Either ban the use of TTC/MM outside of guilds, or allow everyone to sell things on the traders.

S_Tanner

None of you can't justify scamming people, and you're admitting it.

I don't even need to go into the game to document this, you're all doing it right here now.

There isn't a single reply that has any of you making comments or discussing you buying the item for 2k, but every reply has me trying to buy it for 2k.

That shows how corrupted you people are. The price for you being 2k from me is fine no one says anything, nobody links TTC and or MM. No mention of that in anyone's reply

Switch that around and no w I'm trying to buy the same item for 2k
You people are right there linking MM and TTC, making comments in chat name calling and making absolutely sure the chat is spammed with how much the item is..

JKorr

S_Tanner wrote: »

This is a very long post because it has a lot of information which needs to be explained in explicit detail, so please bear with it. There is no other real way to explain this problem. So I wanted to make sure I gave a very thorough and detailed description which outlines everything.

This topic most likely will not change anything, but this problem does need to be addressed because it royally pisses me off. I just needed to post this for everyone else who has a problem with this.

Thanks!

P.S. if you're going to troll, not read the topic,leave a reply solely off the title of this topic please don't, it's counter productive. Clogging the topic so other people who want to participate won't be able to do so easier is immature. Please be respectful of everyone's opinion.

________________________________________________________________________________________________

I will begin by saying there are several groups of people that will get involved with this topic.
Those who will not like this
Those that do not understand it
Those that will argue against this
Those who understand exactly what I'm talking about and agree with this.

Please respect everyone's opinion and don't attack anyone. This topic specifically exposes a problem within the games so called market, that has gone unchallenged until now. Because I'm challenging it by exposing a flaw in the games so called market, that will develop hate because someone is coming in will be labeled as disruptive or a troll. But the fact is name calling or getting mad, doesn't change the problem that does in fact exist. People that like the system, will say it isn't a problem. Anyway, please keep it civil and work towards a resolution for this so everyone wins.

Regardless of opinion, I will explain things in detail so that there is nothing to misunderstand, and the problem cannot be denied.

Ok so here is the situation:
The sales system in this game is bad...What I mean by that is, Guilds are the only people who have been granted the ability to sell things on the traders.
Restricting who is allowed to sell things in the traders in an MMO means those people are now setting the games entire prices for everything.

TTC and MM both read guild data for the sales, which is directly derived from the PRICING, which means guild people are telling every single person in the game the price of something which is absurd.
{STUFF SNIPPED FOR SPACE}
Another thing people need to stop saying in chat that is false is about TTC/MM.
People are trying to say that TTC and MM reflect market value and they do not. They reflect what guilds price things at and nothing else. GUilds putting prices on everything is the direct data that you see people saying TTC and MM are using..

Fact is sale prices only happen when pricing is put up for sale, the sale price is actually what dictates everything. Without the sale price there is nothing to buy, which means TTC and MM are 100% both guild pricing tools ONLY and as such, need to be kept out of every place in the game outside of guilds. The use of Both TTC and MM especially need to be banned from zone chat and let me explain why.

Everyone uses zone chat because it's public, this includes people who aren't even in a guild. Sure guild members use Zone chat, however Guild members are the only ones allowed to sell things no one else people who are not ina guild and in zone chat cannot do that.

This situation literally creates 2 completely separate markets people can say no it doesn't all they want, but it does and here is how.
If only guild members can put things up for sale on the traders, then how is it getting actual market value if the other people cannot put things up themselves. The guilds are setting prices without the say of anyone else not in a guild, then those prices are forced onto the people no in the guild and who cannot actually post something for sale. So you only get guilds which is a one sided market and it's set for people. So this is why people saying it's the going rate or average price are completely wrong. you cannot get an average price to reflect real pricing when only one side of the market is being allowed to produce data.

The next thing about this is people who say well don't buy it, excuse me...but what I'm sorry. but that phrase is completely asinine. The only way for anyone to buy anything from anywhere, IS through the guild trader. And don't say zone chat either because any time someone tries to post in zone chat with their own price, all people link TTC and MM which is again gets it's data directly from guild pricing.

