Suggestion for a new Story Arc unrelated to..

MasterSpatula · January 2021

VampireLordLover99 wrote: »

-Avoid the whole reluctant/rebel princess trope /again/.
.

I'll never get, nor entirely trust, this line of attack.

Khamira is a classic rightful ruler fighting for the throne trope in the vein of King Arthur or Hamlet.

Svana parallels Prince Harry from Henry the IV parts 1 and 2 and Henry V. She's even got her own Falstaff.

Is Shakespeare a hack with no new ideas just because he told stories about more than one prince? I agree that the Greymoor story was weak, predictable, and shallow. But this "princesses" line of criticism seems related to issues people have that have nothing at all to do with the quality of the storytelling itself.

"Man, the Daggerfall Covenant and the Ebonheart Pact are both ruled by High Kings who come to rely on the Vestige. ZOS is just recycling ideas."

adriant1978 · January 2021

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Is Shakespeare a hack with no new ideas just because he told stories about more than one prince? I agree that the Greymoor story was weak, predictable, and shallow. But this "princesses" line of criticism seems related to issues people have that have nothing at all to do with the quality of the storytelling itself.

There is nothing new under the sun, only a certain number of stories to tell, etc ... BUT did they really have to use pretty much the same trope twice in as many chapters?! I think that's what annoys some people, not only that the stories were so similar but that they were so similar and so close together, creating the impression that the writers couldn't think of anything new and just decided to recycle the last chapter's story with a coat of Skyrim paint slapped on it.

JD2013 · January 2021

I wouldn't mind something Orsinium like again.

That said, quite looking forward to a Daedric incursion. It's been a while!

Ghanima_Atreides · January 2021

MasterSpatula wrote: »

But this "princesses" line of criticism seems related to issues people have that have nothing at all to do with the quality of the storytelling itself.

If you're implying what I think you're implying, not necessarily. I would say the same if they were princes rather than princesses, or a prince and a princess. The storylines are hardly Shakespeare, and they feel a lot alike with very similar tropes and characters for that reason.

ealdwin · January 2021

Syldras wrote: »

Lugaldu wrote: »

A mind-controlling threat that makes everyone act contrary to their true nature.

Brave Bretons? Generous Hlaalu? Happy cheerful infantile necromancers?`:o

I'm sorry, but in defense of the citizens of High Rock and one of the noble Great Houses of Resdayn, I must protest that Bretons do in fact have Bravery in their nature, and Generosity is not outside of that of House Hlaalu.

Or do we forget the numerous knightly orders of the Breton kingdoms, boldy taking up the call to arms to face whatever threat faces the people of the kingdom they have sword their blade to? Or shall we ignore the bold actions of the armies of Dwynnen, Kambria, Phrygias, and Ykalon in halting the armies of the Camoran Usurper and eventually bringing defeat upon him in the Battle of Firewaves (1). Bretons have long been renown for their sense of adventure and desire for opportunities for fortune and glory. Such a quest obsessed culture even led one Breton, an Amelie Bontecou to rule over Thirsk hall on Solstheim as chieftain (2). Clearly, the bravery of the noble Bretons is never lacking, and very much a part of their nature.

And for the Great House of Hlaalu, do not mistake shrewd business acumen and aptitude for diplomacy for a culture of selfishness and lack of generosity. Just heed the words of Serjo Hlaalu Dram Bero in his tome "Grasping Fortune"

"But do not follow money blindly. There is value in reputation, more than many young Hlaalu realize. This value must be carefully balanced against the more tangible coins in any deal. Theft and murder are bad for business. You can steal from someone, but will he trade with you after that? You can't bargain with a dead man."(3)

. Surely, if it were in the interest of diplomacy and the maintenance of a good reputation, a Hlaalu would be generous of their own free will, and not in violation of their nature. Sure, they may be shrewd and careful with their money, but ungenerous seems a stretch.

(1) https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Fall_of_the_Usurper
(2) https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Thirsk,_a_History_--_Revised
(3) https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Grasping_Fortune

VampireLordLover99 · January 2021

MasterSpatula wrote: »

VampireLordLover99 wrote: »

-Avoid the whole reluctant/rebel princess trope /again/.
.

I'll never get, nor entirely trust, this line of attack.

Khamira is a classic rightful ruler fighting for the throne trope in the vein of King Arthur or Hamlet.

Svana parallels Prince Harry from Henry the IV parts 1 and 2 and Henry V. She's even got her own Falstaff.

Is Shakespeare a hack with no new ideas just because he told stories about more than one prince? I agree that the Greymoor story was weak, predictable, and shallow. But this "princesses" line of criticism seems related to issues people have that have nothing at all to do with the quality of the storytelling itself.

"Man, the Daggerfall Covenant and the Ebonheart Pact are both ruled by High Kings who come to rely on the Vestige. ZOS is just recycling ideas."

Both of the characters play the same role in the story and have basically the exact same personalities and quirks. Not to mention that both of these stories happened one after the other. Im pretty sure Shakespeare didn't write a prince story after another.

The story in Greymoor would have been 5x more interesting if the princess died or sacrificed herself somewhere in the story or just died in the initial attack on the solitude palace with her mother. But I predicted from the first meeting her that she was gonna live and basically be this expansion's Khamira. Wanna know why? Because she was living up to the exact same trope I saw in Elsweyr.

That's why people say she impacts the quality of the story. Because she adds nothing new, no new perspective, nothing. I for one do not want to see anymore rebel/lost royalty in the main stories for the next few years lol.

Also not to mention Shakespeare's stories also were completely different involving his princes and other characters. It wasn't just a formulaic story plot that mirrors almost identically to one another. Again, greymoor even had the 3 enemy conflicts down. Imperials, Dragons, Necromancers just got replaced with Vampires, Witches, and Reach/Void Folk.

I'm sure if the story was 100% different then Svana's presence actually would have been cool. Like if something unpredictable or tragic happened that the story was leading up to subtly, such as her death, that could have made her a truly unique character. But instead she literally just fills the same hole Khamira does.

Lugaldu · January 2021

Svana didn't necessarily have to die (although I found her kind of annoying), but it would have been a more interesting twist if she didn't take the throne in the end. And instead would have begun a real rebel life, because she likes it more than sitting on the boring throne. You could have put Lyris on the throne instead, that would have been an interesting twist.