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High Elf passives seem a bit underwhelming compared to other races.
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Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »StarOfElyon wrote: »I do wonder why the title suggests the OP is about the high elf passives (plural) yet only talks about half of one passive. That is not even a passive, it is half of one and ignores the rest.
It's poorly worded but what I'm trying to say is that overall the passive feel less loaded than some other race's passive. I don't think spell damage and 2k magicka are enough to make them on par with Orc and Dunmer.
The Khajiit should be brought up too. It looks like ZOS tried to balance "stat density" for them but their bonuses are pretty low, in my opinion.
In my opinion, the entire Dominion has inferior passives. It shows every time I look at the Cyrodil map.
Khajiit must be a conspiracy. Every stamina nightblade in pvp is a Khajiit. There is a reason for that, because Khajiit is the contrary of bad and has its place and buffing them would be insane.
That makes sense in PVP, where sneaking and all 3 resources matter. In PVE Khajiit are definitely underpowered. 825 of health, Magicka and Stamina is far weaker than the 2000 Magicka or 2000 Stamina that most races have. Dunmer is a great example of how splitting resources should be handled, they get 1875 Stamina + 1875 Magicka, which ends up pretty well balanced with 2000 of a single stat because off-stat is so much less useful. The same goes for recovery, Bosmer’s 258 Stam Recovery is much better than Khajiit’s 85 bi-stat recovery and the worthless 100 health recovery. On top of all these shortcomings, Khajiit’s 10% crit damage results in lower DPS than the 258 Weapon/Spell Damage other races receive, even on high-crit builds. This should be at least 12% crit damage.
Not all races can be equal in all scenarios. Some races are clearly modeled around specific roles or scenarios and Khajiit has that in pvp and should not be touched at all.
They have more total stats than most races and 10% crazy crit damage. Khajiit are really not in need of anything just because they are not the number 1 damage dealer.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.
My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos4 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »StarOfElyon wrote: »I do wonder why the title suggests the OP is about the high elf passives (plural) yet only talks about half of one passive. That is not even a passive, it is half of one and ignores the rest.
It's poorly worded but what I'm trying to say is that overall the passive feel less loaded than some other race's passive. I don't think spell damage and 2k magicka are enough to make them on par with Orc and Dunmer.
The Khajiit should be brought up too. It looks like ZOS tried to balance "stat density" for them but their bonuses are pretty low, in my opinion.
In my opinion, the entire Dominion has inferior passives. It shows every time I look at the Cyrodil map.
Khajiit must be a conspiracy. Every stamina nightblade in pvp is a Khajiit. There is a reason for that, because Khajiit is the contrary of bad and has its place and buffing them would be insane.
That makes sense in PVP, where sneaking and all 3 resources matter. In PVE Khajiit are definitely underpowered. 825 of health, Magicka and Stamina is far weaker than the 2000 Magicka or 2000 Stamina that most races have. Dunmer is a great example of how splitting resources should be handled, they get 1875 Stamina + 1875 Magicka, which ends up pretty well balanced with 2000 of a single stat because off-stat is so much less useful. The same goes for recovery, Bosmer’s 258 Stam Recovery is much better than Khajiit’s 85 bi-stat recovery and the worthless 100 health recovery. On top of all these shortcomings, Khajiit’s 10% crit damage results in lower DPS than the 258 Weapon/Spell Damage other races receive, even on high-crit builds. This should be at least 12% crit damage.
Not all races can be equal in all scenarios. Some races are clearly modeled around specific roles or scenarios and Khajiit has that in pvp and should not be touched at all.
They have more total stats than most races and 10% crazy crit damage. Khajiit are really not in need of anything just because they are not the number 1 damage dealer.
Not in all scenarios, but Khajiit is a poor choice in literally every PVE role: tank, healer, Magicka DPS, and Stamina DPS (which they used to be pretty good at, but are now far behind Orc). And just because sneaking and tri-stat resources are useful in PVP doesn’t mean they’re the best choice there either. It’s worth noting that the 10% crit damage becomes zero for any of the popular Malacath builds.
