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Can we get an honest post-mortem about why Markarth went live with so many serious bugs?
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WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Every patch does, and this isn't the worst one. You're not gonna get anything
I honestly think this is one of the worst ones in a very long game.
Several areas of the game are completely unplayable right now (WGT, vDSA...), other are barely playable.
I do not remember a patch that went live with so many serious bugs as this. I'm open to see some examples if you remember.
Harrowstorm introduced lag and AI bugs in nearly all instanced content, and took way too long to fix. Still, I think the current issues are broader, equally game-breaking, and have nothing to do with scaling up from PTS to the full live server (which is a more forgivable mistake given its difficulty to test). This was obvious the first time anyone clicked their mouse button on PTS, and should’ve been fixed by 6.2.3 at the latest.6 -
alanmatillab16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭oh please, of course 90% of the feedback is ignored because 90% of the feedback is the sort of feedback youg et from a mic too close to a speaker...a high pitched whine about how a players favourite ability/set/combo is being nerfed.
If players actually tested on the PTS instead of working out the latest meta, instance tactics or exploit you wouldnt have half these so called bugs. Many which are not actually bugs but a change in how a particular skill works that a player doesnt like so claims bug.6 -
rrimöykk✭✭✭✭✭Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »Aren't they all working from home?
I would assume that because of this communication and double checking work is suffering.
ZOS is the only gaming company that still uses this flu issue as an excuse. It is not. Stop using It and fix your damn game!29 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »oh please, of course 90% of the feedback is ignored because 90% of the feedback is the sort of feedback youg et from a mic too close to a speaker...a high pitched whine about how a players favourite ability/set/combo is being nerfed.
If players actually tested on the PTS instead of working out the latest meta, instance tactics or exploit you wouldnt have half these so called bugs. Many which are not actually bugs but a change in how a particular skill works that a player doesnt like so claims bug.
Lol.
How dare i not become an unpaid, unoffical QA staff member for 6 weeks every cycle, for a video game i already spent thousands of Euros on as a paying customer.
Clearly its the players fault...
And you totally missed the part where most of the live bugs were reported on the pts and were not fixed before the update went live.
Light attack weave issues were reported on the very first week of the pts, ZOS has 5 weeks to fix it, and its not a mechanic change as the devs already said its a bug.
And there are many more like that.
So please.. get off your high horse, im sure you spend the last 6 weeks hard testing the entire game and leaving well written feedback for the developers.. Or wait , i actually know multiple people who did exactly just that.33 -
eKsDee✭✭✭✭✭alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »oh please, of course 90% of the feedback is ignored because 90% of the feedback is the sort of feedback youg et from a mic too close to a speaker...a high pitched whine about how a players favourite ability/set/combo is being nerfed.
If players actually tested on the PTS instead of working out the latest meta, instance tactics or exploit you wouldnt have half these so called bugs. Many which are not actually bugs but a change in how a particular skill works that a player doesnt like so claims bug.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/549208/pts-laggy
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/549776/degeneration-skill-not-functioning-on-pts-6-2-4
They were brought up week 1 of the PTS, and nothing was done about them. Not even an acknowledgement.26 -
omegatay_ESO✭✭✭✭
They have plenty of people, more now than ever. Sometimes I just feel like the ZoS team just does not care. Harsh, but honest.16 -
Zolron✭✭✭alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »oh please, of course 90% of the feedback is ignored because 90% of the feedback is the sort of feedback youg et from a mic too close to a speaker...a high pitched whine about how a players favourite ability/set/combo is being nerfed.
If players actually tested on the PTS instead of working out the latest meta, instance tactics or exploit you wouldnt have half these so called bugs. Many which are not actually bugs but a change in how a particular skill works that a player doesnt like so claims bug.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/549208/pts-laggy
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/549776/degeneration-skill-not-functioning-on-pts-6-2-4
They were brought up week 1 of the PTS, and nothing was done about them. Not even an acknowledgement.
Sadly, I agree but this post will probably disappear as mine did when I also linked posts that exposed the fact that many people reported know issues in the pts and yet they were ignored. The devs ignore but the mods cover for them.....ok, i'll head over to the corner with my tin-foil hat :{14 -
Sephyr✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »oh please, of course 90% of the feedback is ignored because 90% of the feedback is the sort of feedback youg et from a mic too close to a speaker...a high pitched whine about how a players favourite ability/set/combo is being nerfed.
If players actually tested on the PTS instead of working out the latest meta, instance tactics or exploit you wouldnt have half these so called bugs. Many which are not actually bugs but a change in how a particular skill works that a player doesnt like so claims bug.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/549208/pts-laggy
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/549776/degeneration-skill-not-functioning-on-pts-6-2-4
They were brought up week 1 of the PTS, and nothing was done about them. Not even an acknowledgement.
