ESO+ "Random" Dungeon Rotation

Vignar_Giantsbane · January 2021

I understand you can beat the possible "DLC Random Dungeon" by simply queing up with a Lowbie Guildie (and most people do, including myself); but why are we punished for having ESO+? Yeah I get it, it's "Random" and you get what you get (which is a good point people make about garbage DPS or fake roles, it's a random que). But I just don't really understand why a company would punish their subscribers by making it harder to get their daily transmute crystals and possibly end up in Lair of Maarselok when I could cancel ESO+ and do the Base Game Dungeons (which take 10 - 15 minutes vs DLC Dungeons which take 40 - 60 Minutes or more if people don't know the mechs, even on normal).

This also contributes to your "Speed Runner" Vets in Normal Content problem. Why should they risk Vet Moon Hunter Keep or Lair of Maarselok which a large percentage of PUG Groups fail? Those Dungeons are tough for Casual Players on Normal; on Vet it's generally a fail for PUGS.

ALSO in regards to the DLC Dungeon in "Random" Que; what you're seeing happen is a large amount of players (especially Vets with more than 3 or 4 chars to run for Transmute Crystals); just drop the group when they get Frostvault or Moongrave; yeah they get a deserter penalty; but considering this happens almost every time you'd think it would make sense to stop forcing those DLC Random Que for ESO+; it's not just about the Deserter but it's a big waste of time to the people who wanted to run the dungeon especially if a (Real) Tank or Healer Drops because then they have to stay and wait and 75% of the time the Group just ends up disbanding anyway.

Maybe I'm just rambling but I really do think DLC Dungeons should be removed from "Random" Que or Separated. Yeah it would make the Que times even worse than what they already are (especially for DPS, and I get it since all my chars are DPS); but if you look at what ends up taking more time IMO it's people dropping group when they end up in a DLC Dungeon and having to wait for a new person to fill the spot.

Just my thoughts on what would improve the Group Finder for Casuals Especially; most more "serious" players have 3 - 4 Guilds they can run with.

Dagoth_Rac · January 2021

There is really no such thing as a "random queue". There is a "LFG queue".

Someone else may have specifically queued for Lair of Maarselok because they want gear from there. Or maybe they just want to do it. Or maybe they are just weird and like long dungeons. Or maybe they just like the look and layout of dungeon.

If you make random only work for base game dungeons, you just about completely hobble the ability of people who want to do a specific dungeon from getting a fill.

Hardly anyone queues for specific dungeons (other than pledges), so pulling from the random queue is how most specific dungeon requests get filled. You will pretty much never have 2 DPS, 1 tank, and 1 healer, all queue for the same DLC dungeon separately at the same time. For all intents and purposes, DLC dungeons will become pre-made groups only. I don't think ZOS wants that.

I guess ZOS could do something like, "If all 4 people who get grouped had chosen random, only give them base game dungeons." But guess what is still random? Whether you get grouped with 3 people who also chose random.

There is no way to guarantee that random will only give you a base game dungeon without making DLC dungeons impossible to queue for.

Vignar_Giantsbane · January 2021

Yeah that makes sense; I already have most of the gear I need from DLC Dungeons (most anyway); but I see your point.

Just feels like we're being punished for subscribing to ESO+ lol

I genuinely like the DLC Dungeons (March of Sacrifices has some DOPE fights/colors, same with Depths of Malatar); but only with Premade Groups (which of course you can easily form AND get the Random Bonus; and I do, often).

Like I said this was just my suggestion to having time wasted for folks because there are so many people that just drop group when they get DLC Dungeon as the Random and my thinking was, they're probably an ESO+ subscriber (or have the DLC unlocked, which they paid for) and it wastes time for both the deserter AND the group who now has to wait for a new person to fill the slot.

Lord_Hev · January 2021

Why do you even participate if it's just to sleep walk through content?

If you want to split ques up, here's how it goes then. Random daily norm: 1 - 3 crystals. Random Vet: 5 crystals. Random DLC Vet: 10 crystals. Work for the goodies. Maybe then can actually have quality pugs again instead of the people expecting a hand-out making those of us who enjoy dlc dungeon pugging actually get pugs that carry their weight and are willing to learn and enjoy new content.