Anyway, getting too far off topic. This is about Altmer passives, which are basically 2000 Max Mag, 258 Spell Damage, and some useless nonsense because every race needs 3. Feels incomplete. I’m sure the reason for this is to prevent Altmer from being too far ahead of Breton and Dunmer, but I don’t think that justifies removing their identity (which used to be high elemental damage, high Magicka pool, and slightly better Magicka sustain than most races). And racial stat density balance was clearly not an issue when designing the Stamina races, with Orc so far ahead of all the others (not that there’s anything wrong with Orc, I actually like their passives, just need to bring Bosmer and the others up to that level).0 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »StarOfElyon wrote: »I do wonder why the title suggests the OP is about the high elf passives (plural) yet only talks about half of one passive. That is not even a passive, it is half of one and ignores the rest.
It's poorly worded but what I'm trying to say is that overall the passive feel less loaded than some other race's passive. I don't think spell damage and 2k magicka are enough to make them on par with Orc and Dunmer.
The Khajiit should be brought up too. It looks like ZOS tried to balance "stat density" for them but their bonuses are pretty low, in my opinion.
In my opinion, the entire Dominion has inferior passives. It shows every time I look at the Cyrodil map.
Khajiit must be a conspiracy. Every stamina nightblade in pvp is a Khajiit. There is a reason for that, because Khajiit is the contrary of bad and has its place and buffing them would be insane.
That makes sense in PVP, where sneaking and all 3 resources matter. In PVE Khajiit are definitely underpowered. 825 of health, Magicka and Stamina is far weaker than the 2000 Magicka or 2000 Stamina that most races have. Dunmer is a great example of how splitting resources should be handled, they get 1875 Stamina + 1875 Magicka, which ends up pretty well balanced with 2000 of a single stat because off-stat is so much less useful. The same goes for recovery, Bosmer’s 258 Stam Recovery is much better than Khajiit’s 85 bi-stat recovery and the worthless 100 health recovery. On top of all these shortcomings, Khajiit’s 10% crit damage results in lower DPS than the 258 Weapon/Spell Damage other races receive, even on high-crit builds. This should be at least 12% crit damage.
Not all races can be equal in all scenarios. Some races are clearly modeled around specific roles or scenarios and Khajiit has that in pvp and should not be touched at all.
They have more total stats than most races and 10% crazy crit damage. Khajiit are really not in need of anything just because they are not the number 1 damage dealer.
Not in all scenarios, but Khajiit is a poor choice in literally every PVE role: tank, healer, Magicka DPS, and Stamina DPS (which they used to be pretty good at, but are now far behind Orc). And just because sneaking and tri-stat resources are useful in PVP doesn’t mean they’re the best choice there either. It’s worth noting that the 10% crit damage becomes zero for any of the popular Malacath builds.
Anyway, getting too far off topic. This is about Altmer passives, which are basically 2000 Max Mag, 258 Spell Damage, and some useless nonsense because every race needs 3. Feels incomplete. I’m sure the reason for this is to prevent Altmer from being too far ahead of Breton and Dunmer, but I don’t think that justifies removing their identity (which used to be high elemental damage, high Magicka pool, and slightly better Magicka sustain than most races). And racial stat density balance was clearly not an issue when designing the Stamina races, with Orc so far ahead of all the others (not that there’s anything wrong with Orc, I actually like their passives, just need to bring Bosmer and the others up to that level).
If you argue between pve and pvp, we can as well say, that the entire Altmer Spell Recharge passive is useless for pve, as it fullfills 0 use there. It is purely intended for pvp, where it is not even that great.
Khajiit is played by many in pvp. Now I would say, it is easily one of the races I encounter the most and I believe that is true, though they stand out with their tail, whereas there could be any race hidden behind a heavy armor.
It is true, I would not choose Khajiit for any pve role either, though they have a very strong field with pvp, which is more than some races can claim about themselves.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.
My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos1 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭StarOfElyon wrote: »I do wonder why the title suggests the OP is about the high elf passives (plural) yet only talks about half of one passive. That is not even a passive, it is half of one and ignores the rest.
