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Official Discussion Thread for "Letter from Matt—ESO’s Future Mac Support"

ZOS_SarahHecker
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This is the official discussion thread for the blog article "Letter from Matt—ESO’s Future Mac Support"

Read a letter from Matt Firor, ZOS’s Studio Director, on how we’re changing the way we support ESO on Macs moving forward.
Staff Post
  • BlueRaven
    BlueRaven
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    Terrific. 🙁

    It’s not like Mac support was that great to begin with. Software issues (dramatically dropping frame rates, complete OS system crashes when porting to some areas) that have been present since as far back as Summerset still have not been fixed. And this just seems like an excuse to drop Macs altogether.

    That report is fairly depressing. I can’t imagine that the porting is THAT difficult, it’s not like the system software is vastly different, both the new chip macs and the current ones have the same version of the OS.

    I know the “ink” is not dry yet on the deal, but I am wondering how much the buyout is playing into this.
  • Juju_beans
    Juju_beans
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    Makes you wonder if there is any connection to the Microsoft purchase.......
  • ealdwin
    ealdwin
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Firstmep wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Terrific. 🙁

    It’s not like Mac support was that great to begin with. Software issues (dramatically dropping frame rates, complete OS system crashes when porting to some areas) that have been present since as far back as Summerset still have not been fixed. And this just seems like an excuse to drop Macs altogether.

    That report is fairly depressing. I can’t imagine that the porting is THAT difficult, it’s not like the system software is vastly different, both the new chip macs and the current ones have the same version of the OS.

    I know the “ink” is not dry yet on the deal, but I am wondering how much the buyout is playing into this.

    Likely the Mac player base isn't large enough, and it would take significant developer time as well to port (Eso is a massive game).
    So those together likely point to having little to no monetary gains from a full on port to the new Macs.

    Can't say I'm surprised, the bottom line is always going to be the most important, and likely this decision didn't come from the devs.

    Uh-huh. Meanwhile...

    “Blizzard announces World of Warcraft will run natively on Apple Silicon from day one”

    https://thenextweb.com/plugged/2020/11/17/blizzard-world-of-warcraft-will-run-natively-on-apple-silicon-intel-big-sur-analysis/

    Yeah, considering that other software companies have announced that they have either already begun porting or will soon begin porting, I'm not sold that the issue is 100% to do with porting from one system to the new.

    I mean, it's kind of telling that their solution basically was "Did you hear... ESO's on Stadia!"

    What stands out to me is that ZOS directly mentions that ESO is simply old, large, and complex. It's not surprising that it is (paying attention to the patch notes made it pretty clear). But, seeing ZOS admit that the game is in a state that porting could cause issues, combined with how recent patches only cause more issues, does raise some concern for how long the game can continue in its current state.
  • etchedpixels
    etchedpixels
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    Does not surprise me - if they are struggling to maintain and fix the existing code why make the challenge worse. In addition of course Zenimax is being bought by Microsoft who probably would prefer people ran Windows.

    I'd expect most older games not to get ports. Too much work, not enough return. It's a giant a myth that you 'just recompile'. Your python app might move over trivially but giant compiled programs sure don't - even if you can get all the libraries and tools you depend upon from third parties for the target.

    I guess it's one way to get Stadia users.
  • soulferin
    soulferin
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    In other words ZOS finally said we don't care? At least I won't be waiting for any great update - in my opinion "support' in this means "we won't improve, just troubleshot" Especially now when it's in unplayable state for me, so I guess it's signal to just drop ESO. Terrible and sad information.
  • soulferin
    soulferin
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    soulferin wrote: »
    In other words ZOS finally said we don't care?

    There's one, and ONLY ONE way to say it "in other words" : it's "the cost/benefit ration of doing this is not good enough in our opinion, so we decided to not do it".
    You'd do the same if you were running a company. Every minute of every day.


