PC NA - 3 faction war working as intended? End faction lock

barshemm · December 2020

Currently stuck trying to log in after crashing, getting lobby error over and over.

Status is AD and DC are at Kingscrest gating EP. The two factions are in the keep not fighting each other. EP already lost their scrolls, afaik yesterday and never got them back.

At this point the entire 3 faction war is 2 factions bullying the last. They are doing it so hard they are crashing the server. Every one says "spread out" but when you have 2 factions actively gating the third, how is there any spreading out?

I think this is a perfect case of why you need to stop faction lock. It's the only way to allow the player base to police itself. At this point EP players could log into DC and AD alts and attack the other factions to spread out the combat as intended.

barshemm · December 2020

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Taleof2Cities · December 2020

Pretty sure you're aware there's more than one PvP campaign you can choose, @barshemm, including some non-faction lock options.

Faction lock is here to stay, however.

barshemm · December 2020

Then put the faction lock one second in the list.

VaranisArano · December 2020

barshemm wrote: »

Then put the faction lock one second in the list.

I gotta love the argument that says that players can't read which option they picked and instead only picked because it was first. LOL. When Grayhost started, the players who wanted faction lock went there early, and the players who didn't care followed because it was populated. If players who didn't want faction lock had done the same to their campaign, the players who didn't care would have gone to the populated campaign.

Also, I'm amused that we're assuming that players would only jump to support the losing sides. Historically, its more likely that most players swap to the winning side for the better rewards, which only leads to more lopsided victories.

Alchimiste1 · January 2021

I can't believe after all these years people still care enough to want faction lock. The only real incentive for pvp is finding some good fights

WrathOfInnos · January 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

barshemm wrote: »

Then put the faction lock one second in the list.

I gotta love the argument that says that players can't read which option they picked and instead only picked because it was first. LOL. When Grayhost started, the players who wanted faction lock went there early, and the players who didn't care followed because it was populated. If players who didn't want faction lock had done the same to their campaign, the players who didn't care would have gone to the populated campaign.

Also, I'm amused that we're assuming that players would only jump to support the losing sides. Historically, its more likely that most players swap to the winning side for the better rewards, which only leads to more lopsided victories.

I don’t think it’s about players not reading. You’re absolutely right about choosing populated campaigns, and I would add name/list location recognition. If everyone is used to the first option being the main populated one they’re going to keep clicking it regardless of faction lock. I doubt the majority of players were even aware of the faction lock changes when they first entered that campaign after patch day, it’s just routine to click that one, and others will follow because there are players to fight against.

If the faction lock was moved to any other campaign down the list, I think it is extremely unlikely that a majority of players would transfer for “alliance loyalty”. It’s not like the options further down the list have seen much bump from from “alliance hoppers”, they’re still in the top campaign, just unhappy about it. Most players would still click the first option like they’ve done for the last several years, it would remain high pop, and others would follow. I guess there’s really only one way to find out for sure, just a prediction.

VaranisArano · January 2021

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

barshemm wrote: »

Then put the faction lock one second in the list.

I gotta love the argument that says that players can't read which option they picked and instead only picked because it was first. LOL. When Grayhost started, the players who wanted faction lock went there early, and the players who didn't care followed because it was populated. If players who didn't want faction lock had done the same to their campaign, the players who didn't care would have gone to the populated campaign.

Also, I'm amused that we're assuming that players would only jump to support the losing sides. Historically, its more likely that most players swap to the winning side for the better rewards, which only leads to more lopsided victories.

I don’t think it’s about players not reading. You’re absolutely right about choosing populated campaigns, and I would add name/list location recognition. If everyone is used to the first option being the main populated one they’re going to keep clicking it regardless of faction lock. I doubt the majority of players were even aware of the faction lock changes when they first entered that campaign after patch day, it’s just routine to click that one, and others will follow because there are players to fight against.

If the faction lock was moved to any other campaign down the list, I think it is extremely unlikely that a majority of players would transfer for “alliance loyalty”. It’s not like the options further down the list have seen much bump from from “alliance hoppers”, they’re still in the top campaign, just unhappy about it. Most players would still click the first option like they’ve done for the last several years, it would remain high pop, and others would follow. I guess there’s really only one way to find out for sure, just a prediction.

For what its worth, we did see this play out when ZOS reintroduced the non-faction-locked campaign. Very few players switched for no faction lock.