It's poorly worded but what I'm trying to say is that overall the passive feel less loaded than some other race's passive. I don't think spell damage and 2k magicka are enough to make them on par with Orc and Dunmer.
The Khajiit should be brought up too. It looks like ZOS tried to balance "stat density" for them but their bonuses are pretty low, in my opinion.
In my opinion, the entire Dominion has inferior passives. It shows every time I look at the Cyrodil map.
Is high elf one of the top choices for PvE mag build ? - Yes
Is high elf one of the top choices for PvP mag build ? - Yes
Case closed.
Redguard on the other hand...10 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I am not seeing a particular problem with the Altmer racial passives.
Those desiring an additional buff should form up in the queue and wait their turn behind several far more downtrodden races (Redguard, Bosmer, Khajiit, Argonian).
Everyone wants their favorite race to be the best at whatever particular aspect of the game that they happen to play the most but not all races can be the best at all aspects of the game.5 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I don’t think anyone is saying that Altmer needs to be the best at everything. The problem is that there is a racial skill that has zero impact on 99% of gameplay, which only Bosmer can relate to (that dodge roll passive is the only one worse than Spell Recharge).
Their identity has been reduced to “Dunmer without the hybrid stats or fire resistance”. Previously Altmer had a slight sustain advantage (9% Magicka recovery) and excelled at Shock and Frost Damage (4% elemental damage, compared to Dunmer’s 7% specific to Fire).Edited by WrathOfInnos on December 20, 2020 11:24PM0 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭StarOfElyon wrote: »I do wonder why the title suggests the OP is about the high elf passives (plural) yet only talks about half of one passive. That is not even a passive, it is half of one and ignores the rest.
It's poorly worded but what I'm trying to say is that overall the passive feel less loaded than some other race's passive. I don't think spell damage and 2k magicka are enough to make them on par with Orc and Dunmer.
The Khajiit should be brought up too. It looks like ZOS tried to balance "stat density" for them but their bonuses are pretty low, in my opinion.
In my opinion, the entire Dominion has inferior passives. It shows every time I look at the Cyrodil map.
Is high elf one of the top choices for PvE mag build ? - Yes
Is high elf one of the top choices for PvP mag build ? - Yes
Case closed.
Redguard on the other hand...
Redguard is an interesting one. Obviously it’s going to have a hard time competing with Orc, but their stat density is actually pretty good. It’s just so focused on sustain, and Stamina sustain is in a good place so it’s not needed. Breton has a similar issue, except Magicka sustain is bad enough to keep it relevant, and they’re only competing with Altmer and Dunmer (far below Orc). Redguard seems to get worse with each update, as new class stamina skills are added. Their weapon cost reduction does nothing to help skills like crystal weapon, growing swarm and stone giant. Fewer weapon skills are used in general, with things like Poison Injection and Rending Slashes disappearing from most builds.
Anyway, I agree that Redguard needs something, but it’s a pretty different scenario than Altmer.Edited by WrathOfInnos on December 20, 2020 11:36PM0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭StarOfElyon wrote: »I do wonder why the title suggests the OP is about the high elf passives (plural) yet only talks about half of one passive. That is not even a passive, it is half of one and ignores the rest.
It's poorly worded but what I'm trying to say is that overall the passive feel less loaded than some other race's passive. I don't think spell damage and 2k magicka are enough to make them on par with Orc and Dunmer.
The Khajiit should be brought up too. It looks like ZOS tried to balance "stat density" for them but their bonuses are pretty low, in my opinion.
In my opinion, the entire Dominion has inferior passives. It shows every time I look at the Cyrodil map.
Is high elf one of the top choices for PvE mag build ? - Yes
Is high elf one of the top choices for PvP mag build ? - Yes
Case closed.
Redguard on the other hand...
I was thinking that using the high elf as a comparison was not going far with the solid damage passives they have. It is why I say, looking at a single passive, especially just part of one, in a vacuum does not paint an appropriate picture.0 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The trouble with people's interpretations of the balancing is that there is not 1:1 correspondence between the racial flavor skills.