    That's not exactly true. First WoW/GW2/FFIV have their own Mac clients in good condition. If ZOS claims that they keep support it means they are keeping costs at the same level - they keep devs hired. They don't need to invest to improve nothing more than time - Apple make sure about it, You don't need to buy any new technology.

    It's more complicated we don't know a lot of variables. One thing we can observe it's they found one "reason" to drop Mac in long term.
  • techyeshic
    techyeshic
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    Don't worry Mac users. It barely runs on Windows as well. And you can still enjoy that via Stadia for a slightly less unpleasant experience of an emulator
  • BlueRaven
    BlueRaven
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    Just a heads up;

    Gizmodo says the new Apple chips are blowing the intel ones away, AND they tested a game on it (Civilization) which ran great.

    https://gizmodo.com/the-macbook-air-was-a-fine-laptop-but-apples-m1-chip-m-1845671122

    So after reading this, either they “updated” Civilization to be optimized on the new macs (doubtful) or that ZOS’s post seems even more of a “we don’t even want to try” type excuse.
    Edited by BlueRaven on November 17, 2020 7:11PM
  • ealdwin
    ealdwin
    ✭✭✭
    Ascarl wrote: »
    If you are angry, be angry with apple. This was foreseeable and TESO will not be the only software not supporting the new apple silicon.

    I don't think there's really a reason to be angry at Apple.

    Apple is a company that is known for taking innovative (and potentially risky) steps even if they don't match with the current industry standard and are perhaps ahead of the trends. Every review I've seen regarding the new M1 chip has been overwhelmingly positive, and plenty of developers (such as Adobe) are already working on porting to native applications. It would ridiculous to assume that all computer manufacturers would always stick to Intel chips, or whatever chip is the current standard. From Apple's perspective, their move to M1 makes perfect sense. They've provided the tools to help developers transition, so it's up to them to make that call. Additionally:
    Let's be real. Apple knows their market isn't in gaming. They may make some moves towards it every now and then, but never in the same strength as other markets. They know the people using Macs tend to be mostly creative professionals working on stuff like video and photo editing. They market more towards creators and artists. If they can get game developers to make games for Mac and Phones, then great! Awesome!
    But they know that PC has the hold that it does on the gaming market, and that isn't going to change anytime soon.

    And ZOS's perspective and reasoning also makes just as much sense to them. They know the code that ESO is running on is a bogged down years old mess that becomes unstable with every patch. They even admitted as much in the letter. From their perspective, while the tools are out there to port, they also have numbers and data that suggests that doing so wouldn't even be worth the risk financially. Heck, the code is in a state where porting might cause further instabilities. ZOS higher ups don't see porting being worth the risk or the effort. (Maybe there's a bit of MS influence there, but not as much as people think)

    Neither company is really doing anything wrong here. They're just making the decisions that they think is best for the company moving forward. Yeah, it sucks for the Mac Players of ESO, but from what I've heard that isn't anything new. This announcement is just one company reacting to the innovations of another. You can bet if any sort of porting from one chip to another was involved in going to the next-gen consoles, ZOS might have opted not to do that either, depending on the code. On the plus side for Mac users, the higher end iMacs haven't been released with M1s yet, and Intel Macs will still be supported for the time being, and as a plus not Rosetta II seems to be working very well.
    Edited by ealdwin on November 17, 2020 9:29PM
  • BlueRaven
    BlueRaven
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    ✭✭✭
    Ascarl wrote: »
    If you are angry, be angry with apple. This was foreseeable and TESO will not be the only software not supporting the new apple silicon.

    No. I am upset with ESO.

    If Blizz can update their client so can ESO. And saying that the game won’t run on M1 when ALL of the other major mmo’s on Mac are running just fine on it shows that they did not even try to see if it is workable.

    If the native ESO coding is that bad that they have issues updating it (or even running it), then that is ESO’s fault. It says to me that the current client is hobbled together in a slip shod manner.

