new macs with 64 bit arm processors

linuxlady · November 2020

And remind us all again, how old is the hero engine?

Eedat · November 2020

linuxlady wrote: »

https://www.reddit.com/r/macgaming/comments/jw5ir4/wow_on_m1_macbook_air_4050fps_on_high/

nobody has a better integrated cpu/gpu on the market today. their arm chips really look to be on par with a ryzen 5 apu but at a fraction of the size and power consumption. They aren't atrocious.... they aren't looking ideal for gaming but they have made a great initial offering on mac and i def look forward to the new mac desktops. presumably they would offer something significantly more powerful than an m1 for a 27inch imac desktop with a 5k or maybe a 6k display...

If they get it working to the point that ios and/or tvos apps are fully integrated and working flawlessly, i could see a mac mini in my future for sure. it would be a bit of a downgrade compared to my current gaming rig but it would also use a whole lot less juice and take up a whole lot less space..

i have to admit that i'd prefer to game with linux but this initial offering from apple is really impressive.

It's only impressive to Mac standards because Mac's hardware is ridiculously weak. Awesome screens, anemic hardware, absolutely insane prices. Thats how it goes for Mac.

To PC standards, it's extremely weak. At the end of the day it doesn't matter whether its a discrete GPU or not. We're on the forums for a video game so video game performance is going to get the spotlight. From a gaming standpoint, the M1 chips are garbage when compared to a PC with a discrete GPU. The M1 chips cant even top todays super budget option GPUs. It gets smoked by a 1650. Not even a 1650 super, the base 1650 lol. This isn't a tech review forum where we all pretend to be impressed that one laptop is 0.3lbs lighter or that one uses 20 watts less power.

[snip] "40-50 fps" on a 16 year old game is straight up atrocious. Again, it's only impressive to Mac gaming standards. To any other gaming standards it's horrendous.

[Edited for Baiting]

linuxlady · November 2020

Eedat wrote: »

linuxlady wrote: »

https://www.reddit.com/r/macgaming/comments/jw5ir4/wow_on_m1_macbook_air_4050fps_on_high/

nobody has a better integrated cpu/gpu on the market today. their arm chips really look to be on par with a ryzen 5 apu but at a fraction of the size and power consumption. They aren't atrocious.... they aren't looking ideal for gaming but they have made a great initial offering on mac and i def look forward to the new mac desktops. presumably they would offer something significantly more powerful than an m1 for a 27inch imac desktop with a 5k or maybe a 6k display...

If they get it working to the point that ios and/or tvos apps are fully integrated and working flawlessly, i could see a mac mini in my future for sure. it would be a bit of a downgrade compared to my current gaming rig but it would also use a whole lot less juice and take up a whole lot less space..

i have to admit that i'd prefer to game with linux but this initial offering from apple is really impressive.

It's only impressive to Mac standards because Mac's hardware is ridiculously weak. Awesome screens, anemic hardware, absolutely insane prices. Thats how it goes for Mac.

To PC standards, it's extremely weak. At the end of the day it doesn't matter whether its a discrete GPU or not. We're on the forums for a video game so video game performance is going to get the spotlight. From a gaming standpoint, the M1 chips are garbage when compared to a PC with a discrete GPU. The M1 chips cant even top todays super budget option GPUs. It gets smoked by a 1650. Not even a 1650 super, the base 1650 lol. This isn't a tech review forum where we all pretend to be impressed that one laptop is 0.3lbs lighter or that one uses 20 watts less power.

[snip] "40-50 fps" on a 16 year old game is straight up atrocious. Again, it's only impressive to Mac gaming standards. To any other gaming standards it's horrendous.

[Edited for Baiting]

these chips arent garbage and are on par with ryzen 5 apus and both run eso very well. The usff that apple uses delivers great performance. you just sound sour. your opinions dont reflect reality one bit. If it had descended into anything other than a plea for Zeni to see the value of supporting this new tech it's largely of your doing, not mine. Seems like if you dont want it to descend into something else, then perhaps you should rethink your hostile responses.

Ohtimbar · November 2020

The new M1 is really quite excellent, and ZOS could potentially have supported it but chose not to try. To be fair, I think it's a perfectly reasonable decision given the age and technical state of the game.

linuxlady · November 2020

Shootsfoot wrote: »

linuxlady wrote: »

Shootsfoot wrote: »

linuxlady wrote: »

https://www.reddit.com/r/macgaming/comments/jw5ir4/wow_on_m1_macbook_air_4050fps_on_high/

Meanwhile, WOW natively supports mac m1 chips and gets great performance reviews..

https://youtu.be/GTtOf3RHrgo

You can't possibly make a fair comparison of WoW's graphics and ESO's graphics.

im saying they have wow available natively for mac m1 chipset and eso doesn't. i make no claims beyond that.

