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Either ban the use of TTC/MM outside of guilds, or allow everyone to sell things on the traders.
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Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Sounds like someone got kicked out of a guild without ability to join back
Edited by Olupajmibanan on December 14, 2020 9:25AM10 -
S_Tanner✭✭✭
Love how people constantly think that buying things has nothing do to at all with who are the only people ALLOWED TO makes and SET the prices for people to buy.Sales, SALES, are open to everyone. Everyone can go to a guild trader and buy something.
Give us one single reason why prices from "all people" without guilds would be different form those from the same people but when they are in guilds, Mr. It's-100%-false.
Buying DOES NOT IN ANY WAY reflect any actual sales data for accuracy..it simply does not...GUILD only pricing is one sided and as such does not make an actual market when people not in guilds have been locke dout from being able to participate in the making of their prices.
People buying under subject conditions do not make accurate sales...
There 2 types of people in this game, people in guilds, people not in guilds.
Guild members can make, set and post prices,
People not in guilds can only buy the items at the prices set by guilds
So where do you or anyone get off saying it's accurate market when the sales prices can only be made and posted from the guild side of things when there are 2 sides of data that need to be looked at and only one side is being allowed.
You serious?
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Kwoung✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Both TTC and MM are not getting actual market data when the only people being allowed to post things for sale are people in guilds
I explicitly explained that in detail in the topic, which you totally ignored.
Actually, that statement is 100% false. I buy stuff individuals post on TTC outside of guild traders all the time. A simple search will generally just turn up someone's @name among the listings, those are people not in guilds who have listed their items for sale via TTC. So the entire premise that TTC is only based on guild trader data is 100% false.
Get your facts straight.
5 -
Kwoung✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The major flaw in your entire argument is saying that "guilds" price things. They do not, players participating in the economy price things, guilds do not price anything. Heck, I was a VERY active trader in numerous high end trade guilds, not once did my guilds tell me what to price things at, as a matter of fact, guildmates will undercut each other... that is what sets the market value, not some imaginary guild cabal.
Now I run a guild with a decent trader, I do not tell folks what to price things at, it is 100% up to them. If they want to sell cheap for a quick sale, more power to them. If they want to price high and risk losing their listing fee, up to them as well.
Join a guild and pay your dues for a trader. Easier than posting a long rant on the forums.
Was that actually meant for me? I run a guild with a trader, as well as meet the requirements of numerous other trade guilds I belong too.
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SeaGtGruff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The guilds per se don't set prices on things, because any member of a guild with enough members for the guild store to be enabled can post whatever they want to sell in the guild store at whatever price they want to ask. Then, if the guild bids on a trader and wins, whatever is posted for sale in the guild store becomes available to anyone outside of the guild via the trader. So the prices as such are being set by the players who post things for sale, not by the guild.
You can usually see huge variations in the prices being asked for any given thing, and it's no surprise that the listings which have the lowest prices are the ones that get snatched up the quickest.
As I see it, where the problems start to arise is with what happens to those lowest-priced listings after they're snatched up.
When the players who bought the items keep them for their own use, there's no problem.
But when the players who bought the items repost them for sale at higher prices than they'd paid for them-- flipping-- then you get into an area where wealthier players can start to manipulate the prices of items and control the market.
Flipping is a very popular pastime for some players, who see it as a legitimate way to increase their gold. They enjoy checking guild traders for what they consider to be "under-priced items," which they then like to buy and flip, reposting them for sale at what they consider to be "fair market value." And if anyone criticizes the practice of flipping, the flippers tend to respond with comments like "It's just basic capitalism," or "You obviously don't know anything about the way economies work," etc.
Well, capitalistic countries usually have laws related to buying and selling. There are usually laws to protect buyers, and laws to protect sellers. That are usually laws related to monopolizing the market, laws related to price-gouging, laws related to scalping, laws related to reselling things, etc. For example, you cannot walk into a grocery store that is having a sale on milk, buy up all of the milk at the sale price, slap a label for your own brand over whatever labels are on the milk you bought, take it over to some other grocery store, and put it up for sale at a higher price than you paid for it. You can't walk into a convenience store, buy a pack of cigarettes, walk outside the store, open up the pack of cigarettes, and start selling individual cigarettes to make a profit. When it comes to buying something and then reselling it, there are things you're allowed to do, and things you aren't allowed to do. Those things might vary from place to place depending on differences in the laws of those places, but there are usually laws about such things.
