Armor Skills are unbalanced

master_vanargand · November 2020

The Light Armor passive skill adds Spell Resistance.
The Heavy Armor passive skill adds Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance.
But, the Medium Armor?

Physical Resistance should be added to the Medium Armor passive skill.

TBois · November 2020

The medium armor skill is used frequently in pvp. There is even good arguments for both morphs of the medium armor skill depending on the build.

master_vanargand · November 2020

TBois wrote: »

The medium armor skill is used frequently in pvp. There is even good arguments for both morphs of the medium armor skill depending on the build.

But PvP is Heavy Armor Meta with proc sets.

Malacath's Band of Brutality + proc damage sets + Heavy Armor = high DPS and high Resistance build.

This build easily kills Medium Armor builds.
I think adding Physical Resistance to the Medium Armor passive skill will improve the balance of PvP.

idk · November 2020

Medium armor gains defensive bonuses via other means such as a reduced cost for roll dodging. It would seem medium armor is about mobility and sneaking which is more evident when looking at the other passives to gain a more complete picture.

Saubon · November 2020

master_vanargand wrote: »

The Light Armor passive skill adds Spell Resistance.
The Heavy Armor passive skill adds Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance.
But, the Medium Armor?

Physical Resistance should be added to the Medium Armor passive skill.

reduced cost of dodge roll + sprint speed bonus > 1812 resistances (which is roughly 3% damage mitigation)
+ you can use shuffle

EDIT: medium armor might not be so usefull in proc meta, but thats issue with proc sets and not armor passives

master_vanargand · November 2020

idk wrote: »

Medium armor gains defensive bonuses via other means such as a reduced cost for roll dodging. It would seem medium armor is about mobility and sneaking which is more evident when looking at the other passives to gain a more complete picture.

But it's true that Medium Armor build die easily with proc sets.
Because roll dodge doesn't make sense for AoE.

Syvarra's Scales(Heavy Armor) + Unleashed Terror + Maelstrom 2h with Stampede(AoE) = AoE high damage dots combo.

It is meta proc sets of PvP.

Zer0_CooL · November 2020

- Reduces the cost of Roll Dodge by 4% for each piece of Medium Armor equipped. Current bonus: 0%.

Medium armor mitigates damage by dodging. There is no need to stack resistences.

master_vanargand wrote: »

Because roll dodge doesn't make sense for AoE.

Evasion
Shroud yourself in mist to gain Major Evasion, reducing damage from area attacks by 20% for 20 seconds.

master_vanargand · November 2020

Saubon wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

The Light Armor passive skill adds Spell Resistance.
The Heavy Armor passive skill adds Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance.
But, the Medium Armor?

Physical Resistance should be added to the Medium Armor passive skill.

reduced cost of dodge roll + sprint speed bonus > 1812 resistances (which is roughly 3% damage mitigation)
+ you can use shuffle

EDIT: medium armor might not be so usefull in proc meta, but thats issue with proc sets and not armor passives

Shuffle is overrated.
There are many Meidum Armor builds in PvP that do not use Shuffle.
And I'm talking about passive armor abilities.

master_vanargand · November 2020

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

- Reduces the cost of Roll Dodge by 4% for each piece of Medium Armor equipped. Current bonus: 0%.

Medium armor mitigates damage by dodging. There is no need to stack resistences.

master_vanargand wrote: »

Because roll dodge doesn't make sense for AoE.

Evasion
Shroud yourself in mist to gain Major Evasion, reducing damage from area attacks by 20% for 20 seconds.

Medium Armor builds die if unavoidable with roll dodge.
You can't roll dodge forever, and you can't avoid AoE.
Shuffling doesn't make sense as there are so many proc sets.
I have rarely seen enemy players using shuffle lately in PvP.

Firstmep · November 2020

Medium armor by default has 2/3 of the resistance of heavy(before passives).
It doesnt need any more resists.
Like others have said, most stamina players gravitate towards heavy due to proc sets, wether its Beacuse you use them or you want protection aganist then.

Zer0_CooL · November 2020

master_vanargand wrote: »

Medium Armor builds die if unavoidable with roll dodge.
You can't roll dodge forever, and you can't avoid AoE.
Shuffling doesn't make sense as there are so many proc sets.
I have rarely seen enemy players using shuffle lately in PvP.

Its not like light armor have higher esistance than medium, and light armor dies if they have no shields up, which got massively nerfed in the past. You too, cant shield forever.

The_Camper · November 2020

Armor passives were pretty much balanced before this proc *** meta. Remove proc sets = balanced again

master_vanargand · November 2020

Firstmep wrote: »

Medium armor by default has 2/3 of the resistance of heavy(before passives).
It doesnt need any more resists.
Like others have said, most stamina players gravitate towards heavy due to proc sets, wether its Beacuse you use them or you want protection aganist then.

