End-game Stamina DD PvE players, you have my respect

Grandchamp1989 · November 2020

Recently I wanted to try something new so I did something I hadn't done since I began playing...

I made a Stam DD for PvE.

Usually I play Mag characters and if your healer is decent sustain isn't really an issue.

Mag rotation feels smooth to me and responsive (when zos server isn't frying itself).
You got some nice long range to do your rotation (unless you're a jab wielding magtemplar of course lol)

Then I went for Stam and holy molly.... It was like playing the game on "hard" lol.

A few of my oberservations:

1. Every 2 second you have to break your rotation because the tank rotate the boss or there's giant AOE's under him.

2. You got so little reaction time to being clubbered

3. This one i really noticable - when you're up close you tend to get CC'd a lot! This not only drains your primary ressource, but when you're low on it you can't break free

4. Mag you can pop a nice skill that gives you shield based on max magicka, Stam you have to morph a weapon skill into it (2h, AOE) giving up damage

5. Spammable is beyond clunky, unresponsive and delayed for 2h and Bow. Sometimes they even get stuck in animation for a second or so ruining the flow of a rotation

6. This might just be me but I have to incorperate a lot more sustain options in my build like incorporating heavy attacking into my rotation, consuming soul trap or using a sustain set.
They say Stam is easier to sustain.. I find it harder, not sure why. Maybe I sprint too much.

I get that Stam now does 10% more light attack dmg this patch, and this is only fair.
But holy... I completed Vet Maelstrom on Mag and then on Stam... It was night and day.

They say before you pass judgement walk a mile in someone else's shoes.

I just walked with the Stamina crowd.

For End Game stamina players, kudos.

UntilValhalla13 · November 2020

I'm curious what class you made and what content exactly you were running? Stam does force you to be more raid aware, but I can't say that I've ever been CCed that frequently, or ran out of resources to that degree.

zvavi · November 2020

the only issue i have with stam over mag is that i have time until i can start hitting ranged priorities, other than that even when i am forced to leave melee i just rebuff redot and go back right in. traded range for sustain. can sustain forever even healerless. i cant sustain on mag with full heal support, something i can on my stam without...

edit: it might be because i am used to being melee as mag too.

Grandchamp1989 · November 2020

UntilValhalla13 wrote: »

I'm curious what class you made and what content exactly you were running? Stam does force you to be more raid aware, but I can't say that I've ever been CCed that frequently, or ran out of resources to that degree.

Been running quite a lot honestly
vSG, vFL, vMA etc. I have been running mostly random vet so quite a mix of stuff.
Trials I've only been to vHRC with him but I'm not a big trial player to begin with.

I find that my performance is more so than normal dependant on factor's I otherwise didn't even think about like "if the Tank could hold the boss/adds still, and not rotate them around" or the boss close range AOE. Also in trashpools it's not uncommen for them to CC me because I'm right up in their grill with the tank. As Mag I would just stay a safe distance away and let the tank absorb whatever punishment, and if he wasn't up to par usually the Stam DD would feel it before I would lol.

Also the concept of sprinting, usually in Dungeons it's a sprint from trashpool to trashpool and when trash die really quick it's just none stop sprint so when I get to a boss I'm at like 25% ressources lol. Small things like that I didn't have to worry about before... suddenly that's now something I have to take into consideration.

Husan · November 2020

"But stamplar does 100k dmg on dummy just by spamming jabs! It's op!"
-literally everyone not playing stamina

zvavi · November 2020

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

vSG

dont take as stone garden as a reference, it is very, very, very melee unfriendly, i swear to god i have no idea how that thing left the drawing table. just like vIR is *** if u r running warden (netch purging a mechanic u need to use).
the others you mentioned are fine as melee.

lolo_01b16_ESO · November 2020

I personally choose my stamplar when I feel like playing in lazy mode

But then again, the dd I used the most in raids is a mag dk, so I'm used to standing in melee range.

Grandchamp1989 · November 2020

zvavi wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

vSG

dont take as stone garden as a reference, it is very, very, very melee unfriendly, i swear to god i have no idea how that thing left the drawing table. just like vIR is *** if u r running warden (netch purging a mechanic u need to use).
the others you mentioned are fine as melee.