This brings me to the topic title, because TTC and MM use GUILD ONLY data, and no one is being allowed to sell things in general chat without TTC and MM being thrown at them, they need to be barred from being use any place outside a guild, especially in zone chat where people are trying to make their own prices and they are still being subjected to guild pricing via TTC and MM.

People constantly use TTC and MM so there is zero hope for anyone in zone chat to be able to sell/buy anything for their own pricing.

This brings me to the overall aspect, if people want to use TTC and MM in zone chat that would be fine PROVIDED TTC and MM are getting REAL market value which can only be achieved by allowing everyone to post things for sale on the traders instead of just guild members. If people don't want that, then you have no business forcing people who cannot sell things on their own to what guilds tell them they have to sell things for..that is idiotic and it breaks the economy.

What is happening now is this (Using Walmart and Target as the example this will show people how bad this is for the economy:
Walmart represents guilds
Target represents the Zone chat and people putting their own prices
Both businesses are under 1 roof.
TTC and MM represent the building Target and Walmart are both. and there is a load speaker that runs to both stores

Now everyone can go shopping at either place, however Walmart can only dictate prices at Walmart and no place else, same with target. They are literally 2 completely different places and economy systems. One cannot be forced into the other and TTC and MM only using data from WALMART not both businesses.
Either allow everyone to sell on the traders so that TTC and MM will reflect a real market and value in this game and get an actual going rate because it has all people participating in that data.
Or
Ban the use of TTC and MM from being use anywhere except in guilds.

Again please be respectful of people's opinions.

Thank you!

TTC uses the prices people post items for. Not what they actually sold for.

MM shows what the items actually sold for, in guilds that player belongs to.

You seem to have the idea that *guilds* set the prices.

*Guilds*, unless people have agreed to a really totalitarian format, do NOT set the prices.

*Players* set the prices. Set a price too high, and no one will buy your item. Set a price that is reasonable, your item will sell.

You seem to be trying to regulate player behavior, not prices. Nothing is stopping anyone from listing that one rare new armor motif for 10 gold. However, people being people, its going to be listed for a lot more. Mostly because everyone knows that someone who is desperate to get the newest stuff first will pay whatever they ask. Once that happens, other people know they can set super high prices. Were you here for the last couple of events? New motifs/outfit pages were priced really high the first few days. The last few days the price dropped to 1k or 2k.

I use MM to get an idea of what others are selling things for, and I set my own prices. Sometimes the same, many times about 500 gold cheaper. And none of my guild masters has ever said I have to set prices on my items to a "guild price".

Jeremy

S_Tanner wrote: »

None of you can't justify scamming people, and you're admitting it.

I don't even need to go into the game to document this, you're all doing it right here now.

There isn't a single reply that has any of you making comments or discussing you buying the item for 2k, but every reply has me trying to buy it for 2k.

That shows how corrupted you people are. The price for you being 2k from me is fine no one says anything, nobody links TTC and or MM. No mention of that in anyone's reply

Switch that around and no w I'm trying to buy the same item for 2k
You people are right there linking MM and TTC, making comments in chat name calling and making absolutely sure the chat is spammed with how much the item is..

They're not "corrupted" Tanner. They just prefer being able to actually buy and/or sell things in an imperfect system rather than being broke and poor in one. The problem isn't TamrielTradeCentre. It's how the market on this game is structured.

linuxlady

S_Tanner wrote: »

This is a very long post because it has a lot of information which needs to be explained in explicit detail, so please bear with it. There is no other real way to explain this problem. So I wanted to make sure I gave a very thorough and detailed description which outlines everything.

This topic most likely will not change anything, but this problem does need to be addressed because it royally pisses me off. I just needed to post this for everyone else who has a problem with this.

Thanks!

P.S. if you're going to troll, not read the topic,leave a reply solely off the title of this topic please don't, it's counter productive. Clogging the topic so other people who want to participate won't be able to do so easier is immature. Please be respectful of everyone's opinion.

________________________________________________________________________________________________

I will begin by saying there are several groups of people that will get involved with this topic.
Those who will not like this
Those that do not understand it
Those that will argue against this
Those who understand exactly what I'm talking about and agree with this.

