Dear Traders, you don't get your listing fee back.
-
PizzaCat82✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Good luck trying to explain math to people. No, you never get your listing fee back. Its for listing. You listed it. It was listed. Transaction complete.10 -
CSose✭✭✭✭I never thought this was refunded. I always understood it to be a gold sink of 1% regardless of what happens to the item.
Yep. Anyone who's listed items for over a million gold multiple times sees in a hurry how much gold they losing and it's really easy to calculate and see you never get listing fees back.6 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Okay now that I am more awake.
[snip]
Seriously, the OP is right, it's always been this way, you never get it back. Is it a big deal? Not really, but misinformation is still misinformation. They got proof right here in this thread and people still don't believe it?
It's hard for people to understand because they are picturing in their head the user interface. The user interface implies through juxtaposition with classic math word problems that the listing fee is deducted from the selling price, rather than at time of listing. Since most people don't micromanage every coin they spend and always have enough coins to list whatever they will sell, it's very easy to forget that it's paid upfront when doing the math in your head.
So they do the mental math the way easily lost did it, not realizing that they are charging themselves a listing fee twice and then refunding it once in their mental calculation.
Why some still choose to argue it after realizing the fee is deducted from your bag upfront, I don't know. But the easy mental math error is why I suggested the UI update.Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on January 25, 2021 4:17PM4 -
manny254✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I have never actually heard anyone say it gets refunded. Must just be something from that add on.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Guilds
"First, you will be charged 1% of the price you want to sell the item for upon posting it. This collateral fee is refunded to you if the item is sold. "
Its in just about every trading guide out there. Plus since I've got into trading, pretty much everyone has told me that you get this back on an item selling.
This almost feels like a social experiment that someone planed long ago.- Mojican4 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I have never actually heard anyone say it gets refunded. Must just be something from that add on.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Guilds
"First, you will be charged 1% of the price you want to sell the item for upon posting it. This collateral fee is refunded to you if the item is sold. "
Its in just about every trading guide out there. Plus since I've got into trading, pretty much everyone has told me that you get this back on an item selling.
This almost feels like a social experiment that someone planed long ago.
It almost makes me wonder what the user interface looked like in Beta or whenever guild traders first appeared.
I mean did ZoS actually communicate this someway to the people who wrote that
Time of Listing
Listing Fee: 10 coins
Item: 1000 coins
Item sold mail
Item: 1000
Subtract a Listing Fee again: 10 coins
Total: 990 coins
Subtract House Fees: 70 coins
Total 920 coins
Refund Listing Fee 10 coins
Total: 930 coins
And then people just saw listing fee refund and run with it? It's very weird how many places it's wrong, apparently. And if this is actually what's happening, is that some weird workaround?Edited by spartaxoxo on January 25, 2021 3:41PM2 -
Feric51✭✭✭✭✭
✭spartaxoxo wrote: »]
No because the listing fee is deducted at the time of listing.
You give item worth 1000 coins plus 10 coins. You're deducting the 10 coins from the item, but the listing fee is not deducted from the item value.
Your gross return is 1000 coins, and then the house fees are deducted. What's leftover from that is what is given to you, there is no refund on the listing fee.
Man I spent way too much time trying to formulate a response that was coherent, but the tl;dr is that you and I are on the same page in terms of net income, just a different viewpoint on the start.
If you view the value as the listed price, then you do get 93% of that money in return from the sale (100% - guild/tax = 930), so it would appear that the listing fee is returned.
However, since the listed price is automatically higher than you could ever get back the whole calculation is off from the start. Example: I start with 0 gold in my bank, I list an item for 1000g. I now have -10 gold in my bank with the fee applied. The item sells and I get 100% of the asking price = 1000g. It's deposited in my bank (-10+1000g=990g). I'm never actually going to see 100% profit on this. The net value of the item is actually 990g.
I wish I had more time to explain it, but the bottom line is OP is right in that your 1% listing fee is lost to the system the minute you put the item in the trader. How you view it compared to price vs value is up to you.
Feric51
Xbox NADarkness Falls: The Crusade survivor (you young kids will never know the struggle of text-based games)0 -
Kwoung✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Actually this is very concerning, as I also assumed from everything I have read that my fee was returned. On high value low profit items like potions, this could mean losing tons of gold when you thought you were making a profit.2 -
EirgarthEldjarns✭✭✭The listing fee is always lost, thought this was common knowledge... even the wiki breaks it down, 1% at listing and 7% if it sells (in fees that is)... The proof is in the bottom of the OPs original screenie, 930 gold returned upon sale (the 1k sales price minus the 3.5 for the guild and the 3.5 for ZOS)...