    Let’s be real here, it’s not like they have to port art assets or sounds. And the M1 macs run using the EXACT SAME OS as the intel ones are running.
    This is not like apple did a total rewrite of their system software. This is simply signs of ESO budget cuts.
  • Mikoto
    Mikoto
    ✭✭✭
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Ascarl wrote: »
    If you are angry, be angry with apple. This was foreseeable and TESO will not be the only software not supporting the new apple silicon.

    No. I am upset with ESO.

    If Blizz can update their client so can ESO. And saying that the game won’t run on M1 when ALL of the other major mmo’s on Mac are running just fine on it shows that they did not even try to see if it is workable.

    If the native ESO coding is that bad that they have issues updating it (or even running it), then that is ESO’s fault. It says to me that the current client is hobbled together in a slip shod manner.

    Let’s be real here, it’s not like they have to port art assets or sounds. And the M1 macs run using the EXACT SAME OS as the intel ones are running.
    This is not like apple did a total rewrite of their system software. This is simply signs of ESO budget cuts.

    Your first problem is using WoW as the rule when in reality WoW is the exception. The engine that WoW uses has been their inhouse thing since the RTS days and entirely designed to be able to work on as many devices it can from the get go.

    ESO having used Hero Engine as a core does not have that luxery. I fully expect the number of MMOs that support Mac to tank to probably just WoW and *maybe* some smaller ones.

    I'm not sure where you are getting that all the Mac MMOs work in m1 when from what I see only WoW has announced native support while the others are still using x86 emulation (which would also work for ESO).
  • Druachan
    Druachan
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    Ascarl wrote: »
    If you are angry, be angry with apple. This was foreseeable and TESO will not be the only software not supporting the new apple silicon.

    No don't think I'll be angry at apple for improving their computer design and making it more efficient. As for other companies, we've been here before with having power pc, and most of the quality software stuck around.
    Say please, before you AAAAAaaaarrrgghhh at me.
  • Druachan
    Druachan
    ✭✭✭
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Ascarl wrote: »
    If you are angry, be angry with apple. This was foreseeable and TESO will not be the only software not supporting the new apple silicon.

    No. I am upset with ESO.

    If Blizz can update their client so can ESO. And saying that the game won’t run on M1 when ALL of the other major mmo’s on Mac are running just fine on it shows that they did not even try to see if it is workable.

    If the native ESO coding is that bad that they have issues updating it (or even running it), then that is ESO’s fault. It says to me that the current client is hobbled together in a slip shod manner.

    Let’s be real here, it’s not like they have to port art assets or sounds. And the M1 macs run using the EXACT SAME OS as the intel ones are running.
    This is not like apple did a total rewrite of their system software. This is simply signs of ESO budget cuts.

    Wasn't Zos supposed to be updating the software to improve performance for about a year now, which is why we all had to re download the full game because it was suppose to be new and improved? Seems to be new and worse.
    Say please, before you AAAAAaaaarrrgghhh at me.
  • Druachan
    Druachan
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    ealdwin wrote: »
    Ascarl wrote: »
    If you are angry, be angry with apple. This was foreseeable and TESO will not be the only software not supporting the new apple silicon.

    I don't think there's really a reason to be angry at Apple.

    Apple is a company that is known for taking innovative (and potentially risky) steps even if they don't match with the current industry standard and are perhaps ahead of the trends. Every review I've seen regarding the new M1 chip has been overwhelmingly positive, and plenty of developers (such as Adobe) are already working on porting to native applications. It would ridiculous to assume that all computer manufacturers would always stick to Intel chips, or whatever chip is the current standard. From Apple's perspective, their move to M1 makes perfect sense. They've provided the tools to help developers transition, so it's up to them to make that call. Additionally:
    Let's be real. Apple knows their market isn't in gaming. They may make some moves towards it every now and then, but never in the same strength as other markets. They know the people using Macs tend to be mostly creative professionals working on stuff like video and photo editing. They market more towards creators and artists. If they can get game developers to make games for Mac and Phones, then great! Awesome!
    But they know that PC has the hold that it does on the gaming market, and that isn't going to change anytime soon.