Please respect everyone's opinion and don't attack anyone. This topic specifically exposes a problem within the games so called market, that has gone unchallenged until now. Because I'm challenging it by exposing a flaw in the games so called market, that will develop hate because someone is coming in will be labeled as disruptive or a troll. But the fact is name calling or getting mad, doesn't change the problem that does in fact exist. People that like the system, will say it isn't a problem. Anyway, please keep it civil and work towards a resolution for this so everyone wins.

Regardless of opinion, I will explain things in detail so that there is nothing to misunderstand, and the problem cannot be denied.

Ok so here is the situation:
The sales system in this game is bad...What I mean by that is, Guilds are the only people who have been granted the ability to sell things on the traders.
Restricting who is allowed to sell things in the traders in an MMO means those people are now setting the games entire prices for everything.

TTC and MM both read guild data for the sales, which is directly derived from the PRICING, which means guild people are telling every single person in the game the price of something which is absurd.

People at this point now will say all sorts of rubbish such as, anyone can sell anything how they want, or no one is stopping you from selling anything, you get the idea.

The flaw in people's statement starts with TTC/MM. The instant anyone in chat posts something they are selling and puts their own price on it, they are instantly met with some a-hole in zone chat linking what both TTC and MM have recorded for sales which again comes directly from the prices people are posting.

Anyone that tries to explain TTC and MM do not have any business being used in Zone chat because those use guild PRICING not buying data and zone isn't a guild, are met with even more a-holes posting even more total nonsense comments that don't even apply such as TTC and MM say so or everyone buys them at that price...or that's the going rate.

The problem with those comments people fail to grasp is that there was never any actual market set up to reach that point. Instead the guilds put the pricing and then that's it..So Yeah of course people buy them at that price, it's the only price they've had forced onto them by the guild people posting it like that.

People need to seriously stop attacking people who complain about this in chat and literally believing that somehow the market gradually became like that through natural course of progression when it sure in hell did not.

There are 2 phrases people say in the game that really get on my nerves
1. That's the going rate.
2. It's market value.

The reason those phrase annoy the *** out of me is because they are both false.
People are taking a one sided market which had the prices prepped and posted by the guilds instead of everyone which would allow a naturally progressed market, then forcing it into conversation as if that price people are complaining about was choice by players. That is completely absurd!

If everyone was allowed to post on the guild trader for sale, then the prices from TTC/MM wouldn't be an issue when people use them to link prices to things in chat because they would reflect and actual market, not this rigged *** the guilds have been doing.

Another thing people need to stop saying in chat that is false is about TTC/MM.
People are trying to say that TTC and MM reflect market value and they do not. They reflect what guilds price things at and nothing else. GUilds putting prices on everything is the direct data that you see people saying TTC and MM are using..

Fact is sale prices only happen when pricing is put up for sale, the sale price is actually what dictates everything. Without the sale price there is nothing to buy, which means TTC and MM are 100% both guild pricing tools ONLY and as such, need to be kept out of every place in the game outside of guilds. The use of Both TTC and MM especially need to be banned from zone chat and let me explain why.

Everyone uses zone chat because it's public, this includes people who aren't even in a guild. Sure guild members use Zone chat, however Guild members are the only ones allowed to sell things no one else people who are not ina guild and in zone chat cannot do that.

This situation literally creates 2 completely separate markets people can say no it doesn't all they want, but it does and here is how.
If only guild members can put things up for sale on the traders, then how is it getting actual market value if the other people cannot put things up themselves. The guilds are setting prices without the say of anyone else not in a guild, then those prices are forced onto the people no in the guild and who cannot actually post something for sale. So you only get guilds which is a one sided market and it's set for people. So this is why people saying it's the going rate or average price are completely wrong. you cannot get an average price to reflect real pricing when only one side of the market is being allowed to produce data.

The next thing about this is people who say well don't buy it, excuse me...but what I'm sorry. but that phrase is completely asinine. The only way for anyone to buy anything from anywhere, IS through the guild trader. And don't say zone chat either because any time someone tries to post in zone chat with their own price, all people link TTC and MM which is again gets it's data directly from guild pricing.