Sleepwalk 15 minute dungeon runs are worth the amount of effort put into it.

rpa · January 2021

Find a lv 10, group w em, let em que to random normal. Worst that can happen you get some speedrunner in your fg/spindleclutch.

Quo solo and you get random. If that is too much risk of work and failure, do not que solo.

Faiza · January 2021

It's like clockwork each time one of my alts hits 45 their very next random normal is Unhallowed Grave lol

Larcomar · January 2021

This comes up about once a month on the forums. Yes, it's daft - people who subscribe are at a significant disadvantage compared to people who don't. That makes absolutely no commercial sense if a company actually wants people to, you know, buy their product.

No, it's not going to change - if they haven't done something about it by now, they're not going to, probably because as others have pointed out, most players wouldn't go anywhere near their "shiny new" (read long, boring and filled with silly mechanics) dlc dungeons.

There are a couple of pretty simple solutions though. The obvious one, as other's have pointed out, is to queue with a lowbie. It guarantees you a base game dungeon. I find that's easier said than done - at least in my guild, a lot of people's character rosters are full of max level alts and they're saving the lowbie's for the guild's baby pvp runs.

The easiest solution is simply to cancel ESO+. I did that back at the undaunted event and haven't looked back. I not only never have to run DLC dungeons, I never have to PUG. There are enough people wanting quick RNDs for transmutes in my guild that if I advertise a "DLC free / ESO+ free" RND run, I get groups instantly, and I sometimes run 6 back to back. I seem to suddenly be remarkably popular.

The question I would ask is whether you really need the subscription - is ESO+ actually giving you anything you really need? I mean, it's costing you £9 a month and annoying you enough to come here and post about it. If you want access the main zones you can buy those separately for less - it was like £10 for Greymoor in the recent sale. Or £18 for Greymoor + Morrowind, Summerset and Elsyweyr. They don't include amny DLC dungeons.

Then there's the crafting bag I suppose. I know people bang on about it and I thought losing it would be a big deal. But, tbh, I do writs on seven characters every day and I've not noticed not having it. The introduction of stickerbook means I've deconned most of the set pieces I was holding and have loads of space. And I always go to the bank after finishing writs to deposit surveys anyway. It's a few more clicks to stick the mats in the bank, that's all.

mobicera · January 2021

You can just do normal, and well if that's still to much effort for you, then I really don't know what to say....
Normal dlc aren't difficult at all, its only slightly longer than non dlc and still done in about 15 minutes.

I don't understand why you think you are punished by doing DLC content...
If you don't want to run dungeons pvp for your crystals...

Personally everytime I que up with some buddies for a random vet we grumble when we don't get a vdlc dungeon...

validifyedneb18_ESO · January 2021

Always invite a non eso+ newbie to carry when doing your random normal.

Joking (/actually what I have done at times) asside; yes it is a bit of a pain. There is a minimum level requirement for them which helps mostly filter out ungeared players atleast, but the main issue is the inability to solo combined with team based mechanics.

validifyedneb18_ESO · January 2021

mobicera wrote: »

You can just do normal, and well if that's still to much effort for you, then I really don't know what to say....

When pugs don't kill the healing spriggans in MHK, or don't stick together to kill the strangers when they cc. Don't stand on the runes on the 4th boss. Don't interrupt the 1shot on the 3rd boss.

In icereach when they don't interrupt the 1shot on the first boss.

In cradle when they kill (they have no health) the cc mobs rather than interrupt them on the 4th boss - Litterally killing their own teammate in the process.

When you have Noone to coordinate what rune to stand on with the fire boss in unhallowd graves.

There are plenty of places in dlc dungeons, on normal, where regardless of how good you are as soloing content, the dungeon is Litterally impossible without atleast 1 other competent player in the group.