Raw stat bonuses are the primary driver of balance and ZOS subsequently created (in their eyes) either stronger or weaker racial flavor bonuses to attempt to fill in the remaining gaps. In other words, races with stronger raw stat bonuses generally tend to receive weaker flavor bonuses and vice versa.
And since raw Spell or Weapon Damage is also the single most valuable stat in the game for damage purposes (outside of Critical Chance which no race has), races that receive that particular bonus (which is rare) tend to also receive weaker racial flavor bonuses.
Altmer do not need anything to be a top-tier damage race as they already have the max allowable stat budget for both their primary resource pool and their respective damage stat. Give them 1000 more Health and they are simply Magicka Orcs (who everyone already agrees are OP). Give them anything else that directly increases damage or that assists in primary resource sustain and you have either created an entirely new echelon of OP (above even Orcs) or else you have cheapened the value of Bretons (who trade away raw damage for sustain).
Traditional TES would have established Altmer as the premier damage race (encompassing both damage and sustain) BUT that power would have come with the traditional Altmer kiss-curse of being weaker to magic and elemental damage (embodied in ESO terms by a significant penalty to Spell Resistance) than all of the other races. However, since ESO does not do complexity particularly well, having any racial maluses is a non-starter and consequently there is nothing more that is able to balance out a further hypothetical increase to the Altmer power budget.Edited by YandereGirlfriend on December 21, 2020 12:54AM0 -
Everest_Lionheart✭✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »StarOfElyon wrote: »I do wonder why the title suggests the OP is about the high elf passives (plural) yet only talks about half of one passive. That is not even a passive, it is half of one and ignores the rest.
It's poorly worded but what I'm trying to say is that overall the passive feel less loaded than some other race's passive. I don't think spell damage and 2k magicka are enough to make them on par with Orc and Dunmer.
The Khajiit should be brought up too. It looks like ZOS tried to balance "stat density" for them but their bonuses are pretty low, in my opinion.
In my opinion, the entire Dominion has inferior passives. It shows every time I look at the Cyrodil map.
Khajiit must be a conspiracy. Every stamina nightblade in pvp is a Khajiit. There is a reason for that, because Khajiit is the contrary of bad and has its place and buffing them would be insane.
That makes sense in PVP, where sneaking and all 3 resources matter. In PVE Khajiit are definitely underpowered. 825 of health, Magicka and Stamina is far weaker than the 2000 Magicka or 2000 Stamina that most races have. Dunmer is a great example of how splitting resources should be handled, they get 1875 Stamina + 1875 Magicka, which ends up pretty well balanced with 2000 of a single stat because off-stat is so much less useful. The same goes for recovery, Bosmer’s 258 Stam Recovery is much better than Khajiit’s 85 bi-stat recovery and the worthless 100 health recovery. On top of all these shortcomings, Khajiit’s 10% crit damage results in lower DPS than the 258 Weapon/Spell Damage other races receive, even on high-crit builds. This should be at least 12% crit damage.
Not all races can be equal in all scenarios. Some races are clearly modeled around specific roles or scenarios and Khajiit has that in pvp and should not be touched at all.
They have more total stats than most races and 10% crazy crit damage. Khajiit are really not in need of anything just because they are not the number 1 damage dealer.
Not in all scenarios, but Khajiit is a poor choice in literally every PVE role: tank, healer, Magicka DPS, and Stamina DPS (which they used to be pretty good at, but are now far behind Orc). And just because sneaking and tri-stat resources are useful in PVP doesn’t mean they’re the best choice there either. It’s worth noting that the 10% crit damage becomes zero for any of the popular Malacath builds.
Anyway, getting too far off topic. This is about Altmer passives, which are basically 2000 Max Mag, 258 Spell Damage, and some useless nonsense because every race needs 3. Feels incomplete. I’m sure the reason for this is to prevent Altmer from being too far ahead of Breton and Dunmer, but I don’t think that justifies removing their identity (which used to be high elemental damage, high Magicka pool, and slightly better Magicka sustain than most races). And racial stat density balance was clearly not an issue when designing the Stamina races, with Orc so far ahead of all the others (not that there’s anything wrong with Orc, I actually like their passives, just need to bring Bosmer and the others up to that level).
