Please Consider Officially Recognizing Light Attack Weaving

Krevad · January 2021

A key problem to transitioning to dungeon/trials stems from players not picking up the habit of pairing a light attack and skill at the same time every given second.
For long-time players, this is a huge struggle to get over habits developed over time that they have to unlearn to re-learn how to do so and it's not a good feeling to be feeling like you've played the game the wrong way all along.

This extends not to only DPS players but also 'healer mains' who comprise of people who have given up on the system and then not understand how the action queue in the game to actually fulfill heal checks that are pervasive in the game from keeping tanks up in vMoL, purging in vHoF, out-healing baneful in vCR and tombs in vSS Lokke HM, and vKA HM since they don't know how to make the most of every 1-second global cooldown and end up panicking to miss key skill casts when they flood the queue too much.

While I appreciate ZoS has recognized Light Attacks are here to stay in the form of supporting LA weaving through standardizing their animations, a lot of their effort is missed by players who don't even know it's a thing. The unresponsive LA animation bug that plagued us for awhile with the change also made people forget how good it is now that it works with the cooldown interval being more consistent for things like every third blastbones lining up more consistently.

If ZoS officially treats Light Attack Weaving as a mechanic and adds it as a part of the tutorials, this will allow future players to practice 'doing it right' from an earlier stage and throughout their leveling experience to make the transition much more smooth, without having to rework the system that pushes away veteran players who have come and stayed to love it.

Edit:
It doesn’t have to be something so jarring and feel forced; Voicing it simply in a context like ‘Combo your attacks by following up your attacks with a skill’ as part of the combat tutorial with a [mouse button] -> [skill button] prompt would make it quite natural along side reactionary prompts like bashing that’s already part of the tutorial. Something to make players aware that it’s different from the rest of the ES franchise would help make things start to feel more intuitive.

AcadianPaladin · January 2021

It is endorsed in at least one of the loading screen comments in game.

As far as new characters in tutorials, I'm not sure it is a great idea. It risks overloading and frustrating new players. Overloading in terms of too much to learn when they may still be trying to figure out how to equip/use a weapon and move. I think block and interrupt is probably about all that is appropriate at that stage. And frustrating because the brand new player has between 0 and 2 skills and very very little stam/mag. LA weaving in the tutorial is probably a bridge too far at that point.

That said, I endorse more 'training' be optionally available in the game. It has been requested before, but I'd love to see optional Undaunted training quests where some Undaunted NPCs join you and work with you on dd, tank, heal (one quest per role). Some would say that this is the job of player guilds but few would argue the success of that approach.

Krevad · January 2021

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

It is endorsed in at least one of the loading screen comments in game.

As far as new characters in tutorials, I'm not sure it is a great idea. It risks overloading and frustrating new players. Overloading in terms of too much to learn when they may still be trying to figure out how to equip/use a weapon and move. I think block and interrupt is probably about all that is appropriate at that stage. And frustrating because the brand new player has between 0 and 2 skills and very very little stam/mag. LA weaving in the tutorial is probably a bridge too far at that point.

That said, I endorse more 'training' be optionally available in the game. It has been requested before, but I'd love to see optional Undaunted training quests where some Undaunted NPCs join you and work with you on dd, tank, heal (one quest per role). Some would say that this is the job of player guilds but few would argue the success of that approach.

I don't think it would be that bad if done tactfully so it's not a jarring experience.
Part of the fight tutorial already teaches players on responsive things like bashing and iirc they refill your stamina so you can do it.

Something like 'Combo your attacks by following up immediately with a skill' would do wonders to let new players at least recognize it's a thing and begin doing it more intuitively even if they aren't forced to do it perfectly, then they can be given the option to practice some more to get better timing if they want.

AcadianPaladin · January 2021

@Krevad you do make a nice case for it and perhaps you're right. A brief intro could be helpful I suppose. I'd still like to see more optional training on weaving (and other things) available from the Undaunted.

Krevad · January 2021

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

@Krevad you do make a nice case for it and perhaps you're right. A brief intro could be helpful I suppose. I'd still like to see more optional training on weaving (and other things) available from the Undaunted.