And I'm saying there is a reason for that. WoW's graphics are running on a 16 year old engine.

and how old in the hero engine? please remind us....

linuxlady · November 2020

Ohtimbar wrote: »

The new M1 is really quite excellent, and ZOS could potentially have supported it but chose not to try. To be fair, I think it's a perfectly reasonable decision given the age and technical state of the game.

It's a shame though i think you have some merits here. The chip would do quite well with it though and i bet it does well even with the use of rosetta 2.... i keep hoping someone posts a video on youtube showing it running well on rosetta.

Eedat · November 2020

these chips arent garbage and are on par with ryzen 5 apus and both run eso very well. The usff that apple uses delivers great performance. you just sound sour. your opinions dont reflect reality one bit. If it had descended into anything other than a plea for Zeni to see the value of supporting this new tech it's largely of your doing, not mine. Seems like if you dont want it to descend into something else, then perhaps you should rethink your hostile responses.

My doing? You're legit trolling at this point. You're the one posting all the links about how the M1's gaming performance is actually really good lol.

I dont know how many different ways to say this. From a gaming standpoint (please note again, from a gaming standpoint), these chips are straight up garbage. I've already made this distinction in this thread: Macs aren't bad but they are utter garbage at specifically gaming. Macs are not designed to be gaming rigs. They are complete ass for gaming.

But you then go on to talk and talk and talk about how it's gaming performance is actually really good. The proof you provide is a benchmark where it gets smoked by a 1650 and a video of it running a 16 year old game at 45 fps. That is absolutely atrocious gaming performance for 2020.

I dont know what else to tell you. You (not me) turned this thread to the purpose of telling us all how awesome Mac's M1 is for gaming while the very proof you cite shows how abysmal it actually is. I dont get it. Why are you trying so desperately to preach how great it's gaming performance is when it's obviously very poor? Macs are good at some things, but gaming is 100% not one of them.

Don't get a Mac for gaming

idk · November 2020

linuxlady wrote: »

https://www.reddit.com/r/macgaming/comments/jw5ir4/wow_on_m1_macbook_air_4050fps_on_high/

Meanwhile, WOW natively supports mac m1 chips and gets great performance reviews..

Eedat wrote: »

linuxlady wrote: »

https://www.reddit.com/r/macgaming/comments/jw5ir4/wow_on_m1_macbook_air_4050fps_on_high/

Meanwhile, WOW natively supports mac m1 chips and gets great performance reviews..

https://youtu.be/GTtOf3RHrgo

WoW is 16 years old and can be run on a toaster. You can run WoW on practically anything made in the past 10 years.

What Blizzard does and doesn't bring over is their business. The point is Mac makes it a point to make life absolute hell for developers by switching it's architecture practically on a schedule to force exclusivity. It's not developer's responsibility to buy into Mac's cat and mouse game. The fallout of whatever drops Mac support is 100% on Mac's head, not the game devs.

Also, the M1 chip's performance is equivalent to budget tier GPUs that are almost 5 years old. That's supposed to be impressive in 2020?

Don't buy a Mac for gaming. They are absolutely and utterly atrocious at it. They aren't designed for it. It's like trying to use a screwdriver to drive a nail.

nobody has a better integrated cpu/gpu on the market today. their arm chips really look to be on par with a ryzen 5 apu but at a fraction of the size and power consumption. They aren't atrocious.... they aren't looking ideal for gaming but they have made a great initial offering on mac and i def look forward to the new mac desktops. presumably they would offer something significantly more powerful than an m1 for a 27inch imac desktop with a 5k or maybe a 6k display...

If they get it working to the point that ios and/or tvos apps are fully integrated and working flawlessly, i could see a mac mini in my future for sure. it would be a bit of a downgrade compared to my current gaming rig but it would also use a whole lot less juice and take up a whole lot less space..

i have to admit that i'd prefer to game with linux but this initial offering from apple is really impressive.

WoW is not exactly a great standard to go by. As the person, you quoted stated, it is a 16-year-old game that can be run on a toaster, though I would have suggested a potato. Wow is an antique and a great many of us choose to play ESO because we do not want to play an antiquated game.

In other words, the fact WoW runs fine, or even well, on the new Mac chip is not saying much unless that is the game you want to play.

Also, we are not discussing how well Apple does at building integrated chips.

linuxlady wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

AyeshaBelladonna wrote: »

Stadia is not an option for Apple users. There is no iOS support.

You seem to be suggesting that all Apple users are iOS users, which is not true.

