Either ban the use of TTC/MM outside of guilds, or allow everyone to sell things on the traders.

zvavi · December 2020

@S_Tanner https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly

go read up what real monopolizing is. a monopole creates higher prices for worse services. as already stated in my previous post, there are over 200 trader habs in game. it means over 200 guilds get a trader. it means that if all traders are in 5 trade guilds, it already means that there are over 20,000 sellers.
20,000 sellers - not a monopoly.
people are trying to stop others from selling at higher prices in zone chat - not a monopoly, literally what free market is about.
you failing to sell at higher price than a body (of 20,000 players!!!!) you consider a monopoly - no issue, if you can provide lower prices than the "monopoly" people will buy.

WrathOfInnos · December 2020

Nobody actually controls prices of items in a guild. It’s just random players that happen to be in a group together so they can afford to rent a guild trader. I can’t imagine a GM trying to tell 500 players “you must sell this item for our set market price”, much less the amount of coordination required to do something like that across hundreds of different guilds, each with guild traders and hundred of members.

Edit: I want to add that TTC allows selling items on their site without being in any guild or using any addon. You just list your item and the selling price and it will show up with your @name in any searches so buyers can whisper you directly.

hafgood · December 2020

You want access to a Guild Trader? Simple

Join a guild.

End of discussion

Hämähäkki · December 2020

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Hämähäkki wrote: »

The rumor is, there are NPC's you can also sell your stuff to. And the fun part is, you don't even have to be in a guild to do so.

BUT MM AND TTC DOES NOT RECORD THAT SO WE MUST FRKIN GET RID OF THEM OR MAKE THEM SO THEY KEEP TRACK OF YOUR SALES TO VENDOR.

Hold on, the NPC takes record...OMG...you can even buy it back....blows my mind...

zvavi · December 2020

hafgood wrote: »

You want access to a Guild Trader? Simple

Join a guild.

End of discussion

it is not even hard... i am in 3 guilds that have a trader... 2 of them are entirely social, and has 0 fees. we are getting new players, old players, etc etc that apply to us on daily basis, i think i accepted one that is level 3 just a few days ago (officer in one). the only requirement is to log in once a week or u will be kicked during purge. there are many guilds like that in pc eu. i dont know about pc na, but in pc eu u can literally join social guilds with traders.

Kwoung · December 2020

S_Tanner wrote: »

TTC and MM only reflect what GUILDS do on the guild traders ONLY not everyone yet somehow everyone says TTC and MM are what people go by...the problem is TTC and MM only go by GUILDS so people who keep saying there is a market are 100% wrong there is no market when the only data being looked at is the one that the people who are allowed to post prices are doing.

You cannot have TTC and MM being used in zone chat when people in zone chat not ina guild cannot post things for sale o guild traders without being in a guild which again comes back to guilds are setting the pricing for everyone in the game.

There is no market when that is how the pricing by TTC and MM is being done

Okay, lets try this one more time. While yes, MM data is only gleaned from what items have actually sold for on guild traders, TTC data is from EVERYONE. You can go post an item for sale on TTC right now, even without being in a guild or having a trader, and unless you are trying to rip people off (which I assume is why you made this post), someone will buy it. No guild, no trader involved, just you and the buyer.

Which part of that is guilds manipulating and setting market prices and blocking you from the marketplace? Sorry dude, if you want to rip people off, others are going to call you out on it, that's how it works. I see lots of zone sales going on and not getting called out on their prices, if you are getting slammed with price checks, either learn what stuff is actually worth or stop trying to rip people off and it will stop.

S_Tanner · December 2020

Xebov wrote: »

There are some flaws in your argumentation.

TTC shows prices based on items listed. MM/ATT show prices based on items sold. Thats a fundamental difference.

Again that is 100% false. My argument is 100% correct, the problem here is that people keep ignoring key fundamental statements and words that are required to be in their replies to me in order for what they say to be accurate

I've reworded your reply so it's correct here you go:

Xebov wrote: »

TTC shows prices based FROM GUILDS TRADERS ONLY on items listed IN THE GUILD TRADERS. MM/ATT show prices based on items sold UNDER THOSE GUILD TRADER PRICE LISTINGS.