If you argue between pve and pvp, we can as well say, that the entire Altmer Spell Recharge passive is useless for pve, as it fullfills 0 use there. It is purely intended for pvp, where it is not even that great.
Khajiit is played by many in pvp. Now I would say, it is easily one of the races I encounter the most and I believe that is true, though they stand out with their tail, whereas there could be any race hidden behind a heavy armor.
It is true, I would not choose Khajiit for any pve role either, though they have a very strong field with pvp, which is more than some races can claim about themselves.
Khajiit may not be Orc, but it’s not exactly useless. Unless 95K DPS is somehow useless. That’s more than enough to clear any content in the game as long as you can do mechs. 🤣2 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »The trouble with people's interpretations of the balancing is that there is not 1:1 correspondence between the racial flavor skills.
Raw stat bonuses are the primary driver of balance and ZOS subsequently created (in their eyes) either stronger or weaker racial flavor bonuses to attempt to fill in the remaining gaps. In other words, races with stronger raw stat bonuses generally tend to receive weaker flavor bonuses and vice versa.
And since raw Spell or Weapon Damage is also the single most valuable stat in the game for damage purposes (outside of Critical Chance which no race has), races that receive that particular bonus (which is rare) tend to also receive weaker racial flavor bonuses.
Altmer do not need anything to be a top-tier damage race as they already have the max allowable stat budget for both their primary resource pool and their respective damage stat. Give them 1000 more Health and they are simply Magicka Orcs (who everyone already agrees are OP). Give them anything else that directly increases damage or that assists in primary resource sustain and you have either created an entirely new echelon of OP (above even Orcs) or else you have cheapened the value of Bretons (who trade away raw damage for sustain).
Traditional TES would have established Altmer as the premier damage race (encompassing both damage and sustain) BUT that power would have come with the traditional Altmer kiss-curse of being weaker to magic and elemental damage (embodied in ESO terms by a significant penalty to Spell Resistance) than all of the other races. However, since ESO does not do complexity particularly well, having any racial maluses is a non-starter and consequently there is nothing more that is able to balance out a further hypothetical increase to the Altmer power budget.
I agree that Altmer should not receive 1000 Health to be like Orc, it would make no sense with their lore. They also shouldn’t receive Orc’s extra sprint speed (as fun as this would be XD). When races were originally redesigned Altmer had Magicka return through Spell Recharge, so the devs are not opposed to this concept, just player complaints about other races being inferior caused the change to restore stamina. IMO this was a poor solution, other races could have been improved instead of removing Altmer’s sustain. Even a numbers adjustment would’ve been acceptable. Their old 9% recovery works out to about 23 Magicka per second on most builds, less than half the value of Minor Intellect and about 1/5 of a standard set bonus (129 Magicka Recovery). They don’t need 100+ mag every 6s, just a token nod to the race’s strengths.
A kiss-curse could be interesting too, taking maybe 3-5% more damage from Shock, Flame and Frost. I’m also wary of the balancing though, they’d need to gain something significant in return, and could become the unopposed meta. ZoS also has a strong history of making the “curse” much stronger than the “kiss”, with examples like Thrassian, NMA and Talfyg’s.1 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »The trouble with people's interpretations of the balancing is that there is not 1:1 correspondence between the racial flavor skills.
Raw stat bonuses are the primary driver of balance and ZOS subsequently created (in their eyes) either stronger or weaker racial flavor bonuses to attempt to fill in the remaining gaps. In other words, races with stronger raw stat bonuses generally tend to receive weaker flavor bonuses and vice versa.
And since raw Spell or Weapon Damage is also the single most valuable stat in the game for damage purposes (outside of Critical Chance which no race has), races that receive that particular bonus (which is rare) tend to also receive weaker racial flavor bonuses.
Altmer do not need anything to be a top-tier damage race as they already have the max allowable stat budget for both their primary resource pool and their respective damage stat. Give them 1000 more Health and they are simply Magicka Orcs (who everyone already agrees are OP). Give them anything else that directly increases damage or that assists in primary resource sustain and you have either created an entirely new echelon of OP (above even Orcs) or else you have cheapened the value of Bretons (who trade away raw damage for sustain).
