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Why we need GMs - With Visual.
Rantog
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I know there are any number of BOT related posts at the present, and it seems like I am simply adding another.
But this is not just about the bots, or even the gold spammers and teleport/speed hackers.
it is about the overall need for Some Form of in-game presence from Zenimax.
#1 - The Obvious.. BOTS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVi2xi-XKzQ
^ this video is compiled from Some of the clips I took last night in a 3 hour session of dungeoning.
In that 3 hours, I spent a good hour lingering in one dungeon - using Pyromancer NPCs to kill the bots with another player. (seriously fun!)
So in an actual TWO hours, I recorded activites of over 150 bots, and more than 100 of them are presented in just This video. (and an example of the Teleport Hack in the last segment)
Imagine for a moment - a GM account. Not limited to travel by foot and horse, but able to jump straight to the dungeon(s) - and able to shift between instances Of each dungeon to find the bots in each of them.
In any given hour, they could easily ban more than 100 of these scum.
And since most of those banned acounts would be replaced as the Bot operator tried to continue their activities - Zenimax would rake in the $.
100 accounts @ $50 is $5k / hour.
Certainly, over time they would buy fewer and fewer accounts, eventually dwindling to a rarity - but that is the Objective here anyway.
#2 - Also Obvious.. Gold Spammers.
A GM account could easily be set up to allow them to 'Draw' the public chats from anywhere, without requiring they actually visit that zone. So they could easily peruse the public chats to locate - and ban - the gold sellers As They Appeared, while they were waiting on activity in a given dungeon to determine if those present might be Bots.
Can you even imagine being able to Use the Chats - and knowing that the first time a gold seller spammed, was their last?
#3 - Also Obvious, but not often mentioned - Service Resolution.
I know there have been times that I needed to submit a service request in the game - that simply didn't get submitted because I know there is no In-Game staff to deal with the problem I was having.
That there are certain problems that can, and Do, arise in the game which require a Live Person (via avatar) to be present in the game to see, to understand, and to remedy the problem. And that the time spent waiting for an email to be processed, directed to a department, and eventually read by an automated mail responder - and generally ignored thereafter... makes the entire purpose of submitting the ticket invalid.
#4 - Not Obvious.. But Beneficial.
The Elder Scrolls games are what they are for two reasons.
Lore.
and Sandbox play.
We are limited on the later by the structure of the game being an MMO - but the Lore continues. There are already points in the game that the Lore is going to need addition - and having in-game staff, capable of reacting to player interaction, rather than purely scripted NPCs, allows for a richer delivery.
A GM could serve in that capacity, as well as unscripted, impromptu events. Allow them to on occasion spawn a minor invasion force from one of the opposing factions to threaten a town.
Or to infect all of the local creatures with Ataxia until the Players complete a GM-instigated quest to produce a cure..
I don't expect this sort of thing would ever be commonplace - particularly at this point, since the GM (if they had any) would be too busy with bots and spammers.
But over time, things like this work to keep the player base Invested in the game.
Lacking housing or unique epic crafting, players are unlikely to linger in the game much past max level for long - but getting the players to interact with the game staff in a more direct way makes them feel like Part Of the game, and makes it harder to walk away.
Edited by Rantog on April 22, 2014 9:15PM But this is not just about the bots, or even the gold spammers and teleport/speed hackers.
it is about the overall need for Some Form of in-game presence from Zenimax.
#1 - The Obvious.. BOTS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVi2xi-XKzQ^ this video is compiled from Some of the clips I took last night in a 3 hour session of dungeoning.
In that 3 hours, I spent a good hour lingering in one dungeon - using Pyromancer NPCs to kill the bots with another player. (seriously fun!)
So in an actual TWO hours, I recorded activites of over 150 bots, and more than 100 of them are presented in just This video. (and an example of the Teleport Hack in the last segment)
Imagine for a moment - a GM account. Not limited to travel by foot and horse, but able to jump straight to the dungeon(s) - and able to shift between instances Of each dungeon to find the bots in each of them.