Are Stone Watchers (DOM) with their red AOE ring a problem? I always see melee guys go down to it when I play tank lol.
Also Scalecaller I'm not looking forward to with the giant AOE on the ogre's etc.

I dunno I'm still learning how Stam works.

colossalvoids · November 2020

As an ex stam main since elsweyr I'd surely agree about "smooth" part, you don't need to break you rotations or care about range / immobilisations which is huge qol. Can't say if getting flawless conquerors and stuff is much different in difficulty as played both specs from the start obviously but probably for a newer players the difference is huge due to lesser incoming damage and easy passive healing for most classes.

Joinovikova · November 2020

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Recently I wanted to try something new so I did something I hadn't done since I began playing...

I made a Stam DD for PvE.

Usually I play Mag characters and if your healer is decent sustain isn't really an issue.

Mag rotation feels smooth to me and responsive (when zos server isn't frying itself).
You got some nice long range to do your rotation (unless you're a jab wielding magtemplar of course lol)

Then I went for Stam and holy molly.... It was like playing the game on "hard" lol.

A few of my oberservations:

1. Every 2 second you have to break your rotation because the tank rotate the boss or there's giant AOE's under him.

2. You got so little reaction time to being clubbered

3. This one i really noticable - when you're up close you tend to get CC'd a lot! This not only drains your primary ressource, but when you're low on it you can't break free

4. Mag you can pop a nice skill that gives you shield based on max magicka, Stam you have to morph a weapon skill into it (2h, AOE) giving up damage

5. Spammable is beyond clunky, unresponsive and delayed for 2h and Bow. Sometimes they even get stuck in animation for a second or so ruining the flow of a rotation

6. This might just be me but I have to incorperate a lot more sustain options in my build like incorporating heavy attacking into my rotation, consuming soul trap or using a sustain set.
They say Stam is easier to sustain.. I find it harder, not sure why. Maybe I sprint too much.

I get that Stam now does 10% more light attack dmg this patch, and this is only fair.
But holy... I completed Vet Maelstrom on Mag and then on Stam... It was night and day.

They say before you pass judgement walk a mile in someone else's shoes.

I just walked with the Stamina crowd.

For End Game stamina players, kudos.

Mag rotation feels smooth to me and responsive.. now with current ranged LA feature ? ?

zvavi · November 2020

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

vSG

dont take as stone garden as a reference, it is very, very, very melee unfriendly, i swear to god i have no idea how that thing left the drawing table. just like vIR is *** if u r running warden (netch purging a mechanic u need to use).
the others you mentioned are fine as melee.

Are Stone Watchers (DOM) with their red AOE ring a problem? I always see melee guys go down to it when I play tank lol.
Also Scalecaller I'm not looking forward to with the giant AOE on the ogre's etc.

I dunno I'm still learning how Stam works.

idk, i usually just stand inside the ring(no damage there...), no issues for me, the ogre is an issue indeed, but unless both are stam dds, just let the mag hit the middle one, and even if both are stam dds, you can always dot the middle ogre with ranged abilities and spammable on the outer ogre, with occasional hitting middle ogre when possible (had to kinda solo dd it today, the dotting middle ogre came mostly cause tank was dragging outer boss all around so volley would have been wasted tbh xd, and the other dd was more dead than alive).

Grandchamp1989 · November 2020

Joinovikova wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Recently I wanted to try something new so I did something I hadn't done since I began playing...

I made a Stam DD for PvE.

Usually I play Mag characters and if your healer is decent sustain isn't really an issue.

Mag rotation feels smooth to me and responsive (when zos server isn't frying itself).
You got some nice long range to do your rotation (unless you're a jab wielding magtemplar of course lol)

Then I went for Stam and holy molly.... It was like playing the game on "hard" lol.