I do think it comes down to which one is the most populated campaign and, as I noted, Day 1 of the Harrowstorm patch, that was Gray Host in part because players like my guild who wanted faction loyalty helped make it populated as soon as the servers were up. If "Alliance-locked" had been low pop because people didn't want faction locked play then as more players and especially the primetime crowd logged on, many people would have looked at the Standard option. As it was, they saw that Alliance-locked had more of the action and piled in, making it a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Greasytengu · January 2021

Im all in favor of Faction locking up to a point. Locking for the full duration of a campaign is a bit excessive though.

The main complaint about unlocked campaigns were things like zone chat spying, siege flipping, scroll trolling, flipping the map one color then switching characters and flipping it back.

The main benefit of unlocked campaigns was the ability to switch to the weaker faction for campaign health and in searching for better fights. People who were a part of more than one factions pvp guild could run with them on their raid nights instead of having to pick. Lots of freedom!

I think they would have been able to get the best of both worlds by making the lock a timer, like 6 hours ish.

Kwoung · January 2021

Greasytengu wrote: »

Im all in favor of Faction locking up to a point. Locking for the full duration of a campaign is a bit excessive though.

The main complaint about unlocked campaigns were things like zone chat spying, siege flipping, scroll trolling, flipping the map one color then switching characters and flipping it back.

The main benefit of unlocked campaigns was the ability to switch to the weaker faction for campaign health and in searching for better fights. People who were a part of more than one factions pvp guild could run with them on their raid nights instead of having to pick. Lots of freedom!

I think they would have been able to get the best of both worlds by making the lock a timer, like 6 hours ish.

I agree, but would rather see it locked for 24 hours at least. Fighting next to someone, then against them 5 minutes later because the other alliances population spiked and now a bunch of your faction jumped over there compounding the issue, is just stupid. A lot of players do it, and inevitably everyone on the faction with no one left to fight the hoard that just sprung up just goes elsewhere (like IC), leaving a bunch of doors to be knocked. PVP is fun, even when a bit outnumbered, but 6v40 isn't a whole lot of fun and I have been on both sides of it.

Ranger209 · January 2021

There are servers without faction lock. Everyone has a choice.

Crash427 · January 2021

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

I can't believe after all these years people still care enough to want faction lock. The only real incentive for pvp is finding some good fights

Most people don't want good fights, they want the path of least resistance. Hence all the wardens in crimson.

Kwoung · January 2021

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

I can't believe after all these years people still care enough to want faction lock. The only real incentive for pvp is finding some good fights

I believe that sentiment is actually in the minority. Even for those that want good fights, they are generally after AP or Transmutes as a primary driver. Having good fights while achieving those goals makes it fun.

wolfbone · January 2021

barshemm wrote: »

Currently stuck trying to log in after crashing, getting lobby error over and over.

Status is AD and DC are at Kingscrest gating EP. The two factions are in the keep not fighting each other. EP already lost their scrolls, afaik yesterday and never got them back.

At this point the entire 3 faction war is 2 factions bullying the last. They are doing it so hard they are crashing the server. Every one says "spread out" but when you have 2 factions actively gating the third, how is there any spreading out?

I think this is a perfect case of why you need to stop faction lock. It's the only way to allow the player base to police itself. At this point EP players could log into DC and AD alts and attack the other factions to spread out the combat as intended.

no.
faction lock helped deal with faction spies who'd leak the info to their real alliance, and just hop on that to reap the rewards them self. yes, it's annoying how 2 factions target the last, but it was also annoying how we had faction spies.

relentless_turnip · January 2021

I am a bit old fashioned in this regard and very much buy into the loyalty of choosing your side and sticking to it. I preferred when no cp was locked and the majority in zone chat where loyalists. Making a pug at times is a dubious proposition for most leaders.

I feel the op describes an ideal scenario where if one side is losing they jump on another faction to push the third. I think largely the opposite is true where if a faction is losing in an unlocked campaign people just jump on the winning faction.

I appreciate this isn't everyone's preference, so I think having the option as it stands at the moment is the fairest thing.

techyeshic · January 2021

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

I can't believe after all these years people still care enough to want faction lock. The only real incentive for pvp is finding some good fights

I'm trying to figure out the disconnect from faction lock to wanting good fights. In unlocked; it seems like more players jump on the faction winning at the time and that can be any minute of any day. Same thing happens in locked as I suddenly have queues to get in as DC in Gray Host PCNA for the first time ever on a nightly basis, but that took a couple of months.