AlnilamE · January 2021

Vignar_Giantsbane wrote: »

I understand you can beat the possible "DLC Random Dungeon" by simply queing up with a Lowbie Guildie (and most people do, including myself); but why are we punished for having ESO+? Yeah I get it, it's "Random" and you get what you get (which is a good point people make about garbage DPS or fake roles, it's a random que). But I just don't really understand why a company would punish their subscribers by making it harder to get their daily transmute crystals and possibly end up in Lair of Maarselok when I could cancel ESO+ and do the Base Game Dungeons (which take 10 - 15 minutes vs DLC Dungeons which take 40 - 60 Minutes or more if people don't know the mechs, even on normal).

This also contributes to your "Speed Runner" Vets in Normal Content problem. Why should they risk Vet Moon Hunter Keep or Lair of Maarselok which a large percentage of PUG Groups fail? Those Dungeons are tough for Casual Players on Normal; on Vet it's generally a fail for PUGS.

ALSO in regards to the DLC Dungeon in "Random" Que; what you're seeing happen is a large amount of players (especially Vets with more than 3 or 4 chars to run for Transmute Crystals); just drop the group when they get Frostvault or Moongrave; yeah they get a deserter penalty; but considering this happens almost every time you'd think it would make sense to stop forcing those DLC Random Que for ESO+; it's not just about the Deserter but it's a big waste of time to the people who wanted to run the dungeon especially if a (Real) Tank or Healer Drops because then they have to stay and wait and 75% of the time the Group just ends up disbanding anyway.

Maybe I'm just rambling but I really do think DLC Dungeons should be removed from "Random" Que or Separated. Yeah it would make the Que times even worse than what they already are (especially for DPS, and I get it since all my chars are DPS); but if you look at what ends up taking more time IMO it's people dropping group when they end up in a DLC Dungeon and having to wait for a new person to fill the spot.

Just my thoughts on what would improve the Group Finder for Casuals Especially; most more "serious" players have 3 - 4 Guilds they can run with.

So if I run a random and am willing to take whatever dungeon I get, because that's the deal, I don't get the same courtesy when I need to run a specific dungeon for gear/pledge/skill point?

Is that what you are saying?

The reason why you get so many DLC dungeons is because there are people who need to run them and are queueing specifically for them. The reason there is a reward for the "random" dungeon is so that those people can get their groups filled.

idk · January 2021

Vignar_Giantsbane wrote: »

But I just don't really understand why a company would punish their subscriber

Zos is not punishing anyone. The idea of the random daily is to increase the chance there will be players available to fill a group with a player or players queue for any specific dungeon.

As such, the rewards of XP and crystals are provided to encourage players to take the risk of a random dungeon. That risk is our choice which means it cannot be a punishment.

Vevvev · January 2021

idk wrote: »

Vignar_Giantsbane wrote: »

But I just don't really understand why a company would punish their subscriber

Zos is not punishing anyone. The idea of the random daily is to increase the chance there will be players available to fill a group with a player or players queue for any specific dungeon.

As such, the rewards of XP and crystals are provided to encourage players to take the risk of a random dungeon. That risk is our choice which means it cannot be a punishment.

^ this.

I honestly enjoy the fact all the dungeons are on the random queue as a subscriber because I hate waiting. I typically queue as a healer with a ton of group DPS buffs to make the random dungeon go by just a little faster than usual. Honestly the only content I bring my A-game to is when I queue for random veteran dungeons because there's the chance of a vet DLC dungeon. Normal DLC dungeons don't really scare me all that much.

MrBrownstone · January 2021

The only punishment is getting a braindead base game dungeon in the random queue. I always hope for a dlc when queueing because, you know, yeah I want the crystals but I also want to play the game sometimes, don't you?

If you're only planning to do the easiest content why do you even care about crystals anyway, you don't even need to build for it. When I get a base game dungeon, I just close my eyes and get my crystals in 10 minutes. When I get a dlc dungeon, I get my crystals AND also actually play the game, because 10 crystals is not the reason I'm playing the game, I want to play my characters that I've worked hard on, I mean what is the point of buying a plane if you're never going to fly it?