A few of my oberservations:

1. Every 2 second you have to break your rotation because the tank rotate the boss or there's giant AOE's under him.

2. You got so little reaction time to being clubbered

3. This one i really noticable - when you're up close you tend to get CC'd a lot! This not only drains your primary ressource, but when you're low on it you can't break free

4. Mag you can pop a nice skill that gives you shield based on max magicka, Stam you have to morph a weapon skill into it (2h, AOE) giving up damage

5. Spammable is beyond clunky, unresponsive and delayed for 2h and Bow. Sometimes they even get stuck in animation for a second or so ruining the flow of a rotation

6. This might just be me but I have to incorperate a lot more sustain options in my build like incorporating heavy attacking into my rotation, consuming soul trap or using a sustain set.
They say Stam is easier to sustain.. I find it harder, not sure why. Maybe I sprint too much.

I get that Stam now does 10% more light attack dmg this patch, and this is only fair.
But holy... I completed Vet Maelstrom on Mag and then on Stam... It was night and day.

They say before you pass judgement walk a mile in someone else's shoes.

I just walked with the Stamina crowd.

For End Game stamina players, kudos.

Mag rotation feels smooth to me and responsive.. now with current ranged LA feature ? ?

Wasn't the whole degeneration, ranged LA stuff fixed with the latest patch? I've been mostly on my new Stam recently so not too sure lol.

Ringing_Nirnroot · November 2020

I main a stam jabplar, easiest stam class in my opinion

emilyhyoyeon · November 2020

imo stamina is way easier in vma than magicka, especially stam nightblade with soul harvest and ballista

TwinLamps · November 2020

end game stamina players dont exist in end game cause ppl dont wanna bother with that when they can go ez mode

Fennwitty · November 2020

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Recently I wanted to try something new so I did something I hadn't done since I began playing...

A few of my oberservations:

1. Every 2 second you have to break your rotation because the tank rotate the boss or there's giant AOE's under him.

2. You got so little reaction time to being clubbered

3. This one i really noticable - when you're up close you tend to get CC'd a lot! This not only drains your primary ressource, but when you're low on it you can't break free
[/i]

I hadn't really considered, but I think your points are spot on for me. I'd say it's more melee vs. ranged though, my Bow characters handle much like staff for reaction time and crowd control.

Stamina is better able to 'break free' but yeah they have to do it more frequently. As ranged magicka if I need to break free twice in a row, I'm basically not succeeding it without a tri-pot slotted before I'm out of stamina.

NEMESIS_97 · November 2020

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Recently I wanted to try something new so I did something I hadn't done since I began playing...

I made a Stam DD for PvE.

Usually I play Mag characters and if your healer is decent sustain isn't really an issue.

Mag rotation feels smooth to me and responsive (when zos server isn't frying itself).
You got some nice long range to do your rotation (unless you're a jab wielding magtemplar of course lol)

Then I went for Stam and holy molly.... It was like playing the game on "hard" lol.

A few of my oberservations:

1. Every 2 second you have to break your rotation because the tank rotate the boss or there's giant AOE's under him.

2. You got so little reaction time to being clubbered

3. This one i really noticable - when you're up close you tend to get CC'd a lot! This not only drains your primary ressource, but when you're low on it you can't break free

4. Mag you can pop a nice skill that gives you shield based on max magicka, Stam you have to morph a weapon skill into it (2h, AOE) giving up damage

5. Spammable is beyond clunky, unresponsive and delayed for 2h and Bow. Sometimes they even get stuck in animation for a second or so ruining the flow of a rotation

6. This might just be me but I have to incorperate a lot more sustain options in my build like incorporating heavy attacking into my rotation, consuming soul trap or using a sustain set.
They say Stam is easier to sustain.. I find it harder, not sure why. Maybe I sprint too much.

I get that Stam now does 10% more light attack dmg this patch, and this is only fair.
But holy... I completed Vet Maelstrom on Mag and then on Stam... It was night and day.

They say before you pass judgement walk a mile in someone else's shoes.

I just walked with the Stamina crowd.

For End Game stamina players, kudos.

For me stamforlife...99% of all my doings on endgame is with stam melee dd!All flawless cons is stams..magdps isnt for me..tryed more times..always return to stam!

