Ideas for improving players' adaptability to standard >combat< mechanics

SilverBride · November 2020

Jeremy wrote: »

"They don't put in a lot of effort to try and win"

I would take issue with that part of the definition because I know a lot of casual players who do put in quite a bit of effort to make their characters perform.

I somewhat identify with that part because I don't care to do Vet Dungeons or Trials, and don't put in any effort to succeed at those. I do, however, gear up for what I do, which is mostly overland content. So I do look at builds, which I follow to varying degrees, and try to get decent armor and weapons, so I can carry my own in Harrowstorms and on World Bosses, and the things I find enjoyable.

Jeremy · November 2020

SilverBride wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

"They don't put in a lot of effort to try and win"

I would take issue with that part of the definition because I know a lot of casual players who do put in quite a bit of effort to make their characters perform.

I somewhat identify with that part because I don't care to do Vet Dungeons or Trials, and don't put in any effort to succeed at those. I do, however, gear up for what I do, which is mostly overland content. So I do look at builds, which I follow to varying degrees, and try to get decent armor and weapons, so I can carry my own in Harrowstorms and on World Bosses, and the things I find enjoyable.

So then you do put in the effort to "win" at the content you actually care about doing, yes? You wouldn't just continuously lose at doing world bosses and Harrow storms and not care. You instead adapt and put in the effort to make your character be able to win by improving your build and gear. So I don't think that part of the definition would apply to you either given how you describe yourself.

I personally would describe a casual player as someone who plays the game in a relaxed and unconcerned fashion. In other words: they play the game when they feel like it and aren't committed to endgame guilds or follow a strict scheduling for events etc. They play off and on as it suits them. I don't think the individual skill of the player has anything to do with it. But as I say: that's just how I understand the word. Everyone is going to have their own ideas about what it means.

CrimsonGTX · November 2020

I personally don't see a issue with their being too many casual players in the game, I myself is more of an advance player but i completely stopped caring about trials progression & etc around summerset or clockwork city patch. I basically play casually now, I still do vet 4 man content, I parse between 85-90k if that matters which i doubt a dummy parse matters to top-end raiders...I do some PvP and that's all really.

ESO will attract many casual players simply because it's a Elder Scrolls game, I know it's a MMO but as long as Elder Scrolls is in the title it will be draw-in casual players who played previous ES games. I'm 100% fine with that, it's the only reason I even played this game since it launch.

Jeremy · November 2020

CrimsonGTX wrote: »

I personally don't see a issue with their being too many casual players in the game, I myself is more of an advance player but i completely stopped caring about trials progression & etc around summerset or clockwork city patch. I basically play casually now, I still do vet 4 man content, I parse between 85-90k if that matters which i doubt a dummy parse matters to top-end raiders...I do some PvP and that's all really.

ESO will attract many casual players simply because it's a Elder Scrolls game, I know it's a MMO but as long as Elder Scrolls is in the title it will be draw-in casual players who played previous ES games. I'm 100% fine with that, it's the only reason I even played this game since it launch.

That's how I understand the word "casual" player as well. Just a player who plays the game casually - meaning off and on as they prefer. They're not locked into a trial group or committed to any type of scheduled progression that requires a committal.

I'm not sure when being "casual" started to become synonymous with playing poorly or being lazy in regards to how you build your character. But unfortunately it has.

SilverBride · November 2020

Jeremy wrote: »

So then you do put in the effort to "win" at the content you actually care about doing, yes? You wouldn't just continuously lose at doing world bosses and Harrow storms and not care. You instead adapt and put in the effort to make your character be able to win by improving your build and gear. So I don't think that part of the definition would apply to you either given how you describe yourself.

That is true. But to some, if you aren't doing Vet content you aren't even playing the game, let alone "winning". Which I take issue with.

Jeremy · November 2020

SilverBride wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

So then you do put in the effort to "win" at the content you actually care about doing, yes? You wouldn't just continuously lose at doing world bosses and Harrow storms and not care. You instead adapt and put in the effort to make your character be able to win by improving your build and gear. So I don't think that part of the definition would apply to you either given how you describe yourself.