This brings me to the topic title, because TTC and MM use GUILD ONLY data, and no one is being allowed to sell things in general chat without TTC and MM being thrown at them, they need to be barred from being use any place outside a guild, especially in zone chat where people are trying to make their own prices and they are still being subjected to guild pricing via TTC and MM.

People constantly use TTC and MM so there is zero hope for anyone in zone chat to be able to sell/buy anything for their own pricing.

This brings me to the overall aspect, if people want to use TTC and MM in zone chat that would be fine PROVIDED TTC and MM are getting REAL market value which can only be achieved by allowing everyone to post things for sale on the traders instead of just guild members. If people don't want that, then you have no business forcing people who cannot sell things on their own to what guilds tell them they have to sell things for..that is idiotic and it breaks the economy.

What is happening now is this (Using Walmart and Target as the example this will show people how bad this is for the economy:
Walmart represents guilds
Target represents the Zone chat and people putting their own prices
Both businesses are under 1 roof.
TTC and MM represent the building Target and Walmart are both. and there is a load speaker that runs to both stores

Now everyone can go shopping at either place, however Walmart can only dictate prices at Walmart and no place else, same with target. They are literally 2 completely different places and economy systems. One cannot be forced into the other and TTC and MM only using data from WALMART not both businesses.

Now you have 2 businesses with data only being used from one store.

Anyone can go buy anything from either store, however this is when problems start occurring, someone from target tries to sell something, instantly anyone from Walmart that is in target. flock to the person in target and start linking data from TTC and MM.

When it's pointed out that Target is not Walmart, instead of people saying oh yeah this is a different store, they instead get very aggressive, and Walmart will even come over the loud speaker and start saying what the going rate is and literally drowning out the person in target.

TTC and MM need to have data from BOTH stores collected before any type of so called average price or going rate is. Right now, all people are doing is using Walmart prices, which has been set by Walmart and then forced into target so no one in target has a say.

Sorry people but you do not have a going rate or average price without everyone being able to participate..You simply just don't.

Right now in the current set up of the game when people use the phrases
GOING RATE/AVERAGE PRICE, they are saying it's the going rate IN WALMART ONLY, not in target. You must have the data from both stores in order to say going rate or average price, if you don't have data from both store, then you have a one sided going rate that should not be being applied to anyone that isn't being allowed to participate.

This *** of Guilds can force their prices onto people that are not in a guild but people not ina guild cannot force their prices onto guilds, needs to end

Either allow everyone to sell on the traders so that TTC and MM will reflect a real market and value in this game and get an actual going rate because it has all people participating in that data.
Or
Ban the use of TTC and MM from being use anywhere except in guilds.

Again please be respectful of people's opinions.

Thank you!

Translation: people in zone chat arent able to rip people off as well when people respond to zone chat wtb wts ripoff scams with prices listed in ttc,mm, and att. So the OP proposes the banning of those tools in zone chat so that people can be ripped off more easily by blocking the proof tools that call out the ripoff zone chat sellers and buyers for the ripoff scams that they are.

Pretty much that and nothing else.

zvavi

S_Tanner wrote: »

None of you can't justify scamming people, and you're admitting it.

I don't even need to go into the game to document this, you're all doing it right here now.

There isn't a single reply that has any of you making comments or discussing you buying the item for 2k, but every reply has me trying to buy it for 2k.

That shows how corrupted you people are. The price for you being 2k from me is fine no one says anything, nobody links TTC and or MM. No mention of that in anyone's reply

Switch that around and no w I'm trying to buy the same item for 2k
You people are right there linking MM and TTC, making comments in chat name calling and making absolutely sure the chat is spammed with how much the item is..

So you are complaining that people don't stop you from being scammed by your own prices, while stopping many others for being scammed by you? Lol. Alright. Look mate. When someone is dictating prices in zone chat, it is his choice. If he is taking a loss, it is his responsibility. But if he is trying to sell/buy to/from ignorant people it is scamming. Just like in the real world. If you are a business and your prices are a loss, it is your responsibility, while if you are selling for higher prices, you are a scammer, and as in a free market, sending information to potential "clients" is not illegal.

Edit:
People did point out times where people out if their good will helped a newer player selling low. @VaranisArano did. You just ignored it.