Some people who think we don't play on the PTS and bug report 'complain' also don't look at the PTS forum when bugs are actually reported.
8 -
universal_wrath✭✭✭✭✭First, I want to say I love this game. More than any other game I've ever played. I want it to succeed and I've been promoting it for friends since 2015. I want ESO to last for years and years.
Second, I know we are in the middle of a pandemic and I work in software, so I understand that, sometimes, there is a business case to justify launching software you know is buggy because the benefits justifies the downsides.
But this patch was just too much. Too many fundamental things broke. Animations, basics about combat, dozens of instance dungeon/arenas are basically or literally unplayable right now. What is more worrisome is that several of those very serious bugs were reported in the first weeks of PTS. They were known for a full month before launch date.
What is going on? Why did Markarth still went live with so many issues?
This was one of the patches that generated the most excitement from everyone I know in the recent years. The Set Collection is an awesome feature. My "ESO bubble" was tremendously excited about VH. Then they logged in and all excitement became disappointment.
Honestly, the last time I saw this much excitement turn into the other side of the spectrum to disappointment that quickly was when Morrowind patch notes dropped. Everyone was in awe of the Morrowind announcement, then all the nerfs came in the notes. The result was that the end game scene suffered such a big hit that I don't think it has ever recovered.
I get the same feeling with Markarth. So many people were, finally, so excited about a patch. A patch with awesome new features, great updates, very reasonable changes and a great new, interesting mythic set... Then we logged in.
I'm not saying we "demand" or even "deserve" an answer or explanation. I'm not entitled like that. At all. But we can all see of the most loyal players are totally disappointed at the current state of the game and the quality of this patch.
As I said in other posts, if the issue is resources, hire more or try to do less. I'm sure all the community would be completely understanding if we went to a 3-patch cycle to slow things down a little and increase the QA of new patches.
Please, ZOS, Rich... Tell us, honestly, what happened? What can you do so this doesn't happen again at this stage of the game's life?
It us zos and this is a normal phenomena. It happens with e every contents they release. Most games release content with handful of bugs they are not aware of, but they hotfix these bugs immeditaly. Zos hotfix bugs next time they release contnent, even then, they don't fix most bugs. Some bugs exist since 2014 and zos are know they exist, zos just simply can't fix them.10 -
Idinuse✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭As I said before, I don't think the intention is to exclude players. The people involved in the game know that, without players, there is no game.
Feedback from the PTS is 90% or more ignored, even about serious bugs that are pushed to the live server. And I'm not speaking about the latest patch only. It's been that way for years. And I didn't even mention the increasingly aggressive push towards microtransaction revenue. How can players feel like they are taken seriously in such a climate? When they take away skills that you have enjoyed for years, and then introduce crown store solutions to help you get said skills back faster, what are we to think? Most players are intelligent, and perfectly capable of observing and evaluating trends. Look at the number of negative threads compared to positive threads here on the forums, and ask yourself why things are like that?
This. It's the same old, same old.
"Ok. Let me just give you three random examples of why I don't PTS test anything anymore."Sed ut perspiciatis unde omnis iste natus error sit voluptatem accusantium dolorem que laudantium, totam rem aperiam, eaque ipsa quae ab illo inventore veritatis et quasi architecto beatae vitae dicta sunt explicabo. Nemo enim ipsam voluptatem quia voluptas sit aspernatur aut odit aut fugit, sed quia consequuntur magni dolores eos qui ratione voluptatem sequi nesciunt. Neque porro quisquam est, qui dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit, sed quia non numquam eius modi tempora incidunt ut labore et dolore magnam aliquam quaerat voluptatem. Ut enim ad minima veniam, quis nostrum exercitationem ullam corporis suscipit laboriosam, nisi ut aliquid ex ea commodi consequatur? Quis autem vel eum iure reprehenderit qui in ea voluptate velit esse quam nihil molestiae consequatur, vel illum qui dolorem eum fugiat quo voluptas nulla pariatur?3 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭From my experience its that: Alot of players give Feedback about gameplay changes, but most of them are just theory crafting and only a few ppl spend time on the PTS in the first place, so actual bug reports and testing are sparse to begin with. This leaves most of the testing to the internal test teams. The problem is that the live servers are much much bigger compared to the test servers and this can lead to bugs along the way that are the result of code not scalling that well when brought into bigger systems. A good example for this is the dungeon finder and its bug with heavy load that are hard to track and hard to simulate.
From my perspective this update is not much worse compared to other updates in the past. There is just the bad luck that the bugs effected more players this time compared to bugs in the past that only effected limited numbers of players.