Jaimeh · November 2020

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

5. Spammable is beyond clunky, unresponsive and delayed for 2h and Bow. Sometimes they even get stuck in animation for a second or so ruining the flow of a rotation

Melee attacks have an issue with landing, not just in PvE but in PvP as well. You'll be trying to weave with your spammable, but your character will be caught in a weird dance of light attacking, without casting the skill, instead. It's very frustrating. As for the rest of the points, stamina is indeed a different playstyle, and also some fight mechanics do not agree with it. That's not say you can't do everything with a stam DD, but for certain fights, mag is better if you want to be more optimal. The biggest hurddle generally is continuing to do damage while you re-position yourself, because like you said, at melee range everything's riskier.

LashanW · November 2020

You are probably still getting used to stam dd playstyle, considering you've been a mag dd main until now. It's gonna get a lot easier when your stam rotation becomes muscle memory. Unfortunately a few fights in the game is very melee unfriendly, but others should be fine.

Jaimeh wrote: »

Melee attacks have an issue with landing, not just in PvE but in PvP as well. You'll be trying to weave with your spammable, but your character will be caught in a weird dance of light attacking, without casting the skill, instead. It's very frustrating.

This is my main pain point with melee playstyle

It's because of positional desyncs and it gets worse with higher ping. You can see the "target out of range" message every time this happens.

Husan wrote: »

"But stamplar does 100k dmg on dummy just by spamming jabs! It's op!"
-literally everyone not playing stamina

They are OP tho. This patch you only need 3 dps skills (trap, volley and jabs). That's just 2 long lasting DoTs and a spammable. So you have 7 flexible skill slots. (can easily run a ranged spammable on backbar for moments where melee is too risky)

Jabs is AoE and have a range of 8 meters which is kinda ridiculous for a melee skill. And jabs don't require you to be within range of a target to cast so it's immune to positional desync problems.

AOECAPS · November 2020

TwinLamps wrote: »

end game stamina players dont exist in end game cause ppl dont wanna bother with that when they can go ez mode[/

There’s more of us than you think we are just barred from using Stam toons period or in certain trials (depending on the raid lead)

AOECAPS · November 2020

LashanW wrote: »

You are probably still getting used to stam dd playstyle, considering you've been a mag dd main until now. It's gonna get a lot easier when your stam rotation becomes muscle memory. Unfortunately a few fights in the game is very melee unfriendly, but others should be fine.

Jaimeh wrote: »

Melee attacks have an issue with landing, not just in PvE but in PvP as well. You'll be trying to weave with your spammable, but your character will be caught in a weird dance of light attacking, without casting the skill, instead. It's very frustrating.

This is my main pain point with melee playstyle It's because of positional desyncs and it gets worse with higher ping. You can see the "target out of range" message every time this happens.

Husan wrote: »

"But stamplar does 100k dmg on dummy just by spamming jabs! It's op!"
-literally everyone not playing stamina

They are OP tho. This patch you only need 3 dps skills (trap, volley and jabs). That's just 2 long lasting DoTs and a spammable. So you have 7 flexible skill slots. (can easily run a ranged spammable on backbar for moments where melee is too risky)

Jabs is AoE and have a range of 8 meters which is kinda ridiculous for a melee skill. And jabs don't require you to be within range of a target to cast so it's immune to positional desync problems.[/

Not OP.

derpy_cat1234 · November 2020

vKA hm,vCR+ and vAS+2 are sooooo stamina unfriendly its insane how they ever got designed like that... Also trifecta groups will akways pick mag over stam cause mag has more health and shuelds are almost god mode with the press of a button

Liukke · November 2020

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Recently I wanted to try something new so I did something I hadn't done since I began playing...

I made a Stam DD for PvE.

Usually I play Mag characters and if your healer is decent sustain isn't really an issue.

Mag rotation feels smooth to me and responsive (when zos server isn't frying itself).
You got some nice long range to do your rotation (unless you're a jab wielding magtemplar of course lol)

Then I went for Stam and holy molly.... It was like playing the game on "hard" lol.