That is true. But to some, if you aren't doing Vet content you aren't even playing the game, let alone "winning". Which I take issue with.

Probably so. But I'm sure we can agree that's a silly way to look at it. Because so long as you are being successful at the content you are actually doing then you are by definition winning. You can't lose at content you aren't even doing to begin with.

SilverBride · November 2020

Jeremy wrote: »

You can't lose at content you aren't even doing to begin with.

That should be on a plaque somewhere.

Sylvermynx · November 2020

I went from being a hardcore raider (including some pvp on a pvp-specific server) in WoW and RIFT (without a pvp server in RIFT) to being so burned out on having a job in a game that I dropped WoW in 2013 and RIFT in 2016. And after a couple years off anything but Skyrim, I decided to try ESO.

ESO is fun. But I'm not ever going to do group content or make a job of a game again. I play a lot of hours every day - very VERY casually. I make sure I have decent crafted gear on my 50s, and with this better satellite I can manage weaving just fine (which I couldn't until May of 2019 when I "upgraded" to HughesNet from WildBlue).

I'm not much interested in World Bosses; I like delves, love antiquities and crafting and exploring and quests. Of course, it's a damn good thing I don't want to do competitive endgame - because as I age, my reflexes get worse.... Kind of makes twitchy combat awkward!

FlopsyPrince · November 2020

A big problem is that the random group finder can't limit people to content they are ready for.

You can only control this a small bit while leveling a character, but I would like to be able to exclude DLC dungeons, for example, so I don't get toasted so much by the bosses and end up being a detriment to the group playing. I can handle the regular core dungeons (non-vet) just fine, for example.

====

Another thought on this issue to keep in mind is that this is just like the same "hard core" complaining that happened regularly when I played World of Warcraft. Thus the OP doesn't get to define what is an MMO and what isn't! WoW had the same issue and concerns and it is the "leading" MMO.

Lirkin · November 2020

I play a lot but still consider myself casual.

I like the game for the most part.

I don't like all the changes they are making to classes that make them all more generic but it is better than any other games I can find out there.

I don't group or all the l33t things the non-casuals seem the think they "own", because of people like the OP.

I try to learn the game parts I do but it is getting harder because of the players (non-casuals mostly) that seem to think that all players need to know everything to do dungeons and such. The sources of info on the internet that used to be good sources of info are now obsolete info because the game is constantly in flux with all the changes that happen constantly.

If you don't want to play with the casuals don't play with them.

I don''t buy half the things that ZEOS adds and won't buy content I am not interested in so they better keep making things available that us "casuals" want or there won't be a game to play. Why because my money is as good as any "non-casual" and is needed for them to make money.

Vrienda · November 2020

I’m here exclusively for the solo content. To explore tamriel and it’s lore. I’ve no interest in making the overworld difficult, that almost made me quit back when Veteran Rank zones were a thing and I was going through Shadowfen.

Sylvermynx · November 2020

Vrienda wrote: »

I’m here exclusively for the solo content. To explore tamriel and it’s lore. I’ve no interest in making the overworld difficult, that almost made me quit back when Veteran Rank zones were a thing and I was going through Shadowfen.

Heh. Shadowfen gives me fits today, with the amount of stupid trash mobs packed to the rafters. Hate that zone.... It WOULD have made me quit if it was worse back then (I wasn't playing back then....) I managed to get four characters through there for fishing, but lately I won't even do craft surveys there.

LashanW · November 2020

mairwen85 wrote: »

I think the conversation has simple gone in another direction to the opening post at this point.

Yup, some people (I guess including OP) seems to be talking about incompetent players in group content. (incompetent seems to be what they consider as "casual"). Some are defending their casual and RP playstyle in response and then say they don't do group content. I am lost

However, just a small thing I want to comment on.

Inaya1 wrote: »

3) The standard setting of the game offers the player a very pale look of AOE, so people often don't notice it and die in them. It is clear that there is a setting for adjusting this, but many people do not know this, and as a standard for good they should be made bright red and light green FOR EVERYONE, and only then everyone, as they want, will change the intensity and color for themselves. Oh yes, and the player must be reminded of this the same. There is a fairly extensive selection of settings here, and I still either get confused about them, or generally learn something new from other people until now))

Highly agreed.

