Poll - Should we be compensated for our grievances?

Sephyr · November 2020

Other

I just want a stable game. Compensation only goes so far. Sure, shiny things are nice, but that's a short term feeling compared to the longer term of all these outstanding bugs being ignored for literally years. Compensation only seems to excuse that as of late. Any other AAA title/developer? It'd be like the cherry on top. This? It's like making a deal with a Daedra.

Liukke · November 2020

idk wrote: »

Liukke wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I answered no because we have no actual right to compensation because something did not work right. This is based on the agreement each of us that actually plays the game has accepted.

We all have the right to withhold our money. That is the nature of free enterprise and is a decision we much each make on our own. I choose to continue to play and enjoy the game.

Well does any of you realise that there is a refund option of your eso+ subscription for technical problems? (or even general dissatisfaction, provided you have a reason I suppose)
I mean, I like to pay companies and buy games or in this case also subscribe (eso is on since many years, I feel like it's my duty to support the company) but this was too much for me.

I came back after years of inactivity, started an eso+ and found the game like this...guess what?
I asked for a refund.
No complains, no forum rage...sometimes I think that people forget the easy way, of course there are tos and little rules written everywhere but, as far as I can tell, this company has also a clear policy about refunds which they applied with me.

As I also mentioned in the refund mail I'll gladly come back to subscribe when the status of the game will be less disastrous but other than that it took me something like a few hours to get in contact with them and apply for a refund.

I'm not saying that everyone should do it (I hate those warcries of insurgency) but the whole topic has in theory already an answer, and is yes.

@Liukke

You did exactly what I said we can do, withhold our money. I suppose you quoted me in agreement.

@idk

Oh but it's not about withholding the money, I just pointed out that whoever has a subscription can actually be reimbursed.

If you go to the support page you can ask for a refund of your eso+ membership and the cause can be technical problems or even dissatisfaction.

Of course you can't be reimbursed for no reason or if you bought crowns/static content like dlcs/expansions but if you have an ongoing subscription and find that the game is not making you play as intended then you can definitely ask for a refund about that (including of course giving back the crowns you got along with it).

But I quote you about the company not owing us anything and choosing whether to play or not, if anybody doesn't like the state of the game is free to go or, like in my case, change playstyle and wait for a fix to come down.

I stopped my eso+, stopped any endgame content such as big trials/dungeons and I've been doing quests for now...because I know that my character won't go anywhere if I wait a bit more

If things come back functional I'll be the first to pay once more (I NEED THAT CRAFTING BAAAG BLEJHRAUIEAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!)

Vorpan · November 2020

No

No.

It's a choice to give them money and time. If one isn't happy with the state of the game then they can refuse to pay for eso+, just as they can chose to play something else.

redspecter23 · November 2020

Other

Compensated? Maybe not so much. I would very much appreciate up front honest information about the issues. Every time I see "Your account is already logged in" or "You were booted for exceeding the message limit" or any other error message that puts complete blame on the player when it's not our fault, I get a little bit sick in my mouth.

CBixby · November 2020

I truly enjoy reading all of the feedback, it’s always interesting to see all of the different perspectives of people.

This post is not meant to sound demanding or entitled, or speak on my “personal character” lol. I simply created it because I was genuinely curious about what others thought about it. I truly meant it to read “is it fair to ask” not necessarily “SHOULD”. I find it hard to express myself correctly through text so I apologize.

I meant to keep the poll simple and to the point but I am now thinking maybe I should add some context using my own personal experience.

I am a PVP/PVE end game player. I have played ESO since console launch, where I began. I have since transferred to PC (fresh account) and have been playing PC NA for about 2 or 3 years now. I am an ESO + subscriber and have been since console launch – I have spent thousands and thousands of dollars on ESO, I am fully aware this is not necessary (but I’m sure strongly encouraged lol).