This is the case. The PTS is never very populated so only a small number of players are giving actual feedback on the performance of the patch. Most have no direct idea of how things are working on the PTS.2 -
newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
They always talk about "The Vision," unfortunately the vision doesn't include the players. They talk alot about balancing things on the spreadsheet.... meeting "standards" and whatnot.... but there never seems to be a fair balance.
I was chastised by ZoS and had a post removed where I expressed my doubt that the Devs play the game.
I get that people working to create a beautiful game love it
I get that "not everything can be foreseen"
I get that not every type of problem noted on the PTS is necessarily anything that can be done (in time, with current resources, without mangling other things ... that sort of thing).
But I am sad because the "Vision" that ZoS has is the spreadsheet... the forest. You can't have a forest without trees and we are the trees.
@Alcast did a video about changes at one point and looked at an example where some damage proc was changed by about 12 points. ... that's a speadsheet level decision. It likely does something subtle to the way the spreadsheet or the forest adds up, but not much is perceptible on a personal or tree level.
I think that it's important that who ever
1-makes the choices about changes
2-Impliments the changes and how they will come across
NEED to be playing the game to be maximally effective
Sometimes effective means "making a change that improves the enjoyment of the game"
Sometimes effective means "communicating with the player base"
One change I have liked was the "sticker book" thing.
I did not expect to like it
Then I played it.
I offer the same encouragement to the devs/directors
Sometimes things that look one way on paper play out very very differently. That's why often multiple PTS folks will have the same complaint. And it seems to boil down to however good this looked on paper - it's not fun. Or not working. Both are important.
YMMV
Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.***Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis4 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
All the DLC has bugs but it tend to be minor things, usually related to the new content.universal_wrath wrote: »First, I want to say I love this game. More than any other game I've ever played. I want it to succeed and I've been promoting it for friends since 2015. I want ESO to last for years and years.
Second, I know we are in the middle of a pandemic and I work in software, so I understand that, sometimes, there is a business case to justify launching software you know is buggy because the benefits justifies the downsides.
But this patch was just too much. Too many fundamental things broke. Animations, basics about combat, dozens of instance dungeon/arenas are basically or literally unplayable right now. What is more worrisome is that several of those very serious bugs were reported in the first weeks of PTS. They were known for a full month before launch date.
What is going on? Why did Markarth still went live with so many issues?
This was one of the patches that generated the most excitement from everyone I know in the recent years. The Set Collection is an awesome feature. My "ESO bubble" was tremendously excited about VH. Then they logged in and all excitement became disappointment.
Honestly, the last time I saw this much excitement turn into the other side of the spectrum to disappointment that quickly was when Morrowind patch notes dropped. Everyone was in awe of the Morrowind announcement, then all the nerfs came in the notes. The result was that the end game scene suffered such a big hit that I don't think it has ever recovered.
I get the same feeling with Markarth. So many people were, finally, so excited about a patch. A patch with awesome new features, great updates, very reasonable changes and a great new, interesting mythic set... Then we logged in.
I'm not saying we "demand" or even "deserve" an answer or explanation. I'm not entitled like that. At all. But we can all see of the most loyal players are totally disappointed at the current state of the game and the quality of this patch.
As I said in other posts, if the issue is resources, hire more or try to do less. I'm sure all the community would be completely understanding if we went to a 3-patch cycle to slow things down a little and increase the QA of new patches.
Please, ZOS, Rich... Tell us, honestly, what happened? What can you do so this doesn't happen again at this stage of the game's life?
It us zos and this is a normal phenomena. It happens with e every contents they release. Most games release content with handful of bugs they are not aware of, but they hotfix these bugs immeditaly. Zos hotfix bugs next time they release contnent, even then, they don't fix most bugs. Some bugs exist since 2014 and zos are know they exist, zos just simply can't fix them.
This had pages on pages of bugs, many serious, other mind boggling and as other say it was reported on PTS early on.
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.3 -
Shantu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭As players who come to the forums, we like to think our opinions and feedback carry significant weight in the decision making process. While I do believe they get read and acknowledged and some level, when cast against the full scope of a product development and release, they don't really matter much. We represent a very minute slice of the player base. There are thousands of other players who's main concern is what new motif, pet, mount, or piece of furniture they can purchase in the crown store. These people spend hundreds of dollars each release. That's why you'll see ANY issue with the Crown Store get addressed immediately. It has an immediate affect on profits.
Anyone who works in the industry knows that a commercial software is ALWAYS released with known bugs and issues. The pressures to meet deadlines force managers to make a determination to wrap up current development, knowing full well there will be issues to address after the release. That decision is made by people who's responsibility it is to meet forecasted profit goals. Some customers find it very frustrating, but very few will abandon a product if the issues are address in a reasonable time. Taking criticism in product forums is just part of the job. We many not like it, but that's just the way the industry works.0 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I feel like I am coming to a crossroads with this game. I want to enjoy it, I intend to enjoy it but I don't feel confident anymore in spending money with ZOS. There are too many bugs, too many issues that is killing what little bit of confidence I had in the development of the game.