Traditional TES would have established Altmer as the premier damage race (encompassing both damage and sustain) BUT that power would have come with the traditional Altmer kiss-curse of being weaker to magic and elemental damage (embodied in ESO terms by a significant penalty to Spell Resistance) than all of the other races. However, since ESO does not do complexity particularly well, having any racial maluses is a non-starter and consequently there is nothing more that is able to balance out a further hypothetical increase to the Altmer power budget.
I agree that Altmer should not receive 1000 Health to be like Orc, it would make no sense with their lore. They also shouldn’t receive Orc’s extra sprint speed (as fun as this would be XD). When races were originally redesigned Altmer had Magicka return through Spell Recharge, so the devs are not opposed to this concept, just player complaints about other races being inferior caused the change to restore stamina. IMO this was a poor solution, other races could have been improved instead of removing Altmer’s sustain. Even a numbers adjustment would’ve been acceptable. Their old 9% recovery works out to about 23 Magicka per second on most builds, less than half the value of Minor Intellect and about 1/5 of a standard set bonus (129 Magicka Recovery). They don’t need 100+ mag every 6s, just a token nod to the race’s strengths.
A kiss-curse could be interesting too, taking maybe 3-5% more damage from Shock, Flame and Frost. I’m also wary of the balancing though, they’d need to gain something significant in return, and could become the unopposed meta. ZoS also has a strong history of making the “curse” much stronger than the “kiss”, with examples like Thrassian, NMA and Talfyg’s.
Of course a kiss curse would be a good option. But then everyone will cry for nerf, because Altmer would outperform everyone by far on a dummy target that can not fight back.
I just want Spell Recharge to receive some proper improvements. It is too niche as of now.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.
My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos0 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »StarOfElyon wrote: »I do wonder why the title suggests the OP is about the high elf passives (plural) yet only talks about half of one passive. That is not even a passive, it is half of one and ignores the rest.
It's poorly worded but what I'm trying to say is that overall the passive feel less loaded than some other race's passive. I don't think spell damage and 2k magicka are enough to make them on par with Orc and Dunmer.
The Khajiit should be brought up too. It looks like ZOS tried to balance "stat density" for them but their bonuses are pretty low, in my opinion.
In my opinion, the entire Dominion has inferior passives. It shows every time I look at the Cyrodil map.
Is high elf one of the top choices for PvE mag build ? - Yes
Is high elf one of the top choices for PvP mag build ? - Yes
Case closed.
Redguard on the other hand...
Redguard is an interesting one. Obviously it’s going to have a hard time competing with Orc, but their stat density is actually pretty good. It’s just so focused on sustain, and Stamina sustain is in a good place so it’s not needed. Breton has a similar issue, except Magicka sustain is bad enough to keep it relevant, and they’re only competing with Altmer and Dunmer (far below Orc). Redguard seems to get worse with each update, as new class stamina skills are added. Their weapon cost reduction does nothing to help skills like crystal weapon, growing swarm and stone giant. Fewer weapon skills are used in general, with things like Poison Injection and Rending Slashes disappearing from most builds.
Anyway, I agree that Redguard needs something, but it’s a pretty different scenario than Altmer.
You should see bosmer if you think redguard has good stat denstiy. They got buffed in the recent patch with the endurance changes to the point that redguard became an official rp race if it wasn’t already. Though bosmer should have not lost its stealth capabilities.4 -
carlos424✭✭✭✭✭StarOfElyon wrote: »It seems like it's missing something. Other races get immunity to status effects and additional bonuses such as reduced cost to sprint (which is great in any situation).
Maybe I'm looking down on the Altmer's 5% damage reduction when casting/channeling but it seems underwhelming. It doesn't seem as great as other passives. Do you agree?
If so, what do the Altmer need passive wise to be on par with races like Orc and Dark Elf?
Seems like it should have the magicka equivalent of the orc passives, no?
0 -
Vildebill✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Not to be rude but it seems like you've missed that Altmer is the best magicka DPS race and probably the best magicka PVP race as well.