Since I have been an ESO + subscriber for so long I have not needed to purchase any DLC content (I did on console, but didn’t re-purchase on PC), however, as many mentioned “you don’t need to pay the monthly sub” well for me, I kind of do. If I want to continue raiding/dc-ing with my raid group/friends through DLC trial Hardmodes then I require my ESO +. If I cancel it, I cannot raid with my guild anymore, and I will be forced to play another game (which I’m fine with) but I admittedly have a soft spot for ESO – clearly.

As far as what that compensation is, I never mentioned value, form, currency, etc as I was curious what other alternatives people would come up with. Personally, I think a fair compensation would be a month of eso + for all players or reimbursement to those that pay – that way not everyone is submitting refund request tickets for days not played/lack of enjoyment.

Obviously, the best outcome of everything would to have the game be fixed and playable. I agree with some of the comments that I feel more of an employee than a customer at times – where we are the ones reporting the bugs consistently – we are the ones informing them of crashes, so on and so on. If someone feels a sense of entitlement from that I cannot blame them for feeling that way. Personally, I have not crashed nearly as much as others but I find myself waiting around for those who have crashed that it’s simply not enjoyable lately.

The communication is so vague in the patch notes that many of us find ourselves trying to decode them. Today’s patch notes: “Fixed a crash that could occur during Trials and other effects-heavy situations” okay.. I wish this offered more detail. Does this mean ALL trials? Some trials? Which trials? “Fixed a rare crash that could happen when lots of complex particle effects are created and destroyed at once” 70% of the time I had the rare crash 100% of the time then.

Someone replied to a forum post I made over two years ago regarding broken trials.. the sad thing.. it’s still relevant.

Essentially yes, we have the right to withhold our money – yet in my situation specifically, the only person hurting from that is myself, unfortunately. I doubt ZOS gaf about one lonely ESO subscriber. A simple gift or gesture doesn’t fix anything but it does go a long way as far as morale goes – and I think that’s important. Even if it was a blunt and honest remark or forum post from zos directly – I would have nothing but respect for something like that.

mitchtheelder · November 2020

Yes

imagine 60% of player base leaving the game and the 30% that said no play

lol

Araneae6537 · November 2020

No

DigitalHype wrote: »

To all those saying "read the tos". The poll question isn't "is ZoS obligated or required to compensate". No. Of course they aren't. In fact, they aren't required to even have the servers running. If they wanted, they could shut them down for extended maintenance for 2 years due to a problem and say "we're investigating, read the tos" and continue to bill eso+ users and sell crown store items on the web.

The poll reads "should we be compensated." To all the armchair lawyers, there is sometimes a valid business argument to be made for goodwill gestures/gifts to customers. In this case, the recent quality has been so poor, with numerous severe bugs, that some customers have been turned off entirely.

My yes answer is really a maybe, leaning toward yes. The thing is that ZoS has a very captive audience, and they know it. So, they can really get away with quite a bit before it hurts them.

True, but the terms “compensated” and “grievances” makes it sound like someone has been wronged, or at least that’s how it reads to me, and to many other people as well I think.

If it was “Should ZOS give players [fill in the blank: a free pet, 5 crates, 1000 Crowns, etc.] as thanks for our patience?” or something to that effect... Even then, my feeling is: get it working and figure out how to avoid or minimize these kind of problems in the future as much as possible. A gift is a nice feel-good on top.

StarOfElyon · November 2020

Yes

I say yes to this: there is so much in the game that it would cost ZOS nothing to let us have. Give me some extra chest keys, gold, alliance points, transmute stones, motifs, change tokens, and more.

Ezhh · November 2020

Yes

Usually I'd say no, and usually I feel that "we should get compensation" posts come down to greed and a lack of realistic expectations about what is an acceptable level of issues for a game to have.

But at this point I'm staring weeks of wasted Plus time in the face. I find myself no longer wanting to engage with the game half so much and have been doing so way less, and I'm tired of the limited communication about what's going on.