In any given hour, they could easily ban more than 100 of these scum.
And since most of those banned acounts would be replaced as the Bot operator tried to continue their activities - Zenimax would rake in the $.
100 accounts @ $50 is $5k / hour.
Certainly, over time they would buy fewer and fewer accounts, eventually dwindling to a rarity - but that is the Objective here anyway.
#2 - Also Obvious.. Gold Spammers.
A GM account could easily be set up to allow them to 'Draw' the public chats from anywhere, without requiring they actually visit that zone. So they could easily peruse the public chats to locate - and ban - the gold sellers As They Appeared, while they were waiting on activity in a given dungeon to determine if those present might be Bots.
Can you even imagine being able to Use the Chats - and knowing that the first time a gold seller spammed, was their last?
#3 - Also Obvious, but not often mentioned - Service Resolution.
I know there have been times that I needed to submit a service request in the game - that simply didn't get submitted because I know there is no In-Game staff to deal with the problem I was having.
That there are certain problems that can, and Do, arise in the game which require a Live Person (via avatar) to be present in the game to see, to understand, and to remedy the problem. And that the time spent waiting for an email to be processed, directed to a department, and eventually read by an automated mail responder - and generally ignored thereafter... makes the entire purpose of submitting the ticket invalid.
#4 - Not Obvious.. But Beneficial.
The Elder Scrolls games are what they are for two reasons.
Lore.
and Sandbox play.
We are limited on the later by the structure of the game being an MMO - but the Lore continues. There are already points in the game that the Lore is going to need addition - and having in-game staff, capable of reacting to player interaction, rather than purely scripted NPCs, allows for a richer delivery.
A GM could serve in that capacity, as well as unscripted, impromptu events. Allow them to on occasion spawn a minor invasion force from one of the opposing factions to threaten a town.
Or to infect all of the local creatures with Ataxia until the Players complete a GM-instigated quest to produce a cure..
I don't expect this sort of thing would ever be commonplace - particularly at this point, since the GM (if they had any) would be too busy with bots and spammers.
But over time, things like this work to keep the player base Invested in the game.
Lacking housing or unique epic crafting, players are unlikely to linger in the game much past max level for long - but getting the players to interact with the game staff in a more direct way makes them feel like Part Of the game, and makes it harder to walk away.
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Kyotee0071✭✭✭Awesome work man, If they keep allowing these hacks and botting I just do not see how this game will survive. It's a shame because it has so much potential.
Did you seem my post about folks using 3rd party macros to weave light attack + instant cast ability + bash into single attacks using animation canceling?
So sad, =/
I didn't think my hangover was that bad this morning until I spent 10 minutes trying to log into my old Etch-A-Sketch6 -
Thepal✭✭I think your first point is the best one to point out. Zenimax will make money off each GM they have (since the botters will need to buy more accounts, which will net them far more than a person's salary). And the game will get better. Enough said.6
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Rantog✭✭✭✭
Hadn't seen it yet, but I'll look it up.Kyotee0071 wrote: »Awesome work man, If they keep allowing these hacks and botting I just do not see how this game will survive. It's a shame because it has so much potential.
Did you seem my post about folks using 3rd party macros to weave light attack + instant cast ability + bash into single attacks using animation canceling?
So sad, =/
They are able to do all sorts of things we shouldn't be Remotely capable of - because Zenimax allowed for too much of the processing to be handled client-side.
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Rantog✭✭✭✭I think your first point is the best one to point out. Zenimax will make money off each GM they have (since the botters will need to buy more accounts, which will net them far more than a person's salary). And the game will get better. Enough said.
Yes, which begs the question -- Why haven't they done it yet?1 -
Baraz✭✭✭+1 for all points.
Those poor creatures butchered in less than two seconds by borgs.