The problem is that there are no such "laws" regarding the in-game marketplace; it's sort of an "anything goes" scenario. I'm not trying to argue whether that's a good thing or a bad thing; I'm just pointing out what the facts are as I see them. But since there are no real "laws" as such, there is the potential for manipulation.
To be fair, I suspect that any serious infractions and abuses would probably be investigated-- especially if they're reported-- and might lead to either soft bans ("social bans") or hard bans ("permanent bans"). Again, I'm not arguing for or against such enforcement, just pointing out that it might happen.
But to get back to your original point about players trying to sell things in zone chat, the only real difference between that and trying to sell things in a guild store is that there's the possibility of getting the kind of "instant feedback" that you mentioned, where people post some price range that they just pulled off of TTC or MM. Players who post something for sale in a guild store aren't going to get that kind of instant feedback, but they'll definitely get a sort of delayed feedback about their prices based on whether or not anyone buys their items at the requested prices. Personally, I think I'd rather get the feedback sooner rather than later; but that's me.I've fought mudcrabs more fearsome than me!1 -
RageKing✭✭✭✭seems to me your just mad that you get called out on your infalted
No I didn't, because you totally ignored this entire post and what it's about. You're trying to manipulate what EVERYONE being able to sell things on the guild trader means by saying just create a guild which means you didn't even read the topic.
Both TTC and MM are not getting actual market data when the only people being allowed to post things for sale are people in guilds
I explicitly explained that in detail in the topic, which you totally ignored.
The only way to get real market pricing is to stop allowing guilds to be the only people allowed to post things for sale.
Unless that happens then the only pricing being done are from guilds which means it' a one sided market.[/quote]
How are you not understanding that the market is set by the players and those players are in guilds. They then sell their goods in the guild trader. Its not some illuminati guilds setting the market prices.
so far everyone in this thread is disagreeing with you. why do you think that is? maybe because you have a twisted view on the market? yea thats my guess. goodluck with that but your views are yours alone apparently.1 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
That is 100% false.Everyone is able to participate in guilds. Even sales in guilds that don't have traders (guilds who are only listing and selling to one another) are taken into account in TTC.
There absolutely is.There's nothing barring any player from joining a guild and trading.
if you seriusly believe anyone cna put anything on the guild trader then prove it...I want you with no excuses do the following:
Create a level 1 and Do not join a guild, instead once in the game go directly to any guild trader and take an item in your inventory list it for sale on the guild trader.
Anyone trying to say anyone can sell things on a trader is both straight up delusional, and a liar because they can't without being in a guild.
If you say anyone can do it you just have to be in a guild, then just defeated your own arugment because this is about EVERYONE being able to sell things on the guild trader..not just guild members which is exactly what i said.
The definition of anyone being able to sell things on a guild trader means even people who are not in guilds.
If anyone can do what I just explained I'll redact this entire post.
*sigh*
It's so depressing watching the death of logic in today's Twitter addled society.
Statement: "There's nothing barring any player from joining a guild and trading."
Assertion: "There absolutely is."
Proof: "Create a level 1 and Do not join a guild, ... go directly to any guild trader and ... list [an item] for sale on the guild trader."
I've seen this argument pattern so many, many times lately. Proving a statement is wrong by....not doing what the statement said to do......
And because I've seen this play out so many times, I also know what comes next. Think I'll pass on repeating myself over and over and over and over this time."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."8 -
S_Tanner✭✭✭
Wrong!Ttc checks items that are up for sale, but no yet sold, and provides data: location, seller, price etc.Mm takes the data after said item is ACTUALLY SOLD and then records the event.
Quite a big difference.
Who types in the price on the guild trader? GUILD MEMBERS no one else. And that is why your argument falls apart.