That is why I always giggle at folks listing dumb things for a million gold (trying to mess with the data range for some AddOns), they are losing more then they are gaining, at least in my opinion.
The info in that mail screenshot is what is concerning, it does give the impression you get the fee back, where in you don't.
The game itself is returning the right amount of gold, whatever the sale price was -7%
Eir2 -
Eedat✭✭✭✭✭This feels like one of those basic logic and math Facebook problems lol.
You list something for 100k. You pay 1k to list it. You are at a net of -1000g. The item sells. You get 93k in the mail. Add that to your net - 1000 and you get 92k. Overall you lost 8%
You do not get your listing fee back.11 -
robertthebard✭✭✭✭✭Actually this is very concerning, as I also assumed from everything I have read that my fee was returned. On high value low profit items like potions, this could mean losing tons of gold when you thought you were making a profit.
If you've been increasing your net worth via selling the potions, every time you sell them, then no. A simple test would simply be to subtract 8% from your list price, A, and compare the result to what you spent making the potions, B. If A is greater than B, then you're still turning a profit.0 -
Kwoung✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭robertthebard wrote: »Actually this is very concerning, as I also assumed from everything I have read that my fee was returned. On high value low profit items like potions, this could mean losing tons of gold when you thought you were making a profit.
If you've been increasing your net worth via selling the potions, every time you sell them, then no. A simple test would simply be to subtract 8% from your list price, A, and compare the result to what you spent making the potions, B. If A is greater than B, then you're still turning a profit.
I will need to adjust the spreadsheet I use for this to take into account the additional 1% loss. But generally, I do not post items in markets myself when the profit margin has become that slim. That said, a lot of people seem to post final products for considerably less profit than simply selling the mats would have made, and sold a lot quicker to boot.0 -
driosketch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »It's hard for people to understand because they are picturing in their head the user interface. The user interface implies through juxtaposition with classic math word problems that the listing fee is deducted from the selling price, rather than at time of listing. Since most people don't micromanage every coin they spend and always have enough coins to list whatever they will sell, it's very easy to forget that it's paid upfront when doing the math in your head.
I think this is the issue. I've always top off or banked down every character to 10,000 gold before logging them out. Because of this, I've recognized the listing fee was taken upfront. The interface wants you to take that into account for your profit calc, but the listing fee and taxes are deducted at different points.Main: Drio Azul ~ DC, Redguard, Healer/Magicka Templar ~ NA-PC
●The Psijic Order●The Sidekick Order●Great House Hlaalu●Bal-Busters●0 -
FarstrykeGrimhawkSoul ShrivenYou do not get to add the 10g to the list price. The 10g is taken from the 1000g you expect to get from the sale. The auction house does not loan you the 10g. So you pay that up front. Your example of fraud is adding the Guild fee and the Auction house fee together a the same time. Easily_Lost shows you they are charged and paid separately. Then your 10g is refunded.
Sell Value: 1,000 G
Listing Fee: -10 G
Profit (subtotal): 990 G
Guild Bank: -35 G
Profit (subtotal): 955 G
Commission: -35 G
Profit (subtotal): 920 G
Listing Fee(refund): +10 G
Profit (final total) 930 G
"The percentage might not be exact, but the Gold amount is correct."
0 -
EirgarthEldjarns✭✭✭The 10 gold is not refunded... to list something for 1000, you pay 10gold BEFORE it even sells... the chart that was just posted above, you are taking the listing fee out of the 1000...
Lets look at it this way... say there was no listing fee...
I have 10 gold in my inventory, I list something for 1000, after taxes, I get 930 gold... add it to my inventory, I now have 940 gold...
Now, with the listing fee...
I have 10 gold in my inventory, I list something for 1000 (10 gold is taken right away, so now I have 0 gold in my inventory), after taxes, I get back 930 gold... add it to my inventory, I now have 930 gold...
Unless I am missing something, the fee is NOT being refunded...
Eir13 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭EirgarthEldjarns wrote: »The listing fee is always lost, thought this was common knowledge... even the wiki breaks it down, 1% at listing and 7% if it sells (in fees that is)... The proof is in the bottom of the OPs original screenie, 930 gold returned upon sale (the 1k sales price minus the 3.5 for the guild and the 3.5 for ZOS)...
That is why I always giggle at folks listing dumb things for a million gold (trying to mess with the data range for some AddOns), they are losing more then they are gaining, at least in my opinion.