However, if you're wanting to run Stadia under iOS, the following might be of interest to you:

https://9to5google.com/2020/11/06/stadia-browser-stadium-iphone-ipad/

i checked the app store on my iphone se 2020 version i cant find stadium browser

but i did find stadia available for download. i bet google will be happy to take the money of people running m1 chips for sure

If the Stadia runs well on the new chip then that can be your access to ESO. However, it may very well be a different experience.

At the end of the day, Apple and Zos both made business decisions. That is all this is. We will see in a few years how many games are ported to Mac.

Yamenstein · November 2020

linuxlady wrote: »

Gattopardo wrote: »

https://elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/59187

"All of this puts a burden on software developers like ZOS to port their products to the new architecture. It is a huge undertaking to port a product as old, large, and complex as ESO to a new CPU, with no certain outcome of success. Because of these factors, we will not be porting ESO to run on the new ARM-based Macs."

Meanwhile WoW got native Silicon support today ...

Guess i may have to check out WOW

Bye bye

linuxlady · November 2020

Eedat wrote: »

these chips arent garbage and are on par with ryzen 5 apus and both run eso very well. The usff that apple uses delivers great performance. you just sound sour. your opinions dont reflect reality one bit. If it had descended into anything other than a plea for Zeni to see the value of supporting this new tech it's largely of your doing, not mine. Seems like if you dont want it to descend into something else, then perhaps you should rethink your hostile responses.

My doing? You're legit trolling at this point. You're the one posting all the links about how the M1's gaming performance is actually really good lol.

I dont know how many different ways to say this. From a gaming standpoint (please note again, from a gaming standpoint), these chips are straight up garbage. I've already made this distinction in this thread: Macs aren't bad but they are utter garbage at specifically gaming. Macs are not designed to be gaming rigs. They are complete ass for gaming.

But you then go on to talk and talk and talk about how it's gaming performance is actually really good. The proof you provide is a benchmark where it gets smoked by a 1650 and a video of it running a 16 year old game at 45 fps. That is absolutely atrocious gaming performance for 2020.

I dont know what else to tell you. You (not me) turned this thread to the purpose of telling us all how awesome Mac's M1 is for gaming while the very proof you cite shows how abysmal it actually is. I dont get it. Why are you trying so desperately to preach how great it's gaming performance is when it's obviously very poor? Macs are good at some things, but gaming is 100% not one of them.

Don't get a Mac for gaming

they are not garbage for gaming. not being your ideal choice does not make them garbage. if they were completeley incapable of playing any games, that would be garbage for gaming but they in fact do quite well and they would do very well for eso too if natively supported and probably will do very well even with rosetta 2

you keep presenting your opinion as fact. your opinion is not fact. you have said it 3x now and still have not offered any evidence, just your opinion.

linuxlady · November 2020

idk wrote: »

linuxlady wrote: »

https://www.reddit.com/r/macgaming/comments/jw5ir4/wow_on_m1_macbook_air_4050fps_on_high/

Meanwhile, WOW natively supports mac m1 chips and gets great performance reviews..

Eedat wrote: »

linuxlady wrote: »

https://www.reddit.com/r/macgaming/comments/jw5ir4/wow_on_m1_macbook_air_4050fps_on_high/

Meanwhile, WOW natively supports mac m1 chips and gets great performance reviews..

https://youtu.be/GTtOf3RHrgo

WoW is 16 years old and can be run on a toaster. You can run WoW on practically anything made in the past 10 years.

What Blizzard does and doesn't bring over is their business. The point is Mac makes it a point to make life absolute hell for developers by switching it's architecture practically on a schedule to force exclusivity. It's not developer's responsibility to buy into Mac's cat and mouse game. The fallout of whatever drops Mac support is 100% on Mac's head, not the game devs.

Also, the M1 chip's performance is equivalent to budget tier GPUs that are almost 5 years old. That's supposed to be impressive in 2020?

Don't buy a Mac for gaming. They are absolutely and utterly atrocious at it. They aren't designed for it. It's like trying to use a screwdriver to drive a nail.

nobody has a better integrated cpu/gpu on the market today. their arm chips really look to be on par with a ryzen 5 apu but at a fraction of the size and power consumption. They aren't atrocious.... they aren't looking ideal for gaming but they have made a great initial offering on mac and i def look forward to the new mac desktops. presumably they would offer something significantly more powerful than an m1 for a 27inch imac desktop with a 5k or maybe a 6k display...

If they get it working to the point that ios and/or tvos apps are fully integrated and working flawlessly, i could see a mac mini in my future for sure. it would be a bit of a downgrade compared to my current gaming rig but it would also use a whole lot less juice and take up a whole lot less space..

i have to admit that i'd prefer to game with linux but this initial offering from apple is really impressive.