For sure, things like damage and heal over time can also go there where they are introduced as later skills that players won’t see on the tutorial.

Unlike other MMOs where skills have their own cooldowns, ESO instead lets you spam skills provided you have enough resources but rewards players who can reapply DoTs well as they end and that’s another important lesson that should be made more obvious.

satanio · January 2021

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/524780/suggestion-la-weaving-training-solo-instance
To be brief, this post from @Olupajmibanan suggested a solo instance for LA training with rewards and metas that would give players an incentive to train LA weaving. That post was also caught by the class representatives and one of them, Glory, said:

Glory wrote: »

Hello,

Training arenas/better tutorials is something that the reps have been suggesting.

After the brief tutorial, you're kind of thrown into the wilderness without any additional options to practice/learn. It would be great if players who are hoping to do X/Y/Z better have some options in game (not just dummy parsing + the internet) to improve.

When asked if the devs were inclined for such a thing, he said that because of NDA, he cannot say.

And the second one from Cicisch:

cicisch wrote: »

Just to tag in with what Glory said, there has been discussion around how there should be more tutorials in the game. I've even had people come to me with community based ideas of getting more people to participate in teaching.

Your concept isn't bad - a solo instance tutorial area would be helpful for the game, and I'd be curious to see if it could expand to include adjustable resistances for pvp, etc.

At the end we can say, that the devs were already informed in 2020 about the need to make LA an official thing with proper tutorial. However, we cannot say if they were willing to embrace the idea. Since they work 2 to 3 big patches ahead, we might see something like this in 2021, but I honestly doubt it.

guarstompemoji · January 2021

Krevad wrote: »

A key problem to transitioning to dungeon/trials stems from players not picking up the habit of pairing a light attack and skill at the same time every given second.
For long-time players, this is a huge struggle to get over habits developed over time that they have to unlearn to re-learn how to do so and it's not a good feeling to be feeling like you've played the game the wrong way all along.

This extends not to only DPS players but also 'healer mains' who comprise of people who have given up on the system and then not understand how the action queue in the game to actually fulfill heal checks that are pervasive in the game from keeping tanks up in vMoL, purging in vHoF, out-healing baneful in vCR and tombs in vSS Lokke HM, and vKA HM since they don't know how to make the most of every 1-second global cooldown and end up panicking to miss key skill casts when they flood the queue too much.

While I appreciate ZoS has recognized Light Attacks are here to stay in the form of supporting LA weaving through standardizing their animations, a lot of their effort is missed by players who don't even know it's a thing. The unresponsive LA animation bug that plagued us for awhile with the change also made people forget how good it is now that it works with the cooldown interval being more consistent for things like every third blastbones lining up more consistently.

If ZoS officially treats Light Attack Weaving as a mechanic and adds it as a part of the tutorials, this will allow future players to practice 'doing it right' from an earlier stage and throughout their leveling experience to make the transition much more smooth, without having to rework the system that pushes away veteran players who have come and stayed to love it.

Very much this. I know players who are goal-oriented, and skilled at other games, but because this feature is hidden and the ways of finding teachers is nebulous and hazy, they do not end up learning it.

I'm unable to do trials and other content with my SO, and am hesitant to introduce new players to the game--because I would be tossing them at this gray cloud of uncertain knowledge.

It is easier to help someone to a tutorial, and a goal, than it is to wave your hand towards a nebulous cloud.

A fun teaching mechanic might be to treat the LA weaving similar to a rhythm game, and take a cue from games like Guitar Hero. With a little work, something like this could be so enjoyable that players leave it turned on throughout, because they're having such a good time. Or, turn it off, because you've learned it so well. Call it "blade weaving" or "spell weaving" and flavor the graphics accordingly.

adriant1978 · January 2021

Bring attention to it, fine, but for the love of Akatosh do not make "weave 10 light attacks" or some such an unskippable tutorial objective which blocks progress. Some players will never have the manual dexterity to be good at weaving but that's no reason to lock them out of the game when overland and quest content absolutely doesn't require it.

Krevad · January 2021

adriant1978 wrote: »

Bring attention to it, fine, but for the love of Akatosh do not make "weave 10 light attacks" or some such an unskippable tutorial objective which blocks progress. Some players will never have the manual dexterity to be good at weaving but that's no reason to lock them out of the game when overland and quest content absolutely doesn't require it.