Nairinhe wrote: »

AOE are fine. If someone wants to know what killed them, they will find out, if not, no matter how bright colours are, people will continue to stand in stupid.

Highly disagreed.
The default coloring for harmful AOEs is NOT fine for me. Maybe compared to people on your level, my brain is just too slow to process the color information I see on my screen. But for the sake of people on my level (regarding the ability to pay attention to fast paced varying colors), I say default AOE coloring is NOT fine.

It is difficult for me to quickly pay attention to things that are semi-transparent and pale in color, I had a lot of difficulties avoiding deadly AOE circles and cones coming my way and have died plenty of times because of that when I first started doing group content in this game. Especially when I'm fighting something and I'm paying attention to that. In these cases I learnt and understood what killed me, but I just can't notice it quick enough. It's so much easier for something to grab my attention if it is bright and opaque. Still, mechanics such as yellow protection pads in vFL last boss, color symbol mechanic in vMHK hm are exceptionally difficult for me (especially since there is only one colored pad for each group member and I'm often too late when I found a color pad that is not occupied).

I saw someone post a video in discord about a vAS+2 run and I saw the harmful AoEs in that video were bright pink! I was mind-blown by how easy it was to spot those AOEs with that color change. I asked around elite raiders in that discord which addon allowed you to do that (none of them were toxic end gamers as some people in this thread speak of). They told me it was a feature in vanilla game (I was so surprised at this) and gave me step-by-step instructions on how to change it. That was a game changer for me in group content.

And for the record, by now I've cleared all hard mode trials in this game and several dlc dungeon trifecta achievements (excluding greymoor trial coz I don't own that chapter) while doing not exactly easy mechanics such as vCR+ portals and vSS last boss hard mode portals and I can parse fairly high on my main (magSorc). I just have trouble paying attention to pale semi-transparent stuff. I would have never been able to clear stuff like vAS+2 with default AOE coloring.

DT-ARR · November 2020

Rather than focusing on casual players, maybe more focus should be on the reason vets of the game are leaving in droves.

-Crippling performance issues

-Poorly planned DLC / patch releases that flip the meta on its head every 2 months

-Undoing the above mentioned meta in a 180 degree fashion 2 months later when ZOS acknowledges what they broke

-Willfully ignoring skills/sets that are out of date and assuming paying customers are okay with it. I mean ***. This most recent patch COMPLETELY altered class skills with the major/minor changes and ZOS acknowledged they hadnt yet done an audit on the effects. How on earth can that be?? How can a dev team knowingly release what they admit to be an incomplete overhaul??

-Paywall for BiS gear or mechanics

-Non existent communication from dev team regarding player feedback

For whatever reason I linger on these forums almost more than I actually play, but these in my mind are the core issues.

ZOS has succeeded in completely alienating both its core players, and the casual. It’s almost impressive.

Dunning_Kruger · November 2020

SirAndy wrote: »

You're missing a very important point:
The vast majority of ESO players *are* casual players.

And unlike you, i don't use the term casual as an insult ...

I just call them a casual Andy. Ain’t no shame in it.

cynicalbutterfly · November 2020

Vrienda wrote: »

I’m here exclusively for the solo content. To explore tamriel and it’s lore. I’ve no interest in making the overworld difficult, that almost made me quit back when Veteran Rank zones were a thing and I was going through Shadowfen.

One of the best things to do in game is explore. I've soloed since I started back in Morrowind's release. Granted I wasn't as active back then as I am now. Despite being a casual player I do go after those achievements and I do work towards getting my character ready for vet dungeons and trials. But being a casual means I won't whine about failing something. You learn and adapt yourself to the situation. There's no shame in being with a pack of nubs in a dungeon that can't hit worth anything. Everyone starts from somewhere. Too many elitist players forget that.