WoW is not exactly a great standard to go by. As the person, you quoted stated, it is a 16-year-old game that can be run on a toaster, though I would have suggested a potato. Wow is an antique and a great many of us choose to play ESO because we do not want to play an antiquated game.

In other words, the fact WoW runs fine, or even well, on the new Mac chip is not saying much unless that is the game you want to play.

Also, we are not discussing how well Apple does at building integrated chips.

linuxlady wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

AyeshaBelladonna wrote: »

Stadia is not an option for Apple users. There is no iOS support.

You seem to be suggesting that all Apple users are iOS users, which is not true.

However, if you're wanting to run Stadia under iOS, the following might be of interest to you:

https://9to5google.com/2020/11/06/stadia-browser-stadium-iphone-ipad/

i checked the app store on my iphone se 2020 version i cant find stadium browser

but i did find stadia available for download. i bet google will be happy to take the money of people running m1 chips for sure

If the Stadia runs well on the new chip then that can be your access to ESO. However, it may very well be a different experience.

At the end of the day, Apple and Zos both made business decisions. That is all this is. We will see in a few years how many games are ported to Mac.

and how old is the hero engine?

Eedat · November 2020

they are not garbage for gaming. not being your ideal choice does not make them garbage. if they were completeley incapable of playing any games, that would be garbage for gaming but they in fact do quite well and they would do very well for eso too if natively supported and probably will do very well even with rosetta 2

In what world are you living? It gets smoked by a 1650. A 1650. It's brand new late 2020 processor gets smoked by a 1650.To find a comparable GPU you need to dig into the bargain-tier GPUs of 4 years ago.

The cult of Mac gaming is a strange one. For those out there who can still be saved, for the love of god DO NOT get a Mac for gaming. They are legit dumpster tier for gaming.

JoeCapricorn · November 2020

The new Apple chips use a different machine language, so it isn't exactly a simple matter of adding bits of code here and there to port it to the new processors. With the Intel chips, that machine language is still the same, even if the OS and kernel environment is completely different.

The entire codebase, all of ESO, would need to be recompiled to the ARM instruction set. It's not impossible, but it is hard to do. Expect crashes and worse performance, especially at first, if they were to do this. Because you'll get situations where instructions are called that are incompatible with the ARM processor. There are probably numerous examples of complicated calculations that can be called with a single instruction in x86-64, but would require a whole reworked subroutine in ARM. The acronym of ARM is "Advanced RISC Machine", and RISC itself starts for Reduced Instruction Set Computing. In my opinion, ARM is good for mobile devices and tablets, embedded machines like refrigerators and the touch screens at McDonald's and Wawa (although a lot of embedded machines use a form of Windows, actually, and I know this because I've seen them BSOD - it's kinda hilarious seeing that on electronic billboards, for instance).

WOW is also a complicated game, but it was also around for a lot longer. It's possible Blizzard had been working on the ARM port for a long while.

That's not saying I agree with ZOS's decision (although it really doesn't affect me at all), but I understand the reason for it.

linuxlady · November 2020

Eedat wrote: »

they are not garbage for gaming. not being your ideal choice does not make them garbage. if they were completeley incapable of playing any games, that would be garbage for gaming but they in fact do quite well and they would do very well for eso too if natively supported and probably will do very well even with rosetta 2

In what world are you living? It gets smoked by a 1650. A 1650. It's brand new late 2020 processor gets smoked by a 1650.To find a comparable GPU you need to dig into the bargain-tier GPUs of 4 years ago.

The cult of Mac gaming is a strange one. For those out there who can still be saved, for the love of god DO NOT get a Mac for gaming. They are legit dumpster tier for gaming.

the mac mini gpu rates about equal to an rx 560. my amd computer has an rx 570 and plays very well on eso. your argument has no merits as far as i can tell... the most that can be said of your arguments as far as i can tell is you seem fond of using epithets.

Psiion · November 2020

Greetings all,

Seeing as this thread has derailed into unnecessary back and forth, we have gone ahead and closed it down. Please keep in mind that Baiting is against the Forum's Community Rules, as stated below:

Trolling or Baiting: The act of trolling is defined as something that is created for the intent to provoke conflict, shock others, or to elicit a strong negative or emotional reaction. It’s okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community. If you do not have something constructive or meaningful to add to a discussion, we strongly recommend you refrain from posting in that thread, and find another discussion to participate in instead. It is also not constructive or helpful to publicly call out others and accuse them of trolling, or call them a troll—please refrain from doing so. If you genuinely believe someone is trolling, please report the post or thread to the ESO Team, and leave it at that.

If there are any questions on this topic, please feel free to refer to the official discussion thread here.