PvP has always been a Heavy Armor Meta.
Because Medium Armor doesn't have enough Resitance.

YandereGirlfriend · November 2020

Not related to the passives but does anyone ever use the Heavy Armor active ability?

I can imagine that maybe there's maybe some obscure high-end PvE situation where it might be used but maintaining those otherwise useless morphs for just that one purpose seems misguided.

Unless people actually do use those skills, in which case I would color myself surprised.

master_vanargand · November 2020

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

Medium Armor builds die if unavoidable with roll dodge.
You can't roll dodge forever, and you can't avoid AoE.
Shuffling doesn't make sense as there are so many proc sets.
I have rarely seen enemy players using shuffle lately in PvP.

Its not like light armor have higher esistance than medium, and light armor dies if they have no shields up, which got massively nerfed in the past. You too, cant shield forever.

There are classes and builds that can be shielded forever, but that's another story.
I think the Heavy Armor passive is too strong in PvP.

Zer0_CooL · November 2020

master_vanargand wrote: »

There are classes and builds that can be shielded forever, but that's another story.
I think the Heavy Armor passive is too strong in PvP.

You try to fix a hole by tearing down the wall. Just fix the actual problem and nerf proc sets. This has nothing to do with a aledgedly weak medium armor.

master_vanargand · November 2020

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Not related to the passives but does anyone ever use the Heavy Armor active ability?

I can imagine that maybe there's maybe some obscure high-end PvE situation where it might be used but maintaining those otherwise useless morphs for just that one purpose seems misguided.

Unless people actually do use those skills, in which case I would color myself surprised.

Until you pointed out, all the earthlings forgot about it.
Certainly it requires a Buff.

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

There are classes and builds that can be shielded forever, but that's another story.
I think the Heavy Armor passive is too strong in PvP.

You try to fix a hole by tearing down the wall. Just fix the actual problem and nerf proc sets. This has nothing to do with a aledgedly weak medium armor.

PvP has always been a Heavy Armor Meta.
Especially stamina builds tend to use heavy armor because the medium armor is too weak.

Zer0_CooL · November 2020

master_vanargand wrote: »

PvP has always been a Heavy Armor Meta.
Especially stamina builds tend to use heavy armor because the medium armor is too weak.

No not always. And what you are asking for is a medium armor with the advantage of heavy armor. How the hell is this supposed to be change for the good. Same tanky builds with even more damage?!

master_vanargand · November 2020

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

PvP has always been a Heavy Armor Meta.
Especially stamina builds tend to use heavy armor because the medium armor is too weak.

No not always. And what you are asking for is a medium armor with the advantage of heavy armor. How the hell is this supposed to be change for the good. Same tanky builds with even more damage?!

High DPS tanky builds are easy to make with Malacath's Band of Brutality.

Zer0_CooL · November 2020

master_vanargand wrote: »

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

PvP has always been a Heavy Armor Meta.
Especially stamina builds tend to use heavy armor because the medium armor is too weak.

No not always. And what you are asking for is a medium armor with the advantage of heavy armor. How the hell is this supposed to be change for the good. Same tanky builds with even more damage?!

High DPS tanky builds are easy to make with Malacath's Band of Brutality.

Which will be even easier with a resistance buff of medium armor. You dont make any sense mate.

master_vanargand · November 2020

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

PvP has always been a Heavy Armor Meta.
Especially stamina builds tend to use heavy armor because the medium armor is too weak.

No not always. And what you are asking for is a medium armor with the advantage of heavy armor. How the hell is this supposed to be change for the good. Same tanky builds with even more damage?!

High DPS tanky builds are easy to make with Malacath's Band of Brutality.

Which will be even easier with a resistance buff of medium armor. You dont make any sense mate.

However, the game balance will improve.
It's true that the Armor passive is unbalanced now.

Saubon · November 2020

I don't know man, rollblades and stamsorcs run medium armor and they are quite dominant in BGs (and BGs are non-CP so everyone is squishier)

Bashev · November 2020

I dont think that the resistance is the problem for medium armor. People use heavy for health bonus, better healing and nice health recovery which is very powerful with the nerfed healing.

On top of that the new buffs add 40% recovery which is twice time stronger than 5 medium.

Actually before the procs set meta medium was way better than heavy for stamina.

techyeshic · November 2020

I used to use medium all the time. 5he only thing that changed was so much free proc damage, it winds up being a heavier resource drain to evade, heal, and attack while unable to put proc users on the defensive than it is to just apply procs by doing nothing. And proc users do not benefit as much by added damage as the procs only scale off malacath

Dracane · November 2020

Giving medium armor even more surivability? I already find it overtuned for pvp. It offers so much survival with roll dodges, speed, increased healing from weapon damage and major evasion. In good hands, it is the hardest armor to defeat.