VaranisArano

S_Tanner wrote: »

None of you can't justify scamming people, and you're admitting it.

I don't even need to go into the game to document this, you're all doing it right here now.

There isn't a single reply that has any of you making comments or discussing you buying the item for 2k, but every reply has me trying to buy it for 2k.

That shows how corrupted you people are. The price for you being 2k from me is fine no one says anything, nobody links TTC and or MM. No mention of that in anyone's reply

Switch that around and no w I'm trying to buy the same item for 2k
You people are right there linking MM and TTC, making comments in chat name calling and making absolutely sure the chat is spammed with how much the item is..

Er...

Remember back when you said:

S_Tanner wrote: »

That means if I post something for 2k that you all somehow think is 30k, and you link MM and TTC to show a 30k Price you just screwed a potential buyer out of an item, not too mention violated section 2.3 of the code of conduct by purposely and maliciously using an add on to screw with my ability to sell something. So you can take them for more later on thus you're scamming them not me.

So according to you, by correcting your low, low price, we would be breaking the TOS by screwing you out of a sale and a buyer out of a deal. Oh No!

(That's an incorrect interpretation of what's going on, but I felt I should point out the hypocrisy of your own stance here.)

"But no one mentioned this before now, you corrupt hypocrites! Gotcha!"

Er...

Remember back when you said that quote? My reply to that comment is pasted below.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Wait, is it...

"WTS [Opal fancy helmet] for 2k"

"Hey, you know that's selling on guild traders for 20k, right?"

"What? WTS [Opal fancy helmet] for 20k! You awful person, you just used an addon to screw someone out of a fantastic deal!"

Or is it...

" WTS [Opal fancy helmet] for 2k"

"Really? Great deal, I'll take it."

"You hypocrite! Why didn't you tell me I could sell it for 20k on a guild trader?!"

Hmm. I did put you in the position of selling for 2k after all!

linuxlady

Everyone can sell things in traders. Unless you have been thrown out of every guild that has traders because you cant behave, everyone has the ability to join a trading guild.

pelle412

This seems much ado about nothing. There are only two cases where addon prices are quoted in zone chat. One is where a zone chat seller tries to sell an item above market place. The addon prices then just informs prospective buyers that they can probably get a better deal somewhere else, but they can still buy from you. The other case which I see much more frequently is someone attempting to buy mass quantities of high value items severely underpriced so they can re-sell on a guild trader for profit. Quoting addons then just serves to inform prospective sellers to not fall into this trap. They can still sell to you anyway if they choose.

BlueRaven

S_Tanner wrote: »

I want you to take a fresh level 1, do not join a guild, as soon as you get out of the starting area, go up to the first guild trader you see and post something on the trader..
Let me know how well that works out for you.

...? But my fresh level 1 will already be in all of guilds automatically...

Are you asking us to make a new account? If so, no thank you. But if I did, I would just join a social guild that has a trader.

I am currently in five guilds, only two of which are “trader” guilds, yet all five have traders to sell from. What exactly is the problem here?

VaranisArano

pelle412 wrote: »

This seems much ado about nothing. There are only two cases where addon prices are quoted in zone chat. One is where a zone chat seller tries to sell an item above market place. The addon prices then just informs prospective buyers that they can probably get a better deal somewhere else, but they can still buy from you. The other case which I see much more frequently is someone attempting to buy mass quantities of high value items severely underpriced so they can re-sell on a guild trader for profit. Quoting addons then just serves to inform prospective sellers to not fall into this trap. They can still sell to you anyway if they choose.

OP seems to fall into the first category, and is upset that players would post information that items are cheaper on guild stores.

OP is also very upset that players are not also posting information that they could sell their items for more gold. I don't believe it has occurred to them that they could use TTC without being in a guild and do their own price checks so they don't have to worry about ignorantly underselling their items.

ZOS_ConnorG

Greetings all,

After review we have closed this thread. There is a lot of Baiting going on as well as some derailing happening, to prevent the thread from devolving more it has been closed. Please remember when engaging in a discussion that it must be civil, constructive and within the rules. Do not respond to baiting with further aggression, no matter how aggressive a post may seem.

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