me as well op. We need destruction staves to be updated.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2021

SHOW wrote: »

Agreed with OP.

PvP: Some of these Destro passives only apply to Destro skills, and mag builds rely more on class skills, so those passives completely wiff...

I literally have countless golded out swords for my mag builds as it flat out hits harder, makes no sense.

It would be nice if they buff the Destro passives to be more useful outside of that crappy skill line lol

...or they just make better Destro skills lol

Yeah and it's the best time to make the ice staff universally viable instead of only one being needed per pve group.