It always bugged me how they basically balanced light armor and medium armor to have the same damage. But they forget that medium offers a lot more suvival. So the only right thing is to give light armor more damage and sustain rather than equal. Right now its not fair at all for how squishy light armor is. There is a reason for stamina metas.

Bergzorn · November 2020

Dracane wrote: »

Giving medium armor even more surivability? I already find it overtuned for pvp. It offers so much survival with roll dodges, speed, increased healing from weapon damage and major evasion. In good hands, it is the hardest armor to defeat.

It always bugged me how they basically balanced light armor and medium armor to have the same damage. But they forget that medium offers a lot more suvival. So the only right thing is to give light armor more damage and sustain rather than equal. Right now its not fair at all for how squishy light armor is. There is a reason for stamina metas.

Light armor got sprint cost reduction a few patches ago. I was genuinely surprised (and happy) that this went into the passives of light armor, and not, thematically fitting, to medium armor.

Edit: Thinking about it, adding ~5% Break-Free cost reduction per piece of light armor worn to the passives would go a long way to empower light armor in no CP PvP. No one in their right mind could claim that light armor is weak after this change.

Dracane · November 2020

Bergzorn wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Giving medium armor even more surivability? I already find it overtuned for pvp. It offers so much survival with roll dodges, speed, increased healing from weapon damage and major evasion. In good hands, it is the hardest armor to defeat.

It always bugged me how they basically balanced light armor and medium armor to have the same damage. But they forget that medium offers a lot more suvival. So the only right thing is to give light armor more damage and sustain rather than equal. Right now its not fair at all for how squishy light armor is. There is a reason for stamina metas.

Light armor got sprint cost reduction a few patches ago. I was genuinely surprised (and happy) that this went into the passives of light armor, and not, thematically fitting, to medium armor.

Edit: Thinking about it, adding ~5% Break-Free cost reduction per piece of light armor worn to the passives would go a long way to empower light armor in no CP PvP. No one in their right mind could claim that light armor is weak after this change.

It certainly was a welcome change. Though I feel that light armor has no identity. Medium armor has dodging and mobility as their defensive strategy. Heavy armor has straight up resistence and more healing as their strategy. And light armor? Neither healing nor true mobility. Probably damage shields judging by annulment? But then they randomly give it a pitiful amount of spell resistence rather than damage shield strength or magicka.

Sprint cost also barely has in combat relevance. You can chase for a bit less, but you won't just casually sprint away from danger. It adds no combat tankiness unlike medium and heavy armor.

JayKwellen · November 2020

master_vanargand wrote: »

@master_vanargand
PvP has always been a Heavy Armor Meta.
Especially stamina builds tend to use heavy armor because the medium armor is too weak.

Is it though?

I legitimately only run medium on my stamina characters (stamDK and stamden) and never saw any reason to use heavy before. I've tried it a couple times, but never liked it and always moved back. They're all incredibly tanky even in medium and you're sacrificing a decent amount of crit, cheaper roll dodge and ability cost, and 15% weapon damage for what? A couple thousand more resistances, 8% healing, and 25% more resource restore from heavies? I mean sure that helps, but if you're fighting outnumbered you shouldn't be trying to facetank the zerg all at once anyway, and no amount of resistances or +healing% is going to help you if you insist on standing in the open getting beat on.

Medium has plenty of survivability against a small number of people, which is all you should be facing at one time anyway -- unless you're getting focused by a couple legitimate beasts and unable to break them up or LOS them, in which case even heavy armor ain't gonna save you from the death recap screen. On it's own evasion provides plenty of damage reduction against necros, templars, and wardens, the increased weapon damage from medium lowers the gap between the healing output of medium and heavy anyway, and between the cost reduction and weaving in off-balance heavy attacks I don't think I've ever had issues with sustain either. I know some classes, particularly DK and Warden, can synergize with heavy better, but it's still not a requirement. Plus you're so damn slow. Being able to quickly extricate yourself from the ulti-dump will always be a better survivability option than trying to tank through it.

The vast majority of 'legitimately very good players' I encounter in Cyro run medium too, even now during the ongoing procpocalypse. The types of people I usually run into in heavy builds are people trying to tank up and get carried by their proc sets, or people trying to tank up to hide their own issues. The stamina character purposely using heavy because it's a part of their otherwise well thought out build that synergizes with their chosen playstyle are a rarity.

SOLDIER_1stClass · November 2020

Just tone down the penalty for roll dodge or remove it, and up Mediums armor crit or add weapon damage to it, boost light armor sustain

Add a damage reduction penalty to heavy armor, shouldn't be doing damage anyways. And if medium has a penalty to its evasion heavy can take a hit to its damage with a damage reduction penalty, there problem solved.