A few of my oberservations:

1. Every 2 second you have to break your rotation because the tank rotate the boss or there's giant AOE's under him.

2. You got so little reaction time to being clubbered

3. This one i really noticable - when you're up close you tend to get CC'd a lot! This not only drains your primary ressource, but when you're low on it you can't break free

4. Mag you can pop a nice skill that gives you shield based on max magicka, Stam you have to morph a weapon skill into it (2h, AOE) giving up damage

5. Spammable is beyond clunky, unresponsive and delayed for 2h and Bow. Sometimes they even get stuck in animation for a second or so ruining the flow of a rotation

6. This might just be me but I have to incorperate a lot more sustain options in my build like incorporating heavy attacking into my rotation, consuming soul trap or using a sustain set.
They say Stam is easier to sustain.. I find it harder, not sure why. Maybe I sprint too much.

I get that Stam now does 10% more light attack dmg this patch, and this is only fair.
But holy... I completed Vet Maelstrom on Mag and then on Stam... It was night and day.

They say before you pass judgement walk a mile in someone else's shoes.

I just walked with the Stamina crowd.

For End Game stamina players, kudos.

Welcome to the club.

The whole game is melee unfriendly

Try playing the Maelstrom Arena, try going into the portals in Cloudrest. Almost every content in the game is easier if you just range attack it, plainly easier.
In the Vault Umbrage (vMA) you need to attack the boss but at the same time stay away from the exploding plants :'D which most of the time are near the boss :'D needless to say as a ranged Mag you just find your safe spot and attack from there.
There's countless examples of how melee is plainly dumb in this game and you mentioned lots of them.

Alcast and many streamers made a meme of Mag classes, they create 1bar builds that can do vet dungeons like butter and are not only easier but more effective

it's just a broken system

...but I just love playing stamina, I think it goes down to the personal preferences. I like dodging things, bashing the enemy and realise that my stamina has gone (while Mag player can run out of magicka and still have emergency stamina for dodging/running).

As a tiny sidenote, you should never sprint during combat, is the first instinct you have to stop since it will stop regenerating your stamina

Good luck, you'll need it!

Second sidenote:
I hope you didn't choose a stamina DK...in that case you have my condolences

Grandchamp1989 · November 2020

Liukke wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Recently I wanted to try something new so I did something I hadn't done since I began playing...

I made a Stam DD for PvE.

Usually I play Mag characters and if your healer is decent sustain isn't really an issue.

Mag rotation feels smooth to me and responsive (when zos server isn't frying itself).
You got some nice long range to do your rotation (unless you're a jab wielding magtemplar of course lol)

Then I went for Stam and holy molly.... It was like playing the game on "hard" lol.

A few of my oberservations:

1. Every 2 second you have to break your rotation because the tank rotate the boss or there's giant AOE's under him.

2. You got so little reaction time to being clubbered

3. This one i really noticable - when you're up close you tend to get CC'd a lot! This not only drains your primary ressource, but when you're low on it you can't break free

4. Mag you can pop a nice skill that gives you shield based on max magicka, Stam you have to morph a weapon skill into it (2h, AOE) giving up damage

5. Spammable is beyond clunky, unresponsive and delayed for 2h and Bow. Sometimes they even get stuck in animation for a second or so ruining the flow of a rotation

6. This might just be me but I have to incorperate a lot more sustain options in my build like incorporating heavy attacking into my rotation, consuming soul trap or using a sustain set.
They say Stam is easier to sustain.. I find it harder, not sure why. Maybe I sprint too much.

I get that Stam now does 10% more light attack dmg this patch, and this is only fair.
But holy... I completed Vet Maelstrom on Mag and then on Stam... It was night and day.

They say before you pass judgement walk a mile in someone else's shoes.

I just walked with the Stamina crowd.

For End Game stamina players, kudos.

Welcome to the club.

The whole game is melee unfriendly
Try playing the Maelstrom Arena, try going into the portals in Cloudrest. Almost every content in the game is easier if you just range attack it, plainly easier.
In the Vault Umbrage (vMA) you need to attack the boss but at the same time stay away from the exploding plants :'D which most of the time are near the boss :'D needless to say as a ranged Mag you just find your safe spot and attack from there.
There's countless examples of how melee is plainly dumb in this game and you mentioned lots of them.