The info in that mail screenshot is what is concerning, it does give the impression you get the fee back, where in you don't.
The game itself is returning the right amount of gold, whatever the sale price was -7%
Eir
I had never heard of the idea that the listing fee was returned for sales, but even if that was true, a non-sale would not return anything. So the million dollar listing is still really weird. Unless people thought cancelling would return money.Edited by DaveMoeDee on January 25, 2021 9:19PM0 -
EirgarthEldjarns✭✭✭Well no, to list something for 1000000 gold, you have to pay 10k up front (non refunded)... so that means they lose the 10k just to be an arse... there is another nefarious reason, but rather not mention here.
Eir0 -
Czeri✭✭✭✭✭Huh, if people really thought the listing fee gets refunded, that might explain all those 8 mill+ listings for ayleid recipes...5 -
bmnoble✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Have traded for years, if the item sells you get your listing fee back, if it expires or you take the item down yourself you lose the listing fee.0 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I have never thought I was getting the listing fee back. Guess that is what I get for not reading guides.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."0 -
EirgarthEldjarns✭✭✭Well no, those recipes will sell for 8mil, so that isn't it...
I am talking about more mundane items that folks will list for insane prices, trying to hose certain AddOns listing ranges...
For those who still doubt (I did this just to make sure)... deposit all your gold into the bank, minus 10 gold (to keep with the theme of the OPs post)..
Now post something for 1000 gold
You should have NO gold in your inventory now...
Have someone in your guild buy the item...
Look at the amount of gold in the mail, you will not see that initial 10 gold mailed back to you.
Eir2 -
Czeri✭✭✭✭✭Do those recipes actually sell? I thought it was the same handful of people relisting the same recipes over and over again, but to be fair I wasn't paying that much attention to who lists them...0
-
driosketch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭FarstrykeGrimhawk wrote: »You do not get to add the 10g to the list price. The 10g is taken from the 1000g you expect to get from the sale. The auction house does not loan you the 10g. So you pay that up front. Your example of fraud is adding the Guild fee and the Auction house fee together a the same time. Easily_Lost shows you they are charged and paid separately. Then your 10g is refunded.
Sell Value: 1,000 G
Listing Fee: -10 G
Profit (subtotal): 990 G
Guild Bank: -35 G
Profit (subtotal): 955 G
Commission: -35 G
Profit (subtotal): 920 G
Listing Fee(refund): +10 G
Profit (final total) 930 G
"The percentage might not be exact, but the Gold amount is correct."
Beginning Balance: 10,000 gold
List item for sale: (1,000g)
List fee: -10 g
New balance: 9,990 g
Item sells for 1000g
Guild cut: - 35 g
ZOS tax: -35 g
Remaining: +930 g
Final balance: 10,920 gMain: Drio Azul ~ DC, Redguard, Healer/Magicka Templar ~ NA-PC
●The Psijic Order●The Sidekick Order●Great House Hlaalu●Bal-Busters●5 -
robertthebard✭✭✭✭✭robertthebard wrote: »Actually this is very concerning, as I also assumed from everything I have read that my fee was returned. On high value low profit items like potions, this could mean losing tons of gold when you thought you were making a profit.
If you've been increasing your net worth via selling the potions, every time you sell them, then no. A simple test would simply be to subtract 8% from your list price, A, and compare the result to what you spent making the potions, B. If A is greater than B, then you're still turning a profit.
I will need to adjust the spreadsheet I use for this to take into account the additional 1% loss. But generally, I do not post items in markets myself when the profit margin has become that slim. That said, a lot of people seem to post final products for considerably less profit than simply selling the mats would have made, and sold a lot quicker to boot.
For me, it would be all profit. I gather my own mats, so there's no overhead.0 -
FarstrykeGrimhawk wrote: »You do not get to add the 10g to the list price. The 10g is taken from the 1000g you expect to get from the sale. The auction house does not loan you the 10g. So you pay that up front.
You say that the listing fee is taken upfront but also taken from the sale of the item. This doesn't make sense. The former is correct, the latter is not.
Here is a breakdown.
You list something for 1,000g. A listing fee of 10g(1%) is taken from your characters pocket upfront.
So at this point your item is listed for 1,000g and you're 10g out of pocket.
Now your item sells for its listed price of 1,000g. 70g is taken from it due to the 7% so you get sent 930g in the mail. Now due to the upfront fee of 10g you paid at the start that means you made 920g from the sale of the item.