N00BxV1 · January 2021

The rewards should at least scale by length and difficulty of dungeon. It makes no sense to do a random and get FG1 which can be completed in less than 5 minutes versus a DLC dungeon that could take anywhere up to an hour, but get the same reward upon completion.

If only I could just cancel my ESO+ and just be done with random DLCs... Unfortunately, I've always purchased the DLC as well as subscribing so that isn't an option. *** me for trying to support the game.

joerginger · January 2021

N00BxV1 wrote: »

The rewards should at least scale by length and difficulty of dungeon. It makes no sense to do a random and get FG1 which can be completed in less than 5 minutes versus a DLC dungeon that could take anywhere up to an hour, but get the same reward upon completion.

If only I could just cancel my ESO+ and just be done with random DLCs... Unfortunately, I've always purchased the DLC as well as subscribing so that isn't an option. *** me for trying to support the game.

Unfortunately I made exactly the same mistake - I bought all the DLCs to keep the "full game" when I will eventually stop having ESO+. That was a foolish mistake and is a reason why I completely stopped trying random dungeons.

Up to the last year I had done all dungeons at least once, but even that stopped after a failed attempt at doing Unhallowed Grave with the group I occasionally run a dungeon with. For some reason the rune mechanic didn't work properly and we gave up and never tried again. The Q3 DLC dungeons have been completely untouched and will most likely continue to be so in the forseeable future.

Magdalina · January 2021

Nope. Randoms are randoms. And yes, there currently is a higher chance of getting a dlc dungeon than a non-dlc one (leaving aside the part where someone may have queued for specific dungeon, thus skewing the chances). But that's what random is, and that's why it awards whole 10 crystals. If they were to split the queue, they'd have to up the reward for dlc dungeons to provide bigger incentive to do them, and then we'd again have people queueing for random dlc for the reward and complaining it's too hard.

Tbh I don't understand the complaints about dlc dungeons being 'unbeatable'. I'm not talking about some l33t hardcore groups, I pug them on vet all the time and about 60% of the time we manage to complete them. Sure it might take some time and you may need to kick someone/watch someone ragequit and call for a replacement, but unless you're hellbent on HM, it's far from being impossible. All you need is some semblance of coherent build (like, 20k+ dps as a dps maybe) and some willingness to learn. And that's on vet again, I'm not sure how you could fail it on normal. I mean you probably could, but that's quite an achievement. It's not about being l33t, it's about how people should stop regarding them as some unimagineable horror and actually give them a try. I've pulled through with way subpar pugs who were simply willing to listen and learn.

The idea of random is that you should stop expecting Spindle 1 every time. You won't get it, and as more dungeons come out, chances of you getting it are even lower. Either embrace the dlcs or stop running randoms

Everest_Lionheart · January 2021

It’s not that I don’t mind DLC but when I queue for randoms I would prefer to get a quick an easy dungeon from time to time. I get days where I try to run through 4 toons for randoms and end up with MoS, Unhallowed, MGF and Lair of maarselok. There are 24 base game dungeons and 18 DLC. For me I’m in a base game random dungeon probably less than 50% of the time. Now not all DLC are long necessarily but can get annoyingly long when you have to constantly queue over and over again for another player. Throw that time on top of the crazy long queues you often get as a DD and you can sometimes run 40 min plus on a random normal for 10 transmutes. Go through that 4 times in the same day and you’ll just stop queuing for anything.

idk · January 2021

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

It’s not that I don’t mind DLC but when I queue for randoms I would prefer to get a quick an easy dungeon from time to time. I get days where I try to run through 4 toons for randoms and end up with MoS, Unhallowed, MGF and Lair of maarselok. There are 24 base game dungeons and 18 DLC. For me I’m in a base game random dungeon probably less than 50% of the time. Now not all DLC are long necessarily but can get annoyingly long when you have to constantly queue over and over again for another player. Throw that time on top of the crazy long queues you often get as a DD and you can sometimes run 40 min plus on a random normal for 10 transmutes. Go through that 4 times in the same day and you’ll just stop queuing for anything.