You're taking one sided data, from a 2 sided data equation and trying to argue a 2 sided argument, using 1 side.
So let me say this, in order for anyone to say ACCURATE Data or market value YOU MUST 100% Remove the guild requirement from guild traders and make them an auction house so no one needs to be in a guild to post and sell something.
Until then, you and everyone else will be completely wrong when you say average market or going rate.
The only market that exists right now is a guild market not an actual market
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Kwoung✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Wrong!Ttc checks items that are up for sale, but no yet sold, and provides data: location, seller, price etc.Mm takes the data after said item is ACTUALLY SOLD and then records the event.
Quite a big difference.
Who types in the price on the guild trader? GUILD MEMBERS no one else. And that is why your argument falls apart.
You're taking one sided data, from a 2 sided data equation and trying to argue a 2 sided argument, using 1 side.
So let me say this, in order for anyone to say ACCURATE Data or market value YOU MUST 100% Remove the guild requirement from guild traders and make them an auction house so no one needs to be in a guild to post and sell something.
Until then, you and everyone else will be completely wrong when you say average market or going rate.
The only market that exists right now is a guild market not an actual market
You obviously chose to ignore my post, because it told you that you are wrong. TTC has sales from any player that choses to use it, whether they are in guilds, have access to a trader or not.1 -
S_Tanner✭✭✭The major flaw in your entire argument is saying that "guilds" price things. They do not, players participating in the economy price things, guilds do not price anything. Heck, I was a VERY active trader in numerous high end trade guilds, not once did my guilds tell me what to price things at, as a matter of fact, guildmates will undercut each other... that is what sets the market value, not some imaginary guild cabal.
Now I run a guild with a decent trader, I do not tell folks what to price things at, it is 100% up to them. If they want to sell cheap for a quick sale, more power to them. If they want to price high and risk losing their listing fee, up to them as well.
Join a guild and pay your dues for a trader. Easier than posting a long rant on the forums.
Nope, barbecue that's you saying guilds making prices which is the entire point to this whole topic. which proves there is no market.
only way to have a market in this game is to remove guild requirement from guild traders and allow anyone to post..
Do that and then You can say TTC and MM read the market.
Right now they only read the guilds, and guilds are one sided which means there isn't a market guilds monopolize the pricing prevents any type of market.0 -
Veles✭✭✭✭Does it seem to me or is it just a hurtful insult for the author that he has to humbly accept conditions imposed on him by more smarter people who were able not only to organize the market, but also to successfully control it?
TTS and MM are just tools. And those who understand how they work first analyze the market, and do not blindly accept prices they recommend. But in order to do this, you must at least have a brain and not to start completely absurd topic on the forum.Edited by Veles on December 14, 2020 9:48AM8 -
S_Tanner✭✭✭
That is a load of *** because the price used in guilds is brought out into the zone chat so it's the same thing. You still used the same price. Which means you didn't do anything.Both TTC and MM are not getting actual market data when the only people being allowed to post things for sale are people in guilds
I explicitly explained that in detail in the topic, which you totally ignored.
Actually, that statement is 100% false. I buy stuff individuals post on TTC outside of guild traders all the time. A simple search will generally just turn up someone's @name among the listings, those are people not in guilds who have listed their items for sale via TTC. So the entire premise that TTC is only based on guild trader data is 100% false.
Get your facts straight.
You cannot have guilds as the only way to sell things, while people should be able to sell things on their own without being in a guild, then really believe there is some actual market
Remove the guild only selling restriction from the traders and allow everyone to use it at will with no guild involvement, then come talk to me about a market.
Guilds monopolizing the market for pricing means there is no market.0 -
Nairinhe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
That is 100% false.Everyone is able to participate in guilds. Even sales in guilds that don't have traders (guilds who are only listing and selling to one another) are taken into account in TTC.
There absolutely is.There's nothing barring any player from joining a guild and trading.
if you seriusly believe anyone cna put anything on the guild trader then prove it...I want you with no excuses do the following:
Create a level 1 and Do not join a guild, instead once in the game go directly to any guild trader and take an item in your inventory list it for sale on the guild trader.