Idea : some players could gain a semi-GM status after a confirmed good reputation or good status, allowing them a power against bots, spammers, etc.- Baraz, crewmember of The Shipwrecked Pirates3 -
@Rantog Thanks for posting the video, it is an excellent capture of what we are all having to endure. Maybe if the fanbois would stop and acknowledge this is a problem instead of constantly fighting anyone that dare criticize this game we could get something done about this very big issue. Unfortunately, I really doubt in ZOS's ability to do anything before this game is driving into the ground. On the upside, once the game fails hard there won't be a market for gold selling/bots.3
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Abeille✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I sent a /feedback in game yesterday asking them if they couldn't please send someone with power to ban players to scout the dungeons from time to time. It makes it hard for legit players to get credit for the kill and complete the dungeon Just so that everyone knows, my Altmer still can't have black hair. About a dozen of Altmer NPCs in the game have black hair. Just saying.
Meet my characters:Command: Do the thing.
Zadarri, Khajiit Fist of Thalmor: The thing was done, as commanded.
Durza gra-Maghul, Orc blacksmith: The thing was done perfectly, in the most efficient way.
Tegwen, Bosmer troublemaker: You can't prove I didn't do the thing.
Sings-Many-Songs, Argonian fisher: Sure, I'll do the thing... Eventually. Maybe.
Aerindel, Altmer stormcaller: After extensive research, I've come to the conclusion that doing the thing would be a waste of resources.
Liliel, Dunmer pyromancer: Aerindel said I shouldn't do the thing. Something about "resources".
Gyda Snowcaller, Nord cryomancer: I will find a way to do it that won't waste resources and make Aerindel proud of me.
Beatrice Leoriane, Breton vampire: I persuaded someone else into doing the thing. You are welcome, dear.
Sahima, Redguard performer: Doing the thing sounds awfully unpleasant and really not my problem.
Ellaria Valerius, Imperial priestess: I'll pray to the Eight for the thing to be done, if it is Their will.0 -
Tetrasoli✭✭✭GMs can't police every single channel of the server, in every dungeon, there isn't enough manpower. Public dungeons need to be made private, one-time spawn of the boss/mobs with the option to reset after you leave. Groundbreaking as this concept is, it isn't just the bots that are causing problems.Edited by Tetrasoli on April 22, 2014 10:57PM0 -
Kyotee0071✭✭✭If this game fails hard I hope they make a single player version. I actually really enjoy the game play and story.I didn't think my hangover was that bad this morning until I spent 10 minutes trying to log into my old Etch-A-Sketch3
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Rantog✭✭✭✭GMs can't police every single channel of the server, in every dungeon, there isn't enough manpower. Public dungeons need to be made private, one-time spawn of the boss/mobs with the option to reset after you leave. Groundbreaking as this concept is, it isn't just the bots that are causing problems.
They're trying to avoid privatizing/instancing all the dungeons in that way..
But as to GMs not being able to be everywhere, they don't have to be.
Imagine for a moment.. that you sell.. . heck Smuggled Shoes.. at $6 /pair.
And the Shoe police charge you $120 every time you get caught doing this.
If you fail to sell 20 pairs of smuggled shoes before getting caught again, you are Losing money by selling those shoes.
The GMs don't have to catch every bot, they just have to catch enough of them, and often enough to make the penalties outpace the profits.
They wont' bot if it costs them money, the whole reason they're doing it is to sell gold for $.. if it costs more $ than they get, they stop doing it.
And as I explained, each bot runner that quits makes it that much easier for the GM to catch the same bot runners repeatedly.4 -
Noth✭✭✭✭
The GMs don't have to catch every bot, they just have to catch enough of them, and often enough to make the penalties outpace the profits.
They wont' bot if it costs them money, the whole reason they're doing it is to sell gold for $.. if it costs more $ than they get, they stop doing it.
And as I explained, each bot runner that quits makes it that much easier for the GM to catch the same bot runners repeatedly.
No game has ever been able to do this even with sophisticated ant-botting system in place that proactively ban instead of reactively ban.