Joy_Division · January 2021

techyeshic wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

I can't believe after all these years people still care enough to want faction lock. The only real incentive for pvp is finding some good fights

I'm trying to figure out the disconnect from faction lock to wanting good fights. In unlocked; it seems like more players jump on the faction winning at the time and that can be any minute of any day. Same thing happens in locked as I suddenly have queues to get in as DC in Gray Host PCNA for the first time ever on a nightly basis, but that took a couple of months.

My guild plays PC NA no cp on AD. AD has emperor, hammer, scrolls, full pop lock whereas there is 2 bar DC and EP. There aren't going to any fights and it's either gate-camp or go to the CP campaign where AD just have their tri-keeps.

Half the group can't go to the CP campaign because of the locks. So instead of good fights, it's either logging out or pushing the scrolless factions to their gates.

Theignson · January 2021

techyeshic wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

I can't believe after all these years people still care enough to want faction lock. The only real incentive for pvp is finding some good fights

I'm trying to figure out the disconnect from faction lock to wanting good fights. In unlocked; it seems like more players jump on the faction winning at the time and that can be any minute of any day. Same thing happens in locked as I suddenly have queues to get in as DC in Gray Host PCNA for the first time ever on a nightly basis, but that took a couple of months.

No Queues on EP (GreyHost) for maybe 5, 6 months now.

Last night at 330 AM EST it was still DC poplocked, EP, AD 2 bars. Typical fight then is 15 EP slowly losing their keeps to 60+ DC

All these people claiming they want good outnumbered fights should switch from DC next camp

Ranger209 · January 2021

Joy_Division wrote: »

My guild plays PC NA no cp on AD. AD has emperor, hammer, scrolls, full pop lock whereas there is 2 bar DC and EP. There aren't going to any fights and it's either gate-camp or go to the CP campaign where AD just have their tri-keeps.

I must be misunderstanding something here @Joy_Division . No CP is unlocked. Anyone could log off of AD when that happens, and get "good fights" logging on one of the two undermanned factions as that is totally allowed on that server. What am I missing?

VaranisArano · January 2021

Ranger209 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

My guild plays PC NA no cp on AD. AD has emperor, hammer, scrolls, full pop lock whereas there is 2 bar DC and EP. There aren't going to any fights and it's either gate-camp or go to the CP campaign where AD just have their tri-keeps.

I must be misunderstanding something here Joy_Division . No CP is unlocked. Anyone could log off of AD when that happens, and get "good fights" logging on one of the two undermanned factions as that is totally allowed on that server. What am I missing?

If you want to play with your guild, then everyone in the guild must have PVP characters on those other factions in order to swap.

So individual players can fight for undermanned factions, but its a little harder when you want to play as a guild.

Ranger209 · January 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

Ranger209 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

My guild plays PC NA no cp on AD. AD has emperor, hammer, scrolls, full pop lock whereas there is 2 bar DC and EP. There aren't going to any fights and it's either gate-camp or go to the CP campaign where AD just have their tri-keeps.

I must be misunderstanding something here Joy_Division . No CP is unlocked. Anyone could log off of AD when that happens, and get "good fights" logging on one of the two undermanned factions as that is totally allowed on that server. What am I missing?

If you want to play with your guild, then everyone in the guild must have PVP characters on those other factions in order to swap.

So individual players can fight for undermanned factions, but its a little harder when you want to play as a guild.

Which may be the case for Joy and many of his guild members, and I guess I can see how that could be a thing in limited fashion. It goes to the deeper issue of those who want to end faction lock so they can swap to factions to get good fights when it is not even happening on the server that already allows for that to happen. Some people that are unaffiliated with guilds, or that are in guilds where the majority of their players have characters in multiple factions could in fact switch to even out populations. Very few, however, actually do. It just goes to show that this mindset (find good fight) is much more limited than the mindset of I want to swap factions to the winning side, or to the overpopulated side to have an easier time of things.

Starshadw · January 2021

Greasytengu wrote: »

Im all in favor of Faction locking up to a point. Locking for the full duration of a campaign is a bit excessive though.

The main complaint about unlocked campaigns were things like zone chat spying, siege flipping, scroll trolling, flipping the map one color then switching characters and flipping it back.