    And ZOS's perspective and reasoning also makes just as much sense to them. They know the code that ESO is running on is a bogged down years old mess that becomes unstable with every patch. They even admitted as much in the letter. From their perspective, while the tools are out there to port, they also have numbers and data that suggests that doing so wouldn't even be worth the risk financially. Heck, the code is in a state where porting might cause further instabilities. ZOS higher ups don't see porting being worth the risk or the effort. (Maybe there's a bit of MS influence there, but not as much as people think)

    Neither company is really doing anything wrong here. They're just making the decisions that they think is best for the company moving forward. Yeah, it sucks for the Mac Players of ESO, but from what I've heard that isn't anything new. This announcement is just one company reacting to the innovations of another. You can bet if any sort of porting from one chip to another was involved in going to the next-gen consoles, ZOS might have opted not to do that either, depending on the code. On the plus side for Mac users, the higher end iMacs haven't been released with M1s yet, and Intel Macs will still be supported for the time being, and as a plus not Rosetta II seems to be working very well.

    Probably less to do with apple and more to do with Zos looking for an excuse to dump the Mac as a platform. I have an intel MBP its good for another 3-4 years. I can't see zos having a Mac client in 1 year never mind 3-4.
    Say please, before you AAAAAaaaarrrgghhh at me.
  • Nairinhe
    Nairinhe
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    Let's face it, as good ZOS are in the creative department, as bad they are in the technical. They probably just know that they would ruin the game completely if they tried to port it.
  • BlueRaven
    BlueRaven
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    Mikoto wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Ascarl wrote: »
    If you are angry, be angry with apple. This was foreseeable and TESO will not be the only software not supporting the new apple silicon.

    No. I am upset with ESO.

    If Blizz can update their client so can ESO. And saying that the game won’t run on M1 when ALL of the other major mmo’s on Mac are running just fine on it shows that they did not even try to see if it is workable.

    If the native ESO coding is that bad that they have issues updating it (or even running it), then that is ESO’s fault. It says to me that the current client is hobbled together in a slip shod manner.

    Let’s be real here, it’s not like they have to port art assets or sounds. And the M1 macs run using the EXACT SAME OS as the intel ones are running.
    This is not like apple did a total rewrite of their system software. This is simply signs of ESO budget cuts.

    Your first problem is using WoW as the rule when in reality WoW is the exception. The engine that WoW uses has been their inhouse thing since the RTS days and entirely designed to be able to work on as many devices it can from the get go.

    ESO having used Hero Engine as a core does not have that luxery. I fully expect the number of MMOs that support Mac to tank to probably just WoW and *maybe* some smaller ones.

    I'm not sure where you are getting that all the Mac MMOs work in m1 when from what I see only WoW has announced native support while the others are still using x86 emulation (which would also work for ESO).

    If ZOS is being bought out for over 7 billion, they should have some resources.

    Also...

    “FFXIV works perfectly (1440p) according to a japanese player with Mac Mini M1”

    https://www.reddit.com/r/macgaming/comments/jvvpk3/ffxiv_works_perfectly_1440p_according_to_a/

    Gizmodo says civilization runs BETTER on the M1 chip then the intel ones.

    https://gizmodo.com/the-macbook-air-was-a-fine-laptop-but-apples-m1-chip-m-1845671122
  • FrancisCrawford
    FrancisCrawford
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    Reminder: Macs didn't always use Intel chips either.
  • Druachan
    Druachan
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Mikoto wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Ascarl wrote: »
    If you are angry, be angry with apple. This was foreseeable and TESO will not be the only software not supporting the new apple silicon.

    No. I am upset with ESO.

    If Blizz can update their client so can ESO. And saying that the game won’t run on M1 when ALL of the other major mmo’s on Mac are running just fine on it shows that they did not even try to see if it is workable.

    If the native ESO coding is that bad that they have issues updating it (or even running it), then that is ESO’s fault. It says to me that the current client is hobbled together in a slip shod manner.