TTC and MM reading from everyone being allowed to post pricing, and TTC/MM and only reading the prices guild members instead of of everyone is a fundamental difference

Your first reply and what everyone else is doing is excluding everyone being allowed to post and only using the current setting which is guild data only to create a false narrative full of inaccurate readings.

Want to get a real market value and data reading, stop the guild only posting *** and turn the traders into an AH for everyone to use.

Until then stop saying one sided data from the guild side if things is accurate.

hafgood · December 2020

Sorry guys, got to go, my invite to the Guild Traders Cartel Weekly Price Setting Meeting just came through, looks like it might take a while, there are 20,000 of us on the zoom call and we've a packed agenda, think there are 100,000 items on the list.....

zvavi · December 2020

S_Tanner wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

There are some flaws in your argumentation.

TTC shows prices based on items listed. MM/ATT show prices based on items sold. Thats a fundamental difference.

Again that is 100% false. My argument is 100% correct, the problem here is that people keep ignoring key fundamental statements and words that are required to be in their replies to me in order for what they say to be accurate

I've reworded your reply so it's correct here you go:

Xebov wrote: »

TTC shows prices based FROM GUILDS TRADERS ONLY on items listed IN THE GUILD TRADERS. MM/ATT show prices based on items sold UNDER THOSE GUILD TRADER PRICE LISTINGS.

TTC and MM reading from everyone being allowed to post pricing, and TTC/MM and only reading the prices guild members instead of of everyone is a fundamental difference

Your first reply and what everyone else is doing is excluding everyone being allowed to post and only using the current setting which is guild data only to create a false narrative full of inaccurate readings.

Want to get a real market value and data reading, stop the guild only posting *** and turn the traders into an AH for everyone to use.

Until then stop saying one sided data from the guild side if things is accurate.

dude, his reply is not that everyone can post in guild traders, but that everyone can buy in guild traders. anyone can buy in guild stores, got it? it means that everyone can go and buy things that are overpriced in zone chat, for a lower price, in a guild store. complaining that you cant sell in zone chat because of mm and ttc, when the buyers are the same buyers is pure ignorance. what you are complaining is that you cant monopolize zone chat to make inflated prices, well of course you cant, free market mate.

S_Tanner · December 2020

S_Tanner wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Market prices aren't solely set by guild members per Se.

Yes they are because the only way prices can be set in guild traders IS BY A GUILD MEMBER
How do you not get that simple point.
Everything you said beyond that isn't relevant. Unless everyone (guild members and non guild members alike) are being allowed to post something for sale on the guild trader then your equation isn't valid because your only using what guilds are doing instead of everyone.

Which is exactly why the data from MM and TTC is 100% completely flawed and nowhere near accurate.

YOu are all continuing to use Monopolized data from one side and trying to use it in a market that 100% requires 2 sides in order to be correct.
if people want to use MM and TTC fine, then you have to remove the restriction of GUILD members only and allow everyone top post how they want form the place that TTC and MM reads

Right now everyone is trying to cram TTC and MM onto people THAT ARE NOT IN GUILDS.

I'll make this simple. I am not in a guild so TTC and MM DO NOT APPLY TO ME. Nor do they apply in zone chat..know why..because right now they only read what goes on in the GUILD TRADERS which is priced by GUILD MEMBERS.

No one has any business telling me I have to be subjected to guild prices when I'm not in a guild but more importantly outside of a guild in zone chat.

As I said people want to link MM and TTC prices in zone chat, fine then you will have to allow people in zone chat to post their prices on the guild traders so TTC and MM gets that data as well.