Cyro changes limiting my ability to play as I enjoy (wanted to play solo healer) which are ultimately due to them not finding other ways to fix performance issues, crashes/glitches on arenas (bye bye new arena perfect run attempts), leading a trial group only for almost every pull to end in a crash... Other trial groups cancelling all over the place. Others running but me wishing they would cancel, because ultimately I know it's going to be more of the same. Impossible to complete dungeons (more crashy crash crash crashes)... How many weeks/months of the dungeon bug for low level characters?

Sure I could just move on and maybe I should, but many of us care about and enjoy the game a great deal while it's working. It would be easier to wait patiently if we felt less like issues were ignored. Less like we are ignored.

At this point I know some small nod to Plus customers at least (yea, I know if affects others too) certainly could go some way to help how many players are currently feeling, and make it more likely that we will renew our subscriptions.

Ashenkin · November 2020

Yes

Faiza wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Faiza wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Absolutely yes. It is illegal to sell a product that does not work, regardless of what their "legal" agreement says.

...the product does work though?

No one is saying there aren't bugs. But you guys are really driving this erroneous hyperbole of "unplayable" into the ground.

Hello new employee. Yes, it has been unplayable for some people. Certain content has been completely unplayable. Some folks are crashing to desktop through the launcher. I have never in the entirety of my gaming experience seen a game as buggy as this one. I am in a pre-alpha game right now that has less bugs than this one.

Haha, very funny. Not.

I played for 11hrs yesterday. Didn't crash a single time. Took a few tries to get into dungeons with a full group of people, but once we were in one we were able to queue over and over again seamlessly. Did some battlegrounds and WWs are still broken and super OP but still completed my daily quests. Killed some dragons. Did a harrowstorm. Changed my outfit 4 or 5 times because I'm indecisive. Sold some stuff on a trader. Did pledges with my guildmates. Noticed some chairs in my house weren't working. Did dolmen runs in Rivenspire with lowbies. Did a public dungeon for the mages guild quest.

Were there bugs? Yeah. But is the game running? Yes. And apparently for lots of other people to because I've never been in a zone or an instance in ESO that was empty. So there's plenty of players who are able to log on and play the game. Does that mean it's as great as we want it to be? No. But unplayable? Please. Quit the hyperbole. It's easy enough to say, "This is not the quality I want to play at" without telling outright lies.

Also...it sounds like you never played RO, RO2, vanilla WoW, Rift, ArcheAge, SWTOR, Empyrion Galactic Survival (especially Empyrion, jeeze), TERA, or any other MMOs with very rocky histories if you think this is bad lol.

I'm not saying you can't be unhappy with the state of the game. But being untruthful is also not getting you anywhere.

Edit: I forgot Wildstar and FFXIV lols.

[snip]

Clunky gameplay (light attack bug, visual bugs, characters get stuck... etc), random unexplained deaths (Arena deaths, grapplehooks, nCR/vCR portals), skills resetting on their own and not working as intended, buffs not applying as intended, broken dungeon matching tool (I queued for a vet dungeon once and was in all by myself), new solo arena bugs, Numerous quests bugged out, Cyrodiil crashes lol... etc

I have played most of those MMOs you mentioned, [snip] sometimes a skill or two in some classes but NEVER combat in general. Yes there would be bugs and other known issues but it's not as major.

TBH it's no longer a discussion in the framework of quality if the game keeps crashing you to desktop and prevents you from carrying out basic stuff such as clearing a dungeons/trials or enjoy PvPing in Cyrodiil.

If you're a person who only logs in to do quests and some gathering, ofc it's not gonna be much of a problem, but for others who are doing the majority of the game's content and experiencing these issues, ofc it is.

[Edited to remove Bashing]

CleymenZero · November 2020

Yes

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

read the tos

"Should" does not imply a real situation.

Should we be compensated? Of course, anybody saying otherwise, I want then to be my customer. I'll charge for services I won't deliver properly and you'll thank me and defend me for it.

Could we be compensated for our grievances? It is possible although TOS protects from HAVING to.

As far as business ethics go, we absolutely should be compensated.