    Let’s be real here, it’s not like they have to port art assets or sounds. And the M1 macs run using the EXACT SAME OS as the intel ones are running.
    This is not like apple did a total rewrite of their system software. This is simply signs of ESO budget cuts.

    Your first problem is using WoW as the rule when in reality WoW is the exception. The engine that WoW uses has been their inhouse thing since the RTS days and entirely designed to be able to work on as many devices it can from the get go.

    ESO having used Hero Engine as a core does not have that luxery. I fully expect the number of MMOs that support Mac to tank to probably just WoW and *maybe* some smaller ones.

    I'm not sure where you are getting that all the Mac MMOs work in m1 when from what I see only WoW has announced native support while the others are still using x86 emulation (which would also work for ESO).

    If ZOS is being bought out for over 7 billion, they should have some resources.

    Also...

    “FFXIV works perfectly (1440p) according to a japanese player with Mac Mini M1”

    https://www.reddit.com/r/macgaming/comments/jvvpk3/ffxiv_works_perfectly_1440p_according_to_a/

    Gizmodo says civilization runs BETTER on the M1 chip then the intel ones.

    https://gizmodo.com/the-macbook-air-was-a-fine-laptop-but-apples-m1-chip-m-1845671122

    Regardless, of how well the new chip performs, I expect when someone told matt that apple was making its own chips, he thought "great, finally we can get rid of those pesky Mac people and their fancy pants computers" :)
    Say please, before you AAAAAaaaarrrgghhh at me.
  • ealdwin
    ealdwin
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    ESO is not like Doom. It's not going to be running on refrigerators anytime soon, unless those start supporting Stadia.

    You never know. If there are fridges that can analyze the contents of themselves (how that would be possible in a cluttered fridge like mine, I can’t imagine), then it’s not too hard to imagine fridges running Stadia one day.
  • Mikoto
    Mikoto
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Mikoto wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Ascarl wrote: »
    If you are angry, be angry with apple. This was foreseeable and TESO will not be the only software not supporting the new apple silicon.

    No. I am upset with ESO.

    If Blizz can update their client so can ESO. And saying that the game won’t run on M1 when ALL of the other major mmo’s on Mac are running just fine on it shows that they did not even try to see if it is workable.

    If the native ESO coding is that bad that they have issues updating it (or even running it), then that is ESO’s fault. It says to me that the current client is hobbled together in a slip shod manner.

    Let’s be real here, it’s not like they have to port art assets or sounds. And the M1 macs run using the EXACT SAME OS as the intel ones are running.
    This is not like apple did a total rewrite of their system software. This is simply signs of ESO budget cuts.

    Your first problem is using WoW as the rule when in reality WoW is the exception. The engine that WoW uses has been their inhouse thing since the RTS days and entirely designed to be able to work on as many devices it can from the get go.

    ESO having used Hero Engine as a core does not have that luxery. I fully expect the number of MMOs that support Mac to tank to probably just WoW and *maybe* some smaller ones.

    I'm not sure where you are getting that all the Mac MMOs work in m1 when from what I see only WoW has announced native support while the others are still using x86 emulation (which would also work for ESO).

    If ZOS is being bought out for over 7 billion, they should have some resources.

    Also...

    “FFXIV works perfectly (1440p) according to a japanese player with Mac Mini M1”

    https://www.reddit.com/r/macgaming/comments/jvvpk3/ffxiv_works_perfectly_1440p_according_to_a/

    Gizmodo says civilization runs BETTER on the M1 chip then the intel ones.

    https://gizmodo.com/the-macbook-air-was-a-fine-laptop-but-apples-m1-chip-m-1845671122

    [snip]
    Creative_Emu
    4 points
    7 hours ago
    Mind you FFXIV is already running on Mac through Wine, it's not a native Mac game at all. And now it's also going through Rosetta 2. Still it's really good news!

    It's emulation, not natively running. FF14 as stated above doesn't support Macs natively for a while now. What the original post states that they won't be porting ESO natively to ARM. Emulation will be expected to be wonky and they will keep updating the x86 build.