I do not have a problem with anyone using TTC and MM WHERE IT BELONGS, start dragging that *** into a place where it does not belong and then trying to force cram that *** pricing onto people that had no say in that is sheer idiocy.

zvavi · December 2020

hafgood wrote: »

Sorry guys, got to go, my invite to the Guild Traders Cartel Weekly Price Setting Meeting just came through, looks like it might take a while, there are 20,000 of us on the zoom call and we've a packed agenda, think there are 100,000 items on the list.....

dude i farmed *** tons of kuta today, quick everyone remove your kuta listings and lose gold so i can monopolize the prices to make gold /s

Xebov · December 2020

S_Tanner wrote: »

Again that is 100% false. My argument is 100% correct, the problem here is that people keep ignoring key fundamental statements and words that are required to be in their replies to me in order for what they say to be accurate

Hard to argue with someone who sits in a circle based on his opinion and rejects everything.

The data used is accurate. You know why? Because everyone will always buy from the cheapest seller and sell to the highest bidder. Using guild traders or not doesnt change that because its a fundamental way how the market is working.

S_Tanner wrote: »

Want to get a real market value and data reading, stop the guild only posting *** and turn the traders into an AH for everyone to use.

Guilds make 90-95% of all tradings in the game. The remaining few % will not drastically alter data, especially not on mass sold items like resources.

If you want an auction house just say so, no reason to start a circus here.

The way you argument gives me the feeling that you are one of the players that try to buy below market price or sell above market price in zone chat and feel harassed when ppl interact with your buisness model by showing everyone that they can sell it higeher or buy it cheaper than your offer.

Edit: Quote formatting

Kwoung · December 2020

hafgood wrote: »

Sorry guys, got to go, my invite to the Guild Traders Cartel Weekly Price Setting Meeting just came through, looks like it might take a while, there are 20,000 of us on the zoom call and we've a packed agenda, think there are 100,000 items on the list.....

Wait what, I didn't get mine yet! I was really hoping to impose my will on my 450 guild members tomorrow morning or boot them out and make them sell in zone chat if they don't comply! Dangit, can you send me the meeting notes with the agreed upon min/avg/max pricing values at least?

hafgood · December 2020

Kwoung wrote: »

Wait what, I didn't get mine yet! I was really hoping to impose my will on my 450 guild members tomorrow morning or boot them out and make them sell in zone chat if they don't comply! Dangit, can you send me the meeting notes with the agreed upon min/avg/max pricing values at least?

Of course I can, there appears to be a few contentious items on the agenda though, we are stuck on the price of potatoes at the moment. I'll send the notes through when thr meeting finishes, think it might by done a couple of days after next weeks meeting starts....

Scardan · December 2020

I see two "mistakes": first, you are describing a situation where only guilds are involved in sales. This is not true. I constantly see traders outside the guilds in the chat.
Secondly, if such a situation existed, the guilds would form the entire economy of the game, form all its prices, and thus would be a real market with real prices that would be reflected in the TTC. You are describing such a situation, but for some reason you say that their prices do not reflect the actual prices. You're contradicting yourself here.

Further, the prices in the shopping center should not be taken literally. Average prices are displayed there. There will always be those who sell cheaper or more expensive, the prices there are just for orientation and therefore I see no point in the TTC ban for the chat zone. It will be, on the contrary, inconvenient - you have to minimize the game and go to the website. People would still tell you about the prices on TTC even without linking it to chat zone. TTC ban would not re-educate people.

Why are you offended (or not, just seems to me like that) by people who point you to the price in the shopping center? Write to them that you want to sell for your price, if they don't like it, let them look elsewhere. In any case, if you sell above the average price, whoever dictates it, the guild or all the players at once, you will always find yourself in a counter-advantage.

As for traders, I agree and disagree at the same time. On the one hand, it would be convenient for me to sell things. On the other hand, do traders available not only for guilds - the meaning of existence and competition of trade guilds immediately ceases to exist.

S_Tanner · December 2020

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Nobody actually controls prices of items in a guild.

Yes they do..HOW else are people buying things. The guild members 100% must post a price TO BEGIN WITH, that means the only price people have to deal with IS THE ONE LISTED. IF that isn't true then how are people buying this to even determine what something should be.