CleymenZero · November 2020

Yes

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Just ignore the players who voted No, & left a comment...they're a good part of the problem, & reason the game performs the way it does.

That is a completely baseless statement.

Voting “no” doesn’t mean we think that the state of the game this past month is fine or that we don’t hope that the game is fixed ASAP. Voting “no” doesn’t even mean that you’ll continue to support the game with purchase/subs if improvements aren’t made; it just means that some sort of compensation beyond that is unnecessary, a nice extra perhaps, but please, just put out the fire, whether or not we also get free ice cream!

Idk... The statement is "should". It doesn't imply that it is owed to us although as far as business ethics go, they kinda do owe us something. If you charge for a service with periodical payments, it has to function and be operational. The game as it is is not functional so the time spent not using the service (which would otherwise be spent using the service if the game was functional) is wasted.

cynicalbutterfly · November 2020

Yes

Normally I'd say no but they did release the Markarth patch knowing full well that it was buggy. Even more buggy than all the others. Everyone expects a certain amount of bugs. It's how things work really. However, some people can't play at all thanks to the crashes ZOS released in their patch. Some of those people pay for the substriction, others do not. A little bit of acknowledgement that ZOS messed up and a gift for everyone's patience will go a long way in satisfying the customers. Doesn't have to be a grand gift. Just something to say thanks and something everyone will appreciate.

Wolfpaw · November 2020

Yes

CleymenZero wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

read the tos

"Should" does not imply a real situation.

Should we be compensated? Of course, anybody saying otherwise, I want then to be my customer. I'll charge for services I won't deliver properly and you'll thank me and defend me for it.

Could we be compensated for our grievances? It is possible although TOS protects from HAVING to.

As far as business ethics go, we absolutely should be compensated.

Two reasons unfortunately -

A fanboy/groupie mentality game devs & the companies they work for get from a decent portion of their customers compared to other industries.

&

Laws have yet to catch up to the gaming industry: consumer protections, gambling, etc..

idk · November 2020

No

Wolfpaw wrote: »

CleymenZero wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

read the tos

"Should" does not imply a real situation.

Should we be compensated? Of course, anybody saying otherwise, I want then to be my customer. I'll charge for services I won't deliver properly and you'll thank me and defend me for it.

Could we be compensated for our grievances? It is possible although TOS protects from HAVING to.

As far as business ethics go, we absolutely should be compensated.

Two reasons unfortunately -

Laws have yet to catch up to the gaming industry, consumer protections, gambling, etc..

Contract law would be what is relevant to the question. Every contract is binding until and unless a judge or jury says otherwise.

Besides, someone posted in this thread they received a refund which means there is no issue. Short of that, we can cancel our sub which is probably much more practical.

Starlight_Whisper · November 2020

So I was just playing another game.. they had hour extra of downtime and agolgized for it. Also gave some things...but big thing was I surprised they said sorry.

CrashTest · November 2020

Yes

I think that recent impromptu double node "event" was meant to be some kind of recompense or at the very least a distraction from all the broken.

MercilessnVexed · November 2020

No

No because then any Tom, ***, or Harry (or Jane) can come in and complain about any ol thing they want, whether or not they are actually having troubles, and then get compensated for nothing.

No because many players already have some outrageous and unrealistic expectations based on their personal entitlement ideas. Yes, we want a game that delivers what it says it will do. It would be nice if that happened with every game. It doesn't. Get over it.

CleymenZero · November 2020

Yes

idk wrote: »

Wolfpaw wrote: »

CleymenZero wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

read the tos

"Should" does not imply a real situation.

Should we be compensated? Of course, anybody saying otherwise, I want then to be my customer. I'll charge for services I won't deliver properly and you'll thank me and defend me for it.

Could we be compensated for our grievances? It is possible although TOS protects from HAVING to.

As far as business ethics go, we absolutely should be compensated.

Two reasons unfortunately -

Laws have yet to catch up to the gaming industry, consumer protections, gambling, etc..

Contract law would be what is relevant to the question. Every contract is binding until and unless a judge or jury says otherwise.