Anyone trying to say anyone can sell things on a trader is both straight up delusional, and a liar because they can't without being in a guild.
If you say anyone can do it you just have to be in a guild, then just defeated your own arugment because this is about EVERYONE being able to sell things on the guild trader..not just guild members which is exactly what i said.
The definition of anyone being able to sell things on a guild trader means even people who are not in guilds.
If anyone can do what I just explained I'll redact this entire post.
*sigh*
It's so depressing watching the death of logic in today's Twitter addled society.
Statement: "There's nothing barring any player from joining a guild and trading."
Assertion: "There absolutely is."
Proof: "Create a level 1 and Do not join a guild, ... go directly to any guild trader and ... list [an item] for sale on the guild trader."
I've seen this argument pattern so many, many times lately. Proving a statement is wrong by....not doing what the statement said to do......
And because I've seen this play out so many times, I also know what comes next. Think I'll pass on repeating myself over and over and over and over this time.
At this point I'd start to get afraid of getting dragged down and beaten with experience.2 -
S_Tanner✭✭✭In order for people to say the phrase market or going rate the data from both people in guilds and not in guilds must be used because there are 2 sets of data, and right now only 1 of those 2 is being used which is guilds only.
You cannot have a market when there are 2 sets of data needed and one is being excluded0 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Isn't this a nerf sorc thread now? We haven't complained about sorcs in a while Even that would be more constructive discussion than this excrement. 5 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Both TTC and MM are not getting actual market data when the only people being allowed to post things for sale are people in guilds
I explicitly explained that in detail in the topic, which you totally ignored.
The only way to get real market pricing is to stop allowing guilds to be the only people allowed to post things for sale.
Unless that happens then the only pricing being done are from guilds which means it' a one sided market.
lol. mm are market data of what people are selling in guildstores. everyone are allowed to buy from guild stores so it is gathering all the data of people buying in guild stores. alright, only people in trade guilds are allowed to sell. lets see. there are over 200 trader spots. even if trader players are filling all their 5 guilds in trade guilds, it means that 20,000 people are able to sell in guild stores. and everyone are able to buy from those 20,000 people. buying prices are what mm shows. now lets see. someone is trying to sell something at a higher price than what is in guild stores. putting aside it being a scam, you are literally complaining that you cant sell things higher than the price that people that buy things from traders(everyone) are willing to pay (if they were willing to pay everything in guild stores of the lower prices would be bought, and prices would slowly go up).
your whole post premise feels like you are complaining that 50 people sitting in a discord deciding prices for everything and then listing, neh mate, it is a free market, that is build to let over 20,000 people sell things at the same time. aint coordinated nor any other conspiracy, people sell for how much people will buy. and if u are trying to sell things with inflated prices in zone chat (when you are already not paying 7% tax!!!!!) you are scamming. you are going to old ladies and sell them vegetables for uber inflated price. there is nothing wrong with a random old lady to start screaming at you that those prices are inflated and you shouldn't scam.
edit: selling in zone is efficiently adding supply, not demand, to a market that functions in a similar way to supply and demand. thats why prices will be generally accepted in zone chat only if they are lower than average guild sales by those who dwell in the market, imagine adding more supply and expecting prices to go up.
edit 2: i see you are using the word monopoly here and there. 20,000 sellers is not even close to monopoly mate. monopoly is when one body is the sole provider to all services, and uses it to sell at very high prices. you are literally complaining you cant sell higher than a body of over 20,000 players that you consider a monopoly. this is entertaining.Edited by zvavi on December 14, 2020 9:57AM4 -
Kwoung✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
That is a load of *** because the price used in guilds is brought out into the zone chat so it's the same thing. You still used the same price. Which means you didn't do anything.Both TTC and MM are not getting actual market data when the only people being allowed to post things for sale are people in guilds
I explicitly explained that in detail in the topic, which you totally ignored.