No guilds list things FIRST then people buy them then TTC and MM uses that data to make judgement calls...Problem is that it's all based on the LISTINGS GUILDS POST for people to buy to begin with.

1. TTC and MM read guild trader
2. Guild guild members are the only ones authorized to sell things
3. Guild members are the only ones involved the pricing
4. Guilds control and make the prices in ESO

See the issue people are overlooking is regardless of what is happening, when guild members are the only ones being allowed to list things, that is guilds setting the prices.

I am not allowed to be involved with that, neither is anyone not in a guild so how can anyone seriously say that guilds aren't setting the prices when they're the only ones who can manually type in amounts and click list or whatever is done..

ME as a person not in a guild cannot make a price the prices are written in by guild members and so when ever

it's not that hard of an equation] to see and follow. So If you want to argue TTC and MM then until guild members are the only ones

Everyone needs to be allowed to be involved in pricing not just guilds.

LashanW · December 2020

S_Tanner wrote: »

In order for people to say the phrase market or going rate the data from both people in guilds and not in guilds must be used because there are 2 sets of data, and right now only 1 of those 2 is being used which is guilds only.

You cannot have a market when there are 2 sets of data needed and one is being excluded

When it comes to in-game sales, yes there are 2 data sets.

Sales made without involving guilds (zone chat, COD mail etc.)
Sales made using guild trader npcs (mostly trading guilds and there's a lot of them)

What if 1 set of that data pool is so much larger than the other set? (if you've learnt statistics you'd know)

@S_Tanner
Do you have any idea about the actual sizes of these 2 data sets? I don't, so I'm not gonna make assumptions. Are you making assumptions? Or do you have a valid estimate about sizes of both data sets?

Lady_Lindel · December 2020

Got my popcorn ... who needs Netfix for comedy .......

Scardan · December 2020

Also it seems that everybody can list their item and their price at TTC, so the TTC data is not only from guild members, what is the point of your argument then?

hafgood · December 2020

Dude, everyone is allowed to be involved in pricing. You can ask for what you want for an item whether selling through a guild or not.

You can try to sell a potato for 100k, nobody will buy from you, people will point out that the average price for a potato is actually 1 gold.

Same with any item. You can try to sell the Timbercrow outfit for 4 million, someone will point out you can get it on a guild trader for 1.5

What you appear to want is to be able to charge what you want without anyone being able to tell the purchaser that you are over pricing.

I have news for you, we can do that without TTC etc. The more you sell the more you get a feel for prices and the more you can spot a rip off.

TTC is a tool,.nothing more, it no more dictates prices than guilds do.

Use it, don't use it.

Join a guild, don't join a guild.

We don't have an auction house, we are not getting an auction house. Use what is available, don't use what is available, choice is yours.

But seriously do read the replies, and get educated.

Ooh, this is exciting, we've moved onto the pricing for carrots, there is some.serious discussion going on about how much they should cost...

S_Tanner · December 2020

Xebov wrote: »

Again you have a very flawed argument.
The data used is accurate. You know why? Because everyone will always buy from the cheapest seller and sell to the highest bidder./quote]
The data is not accurate because you're using only half the data.
There is 2 sets of data not 1

People not in guilds data that should be allowed to post things on the guild trader
and
guild members which are the only people allowed to post prices and things for sale.

Your argument is severely flawed and can only be factual and accurate IF you allow both the people not in a guild, and the people in a guild to post the same items on the trader when those items for came out. Right now only guild members can do that so they do not include the people not in a guild.

Now you're trying to argue high low price except for one small problem, the prices people bought were made by the guild members only because they had all the say to set what people buy.

You and everyone else keep excluding everyone has to be allowed to be posted and that data recorded along with what the guild members do.

As long as TTC and MM data only uses guild data that isn't also being posted by people not in a guild, then It isn't EVER going to be accurate or valid

S_Tanner · December 2020

hafgood wrote: »

Dude, everyone is allowed to be involved in pricing. You can ask for what you want for an item whether selling through a guild or not.

That is 100% false.