Besides, someone posted in this thread they received a refund which means there is no issue. Short of that, we can cancel our sub which is probably much more practical.

Consumer protections would supersede contract laws so his point still stands.

If there was an improvement in consumer protections, unless there are specific provisions grandfathering certains clauses in the contract (that would require some successful lobbying), some agreements would be rendered illegal (not in accordance to the law) and would be then null.

CleymenZero · November 2020

Yes

Beastygrowls wrote: »

No because then any Tom, ***, or Harry (or Jane) can come in and complain about any ol thing they want, whether or not they are actually having troubles, and then get compensated for nothing.

No because many players already have some outrageous and unrealistic expectations based on their personal entitlement ideas. Yes, we want a game that delivers what it says it will do. It would be nice if that happened with every game. It doesn't. Get over it.

[snip]

Technical difficulties that make the game (a service) unplayable is not the same as your epaulets clipping through your guild tabard and breaking the immersion of your RP.

We're talking dozens upon dozens of endgame players that can't raid. Many career crafters that can't do writs and all. Like people that do things other than solo questing and all.

Case in point, did a vCR today and although the team would've had no difficulty clearing, we had 9 crashes in less than 45 minutes. We endeavor up calling it.

There's an obvious threshold that shouldn't need to be mentioned for you to understand that in principle, compensation for a completely broken service, would be perfectly adequate. [snip]

[snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting and Bashing]

CleymenZero · November 2020

Yes

Vorpan wrote: »

No.

It's a choice to give them money and time. If one isn't happy with the state of the game then they can refuse to pay for eso+, just as they can chose to play something else.

If all the people that are upset with the game would stop supporting the game, you wouldn't have a game to play with anymore.

Let's imagine the 57% that answered "Yes" (at time of writing) counted as unhappy/dissatisfied with the game. If they left or stopped supporting the game, the game would lose the majority of its player base. Do you think ZOS would continue development for the game? Doesn't seem likely or at least what would be developed would likely be proportional to the player base.

I find the "if you're not happy just leave" line so short-sighted.

Thoragaal · November 2020

Other

If by "compensated" you mean "fixed the game", sure. Otherwise I couldn't care less about yet another color/skin/mount/hat/pet; you know, the things that once felt unique.
I don't think it's the devs fault though. I believe they're doing the best they can with what they have.
I do believe however that it's a structural problem based on decisions made higher up that's causing it.

lemonizzle · November 2020

There is no point in "acknowledgement", " uh oh sorry we messed up, here is x y thing as compensation" messages and actions, if Zos will continue business as usual. Barely any communication, acting like it's all fine, game gets worse after each 'fix' and I could go on.
No I don't want a psijic order oak log as a pet, I'd like to if possible play the game I have invested so many resources in, please.

hafgood · November 2020

No

I can see from the comments that many of you have no idea about software development especially of a game that is as old as this one with huge amounts of coding much of which will have been bolted on.

When programming something of this size changes to one routine can have a massive effect on what appears to be a totally unrelated routine simply due to how its all bolted together.

When they add a new zone what they will test is the new zone, they won't be testing dragonstar arena or Spindle 1 so won't pick up on those issues. The PTS is largely a waste of time, it is never going to get the level of concurrent users needed for a proper stress test and is probably on an older server with lower capacity to the rest of the game.

It is disappointing that they didn't pick up on the inventory issues when putting stuff into the bank but unless they put something into the bank while testing they wouldn't have spotted it. The bugged boss was the biggest disappointment as that shouldn't have slipped past their testing.

The rest? It happens, we've had one patch that improves stability, will no doubt get another in the next couple of weeks that improves it more.

It would just be nice if they came out and said that this patch was below their expected standards and they are putting controls in place to try to make sure it doesn't happen again.

preevious · November 2020

Other

CleymenZero wrote: »

Vorpan wrote: »

No.

It's a choice to give them money and time. If one isn't happy with the state of the game then they can refuse to pay for eso+, just as they can chose to play something else.