Actually, that statement is 100% false. I buy stuff individuals post on TTC outside of guild traders all the time. A simple search will generally just turn up someone's @name among the listings, those are people not in guilds who have listed their items for sale via TTC. So the entire premise that TTC is only based on guild trader data is 100% false.
Get your facts straight.
You cannot have guilds as the only way to sell things, while people should be able to sell things on their own without being in a guild, then really believe there is some actual market
Remove the guild only selling restriction from the traders and allow everyone to use it at will with no guild involvement, then come talk to me about a market.
Guilds monopolizing the market for pricing means there is no market.
I clearly stated that individuals, who are NOT in guilds, list items and make sales on TTC at whatever price they so choose. Which part of that was incomprehensible to you? Basically, it is the same as posting in zone chat, except they are not dumb enough to waste their time doing that, they simply make a post and sell their items if anyone is buying at that price.3 -
S_Tanner✭✭✭
People that aren't in guilds need to be allowed to post things for sale on the traders asa well as guild members.At this point I'd start to get afraid of getting dragged down and beaten with experience.
Since they cannot and only guild members can then you're only using 1 section of data when there is 2 present.
You cannot say there is a market when 2 sets of data exist while one is being excluding as if it doesn't matter and wouldn't chnage anytihng.
Of course it would change things.
The guild member only restriction needs to come off the guild traders or people need to stop using MM and TTC in zone chat because it's not Fair to the people who cannot post things for sale on the traders and it makes the current data TTC and MM use incorrect.
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Kwoung✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ROFL, just stop overpricing your stuff in zone chat and you won't get picked on. Simply put, since you are avoiding both the game sales tax and any weekly fee's a trade guild may have, you should be selling your stuff well under market value, not over.11 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭In order for people to say the phrase market or going rate the data from both people in guilds and not in guilds must be used because there are 2 sets of data, and right now only 1 of those 2 is being used which is guilds only.
You cannot have a market when there are 2 sets of data needed and one is being excluded
Market prices aren't solely set by guild members per Se.
The value of x item is determined by a multitude of factors, like scarcity, demand etc.
Take for example heavy syvarra chest piece.
It's rare due to how its obtained and has a relatively high demand for due pvp meta.
It's going to be expensive regardless wheter you sell it via guild store or zone chat.
On any given server there hundreds of guilds with thousand and thousanda of members all trying to sell their vares.
Yes using mm or Ttc data can be a starting point for pricing items for many, but recognising a value of an item doesn't only have to come from those.
Lastly, most players sell via guild stores, it has been like this forever, and trust me it's not going to change.
The same way Zos isn't going to suddenly make overland mobs 100x more difficult based on a few forum posts, they also won't hang the trading system which works.
Also Ttc allows smaller guilds to participate in the economy in a much bigger way then before it existed, since you don't have to visit guild stores 1 by1 to look for a particular item.
That's a good thing.1 -
S_Tanner✭✭✭
That is a load of *** because the price used in guilds is brought out into the zone chat so it's the same thing. You still used the same price. Which means you didn't do anything.Both TTC and MM are not getting actual market data when the only people being allowed to post things for sale are people in guilds
I explicitly explained that in detail in the topic, which you totally ignored.
Actually, that statement is 100% false. I buy stuff individuals post on TTC outside of guild traders all the time. A simple search will generally just turn up someone's @name among the listings, those are people not in guilds who have listed their items for sale via TTC. So the entire premise that TTC is only based on guild trader data is 100% false.
Get your facts straight.
You cannot have guilds as the only way to sell things, while people should be able to sell things on their own without being in a guild, then really believe there is some actual market
Remove the guild only selling restriction from the traders and allow everyone to use it at will with no guild involvement, then come talk to me about a market.
Guilds monopolizing the market for pricing means there is no market.
I clearly stated that individuals, who are NOT in guilds, list items and make sales on TTC at whatever price they so choose.
Which are set by guild members so ti's irrelevant.
Which part of that was incomprehensible to you? Basically, it is the same as posting in zone chat, except they are not dumb enough to waste their time doing that, they simply make a post and sell their items if anyone is buying at that price.