I want you to take a fresh level 1, do not join a guild, as soon as you get out of the starting area, go up to the first guild trader you see and post something on the trader..
Let me know how well that works out for you.

When you can do that ,then and only then do you get to say everyone is allowed to be involved in the pricing.
What I just explained is not what happens when An item comes out and gets put on the traders for sale for everyone to buy. Nope what happens is the guild members post it because no one else can thus they set the prices and no one else was involved.

You cannot USE Once people start buying as the baseline for price determination, the price determination has to include everyone upon listing the item for the very first time. Which is again something only guild members are allowed to do. and everyone keeps on ignoring that like it doesn't matter.

Guild member's make prices which then other people have been subjected to them with no say.

You cannot then take forced buying, and say you can get an average.

It doesn't work like that and as such no one here is going to tell me that TTC and MM is accurate because it's only using 1 sided data not all available data like it is supposed to be to get real data

TTC and MM do not apply to me know why, because I had no saay in when the item was first listed because I am restricted from being able to have my say.

SO I do not acknowledge TTC and MM and I won't until everyone is allowed to list things for sale on the guild trader ate their own prices not have to be told guild prices are what the price is.

MerguezMan · December 2020

Hi,

I don't really get what is in OP, as some of what is said is not in line with my reality. I'll try to clarify.

- I've been part of a large guild for years that is focused on questing and cooperation (pvp included, but no mandatory banner). The guild has enough members so that some things you put in the guildstore may not even need a merchant ingame to be sold : someone in the guild may buy.

- AFAIK the prices are not dictated by the guild. Players can ask for a price check to our guild specialists, but that is never a mandatory step to put things on sale, and I never heard of a minimum price for anything. If one think average price is high, nothing prevents him to set a lower price to sell faster.

What also buggers me is how OP does not details the types of item sold, and generalizes assumptions. Though, traders and players do not have the same attitude towards farmed materials and more unique items, for instance.

- Assuming you usually famr and sell crafting materials, you won't daily ask a price check for each stack. You can check around and see how the stack of iron goes.

- When you happen to find a rare motif page without farming for it and want to resale, then you logically wonder how much its worth, and its usually though to find something to compare and set a "correct" price, you have no idea how much it could be between 30k and 80k gold, or even more maybe. That's when you may ask.

So, I think there are several types of players that range from casual players that sometimes use the market, to semi-professionnal traders that use it daily, and that there are several markets that range from common items to very rare items.

OfC, this also means some players make great use of price check, and some don't really understand what they are using. Though, keep in mind there is never a 100% guarantee you will sell what goes to the guild store. I had timeout returns, and set the exact same price for some items, sometimes they take a while to sell, sometimes my price tag was too high and it never goes. Sometimes I shop around and see crazy high prices, and then I'll go find the item myself in the wild or simply wait later.

The whole thing is not perfect, but it's hard to draw lines and ask to ban or force generalities that would apply to everything.

I guess each wave of new players (when ESO goes on discount, or when there is a hyped new chapter) comes with players unfamiliar with prices, but familiar with other games guildstores, try to make the most golds out of their items, and make the prices higher for a while. But guildstores prices can't stay high if nobody is willing to buy, it just takes some time to adjust.

Hämähäkki · December 2020

Lady_Lindel wrote: »

Got my popcorn ... who needs Netfix for comedy .......

Xuhora · December 2020

Lets use your real world scenario here:
There is a wallmart on one side of the street and a target on the other side of the street. Fortunately the wallmartside has more pedestrians walking (reason why does not matter). The targetside is pretty empty, with some occasional passerbys.
now there is you, you have a cart made of timber and such, and you can move around where you like.

wallmart represents the guilds in frequent zones, such as belkarth, capitols and what not, target represents the guilds in some barren overland zone.
You represent, well…you and the other 10 people typing WTS <insert item> for <insert price>

You all just sell oranges (to simplify). So there are two ways YOU can sell you oranges: either cheaper wallmart but more expensive than target, OR cheaper then both. If this is your strategy then you should not hat problems at all selling oranges.
BUT if you, for what ever reason, try to sell your oranges more expensive than both, then you will have a really hard time selling, because people will say: waaait a minute, why should I buy from here and not go into Wallmart or even target?