Heck no, it should be in line with the rest of the tutorial if included for sure. Remember how bashing is introduced: you’re only forced to be able to do it once first then they rotate the different prompts to put it all together.

For weaving, it could be just one combo of a light attack followed by a skill with a big leeway up to 0.9 seconds to acknowledge it’s a thing you can do then have the player do it a few times again along with the other mechanics they walk you through.

Stahlor · January 2021

,,,maybe they should fix LA weaving first, since it's still not working properly.

Krevad · January 2021

Stahlor wrote: »

,,,maybe they should fix LA weaving first, since it's still not working properly.

My condolences to you on console. PC NA's been fine since the second fix, maybe they forgot to roll it out for you?

Ghanima_Atreides · January 2021

Maybe this would be more appropriate for a Vet Dungeon practice tutorial, because that's where light attack weaving becomes necessary as opposed to optional, but definitely NOT the first thing a new player is expected to perform as part of the tutorial.

I've been playing this game since beta and I still can't weave reliably with more than 1 skill (and even then not 100% of the time) so yeah.

GrumpyDuckling · January 2021

Krevad wrote: »

If ZoS officially treats Light Attack Weaving as a mechanic and adds it as a part of the tutorials, this will allow future players to practice 'doing it right'

This is where you lose me because I don't like the idea of Light Attack weaving being considered "doing it right."

Every DPS character I have plays the same with a different coat of paint-- alternate between slapping those skill buttons and that light attack button... it's just stale and I would like more variety. In a game where we have the potential for different gameplay styles, I don't like that we are heavily encouraged to all play the same way with Light Attack weaving. Sure, you can make heavy attack builds and try to mix it up, but most of the time Light Attack weaving is just so far ahead of everything else that you're only hurting your group if you aren't doing it.

Light Attack weaving is fine and has its place in the game, but I don't like that it's so important that you feel compelled to describe it as "doing it right" because to me that means we all play the same way.

Stahlor · January 2021

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

...we all play the same way.

That's how optimising works, doesn't it? Usually there is only one way to reach the most optimal result.

GrumpyDuckling · January 2021

Stahlor wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

...we all play the same way.

That's how optimising works, doesn't it? Usually there is only one way to reach the most optimal result.

Optimal isn't the concern. See the part where I say "...but most of the time Light Attack weaving is just so far ahead of everything else..."

Krevad · January 2021

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Krevad wrote: »

If ZoS officially treats Light Attack Weaving as a mechanic and adds it as a part of the tutorials, this will allow future players to practice 'doing it right'

This is where you lose me because I don't like the idea of Light Attack weaving being considered "doing it right."

Every DPS character I have plays the same with a different coat of paint-- alternate between slapping those skill buttons and that light attack button... it's just stale and I would like more variety. In a game where we have the potential for different gameplay styles, I don't like that we are heavily encouraged to all play the same way with Light Attack weaving. Sure, you can make heavy attack builds and try to mix it up, but most of the time Light Attack weaving is just so far ahead of everything else that you're only hurting your group if you aren't doing it.

Light Attack weaving is fine and has its place in the game, but I don't like that it's so important that you feel compelled to describe it as "doing it right" because to me that means we all play the same way.

I feel like this is more of a ‘play how you want’ vs ‘the best way to play issue’ but I will have to lean on the side of “let’s keep content challenging for those at the ceiling instead of making things easy enough for the floor since that’s what normal mode is for” for that.

Whether you like it or not however light attack weaving indeed stands as such a core mechanic that it in the context of performance how endgame challenges have been built around it, it really does lean towards being the ‘right way’ since if you were to fill a roster with people who are unable to do it, certain content becomes close to impossible to do. I don’t think you’d have much success using an alcast 1 bar heavy attack pet sorc build in vSS HM portals for example.

But even within the context of heavy attack builds, there’s only so many heavy attacks you can throw out before you oversustain and waste resources by not using them. Heavy attacking too much also eats into your DoT uptimes so you’d best fit light attacks in regardless.