Zos encourages the "random" dungeon to help ensure people who queue for a specific dungeon have a greater chance of getting a group. As such you could very well be filling in for a specific dungeon. If it was not for this Zos would have no reason to encourage or even offer a reward for doing a random dungeon.

Anotherone773 · January 2021

There definitely needs to be separation between earlier dungeons and later dungeons. Later dungeons are more like mini raids with raid mechanics on normal. Yes you can skip a lot of mechanics by just dpsing things down fast but that actually leads to toxic environments where some players become toxic if they cant do speed runs or have to deal mechanics that can avoided if everyone would just do another 10k dps.

Dungeons need to be designed for the way that the general player base does them. They also need to be able to done in 30-45 min max by a group of average casual players. Doing a DLC with average players and it taking 2 hours because of mechanics and because it is excessively long, is just to long.

Maybe make mini-raids for people that want to do longer content with harder mechanics and hard DPS checks. Maybe a 6 man mini raid that use a tank, heals, 3 DPS slots and 1 any role slot. It could be part of the LFG tool and sort of a bridge between dungeons and raids. Rather than just making all later dungeons ridiculously hard and long.

I haven't done any dungeons released since scalecaller because i cant be bothered trying to learn all the mechanics or doing a an hour long dungeon.

AinSoph · January 2021

Literally, just put an opt-in/out box on random DLC's and this saves all the unnecessary time spent on the longer DLC dungeons.

zvavi · January 2021

AinSoph wrote: »

Literally, just put an opt-in/out box on random DLC's and this saves all the unnecessary time spent on the longer DLC dungeons.

only if u put an opt-in/out box on non dlc dungeons as well. and scale rewards on difficulty of the dungeon you get in the end (if u get a dlc, double transmutes)

mobicera · January 2021

zvavi wrote: »

AinSoph wrote: »

Literally, just put an opt-in/out box on random DLC's and this saves all the unnecessary time spent on the longer DLC dungeons.

only if u put an opt-in/out box on non dlc dungeons as well. and scale rewards on difficulty of the dungeon you get in the end (if u get a dlc, double transmutes)

I like this, prevents me from ever getting those base game dungeons "yawn" and get a little more crystals to boot.
Win win to me as I very rarely pug.
However it still is pretty unlikely as random finder with pugs as has been stated is more of a way to incentivize people to fill spots in groups for all dungeons rather than just the easy crystal farm.
So reducing the que size for dlc paid content probably will not happen.

Starlock · January 2021

Anotherone773 wrote: »

I haven't done any dungeons released since scalecaller because i cant be bothered trying to learn all the mechanics or doing a an hour long dungeon.

The newer dungeons in general are more mechanics-intensive. On the one hand, I appreciate that; it makes these dungeons a lot more interesting and fun. Their design aesthetic is worlds above the base game dungeons. And, if we could reliably experience the story of them, they have more interesting stories as well. There's a lot about these dungeons that are amazing and I really appreciate the design work that went into them.

That's about where my appreciation of them ends. They are rough on pickup groups, difficult to learn without consulting external sources, and often take longer to finish. Combined with the new set collections system and the inability to earn transmute crystals from other gameplay activities and there's a strong incentive to not subscribe to avoid DLC dungeons in the random queue. This is definitely a factor as I am weighing renewing a year sub and it's strongly pushing me in the "don't bother" direction.

idk · January 2021

AinSoph wrote: »

Literally, just put an opt-in/out box on random DLC's and this saves all the unnecessary time spent on the longer DLC dungeons.

@AinSoph I have suggested as much before. Offer a gold level reward for those who opt-in for the DLC dungeons. Obviously, that reward would scale based on how many DLC dungeons a player has access to. It would be a win/win situation.

zvavi · January 2021

idk wrote: »

AinSoph wrote: »

Literally, just put an opt-in/out box on random DLC's and this saves all the unnecessary time spent on the longer DLC dungeons.

I have suggested as much before. Offer a gold level reward for those who opt-in for the DLC dungeons. Obviously, that reward would scale based on how many DLC dungeons a player has access to. It would be a win/win situation.