The main benefit of unlocked campaigns was the ability to switch to the weaker faction for campaign health and in searching for better fights. People who were a part of more than one factions pvp guild could run with them on their raid nights instead of having to pick. Lots of freedom!

I think they would have been able to get the best of both worlds by making the lock a timer, like 6 hours ish.

Except we rarely, if ever, saw folks switching to the weaker faction. In fact, what we saw most often was dogpiling - people switching to the faction that was already dominant.

Combined with other toxic behavior (I literally watched players who were DC mains switch to AD characters to run AD scrolls up into DC territory and drop them off for their buddies to seat in DC keeps), faction lock at least mitigates SOME of the bad behavior from certain players. It's not perfect, but it's better than nothing.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · January 2021

Theignson wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

I can't believe after all these years people still care enough to want faction lock. The only real incentive for pvp is finding some good fights

I'm trying to figure out the disconnect from faction lock to wanting good fights. In unlocked; it seems like more players jump on the faction winning at the time and that can be any minute of any day. Same thing happens in locked as I suddenly have queues to get in as DC in Gray Host PCNA for the first time ever on a nightly basis, but that took a couple of months.

No Queues on EP (GreyHost) for maybe 5, 6 months now.

This isn't true, when we left the queue was regularly 40+ on every night of the week, on the contrary DC only started having a queue this week. EP are just sulking because they can no longer cap an empty map.

techyeshic · January 2021

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

I can't believe after all these years people still care enough to want faction lock. The only real incentive for pvp is finding some good fights

I'm trying to figure out the disconnect from faction lock to wanting good fights. In unlocked; it seems like more players jump on the faction winning at the time and that can be any minute of any day. Same thing happens in locked as I suddenly have queues to get in as DC in Gray Host PCNA for the first time ever on a nightly basis, but that took a couple of months.

No Queues on EP (GreyHost) for maybe 5, 6 months now.

This isn't true, when we left the queue was regularly 40+ on every night of the week, on the contrary DC only started having a queue this week. EP are just sulking because they can no longer cap an empty map.

@Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO id be curious if you see familiar faces the past week or so when it's looked obvious DC is going to win. Seen the queue. Seen people standing around while we fight for a keep and start repairing as about the only thing if note lately. Are rewards that much better for 1st when people have to be pretty low on the leaderboards? I'm wondering if they followed the coat tails.

Theignson · January 2021

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

I can't believe after all these years people still care enough to want faction lock. The only real incentive for pvp is finding some good fights

I'm trying to figure out the disconnect from faction lock to wanting good fights. In unlocked; it seems like more players jump on the faction winning at the time and that can be any minute of any day. Same thing happens in locked as I suddenly have queues to get in as DC in Gray Host PCNA for the first time ever on a nightly basis, but that took a couple of months.

No Queues on EP (GreyHost) for maybe 5, 6 months now.

This isn't true, when we left the queue was regularly 40+ on every night of the week, on the contrary DC only started having a queue this week. EP are just sulking because they can no longer cap an empty map.

It is true, that since all the EP left (including Drac0) there have been no queues. I don't know when you left, 4 months, 5 months (a trivial difference from what I said above )? Obviously you haven't been around to see it. Most nights it is the poplocked DC zerg gating the empty map these days. Of course this is later PST, after you guys play. I moved to West coast so I don't know what happens in EST prime time anymore. Hard to believe, though that Dracarys is finding good fights, which supposedly that is all you want to do?
Move back to EP and you will have no queues and your fill of outnumbered fights to enjoy.

Theignson · January 2021

techyeshic wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

I can't believe after all these years people still care enough to want faction lock. The only real incentive for pvp is finding some good fights

I'm trying to figure out the disconnect from faction lock to wanting good fights. In unlocked; it seems like more players jump on the faction winning at the time and that can be any minute of any day. Same thing happens in locked as I suddenly have queues to get in as DC in Gray Host PCNA for the first time ever on a nightly basis, but that took a couple of months.

No Queues on EP (GreyHost) for maybe 5, 6 months now.

This isn't true, when we left the queue was regularly 40+ on every night of the week, on the contrary DC only started having a queue this week. EP are just sulking because they can no longer cap an empty map.

@Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO id be curious if you see familiar faces the past week or so when it's looked obvious DC is going to win. Seen the queue. Seen people standing around while we fight for a keep and start repairing as about the only thing if note lately. Are rewards that much better for 1st when people have to be pretty low on the leaderboards? I'm wondering if they followed the coat tails.