Alcast and many streamers made a meme of Mag classes, they create 1bar builds that can do vet dungeons like butter and are not only easier but more effective it's just a broken system

...but I just love playing stamina, I think it goes down to the personal preferences. I like dodging things, bashing the enemy and realise that my stamina has gone (while Mag player can run out of magicka and still have emergency stamina for dodging/running).

As a tiny sidenote, you should never sprint during combat, is the first instinct you have to stop since it will stop regenerating your stamina

Good luck, you'll need it!

Second sidenote:
I hope you didn't choose a stamina DK...in that case you have my condolences

lol this is awkward then... 2h stam DK lol

The Uninvited · November 2020

Good! Now step into Cyrodiil with your magicka character and experience the other side of the coin.

SimonBelmont · December 2020

Consider "desired outcome" as having set tiers, with each tier requiring a certain degree of "effort" to achieve it. As the degree of "effort" increases, subsequently so does the achieved tier of "desired outcome".

Mag's "effort-structure" weights the lower tiers of "desired outcome" far more generously than it does its higher tier. Meanwhile, requiring a fairly even degree of "effort" to reach each successive tier. Of course this does plateau at a certain point.

Stamina is Mags opposite, in almost every possible way. With Stamina, each tier of "desired outcome" is weighted fairly even. Meanwhile, the "effort" required to reach each successive tier goes up exponentially.

Finally, one of the principal reasons the woefully poor design of 'All Things Stamina' will likely never be taken very seriously is: the fact that Stamina plateaus higher than Mag (in a vacuum).

Players will continue to make streams and vlogs about how much damage Stamina builds can do to dummies that don't teleport or move all over the room, CC you every few seconds (with no CC-DR protection for you, of course), drop AOEs constantly, have 1shot cleaves, don't require you to sprint for a solid 15 seconds to reach them, etc, etc, etc..

So, there will always be a ready to hand excuse as to why "it's fine the way it is". Even though Stamina's skills and game-play feel like a poorly executed after-thought.

GlorphNoldorin · December 2020

Stamina has alot of things going against it in melee fighting but due to my ping being over 300, I can play stamina in most end game content simply because there isnt always the pressure to effectively light attack weave.

Magblade I cant play at all due to LA and skills sticking for a second or longer. I lose damage with missing LA but its not as problematic on my stam toons. I have to clear some of the harder content as a tank role.

It would be nice if the game was a bit more melee friendly.

Olupajmibanan · December 2020

Magicka is more beginner friendly at the expense of dps. Stamina has much higher potential but you have to be very experienced. I found this to be nice balance, actually.

General rule:
- magicka for progression
- stamina for score

Your best bet as a new player aiming at high-end PvE content is to create Dark Elf with whatever class you like. This gives you ability to swap your spec (magicka<->stamina) just by swapping gear, CP and morphs.

Inaya1 · December 2020

It always seemed to me that stam are in some sense easier than mana))) Play on mana.dk for a while, quickly get used to stam.dd. It's not as hard as it sounds x)

Mythreindeer · December 2020

Welcome to the Melee Martyr's Guild.

We were undaunted eons before Undaunted.

NEMESIS_97 · December 2020

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

vSG

dont take as stone garden as a reference, it is very, very, very melee unfriendly, i swear to god i have no idea how that thing left the drawing table. just like vIR is *** if u r running warden (netch purging a mechanic u need to use).
the others you mentioned are fine as melee.

Are Stone Watchers (DOM) with their red AOE ring a problem? I always see melee guys go down to it when I play tank lol.
Also Scalecaller I'm not looking forward to with the giant AOE on the ogre's etc.

I dunno I'm still learning how Stam works.

PLaying stam 99% stamforlife...dodge roll out of huge aoe..its bit cheaper for stamdd then mag because medium armor..atleast for me stam is love..cleared vma with way more stam dd..only magdd i cleared vma is magplar...kinda like in face gameplay..better see enemy upclose and what they will do:)