Also I absolutely hated doing Shadowfen's quests. I don't know what it is about that place but, may the aedra forgive me, I hated everything about it. The rocks, the trees, even the things that lived there.... I avoid going there like it's got the plague.

mairwen85 · November 2020

Jeremy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

"They don't put in a lot of effort to try and win"

I would take issue with that part of the definition because I know a lot of casual players who do put in quite a bit of effort to make their characters perform.

I somewhat identify with that part because I don't care to do Vet Dungeons or Trials, and don't put in any effort to succeed at those. I do, however, gear up for what I do, which is mostly overland content. So I do look at builds, which I follow to varying degrees, and try to get decent armor and weapons, so I can carry my own in Harrowstorms and on World Bosses, and the things I find enjoyable.

So then you do put in the effort to "win" at the content you actually care about doing, yes? You wouldn't just continuously lose at doing world bosses and Harrow storms and not care. You instead adapt and put in the effort to make your character be able to win by improving your build and gear. So I don't think that part of the definition would apply to you either given how you describe yourself.

I personally would describe a casual player as someone who plays the game in a relaxed and unconcerned fashion. In other words: they play the game when they feel like it and aren't committed to endgame guilds or follow a strict scheduling for events etc. They play off and on as it suits them. I don't think the individual skill of the player has anything to do with it. But as I say: that's just how I understand the word. Everyone is going to have their own ideas about what it means.

And that definition is exactly what I've been alluding to. There is a spectrum of skill/ability levels, but "casual" is not a slot on that spectrum. Casual sex isn't bad sex, but sex without strings attached (and can be bad, or good) for example.

wukasick · November 2020

When I was CP300, I started doing dungeons. Some of the groups were straight ***. However, MOST were good people , that understood that I was looking for monster sets. There assholeness has more to do with their own insecurities with sustainability. Just queue with another group... not all of them are Christian trump supporters.

Spark · November 2020

Don't PUG a dungeon if you're not good enough to carry it.

Spark · November 2020

zaria wrote: »

What happens the 25th?

I think it's the Undaunted event. It gives you event tickets for completing random normal or veteran dungeons.

LightYagami · November 2020

I'm a semi-hardcore player. I was on leaderboard a few times, I obtained flawless conqueror title, I like soloing group contents. I agree that the game should respect both casual and hardcore players.

It's fine to make the game casual-friendly, but some tweaks may be needed.

Like some players mentioned already, there should be some kind of tests / prerequisite tasks people should have finished before they're allowed to play more challenging contents, especially group contents.

They should have at least cleared the normal DLC dungeon before being allowed to join the vet version.

I feel bad to see people have no idea what to do on non-death match BGs like relic games. They should pass tutorials before joining these types of games.

Tests or additional requirements are good for both casual and hardcore players. Respect casual and respect hardcore.

colossalvoids · November 2020

1. It's TES so nothing would be done about it I'm pretty sure.

2. Would not agree completely. Descriptions are too small if anything, providing misleading information or using terms that might be alien to ones who just started and even some experienced players with english as their first language shaking their heads at times reading new set bonuses or ability altering in patch notes.

But would agree that players need ability to compare morphs, maybe seeing both tooltips would be the point where newer players will quit using magicka spammables for example on a stamina characters while not being hybrids etc., was my issue way back when I'm started.

3. Standard settings are probably made this way with first point in mind, you would be pretty disgusted by red glowing aoe indicator as a new to mmo tes player. But they might use some middle ground solution as offering to change this setting as a pop up each 150cp you're getting or something talking about it's benefits and offering some popular colouring options for better visibility.

4. ActionDurationReminder SHOULD be base game experience for both pc and consoles no doubt, it's probably the most essential addon that basically everyone needs to start lining up rotations or at least have a semblance of how to manage your resources properly which is a huge issue for new players.

ccfeeling · November 2020

Unlike Everquest and WoW , I think ESO is much more causal than you think lol .

master_vanargand · November 2020

You should be pleased that there are many players.