The huge 3:00 AM EST DC zergs, poplocked when AD and EP 2 bars, suggests to me that the old AD nightcappers all moved to DC to reap the huge benefits of 1st place

Joy_Division · January 2021

Ranger209 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

My guild plays PC NA no cp on AD. AD has emperor, hammer, scrolls, full pop lock whereas there is 2 bar DC and EP. There aren't going to any fights and it's either gate-camp or go to the CP campaign where AD just have their tri-keeps.

I must be misunderstanding something here @Joy_Division . No CP is unlocked. Anyone could log off of AD when that happens, and get "good fights" logging on one of the two undermanned factions as that is totally allowed on that server. What am I missing?

We are an AD guild and many of us don't have PvP ready specs on other Alliances because the locks are there in the first place. Besides, how much flak do you think we'd get from all those faction loyalists if we logged onto opposing alliances and fought against the very campaign that they (and we) are trying to win? It would be better for everyone involved if we went to a different campaign and stayed in the same Alliance.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · January 2021

Theignson wrote: »

It is true, that since all the EP left (including Drac) there have been no queues. I don't know when you left, 4 months, 5 months (a trivial difference from what I said above )? Obviously you haven't been around to see it. Most nights it is the poplocked DC zerg gating the empty map these days. Of course this is later PST, after you guys play. I moved to West coast so I don't know what happens in EST prime time anymore. Hard to believe, though that Dracarys is finding good fights, which supposedly that is all you want to do?
Move back to EP and you will have no queues and your fill of outnumbered fights to enjoy.

You can check out our latest video and a few more coming soon for the fight's we've been having

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kraP49I64tk

Theignson · January 2021

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

It is true, that since all the EP left (including Drac) there have been no queues. I don't know when you left, 4 months, 5 months (a trivial difference from what I said above )? Obviously you haven't been around to see it. Most nights it is the poplocked DC zerg gating the empty map these days. Of course this is later PST, after you guys play. I moved to West coast so I don't know what happens in EST prime time anymore. Hard to believe, though that Dracarys is finding good fights, which supposedly that is all you want to do?
Move back to EP and you will have no queues and your fill of outnumbered fights to enjoy.

You can check out our latest video and a few more coming soon for the fight's we've been having
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kraP49I64tk

Holy Lagfest! Does your group suffer from the same insane lag we experience when you or other ballgroups are running? One advantage of playing later PST is abilities actually work and not as much lag stun. This is balanced against running 2 bars vs. poplocked DC zergs. I will try to log on EST primetime and see if is ever poplocked these days.

Looks like DC will win this campaign by 22,000 points more than AD and 13,000 more than EP. Balanced!

techyeshic · January 2021

Proof that people move for the win rather than the fight: DC queues are ridiculous now.

Never had a queue outside of weekends. DC wins one. Start getting small queues that grow to moderate queues (10-30) weeknights near the end of a second campaign with the win. Now early in the campaign after the 2nd win, 90+ queue on a freaking weeknight. FTMFL

I don't think it matters where you go, this will ultimately be the ending; but whats AD look like right now? (kidding before my guild PvP leader kills me lol)

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · January 2021

Theignson wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

It is true, that since all the EP left (including Drac) there have been no queues. I don't know when you left, 4 months, 5 months (a trivial difference from what I said above )? Obviously you haven't been around to see it. Most nights it is the poplocked DC zerg gating the empty map these days. Of course this is later PST, after you guys play. I moved to West coast so I don't know what happens in EST prime time anymore. Hard to believe, though that Dracarys is finding good fights, which supposedly that is all you want to do?
Move back to EP and you will have no queues and your fill of outnumbered fights to enjoy.

You can check out our latest video and a few more coming soon for the fight's we've been having
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kraP49I64tk

Holy Lagfest! Does your group suffer from the same insane lag we experience when you or other ballgroups are running? One advantage of playing later PST is abilities actually work and not as much lag stun. This is balanced against running 2 bars vs. poplocked DC zergs. I will try to log on EST primetime and see if is ever poplocked these days.

Looks like DC will win this campaign by 22,000 points more than AD and 13,000 more than EP. Balanced!

Game works fine for us but we run the https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info1976-TbagCounter.html addon which optimises performance.