So yeah, I’d otherwise agree with you on the other points you’ve raised. There aren’t enough power in the sets that try to shake things up and those other alternatives are indeed vastly inferior but I also feel they’re in a tough spot in being careful of impacts to pvp since heavy attacks are a bursty form of damage that’s desirable for killing there despite not dealing as much DPS over long periods in PvE situations.

Astrid · January 2021

It has been officially recognised. It’s on a tutorial on a load screen as someone mentioned it, we have sets like Zens and MK that actively require LA weaving (and are usually put on us “healer mains” you seem to have pointed out - this isn’t a healer issue per se, this is a lack of experience issue and can fall upon all 3 roles to animation cancel an ability for efficiency) Relequen and Siroria are applicable also for DDs who are LA weaving. You even have likes of Spectral bow which requires a LA stack x5 for the proc, Elemental weapon which requires a LA to apply. The list goes on. You simply cannot expect everyone to care.

I’ve met more casual players who think it should be completely scrapped in comparison to people like yourself and even myself who encourage it. People will play how they want, you just have to find the people with the same mindset.

Matchimus · January 2021

If the devs have created content knowing that weaving is required to complete, then it should be official.

So how much content is there that above average players could not complete without using weaving?

Krevad · January 2021

Astrid wrote: »

It has been officially recognised. It’s on a tutorial on a load screen as someone mentioned it, we have sets like Zens and MK that actively require LA weaving (and are usually put on us “healer mains” you seem to have pointed out - this isn’t a healer issue per se, this is a lack of experience issue and can fall upon all 3 roles to animation cancel an ability for efficiency) Relequen and Siroria are applicable also for DDs who are LA weaving. You even have likes of Spectral bow which requires a LA stack x5 for the proc, Elemental weapon which requires a LA to apply. The list goes on. You simply cannot expect everyone to care.

I’ve met more casual players who think it should be completely scrapped in comparison to people like yourself and even myself who encourage it. People will play how they want, you just have to find the people with the same mindset.

There will always be the few who take 'play how you want' the wrong way and are inflexible when it comes to making the most of how the game is designed and that's when we can respond with 'you can play how you want in that corner instead... outside of our group'. I think most would agree that it's just easier, effective, and more satisfying to meet 'the right people' halfway.

However, there are plenty of people who put in the effort that we wish to do well but don't really make it because they never picked it up during their level 1 to cp 300 experience unlike those who notice it right away and have developed poor parsing habits. It's not really fair that these people should have to go through a whole denial-acceptance grief cycle and relearn how to essentially play the game the right way. This is legitimately a confronting experience that forms an unnecessary barrier to end-game content. Gamers who picked it up from the get-go, on the other hand, have been doing it all along in their leveling experience and are pretty much trial-ready as they reach cp 300. It's almost like a silver-spoon with who could become 'the right people'.

Matchimus wrote: »

If the devs have created content knowing that weaving is required to complete, then it should be official.

So how much content is there that above average players could not complete without using weaving?

Above-average players do weave, their muscle memory just isn't to the perfect rhythm.
Pretty much all the vet DLC dungeons/HMs with some form of attrition/dps check mechanic would become unbearable to prolong.
For trial HMs, you'd be able to get away with it if the higher end can pull off the numbers to make the encounter not excruciatingly painful but you'd also likely not make it on the roster in the first place or at least the subsequent ones. A better indication though If you were to roster 8 DPSes who don't weave, you'd not clear any of the HMs since they all have some form of dps check.

Astrid · January 2021

Krevad wrote: »

Astrid wrote: »

It has been officially recognised. It’s on a tutorial on a load screen as someone mentioned it, we have sets like Zens and MK that actively require LA weaving (and are usually put on us “healer mains” you seem to have pointed out - this isn’t a healer issue per se, this is a lack of experience issue and can fall upon all 3 roles to animation cancel an ability for efficiency) Relequen and Siroria are applicable also for DDs who are LA weaving. You even have likes of Spectral bow which requires a LA stack x5 for the proc, Elemental weapon which requires a LA to apply. The list goes on. You simply cannot expect everyone to care.

I’ve met more casual players who think it should be completely scrapped in comparison to people like yourself and even myself who encourage it. People will play how they want, you just have to find the people with the same mindset.

