Jsmalls wrote: »

I keep saying it and I will keep standing by it. The problem is high health pools.

Unless it's a Xv1 scenario, there is a cap to how much damage can be dealt in a combat turn. If the opponents health is higher than your max damage, then it creates a scenario where the opponent has to make several mistakes and disregard healing (healing is and will always be OP in this game which is fine, you have to be able to recover from damage) in order for a death to occur. That's not skillful. Its not fun.

Cap PvP to a 25k~ health pool. Let players use active defenses to survive (dodge roll, block, damage shield, healing, CCing).

Call it hardcore PvP.

I'm not saying this will fix everything, but it would be a lot more fun. And you can have all the regen in the world, doesn't help if you didn't use it correctly. And you can proc all you want but you can't invest in health so they'll lose their luster, mine as well invest appropriately and use actual skills.

Ganking might become a serious problem, but gankers are always squishy so stay on your toes and you'll kill em.

This is how it was 5+ years ago. Players didn't stack 30k+ health, they had thumbs or died and learned from it.

On a side note I was PvPing last night and there was a Zerg of werewolves. A Zerg. Like 25+. All 35k+ health. They steamrolled. Talk about cancer.

At this point I hope they turn werewolves into a chihuahua. Make it unplayable. Cuz that was broken.

I somewhat agree with this. I also agree that it's better and more skilful to have players explicitly use either dodge roll, block, damage shield, healing and CCing for defense. However, if what you mention had to be implemented then I think mobility would definitely need to be looked at as well.

From personal experience, and who is someone who spends most of thier time in BGs, out-with the high health, high hitting players (which is the problem you are attempting to address) that are rocking up the kill to death ratios, the other players who are rocking up the kill to death scores are stam NBs and stam Sorcs (mag sorcs as well however that's more to do with thier execute more than anything).

In my experience the reason for this is because they have such great mobility in both stealth and streak. They go in for a kill and can then get away again without employing much of the defence mechanisms you mention.

So addressing the high health problem without looking at mobility and stealth would just increase the kill death ratio for stam nb and stam sorcs.

Just my observations.

"On a side note I was PvPing last night and there was a Zerg of werewolves. A Zerg. Like 25+. All 35k+ health. They steamrolled. Talk about cancer."

I was PvPing last night and there was a Zerg of Stam Wardens. Like 25+. All 35-45k health, all jumping up and down, all in 3 proc sets, and all casting SA, arctic blast and DB. Talk about cancer!

Weesacs wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

I keep saying it and I will keep standing by it. The problem is high health pools.

Unless it's a Xv1 scenario, there is a cap to how much damage can be dealt in a combat turn. If the opponents health is higher than your max damage, then it creates a scenario where the opponent has to make several mistakes and disregard healing (healing is and will always be OP in this game which is fine, you have to be able to recover from damage) in order for a death to occur. That's not skillful. Its not fun.

Cap PvP to a 25k~ health pool. Let players use active defenses to survive (dodge roll, block, damage shield, healing, CCing).

Call it hardcore PvP.

I'm not saying this will fix everything, but it would be a lot more fun. And you can have all the regen in the world, doesn't help if you didn't use it correctly. And you can proc all you want but you can't invest in health so they'll lose their luster, mine as well invest appropriately and use actual skills.

Ganking might become a serious problem, but gankers are always squishy so stay on your toes and you'll kill em.

This is how it was 5+ years ago. Players didn't stack 30k+ health, they had thumbs or died and learned from it.

On a side note I was PvPing last night and there was a Zerg of werewolves. A Zerg. Like 25+. All 35k+ health. They steamrolled. Talk about cancer.

At this point I hope they turn werewolves into a chihuahua. Make it unplayable. Cuz that was broken.

I somewhat agree with this. I also agree that it's better and more skilful to have players explicitly use either dodge roll, block, damage shield, healing and CCing for defense. However, if what you mention had to be implemented then I think mobility would definitely need to be looked at as well.

From personal experience, and who is someone who spends most of thier time in BGs, out-with the high health, high hitting players (which is the problem you are attempting to address) that are rocking up the kill to death ratios, the other players who are rocking up the kill to death scores are stam NBs and stam Sorcs (mag sorcs as well however that's more to do with thier execute more than anything).

In my experience the reason for this is because they have such great mobility in both stealth and streak. They go in for a kill and can then get away again without employing much of the defence mechanisms you mention.

So addressing the high health problem without looking at mobility and stealth would just increase the kill death ratio for stam nb and stam sorcs.

Just my observations.

This is always how the game plays out, health needs to always be higher than a magsorc and stamblades combo otherwise those classes will run around nuking people too easily. Getting hit for a heavy attack, 11k incap 14k bow doesn’t leave many other options worth running, the other side to this is that ward stacking to give effectively a 40k health pool makes it a far better options than healing with a hard 25k cap.

@Jsmalls

Indeed. Instead of "I'll survive by countering their play and doing XYZ" it's just "I'll survive their perfectly executed combo by doing literally nothing at all".