The confusion seems to be people not realising that the listing fee is taken directly from your characters pocket at the time of listing the item.Edited by jammymacsterb16_ESO on January 25, 2021 10:37PM6 -
Have traded for years, if the item sells you get your listing fee back, if it expires or you take the item down yourself you lose the listing fee.
I have also been trading for years and the listing fee does not nor has it ever been refunded if the item sells. Explanation in my post above.10 -
EirgarthEldjarns✭✭✭I think that someone made an error long ago, and others kept running with it... I have also been trading for a long time (some posting in this thread are in my guilds) and I can tell you that you do not get that listing fee back... I am really not sure of any non-auction based game that gives you that fee back (but I could be wrong on that account)... I can only say that ESO does not...
Folks have placed proof in the thread (some much more coherent then what I put), so unsure why there are still questions... I mean, try it yourselves... hell, disable all AddOns, list and see the result.
Eir3 -
ihazzit✭✭✭EirgarthEldjarns wrote: »I think that someone made an error long ago, and others kept running with it... I have also been trading for a long time (some posting in this thread are in my guilds) and I can tell you that you do not get that listing fee back... I am really not sure of any non-auction based game that gives you that fee back (but I could be wrong on that account)... I can only say that ESO does not...
Folks have placed proof in the thread (some much more coherent then what I put), so unsure why there are still questions... I mean, try it yourselves... hell, disable all AddOns, list and see the result.
Eir
I think some of the confusion comes from the guild store interface. Yes, the profit is 92% of what the sale price is, 1% list fee and 7% guild fee and that is shown in the pic below from the guild store interface which correctly shows the profit of (for example) 1380 gold at 1500 sale price. 1500*.92=1380. However, the sold notification message from a 1500g sale shows 1398 gold received, which of course is 7%, and it's easy to surmise, 1380 + 15g list fee=1395 so, 'hey, I got my list fee back'. When in reality it's giving you 7% (1500*.93=1395) on the back end because it already took the 1% (15g) on the front end out of your pocket.
So as stated earlier by someone else, it's 1% out of pocket immediately and 7% from the selling price upon the sale.
and the 1395 gold received
If you are angry about anything in this game you are only punishing yourself.4 -
Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I never expected to get that fee back anyway so it's of little consequence to my mental well being. Always expected it to be a way ZOS curbed the inflation of gold in the game.PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK2 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I have never actually heard anyone say it gets refunded. Must just be something from that add on.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Guilds
"First, you will be charged 1% of the price you want to sell the item for upon posting it. This collateral fee is refunded to you if the item is sold. "
Its in just about every trading guide out there. Plus since I've got into trading, pretty much everyone has told me that you get this back on an item selling.
Sort of stating the obvious here, but UESP is not infallible.I never thought this was refunded. I always understood it to be a gold sink of 1% regardless of what happens to the item.
This is, seriously, the first time I've ever heard about people thinking that listing fee gets reimbursed. I've always been under the impression that whatever you spend to list an item is just gone.3 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭robertthebard wrote: »robertthebard wrote: »Actually this is very concerning, as I also assumed from everything I have read that my fee was returned. On high value low profit items like potions, this could mean losing tons of gold when you thought you were making a profit.
If you've been increasing your net worth via selling the potions, every time you sell them, then no. A simple test would simply be to subtract 8% from your list price, A, and compare the result to what you spent making the potions, B. If A is greater than B, then you're still turning a profit.
I will need to adjust the spreadsheet I use for this to take into account the additional 1% loss. But generally, I do not post items in markets myself when the profit margin has become that slim. That said, a lot of people seem to post final products for considerably less profit than simply selling the mats would have made, and sold a lot quicker to boot.
For me, it would be all profit. I gather my own mats, so there's no overhead.
@robertthebard
That's untrue because you still have an opportunity cost. In this case, the opportunity cost is the coin you would have earned if you had sold the materials directly. If the amount you make from selling potions is lower than the opportunity cost, you're operating at a loss because your materials were more valuable than your potion.
So for example less say you were trying to sell the fictional Potion of Proving.
And the potion of proving requires the following materials, and let's also give them prices you can make at the guild trader.
1 flower of courage = 100 coins
1 bag of salt = 100 coins
Total amount you can make selling the materials directly= 200 coins
You'd need to sell your Potion of Proving at a minimum of 201 coins to make a profit. 200 coins is even, and anything less is at a loss.Edited by spartaxoxo on January 26, 2021 12:02AM4
This discussion has been closed.