There will always be the few who take 'play how you want' the wrong way and are inflexible when it comes to making the most of how the game is designed and that's when we can respond with 'you can play how you want in that corner instead... outside of our group'. I think most would agree that it's just easier, effective, and more satisfying to meet 'the right people' halfway.

However, there are plenty of people who put in the effort that we wish to do well but don't really make it because they never picked it up during their level 1 to cp 300 experience unlike those who notice it right away and have developed poor parsing habits. It's not really fair that these people should have to go through a whole denial-acceptance grief cycle and relearn how to essentially play the game the right way. This is legitimately a confronting experience that forms an unnecessary barrier to end-game content. Gamers who picked it up from the get-go, on the other hand, have been doing it all along in their leveling experience and are pretty much trial-ready as they reach cp 300. It's almost like a silver-spoon with who could become 'the right people'.

Sad but true, but it’s never too late to learn. Ive played since day one and I remember my encounter when LA weaving became prolific and I adapted fine, as did majority of other people. Actively talking to more experienced players and searching for online guides (which everyone should do tbh) from content creators will help a great deal for those who haven’t been here as long as I (or even you) have. It’s a shame ZoS don’t really explain as well as they do, but without bashing them - I don’t think anything really matters except the crown store at this point. Players can learn from players, a half-bothered tutorial on light attacking isnt going to help anyone imo. The tutorial is tragic enough as is for such a complex combat system.

As for the “play how you want crowd”, totally agree. Play however you wish, but if you're not willing to do what the rest of the group is doing, then you simply don’t join. It’s a game at the end of the day and if they’re not wanting to push dps/content and “just play” then so be it. A lot of people with that mindset, and even if they did introduce LA tutorials and stress animation cancelling - I don’t think that margin of people would care regardless because they’re either incapable or unwilling. It’s a nice idea, but the community is always gonna be divided even if they are shown the “correct” way.

James-Wayne · January 2021

As much as including light attack weaving in the tutorials is a good idea it still doesn't help me or the many many Aussies with high ping rates actually achieve decent DPS because the actions just don't register fast enough.

So with that in mind I would rather NOT having Light Attack Weaving a thing in ESO.

James-Wayne · January 2021

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Stahlor wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

...we all play the same way.

That's how optimising works, doesn't it? Usually there is only one way to reach the most optimal result.

Optimal isn't the concern. See the part where I say "...but most of the time Light Attack weaving is just so far ahead of everything else..."

I agree with this. I have said for a long long time the only reason we have such a big gap in DPS between players is because light attack damage does insane amounts now plus add the Empower buff in and 1/3 of your total damage is light attacks. If you cant light attack for whatever reason then you are instantly below the bar.

Nerf light attack damage, keep the weaving. Job done.

Krevad · January 2021

James-Wayne wrote: »

As much as including light attack weaving in the tutorials is a good idea it still doesn't help me or the many many Aussies with high ping rates actually achieve decent DPS because the actions just don't register fast enough.

So with that in mind I would rather NOT having Light Attack Weaving a thing in ESO.

I am aussie with a steady 240 ping and it's not held me back. The only time it's bad is when there's some wider issue with the game itself or they are messing with the lines.

High ping actually helps with weaving and achieving higher DPS since the game gives you more leeway; to reach optimal weaving speed it's easier for us if you look at 'global cooldown' trackers like Combat Metronome where the window to do the next combination is much wider compared to NA natives who have a hairline of time to weave properly. ESO is the one MMO where being aussie/oceanic doesn't impair your ability to DPS at all.

James-Wayne wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Stahlor wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

...we all play the same way.

That's how optimising works, doesn't it? Usually there is only one way to reach the most optimal result.

Optimal isn't the concern. See the part where I say "...but most of the time Light Attack weaving is just so far ahead of everything else..."

I agree with this. I have said for a long long time the only reason we have such a big gap in DPS between players is because light attack damage does insane amounts now plus add the Empower buff in and 1/3 of your total damage is light attacks. If you cant light attack for whatever reason then you are instantly below the bar.

Nerf light attack damage, keep the weaving. Job done.

The problem with that is for pvp where kills aren't based on LAs.