I can agree that the spell recharge passive aren't that great for a lot of scenarios, but if you compare the passives Altmer have with for example Khajiit, which has a crit passive and still crit for less damage because spell/weapon damage is better, Altmer passives are far better than what most races have.EU PC5 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Seems like it should have the magicka equivalent of the orc passives, no?
No, they should not as that contravenes established lore regarding Altmer being more magically gifted yet constitutionally weaker than the other races. Giving them health or speed does not make any sense at all within that context. Giving those passives to Orcs made sense because they (and Redguards) are already long established as being the best warriors in all of Tamriel. ZOS simply went too far with the Orc stat density when compared to the other races (or, from perhaps a more fun perspective, they did not go far enough with the stat density of the other races).
@WrathOfInnos I agree with much of what you say in that Altmer ideally ought to have a sustain feature as a call-back to the lore but I just don't believe that it can be done within current balance parameters without the use of a kiss-curse. If you give them any degree of additional sustain on top of their already BiS damage stats then that would obviate any other race from the Magicka discussion.
I really do wish that ZOS had a greater scope of racial stat bonuses as that would allow them to shade races in one direction or another while still having comparable amounts of universally valuable damage stats. I also wish that they would embrace the pre-Skyrim perspective of including racial penalties to certain attributes as further call-backs to the lore. You could imagine a scenario where Altmer had a 5% arcane damage malus on top of something like -1000 Health and Stamina. Such penalties would allow for a much freer hand when assigning them their damage stats.0 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Actually, thinking more about Altmer’s weakness to magic, they do have that represented in a way. Every other Magicka-oriented race has more resistance to spells. Breton has 2310 to 4620 Spell Resistance (about 5-10% damage reduction), Dunmer has 2310 Fire Resistance and Immunity to Burning, Khajiit and Argonian (also Orc and Imperial) have extra health and slight self healing. So even without an explicit weakness they do have end up being the squishiest race.
I suppose the exception here would be if the Altmer was making great use of their 5% damage reduction while channeling, such as a Templar beaming through execute. IMO this passive doesn’t need to exist though, it’s extremely niche, and “tough Altmer” is an oxymoron. Let them be glass cannons.0 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The thing with Altmer, is that it is blatantly obvious it has been catered to magicka sorcerer pvp.
Magicka Sorcerer pvp is the only class where I consider the 3 magicka races to be balanced and equal.
This is because you can convert stamina into magicka, which results in Altmer having the best magicka sustain of the 3 races.
Spell Recharge restores 6400 stamina per minute. I personally achieve this quite reliably. This is 3 additional dark conversions I would not normally have. 3600x3 magicka, so 10800 magicka per minute.
Breton's recovery is 100 base and 190 for me after all %s I do have. That is 5700 magicka per minute. So their cost reduction has to make up for 5100 magicka a minute. Which for me in pvp, normally does not work due to downtimes or me doing something other than casting magicka abilities. So Altmer does indeed have the best magicka sustain. At least for pvp. No sorcerer in their right mind uses dark deal in a professional endeavor. So Breton for pve for me.
But this is untrue for any other pvp class (well, except templar of course), where I would never even consider running Altmer, because Breton is superior in every way, especially once the meta shifts a bit away from stamina players again.Edited by Dracane on December 22, 2020 3:42AMAuri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.
My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos1 -
Vildebill✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The thing with Altmer, is that it is blatantly obvious it has been catered to magicka sorcerer pvp.
Magicka Sorcerer pvp is the only class where I consider the 3 magicka races to be balanced and equal.
This is because you can convert stamina into magicka, which results in Altmer having the best magicka sustain of the 3 races.
Spell Recharge restores 6400 stamina per minute. I personally achieve this quite reliably. This is 3 additional dark conversions I would not normally have. 3600x3 magicka, so 10800 magicka per minute.