If all the people that are upset with the game would stop supporting the game, you wouldn't have a game to play with anymore.

Let's imagine the 57% that answered "Yes" (at time of writing) counted as unhappy/dissatisfied with the game. If they left or stopped supporting the game, the game would lose the majority of its player base. Do you think ZOS would continue development for the game? Doesn't seem likely or at least what would be developed would likely be proportional to the player base.

I find the "if you're not happy just leave" line so short-sighted.

Indeed, I see your point, and you're right.
I think you fail to account, however, that all the people upset with this game is a mere fraction of the player base.
Happy folks complains less, and thus you hear far less about them.
Most people I hang with in game are actually quite satisfied.

The proportion is thus quite small, and if all of them were leaving, nothing would really change.

Not that I'm not sorry for those who aren't, of course. I'm aying the urgency is far as dire as you might believe when reading the forums.

As they say, here : "les gens heureux n'ont pas d'histoires" (happy folks tell no stories)

Katheriah · November 2020

Yes

hafgood wrote: »

I can see from the comments that many of you have no idea about software development especially of a game that is as old as this one with huge amounts of coding much of which will have been bolted on.

When programming something of this size changes to one routine can have a massive effect on what appears to be a totally unrelated routine simply due to how its all bolted together.

When they add a new zone what they will test is the new zone, they won't be testing dragonstar arena or Spindle 1 so won't pick up on those issues. The PTS is largely a waste of time, it is never going to get the level of concurrent users needed for a proper stress test and is probably on an older server with lower capacity to the rest of the game.

It is disappointing that they didn't pick up on the inventory issues when putting stuff into the bank but unless they put something into the bank while testing they wouldn't have spotted it. The bugged boss was the biggest disappointment as that shouldn't have slipped past their testing.

The rest? It happens, we've had one patch that improves stability, will no doubt get another in the next couple of weeks that improves it more.

It would just be nice if they came out and said that this patch was below their expected standards and they are putting controls in place to try to make sure it doesn't happen again.

It's my dayjob.

It's literally max. an hour work to test vDSA x4 people. The LA issues are visible right after you do anything combat related. There were multiple gamebreaking bugs REPORTED on PTS that still made it to live. Remember that voidmother boss? Shizzle was going down in zone and they decided to do some sort of hotfix anyway. The issue was known for weeks and suddenly when it's live it can be fixed. This is just a big joke.

This patch was not just 'below expected standards'. This patch is unacceptable. If my team pulls of this trick, we will have some explaining to do to our users, including an excuse and our next steps to take. The person that has this job at ZOS is @ZOS_GinaBruno and she also happened to promise the community more transparancy last time. I don't see that happening right now.

We should not be thanking ZOS for simply being able to login to this crashfest meme.

Niaver · November 2020

Yes, with a working game.

ZOS_ConnorG · November 2020

Greetings all,

After review we have had to edit or remove several posts for rule violations, mainly Bashing. Ensure when engaging in a discussion that you keep said discussion civil, constructive, and within the rules. Non-Constructive posts and discussions do not help the situation and can get in the way of useful discussion.

You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.

agegarton · November 2020

Yes

I would ordinarily answer "no" - which has nothing to do with Terms and Conditions and more to do with reasonable expectations as a consumer and gamer. Terms will always say that compensation doesn't apply - so to those of you citing the terms we signed up to..... well, get a grip people!

However....... overall performance of the game on the PC/EU server in particular (which is what I have sight of) has been so poor that I think we're at the point where it would be reasonable for ZoS to provide some sort of compensation package especially for players who have been with the game a long time (e.g. since the start) and who have stuck by it. It's never going to be more than a token, I'm sure, but it would represent so much more and would buy some good faith.

Frankly, it's high time that certain issues were resolved fundamentally and that communication with the player base was significantly improved from what we see today.

redlink1979 · November 2020

The only thing I truly want is that ZOS fixes the in-game bugs as fast as they fix the Crown Store bugs...