Edited by Noth on April 22, 2014 11:10PM1 -
Wow - that is nuts! I haven't encountered bots to my knowledge. I may have just been lucky or naïve. I have friends that complained about the bots and saying that they couldn't get a hit in on the bosses, but I thought they were just overblowing things. My experience has only been people sitting around and grinding the bosses, but they behaved like normal people. No way did I come across a dozen plus dressed the exact same and attacking with the same skills in unison as per your video.
Wow - that is super crazy! That would be a horrible experience for any legitimate players.0 -
Rantog✭✭✭✭No game has ever been able to do this even with sophisticated ant-botting system in place that proactively ban instead of reactively ban.
Funny...
It worked for WoW when they banned everyone they caught using Glider.
It worked for UO when they banned everyone using EUO (why they stopped later I do not understand)
It worked for EQ when they banned everyone using MOFrog.. whatsit.
Historically, GMs actively banning bots has been the most reliable method of removing them.
Even in games where replacing accounts is as simple as making a new email -it has been effective at driving them away ... so imagine the same done where it costs $50 every time.
The next best method was PunkBuster - which now has a rep for banning about as many Innocents as Hackers.
So which do you suggest?1 -
Noth✭✭✭✭No game has ever been able to do this even with sophisticated ant-botting system in place that proactively ban instead of reactively ban.
Funny...
It worked for WoW when they banned everyone they caught using Glider.
It worked for UO when they banned everyone using EUO (why they stopped later I do not understand)
It worked for EQ when they banned everyone using MOFrog.. whatsit.
Historically, GMs actively banning bots has been the most reliable method of removing them.
Even in games where replacing accounts is as simple as making a new email -it has been effective at driving them away ... so imagine the same done where it costs $50 every time.
The next best method was PunkBuster - which now has a rep for banning about as many Innocents as Hackers.
So which do you suggest?
WoW still has bot problems. Even recently as a couple years ago, they had a massive bot problem. Further the banning never caused the profitability of botting to decrease to the point it wasn't worth it.
WoW actually doesn't use GMs to ban bots (they have even admitted to this and that doing so would be wasted man power). They use their own system to to identify and ban bots automatically.
In nearly every game, what you think is GMs banning bots is a system in place that helps auto identify them by behaviors or 3rd party software on the client. Do GMs ban bots, yes they can, but they do not do most the banning.
BTW, anytime you mention them banning bots using certain programs, that is not GMs, that is a back end system that automatically identifies the 3rd party software for the ban.Edited by Noth on April 22, 2014 11:24PM1 -
Rantog✭✭✭✭WoW still has bot problems. Even recently as a couple years ago, they had a massive bot problem. Further the banning never caused the profitability of botting to decrease to the point it wasn't worth it.
WoW actually doesn't use GMs to ban bots (they have even admitted to this and that doing so would be wasted man power). They use their own system to to identify and ban bots automatically.
In nearly every game, what you think is GMs banning bots is a system in place that helps auto identify them by behaviors or 3rd party software on the client. Do GMs ban bots, yes they can, but they do not do most the banning.
BTW, anytime you mention them banning bots using certain programs, that is not GMs, that is a back end system that automatically identifies the 3rd party software for the ban.
That was the time frame i was talking about earlier when I referenced how may players wow Lost to Bots in One Year (more than ESO has total).
Notice you point out that WoW AGAIN has a bot problem, and in the next sentence - point out that they no longer use GMs to ban bots.
That is what we call Drawing Parallels. They are not exclusory, they are the same thing. They have Bots again because they Stopped using GMs to hunt them down and kicck them out.
As to a system in place to help Identify bots - they are supposedly working on that. But it doesn't do the job on its own, no game has been able to create such a system that worked Without direct human action - except in the examples already given that result in Innocents banned rather frequently.1 -
Nyghthowler✭✭✭✭✭
✭Hell, I would volunteer my time to do it. EQ, in its hay-day, had a Guide program. Players volunteered as Guides and were low level GM's. Anything the Guide couldn't handle was passed upstairs to actual GM's. I think thats how GM's were chosen (could be wrong).