Breton's recovery is 100 base and 190 for me after all %s I do have. That is 5700 magicka per minute. So their cost reduction has to make up for 5100 magicka a minute. Which for me in pvp, normally does not work due to downtimes or me doing something other than casting magicka abilities. So Altmer does indeed have the best magicka sustain. At least for pvp. No sorcerer in their right mind uses dark deal in a professional endeavor. So Breton for pve for me.
But this is untrue for any other pvp class (well, except templar of course), where I would never even consider running Altmer, because Breton is superior in every way, especially once the meta shifts a bit away from stamina players again.
Not that I don't agree with many of your points, but they sound pretty anecdotal to me. While it's pretty easy to measure races and stats in PvE DPS I'd say it's far harder in PvP due to personal play style and preference.
What might be "professional endeavour" for you might be something totally different for someone else. Like dark deal, which in this argument gives almost double the resources if you measure it the way you did. The stamina can also result in more roll dodges. Or just about anything you'd use your off stat resource depending on the build.EU PC0 -
oscarovegren✭✭✭we need new passives actually
like khajit - %50 less cost for roll dodge and %10 dodge chance against direct damage
orc %25 damage buff to heavy attack(melee) and %10 chance to stun and cripple(melee)
wood elf +10 meters range for ranged attacks and %10 crit chance ranged attacks
argonian - immune to poison and disease - immune poison dots and defile
high elf- more spell damage while you in combat - less damage taken if your magicka more than %70
No no no to range and crit buffs on bows. They are already so oppressive. There is no need to buffing stam nightblade zerglings1 -
Joinovikova✭✭✭✭StarOfElyon wrote: »It seems like it's missing something. Other races get immunity to status effects and additional bonuses such as reduced cost to sprint (which is great in any situation).
Maybe I'm looking down on the Altmer's 5% damage reduction when casting/channeling but it seems underwhelming. It doesn't seem as great as other passives. Do you agree?
If so, what do the Altmer need passive wise to be on par with races like Orc and Dark Elf?
wtf top mag race for most of cases...0 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The thing with Altmer, is that it is blatantly obvious it has been catered to magicka sorcerer pvp.
Magicka Sorcerer pvp is the only class where I consider the 3 magicka races to be balanced and equal.
This is because you can convert stamina into magicka, which results in Altmer having the best magicka sustain of the 3 races.
Spell Recharge restores 6400 stamina per minute. I personally achieve this quite reliably. This is 3 additional dark conversions I would not normally have. 3600x3 magicka, so 10800 magicka per minute.
Breton's recovery is 100 base and 190 for me after all %s I do have. That is 5700 magicka per minute. So their cost reduction has to make up for 5100 magicka a minute. Which for me in pvp, normally does not work due to downtimes or me doing something other than casting magicka abilities. So Altmer does indeed have the best magicka sustain. At least for pvp. No sorcerer in their right mind uses dark deal in a professional endeavor. So Breton for pve for me.
But this is untrue for any other pvp class (well, except templar of course), where I would never even consider running Altmer, because Breton is superior in every way, especially once the meta shifts a bit away from stamina players again.
Not that I don't agree with many of your points, but they sound pretty anecdotal to me. While it's pretty easy to measure races and stats in PvE DPS I'd say it's far harder in PvP due to personal play style and preference.
What might be "professional endeavour" for you might be something totally different for someone else. Like dark deal, which in this argument gives almost double the resources if you measure it the way you did. The stamina can also result in more roll dodges. Or just about anything you'd use your off stat resource depending on the build.
I think I just tried to justify for myself what good I can draw from High Elf over other races. Clearly, Breton would be the wisest choice. But I need to keep my sanity and tell myself some positive things. I wanted to highlight how I make use of the passive/how I see it. For roleplay reasons and preference, I would stick with High Elf no matter what.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.
My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos0 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Redguard and Khajiit are absolutely awful in most circumstances.
Altmer is uninspired and has nothing that makes them special.
Argonian needs 1k stam added.0331
06020 -
StarOfElyon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭usmcjdking wrote: »Redguard and Khajiit are absolutely awful in most circumstances.
Altmer is uninspired and has nothing that makes them special.
Argonian needs 1k stam added.
*looks at my Redgaurd hybrid* 👀
Yes. I know it's bad for other races.0