Paramedicus · November 2020

PUGs getting worse for some time.

altrought i dont think that casual players are the problem. Prob is that noobs get into (vet) content w/o any clue about the game. if first trash pull takes ages to kill, then you know you are with real nublets in team. You dont need to be elitist / have perfect rotation / marry a target dummy to have gear suitable for your level and slot some AoEs.

edit: oh yeah, and I think OP made mistake with name of the topic. He didnt want to flame and called those players 'casual' (while they are noobs). Noob is a player who is unwilling to learn and often shows bad attitude for learning and to other team members, making experience miserable for everyone (the player who neglects/rejects the team play basically). So part of this discussion is unnecessary, because we don't really talk about casuals here (or what casual is or isnt) but about growing numbers of noobs (i.e players who join team game and disrespects its rules).

Zodiarkslayer · November 2020

kathandira wrote: »

Then we toyed with testing out players ability to perform their role. DPS Parses, Tank challenges, Healer discussions. It should had been evident enough when many didn't want to join discord, but when we put others to task, there was a lot of push back about seeing their Parse results.

No Offense meant, but:
Not just telling them, but making people experience how bad they are....?

The pushback is a normal human reaction. You should have expected as much.

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

A big problem is that the random group finder can't limit people to content they are ready for.

You can only control this a small bit while leveling a character, but I would like to be able to exclude DLC dungeons, for example, so I don't get toasted so much by the bosses and end up being a detriment to the group playing. I can handle the regular core dungeons (non-vet) just fine, for example.

Now THAT is Sulfur in an open wound! But in my opinion the core of the problem: The unlimited or unregulated access to content and the fact that ones own failure easily becomes a group failure

Muttsmutt · November 2020

people aren't good at videogames except the ones who are. yeah.
i too wonder how some players even managed to figure out how to get out of the tutorial.
it happens. we all do. PUGs are hell. true.
if you're gonna whine about it, give some real "solutions" to the problem of "some people are better at doing things and some people are worse at doing things".
oh, what's that? there's no reasonable "solutions" without ridiculous ideas that restrict players' freedom and go against the "play as you like" principle of the game?
who woudda thunk it.

here's a solution for you:
git gud so you can carry PUGs.

AlnilamE · November 2020

Lumenn wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Banana wrote: »

You would think that most player's would do some homework if interested in the game by visiting one of the gurus websites and never pug unless you are prepared for the potential circus.

The idea of having to do "homework" to play a videogame, is absurd.

If you want to "top the charts" and be a "pro"? Sure, go for it.
But not for the basic level of "play game! have fun!"

(that said, I don't run dungeons or do other group stuff. One, because I have no interest in interacting with toxic 'l33t d00d' puggers; and two, because I've no interest in 'doing homework' and wouldn't want to hold back any group I joined.)

TBF doing "homework" before playing became a reality about 10 years ago, when games became so complex that it was easier to provide a wiki alongside the game.

I can remember "doing homework" way before wiki. Prima was the go to back then 😉

I own a number of Prima guides for single player games, but I never thought of using them before I started playing the game.

They are there for when you get stuck, or for when you want to work on some achievements.

Discovering things on your own is part of the fun in games.

That's why I always go into new dungeons blind the first time. ZOS is actually good enough at showing you the basic mechanics in the dungeon without you having to look things up. It's the fine tuning of it that might take a few tries.

Inaya1 · November 2020

Muttsmutt wrote: »

people aren't good at videogames except the ones who are. yeah.
i too wonder how some players even managed to figure out how to get out of the tutorial.
it happens. we all do. PUGs are hell. true.
if you're gonna whine about it, give some real "solutions" to the problem of "some people are better at doing things and some people are worse at doing things".
oh, what's that? there's no reasonable "solutions" without ridiculous ideas that restrict players' freedom and go against the "play as you like" principle of the game?
who woudda thunk it.

here's a solution for you:
git gud so you can carry PUGs.

Hahahah, that's what I was talking about. You fell for the title and did not read what I wrote at all. Congratulations, you are one of the most people who beat faster than think about it. xD

gatekeeper13 · November 2020

"Casual" players? How dare they be casuals and do single player content?

Everyone should be 24/7 over their pc, doing vTrials HMs day and night.