Point being, if they (ZOS) cant afford to pay GM's they might consider doing something like this.I'm not prejudiced; I hate everyone equally !2 -
Baraz✭✭✭I disagree with some here that dungeons should be solo, but I agree on the other hand that many many quests should really be solo instances without a doubt.
In many quests, the NPCs claim you are chosen, that you are individually investigating, yet when you enter the house to arrest corrupt mayor JimBob, a few other players are there and drop him in a few seconds. For those numerous quests, it must be solo. For public dungeons though, coop is cool, but boss camping must be made nearly impossible and they should be harder anyhow.Edited by Baraz on April 23, 2014 5:50PM- Baraz, crewmember of The Shipwrecked Pirates2 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Agree completely. GMs with GM tools zapping through all the dungeons (and towns as well, also some in open world for harvestbots) would fix this problem - making ESO a great place to play instead of something beautiful but spoiled by all the bots. It's an investment into the future of the game.1 -
AlienDiplomat wrote: »This isn't a game, it is a sick joke.
It's disgusting.
And so poorly designed.
To think that they all sat around a table, for years, discussing issues, before and during the development of this game, and not once did this cross their mind.
BAD MANAGEMENT.2 -
Rantog✭✭✭✭Nyghthowler wrote: »Hell, I would volunteer my time to do it. EQ, in its hay-day, had a Guide program. Players volunteered as Guides and were low level GM's. Anything the Guide couldn't handle was passed upstairs to actual GM's. I think thats how GM's were chosen (could be wrong).
Point being, if they (ZOS) cant afford to pay GM's they might consider doing something like this.
Too bad UO pretty much destroyed that potential for ever.
EQ was the only one to really apply the concept After UO - and eventually decided the risk was too much for them to continue either.
UO had the Guide, Companion, and Councilor programs - but at one point, they began Setting Hours that the volunteers were expected to work.
So some of the got together and decided - that constituted Employment, and they wanted pay.
The resulting lawsuit forever made the Risk of volunteer workers in these games, even After an agreement to Not request payment, too much to allow.
I've had countless offers by 'volunteers' to work in my own games, but I admit, it isn't only the legal liabilities that prevent me accepting. You simply can't be certain how someone will behave when you hand them the reigns to something you've invested so much of yourself to create.1 -
Or well... you could just actualy play the game instead of standing there killing bots... to each his own I guessThe statement "if you put enough monkeys behind enough typewriters... sooner or later one will produce the works of Shakespeare" has sadly been proven utterly wrong by the internet...0 -
Rantog✭✭✭✭stefaan.de.wasch1b16_ESO wrote: »Or well... you could just actualy play the game instead of standing there killing bots... to each his own I guess
You should give it a try - there's just something really satisfying about watching 15 bots all piled on a spot, burning to ghost in a puddle of fire.
Sure, they have stacks on stacks of soul gems, so they'll just rez on the spot - but it makes you feel better for a little bit.1 -
Mailmann✭✭✭
This thread is an excellent addition to the ever growing discussion concerning the lack of a in-game GM presence. You brought up a lot of great points and suggestions that I definitely support. With a triple 'A' title like Elder Scrolls Online, you expect triple 'A' service.I know there are any number of BOT related posts at the present, and it seems like I am simply adding another.
But this is not just about the bots, or even the gold spammers and teleport/speed hackers.
it is about the overall need for Some Form of in-game presence from Zenimax.
1 -
Carafina34✭✭✭ksaggies04ub17_ESO2 wrote: »Wow - that is nuts! I haven't encountered bots to my knowledge. I may have just been lucky or naïve. I have friends that complained about the bots and saying that they couldn't get a hit in on the bosses, but I thought they were just overblowing things. My experience has only been people sitting around and grinding the bosses, but they behaved like normal people. No way did I come across a dozen plus dressed the exact same and attacking with the same skills in unison as per your video.
Wow - that is super crazy! That would be a horrible experience for any legitimate players.
unfortunately i have had this happen in pretty much every public dungeon ;( i think they should just make it so 2-3 players per dungeon.
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