    WoW is the ONLY MMO that has stated to work natively on ARM.

    [edited baiting comments]
    Edited by ZOS_RyanM on November 24, 2020 2:12PM
  • Lumsdenml
    Lumsdenml
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Ascarl wrote: »
    If you are angry, be angry with apple. This was foreseeable and TESO will not be the only software not supporting the new apple silicon.

    No. I am upset with ESO.

    If Blizz can update their client so can ESO. And saying that the game won’t run on M1 when ALL of the other major mmo’s on Mac are running just fine on it shows that they did not even try to see if it is workable.

    If the native ESO coding is that bad that they have issues updating it (or even running it), then that is ESO’s fault. It says to me that the current client is hobbled together in a slip shod manner.

    Let’s be real here, it’s not like they have to port art assets or sounds. And the M1 macs run using the EXACT SAME OS as the intel ones are running.
    This is not like apple did a total rewrite of their system software. This is simply signs of ESO budget cuts.

    First of all, only 10% of all computers run Apple software. 88% run windows. We aren't even talking about gaming, which is probably leans even more heavily toward Windows. Then that 10% changes the entire architecture of their machines? ARM is completely different than x86 architecture, which are the chips in Windows and xbox and playstation. It is the same issue that Microsoft had with their original surface. The original surface ran on ARM and people expected to run their windows programs on it, and they couldn't. MSFT finally gave up and switched their surface machines to conform with the majority of computing machines in the world. Apple has alienated ESO, not the other way around.
    PVE Main:
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  • Toanis
    Toanis
    ✭✭✭✭
    soulferin wrote: »
    In other words ZOS finally said we don't care?.

    To be fair, Apple were the first who made clear that they don't care. Sure, it's a good move for them when all their devices use the same architecture, but come on, 68k, PPC, x86, now ARM. For an independent studio that doesn't specialize in Mac applications, it's just not worth it to bother developing long-term projects for Mac, when they radically change architectures every decade.

    There is a reason why Xbox and Playstation run on x86 architecture, and that has nothing to do with the quality of that CPU design. It's simply a matter of downward compatibility and having experienced programmers making quality games right from the start, because not everyone has the such a loyal customer base as Apple.

    Don't expect too many AAA PC and console titles being ported for ARM-Mac anytime soon. At least not from studios that don't already have their games running on phones as well.
  • linuxlady
    linuxlady
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    Let us not loose sight of the fact they these three machines with the M1 are their initial offering. THeir initial offering is quite impressive. the m1 on a macbook pro and mac mini has a cpu that out performs the current intel versions of the same models released just a year ago. I can hardly wait to see what a 27 inch imac looks like with their new tech in it. The mac mini is a 7 and a half inch square that is 1 and a quarter inches wide and its graphics are about as good as a rx 560. my amd build which is a few years old now has a rx 570 is is massively bigger. I think apple has made the right choice with their recent development of their own silicon and i do think people will see the value of it and support it. Admittedly i would like the ability to install and run linux on it but that's another argument for another time. I truly hope that ESO comes to value what apple has created and sees a platform worth supporting. Even if they don't i bet there are many who will. I am really thoroughly impressed.

    "When it came time to export, I selected max settings and timed it. The 46-second clip, exported at an 8K, 7680 x 4320 resolution with an Apple ProRes 422 HQ codec for a file size total of 16.41 GB, took two minutes and eight seconds. The same clip on my 2016 MacBook Pro took over four minutes to export, and when it was done, I couldn’t play it because it was skipping frames. On the M1 MacBook Pro, I was able to press play immediately and watch the same clip without any stuttering, dropped frames, or other issues."

    https://www.zdnet.com/product/apple-macbook-pro-13-3-m1-8-gb-ram-256-gb-ssd-us/


    perhaps Zeni needs some apple silicon to help them recompile their software for the M1 processors?

    https://wccftech.com/apple-m1-code-compile-results-as-fast-2019-mac-pro/

    wow classic on m1



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