People are still using TTC and MM which only read what people in guilds set prices for in guild traders in ZONE CHAT so you are just trying to argue for no reason. Your stand point is invalidated because of that simple reason.
TTC and MM only reflect what GUILDS do on the guild traders ONLY not everyone yet somehow everyone says TTC and MM are what people go by...the problem is TTC and MM only go by GUILDS so people who keep saying there is a market are 100% wrong there is no market when the only data being looked at is the one that the people who are allowed to post prices are doing.
You cannot have TTC and MM being used in zone chat when people in zone chat not ina guild cannot post things for sale o guild traders without being in a guild which again comes back to guilds are setting the pricing for everyone in the game.
There is no market when that is how the pricing by TTC and MM is being done0 -
RageKing✭✭✭✭What tanner meant to say is that he wants a auction house, he just doesnt know how to say it.6
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Hämähäkki✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The rumor is, there are NPC's you can also sell your stuff to. And the fun part is, you don't even have to be in a guild to do so.
TherealHämähäkki11 -
hafgood✭✭✭✭✭
✭Do you ever buy anything in the real world? You know, food, clothes, electrical goods?
Because if you do you will realise that the shoos set the prices,.not the purchasers.
Think of each guild as its own market. Each player has its own stall within that market.
Do all stall holders (players) price their products at the same price? No. Some charge more, some charge less. They all offer slightly different items for sale.
That guild itself does not set the prices, the individual stall holder does based on what he or she thinks it will sell for.
The purchaser then has the right to buy or not to buy depending on whether they like the price.
Think of those sales outside the Guild Trader system as the second hand goods market (I.e. resale of used goods). Its not a perfect analogy but it will do.
When selling goods outside of the primary market the primary market still governs the prices. Selling a second hand TV is never going to get as good a price as a brand new one,
Same goes here, sell through zone chat and unless you are scamming you are less likely to get a premium price because people can compare your price to those on guild traders. If you are too high expect to not sell, too low and expect a scalper to have it off you and put it on a guild trader at a profit.
The only reason for showing prices on TTC etc to someone is where they are trying to sell at well above the deemed market value. Because if its similar to TTC or less than TTC why wpuld people care?
So in other words what you want is to rip people off without them being aware9 -
Xebov✭✭✭✭✭
✭There are some flaws in your argumentation.
TTC shows prices based on items listed. MM/ATT show prices based on items sold. Thats a fundamental difference.
There is no guild pricing. No guild tells players what prices to use. Its a normal market system. They put it in to cheap its their fault, they put it in to expansive and it will not sell. Prices dynamically go up and down over time depending on supply and demand. Every guild member will happily undercut other members if it means faster and more reliable sales.
Now the usage of these tools. If someone offers an item totally overpriced in zone chat and i put TTC to the chat im showing everyone that the item is available much cheaper and that the guy trys to rip off others. When someone tries to buy things for half the price im posting my ATTto the chat to show everyone that the items are worth much more and that the guy tries to rip off others. In no case iam forcing anything on others. Im just showing them that they can eitehr get it cheaper or sell it for more. Its still up to them to buy/sell at the price offered. Its a tool that can help, hat others do with the information doesnt concern me.
Everyone in the game can sell, if they want to use a trader they can join one of the guilds. There are more than enought slots available for everyone. The system might not be ideal, but there are only 2 systems available and both have their issues. The guild trader approach has the downside that the market is somewhat devided between the different traders which leads to higher prices on common goods, but lower prices on rare goods. It also has the benefit of preventing monopolies by making them harder. The auction house approach has one big market which means more common items become cheaper, but also undercutting is very common. It also has the downside of easy to maintain monopolies on rare goods.4 -
S_Tanner✭✭✭
Yes they are because the only way prices can be set in guild traders IS BY A GUILD MEMBERMarket prices aren't solely set by guild members per Se.
How do you not get that simple point.
Everything you said beyond that isn't relevant. Unless everyone (guild members and non guild members alike) are being allowed to post something for sale on the guild trader then your equation isn't valid because your only using what guilds are doing instead of everyone.0
This discussion has been closed.