The heavy attack + incap + bow combo is actually the perfect example of a combo that can be easily defended against too. Both Incap and the bow take up a full GCD. Both are slow. Both can easily be dodged even after the animation begins. Even if you're CC'd it doesn't matter, because you can literally break free and dodge roll before getting hit by either of them. If you're already engaged against a NB it's even easier than that, because you know the combo is coming since that's all they've got. Hell if you're super lazy you can just hit block anytime you hear that incap or bow sound and you'll be fine. Or you could just stack 30k resistances and 35k health and not worry about game mechanics anymore, I guess.

Jsmalls wrote: »

@Weesacs

I'm not one to talk on class to class pros and cons because I only play MagSorc.

I will 100% agree we are probably one of the most mobile classes in the game. But I always assumed its a pro con thing. We're not good at standing our ground, we need to kite and relocate to survive. Where as a stam/mag DK are much less mobile but have the defenses to hold their ground.

Just my initial thought, I wouldn't disagree to a mobility evaluation, and that does go along with nerfing max health.

Just in that scenario I think you'd be looking at stationary defenses (blocking, healing, CCing) vs mobile defenses (rolling, stealthing, streaking, Line of sighting). Of those I would say line of sighting can be used by both parties and is extremely powerful, but the mobile classes probably excel in reaching these areas.

That being said (disregarding the 30k+ health stam sorcs) those mobile classes don't stack health to survive, and when caught they die easily (in comparison to high health setups). So I see this as less of an issue because when you do what you're suppose to do to kill them, they die. That might be my bias though, you tell me.

I think your evaluation regarding stationary v mobility play is correct and is probably what ZoS is aiming for. However I just feel that mobility and stealth have more advantages.

Mobile players can reset a fight much easier than stationary players. That's one of the reasons why the kill to death ratio of mobile and stealth players are usually higher than those that aren't as mobile in BGs as they tend not to die much. Even if they are overwhelmed by numerous players, it's easier for them to disengage whereas a stationary player is eventually going to die.

For example, there are few stam sorcs and stam NBs on PS4 EU who, regardless of the high MMR matches, never seem to die much and get loads of kills, and these are all experienced players in the match. When you watch them play, not only can they disengage easily enough, they then have the added advantages of playing LoS easier and being able to sprint away really fast, as well as dodge rolling. They can then pick off their targets again having fully replenished their resources and if their combo doesn't work, they disengage again.

What I'm trying to say here is that if you individually take streak, stealth, dodge roll, fast sprinting and easier LoS positioning on their own then there isn't much of an issue. However when you begin to add a few of these together you begin to get a very potent and lethal game play that is very difficult to counter for stationary players. Additionally, streak, as far as I'm aware, has no counters; it still CCs through block and dodge (happy to be corrected here if I'm wrong).

Also, I'm actually not against high health players, as long as they:

- hit like a wet noodle and
- aren't invincible to dieing (remember the old malubeth / reactive / transmutation days lol)

However the problem we have atm is that we have high health / high health regen players going around not dieing but also being able to rack up the kill to death ratios (yes I'm particularly looking at you wardens and werewolfs 😂). And yes, in most cases proc sets are making this situation worst.

I think these high health, high hitting setups will eventually get nerfed and when they do, to go back to my original post, your then going to be left with the same stam sorcs and stam NBs probably racking up even higher k/d ratios.

Then, being honest, I actually don't know what the solution to this will be but I do think it's something that will need looked at.

P.S. I actually don't mind magsorcs using streak because when you get under their shields they are vulnerable and also can't deploy the other mobile defenses as easily as stam sorcs (yes, their execute and kill stealing is annoying but that's another discussion 😂).

Jsmalls wrote: »

I keep saying it and I will keep standing by it. The problem is high health pools.

Unless it's a Xv1 scenario, there is a cap to how much damage can be dealt in a combat turn. If the opponents health is higher than your max damage, then it creates a scenario where the opponent has to make several mistakes and disregard healing (healing is and will always be OP in this game which is fine, you have to be able to recover from damage) in order for a death to occur. That's not skillful. Its not fun.

Cap PvP to a 25k~ health pool. Let players use active defenses to survive (dodge roll, block, damage shield, healing, CCing).

Call it hardcore PvP.

I'm not saying this will fix everything, but it would be a lot more fun. And you can have all the regen in the world, doesn't help if you didn't use it correctly. And you can proc all you want but you can't invest in health so they'll lose their luster, mine as well invest appropriately and use actual skills.

Ganking might become a serious problem, but gankers are always squishy so stay on your toes and you'll kill em.

This is how it was 5+ years ago. Players didn't stack 30k+ health, they had thumbs or died and learned from it.

On a side note I was PvPing last night and there was a Zerg of werewolves. A Zerg. Like 25+. All 35k+ health. They steamrolled. Talk about cancer.

At this point I hope they turn werewolves into a chihuahua. Make it unplayable. Cuz that was broken.

I kinda agree with you, but that meta Is far too gone, and what changed everything was unavoidable burst.
I loved how the first time I joined pvp i asked guildies for advices and they said "once you get to 21k health you're fine"
Pvp was all about avoiding getting cc'ed because stun (c frag/uppercut) + ultimate and you were almost dead.
But then we had thieves guild iirc and undodgeable dawn breaker so ppl had to start building more hp, because open world two people could burst you without having to wait for your mistakes. And then we had viper/tremorscale meta and things escalated quickly from there.