Reward has to be depending on the dungeon you get. If they opt in dlc dungeons, but then exit if they get one to queue again on another character, it will be bad. So double reward should be given only on a dlc dungeon completion.

idk · January 2021

zvavi wrote: »

idk wrote: »

AinSoph wrote: »

Literally, just put an opt-in/out box on random DLC's and this saves all the unnecessary time spent on the longer DLC dungeons.

I have suggested as much before. Offer a gold level reward for those who opt-in for the DLC dungeons. Obviously, that reward would scale based on how many DLC dungeons a player has access to. It would be a win/win situation.

Reward has to be depending on the dungeon you get. If they opt in dlc dungeons, but then exit if they get one to queue again on another character, it will be bad. So double reward should be given only on a dlc dungeon completion.

No. It would be for opting in for the DLC and called based on how many DLC dungeons they have access to.

Some people already drop and queue on a different character when they get a dungeon they do not want to do. There would be no difference.

Otherwise, deal with it how it is now.

zvavi · January 2021

idk wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

idk wrote: »

AinSoph wrote: »

Literally, just put an opt-in/out box on random DLC's and this saves all the unnecessary time spent on the longer DLC dungeons.

I have suggested as much before. Offer a gold level reward for those who opt-in for the DLC dungeons. Obviously, that reward would scale based on how many DLC dungeons a player has access to. It would be a win/win situation.

Reward has to be depending on the dungeon you get. If they opt in dlc dungeons, but then exit if they get one to queue again on another character, it will be bad. So double reward should be given only on a dlc dungeon completion.

No. It would be for opting in for the DLC and called based on how many DLC dungeons they have access to.

Some people already drop and queue on a different character when they get a dungeon they do not want to do. There would be no difference.

Otherwise, deal with it how it is now.

They do. And giving extra rewards for specifically dlc, will be to lower the amount it happens.

idk · January 2021

zvavi wrote: »

idk wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

idk wrote: »

AinSoph wrote: »

Literally, just put an opt-in/out box on random DLC's and this saves all the unnecessary time spent on the longer DLC dungeons.

I have suggested as much before. Offer a gold level reward for those who opt-in for the DLC dungeons. Obviously, that reward would scale based on how many DLC dungeons a player has access to. It would be a win/win situation.

Reward has to be depending on the dungeon you get. If they opt in dlc dungeons, but then exit if they get one to queue again on another character, it will be bad. So double reward should be given only on a dlc dungeon completion.

No. It would be for opting in for the DLC and called based on how many DLC dungeons they have access to.

Some people already drop and queue on a different character when they get a dungeon they do not want to do. There would be no difference.

Otherwise, deal with it how it is now.

They do. And giving extra rewards for specifically dlc, will be to lower the amount it happens.

Not really. People would queue until they get the dungeon they want to deal with. As such it would be pointless to have a DLC queue bonus.

zvavi · January 2021

idk wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

idk wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

idk wrote: »

AinSoph wrote: »

Literally, just put an opt-in/out box on random DLC's and this saves all the unnecessary time spent on the longer DLC dungeons.

I have suggested as much before. Offer a gold level reward for those who opt-in for the DLC dungeons. Obviously, that reward would scale based on how many DLC dungeons a player has access to. It would be a win/win situation.

Reward has to be depending on the dungeon you get. If they opt in dlc dungeons, but then exit if they get one to queue again on another character, it will be bad. So double reward should be given only on a dlc dungeon completion.

No. It would be for opting in for the DLC and called based on how many DLC dungeons they have access to.

Some people already drop and queue on a different character when they get a dungeon they do not want to do. There would be no difference.

Otherwise, deal with it how it is now.

They do. And giving extra rewards for specifically dlc, will be to lower the amount it happens.

Not really. People would queue until they get the dungeon they want to deal with. As such it would be pointless to have a DLC queue bonus.

With 12 dungeons that they don't want out of almost 40 it is easier to reroll, while for 12 dungeons they don't want Vs 18 dungeons chances are much higher, so they much less likely to do it because relogging is also wasting time.

Starlight_Whisper · January 2021

Best answer is go to starting zone and queue up