You see my point? What you are trying to do now is shouting at pedestrians that they should not be allowed to know what the prices are in those 2 markets, because you and the other 10 guys are not allowed to sell in those.

And by the way: you are the only one in here calling people mental and other names, besides stating at the beginning to keep it civil and such…. Way to go man, way to go

VaranisArano · December 2020

Players who use MM and TTC generally realize that the data isn't 100% accurate across the board.

But you'd have better traction if you argued from the facts.

Ahem, let me take a stab:

"Guys, citing MM and TTC at zone chat sales pitches isn't helpful.

Your MM prices are only based on the sales from your five guilds and we have no idea if those are good guilds or podunk traders with wacky prices. TTC is always a little inflated because its sales listing, not actual sales, and the data is uploaded unevenly at times.

Plus, guys, remember that none of the zone chat sales are reflected in your MM/TTC data. My price I'm offering is set based on my experience and what I've been selling these items for in zone chat. I don't have a fancy addon to post my number, but people are buying at my price.

So thanks, but no thanks. Your add-ons aren't helpful for selling in zone chat."

Okay, that's how I'd argue it if I were one if those players who goes around hawking my wares in zone chat.

I'm not. I'm in a trading guild, and I learned to trade without MM. Its got its uses, but its hardly essential. (All the console traders wave hi!)

I posted MM links under a couple circumstances. One, someone asked me. Two, someone was buying items in zone chat for far, far below the value players would make if they joined a guild and sold around the average price.

Like, if my cornflower was flying off the shelf at 350 gold, I'd say that when I saw someone scalping newbies asking for cornflower at 200 gold. Obviously, the individual player can decide if the extra profit is worth the effort to join a guild and sell it themselves, or if they'd rather have the gold now. But at least they can make an informed decision, right?
I saw this a fair bit in Craglorn. Last time I seriously farmed there, there were a number of players who will offer a "cash now!" deal for nirncrux. They'd offer 15k for potent nirncrux, and I'd counter that I couldn't keep my guild slots stocked at 19k, and I have no doubt that some of those players were reselling it in a capital city guild for 21k or so.

And finally, the new player guide to finding a trading guild:
1. Finish tutorial
2. Once in the overland, check out Guildfinder
3. Find a trading guild that fits you and how much you want to sell, apply, and be accepted
4. Alternatively ask in zone chat until you find a guild that's a good match for you
I used the zone chat method, since I started playing before Guildfinder

Some players will argue "There's not enough guild trader slots for every player to trade from a guild trader. The system is broken!"

To which I will reply: "There do seem to be enough guild trader membership slots available for every player who wants to join a trader guildto have a guild that fits their playstyle. Certainly trading guilds are constantly recruiting."

Recent · December 2020

I agree with you OP
We should not be forced to join trading guilds to sell our wares..we should have a better ststem, an ingame trading hiuse NOT run by humans. I'd rather pay eso gold than some scammy guild.

I loathe the eso guild system with a passion. Players getting rich off of unsuspecting people....it's exploitation and it's sad that the masses can't see it. I'm not surprised...it's exactly like the real world. You can't escape the real world even in a freaking fantasy game....

Olupajmibanan · December 2020

After reviewing all OP's comments I get it.

The story is most likely:
OP tried to scam new players, by trying to sell something in zone chat for extreme, by no means accurate, price. Someone quickly warned new players about his intent to scam by posting accurate price data. OP is salty for his scam ending in failure and forum is the most seeked asylum by salty players.

Recent · December 2020

hafgood wrote: »

You want access to a Guild Trader? Simple

Join a guild.

End of discussion

He clearly wants other options and you dont get to tell him 'end of discussion' . It's his post...his right to have his views heard .

caperb · December 2020

The two things I'm not getting:
- Isn't everyone in a trade guild already?
- What stops you from filling the zone chatbox?

MM and TTC don't set prices btw, they are just guidelines.