I am not a hard core dungeoneer, I don't do trials, I prefer housing and I pretty much just do what I need to do in order to fulfill my housing desires. Perhaps I am not the aim, or core of the customer base, I imagine I am not. However it does not change the fact that I come to the game for a specific reason that is offered with the game, I spend money to do so, and even in that realm of play there are issues that break my confidence.
For example I purchased Stillwater's retreat about a month ago roughly, I dont remember the exact date. I had been hem hawing on getting the property but a I saw a guild member who was making a second story in his home (which I had considered doing but was not sure if it was doable) and it worked perfectly. There was just enough height on the lower level and the upper level for a comfortable 3rd person camera (did not feel claustrophobic) and the space was entirely usable (no invisible walls). So I purchased this property knowing I could create a second story in the main Dwemer building.
However since the Markarth DLC ZOS decided to add invisible barriers in the upstairs area. Intentional, or accidental I don't know, but now have an entire decorated floor that is unusable. I sent a bug report, ZOS knows about it and I assume (hope) it will get fixed on the 16th.
I have also noticed some other build issues in the home in regards to construction/alignments. I worked for a design firm in the past, I have made assets for games, worked in 3D and have given art direction to 3D artists underneath me. These issues (as seen in the accompanying screenshots) would absolutely not make it to production, and when you consider that the price of homes like the one I purchased are often more than the base price of a new chapter, one just has to consider what the heck is going on?
There is an issue/bug now where we can not sit in chairs that are placed even with the "green border" showing the prop is interactable.
These issues, although minor to some, are important to me as a paying customer. If solved in a timely manner, then my confidence will be partially restored, if not then my confidence will be shattered and I will most likely just take my business elsewhere (this is not a "quitting" or "good bye post", but rather laying out the logical consequence of what happens with unhappy customers).
When I consider the issues I have in game, and overlay them with the myriad of issues others have brought up, especially issues that were brought up a month ago on the PTS, then I just start to feel really down about moving forward supporting ESO both in spirit and monetarily.
Anyway, just sharing my thoughts. Not that they really matter to anyone.
NOTE: The pictures I posted are not unique and examples like this can be found in most of the player housing in game from the launch of homestead to current date. So this is not an isolated incident or being picky. These issues compiled with a plethora of other issues are simply making the desire to log in more and more difficult.
18 -
hexentb16_ESO✭✭✭✭I would have rather had the release delayed further if it meant less bugs. I'm on Xbox and I know that we'll probably have bugs that are fixed on pc by the 10th for up to a month because the pc release wasn't delayed.Edited by hexentb16_ESO on November 8, 2020 9:13PM2
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Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
All the DLC has bugs but it tend to be minor things, usually related to the new content.universal_wrath wrote: »First, I want to say I love this game. More than any other game I've ever played. I want it to succeed and I've been promoting it for friends since 2015. I want ESO to last for years and years.
Second, I know we are in the middle of a pandemic and I work in software, so I understand that, sometimes, there is a business case to justify launching software you know is buggy because the benefits justifies the downsides.
But this patch was just too much. Too many fundamental things broke. Animations, basics about combat, dozens of instance dungeon/arenas are basically or literally unplayable right now. What is more worrisome is that several of those very serious bugs were reported in the first weeks of PTS. They were known for a full month before launch date.
What is going on? Why did Markarth still went live with so many issues?
This was one of the patches that generated the most excitement from everyone I know in the recent years. The Set Collection is an awesome feature. My "ESO bubble" was tremendously excited about VH. Then they logged in and all excitement became disappointment.
Honestly, the last time I saw this much excitement turn into the other side of the spectrum to disappointment that quickly was when Morrowind patch notes dropped. Everyone was in awe of the Morrowind announcement, then all the nerfs came in the notes. The result was that the end game scene suffered such a big hit that I don't think it has ever recovered.
I get the same feeling with Markarth. So many people were, finally, so excited about a patch. A patch with awesome new features, great updates, very reasonable changes and a great new, interesting mythic set... Then we logged in.
I'm not saying we "demand" or even "deserve" an answer or explanation. I'm not entitled like that. At all. But we can all see of the most loyal players are totally disappointed at the current state of the game and the quality of this patch.
As I said in other posts, if the issue is resources, hire more or try to do less. I'm sure all the community would be completely understanding if we went to a 3-patch cycle to slow things down a little and increase the QA of new patches.
Please, ZOS, Rich... Tell us, honestly, what happened? What can you do so this doesn't happen again at this stage of the game's life?
It us zos and this is a normal phenomena. It happens with e every contents they release. Most games release content with handful of bugs they are not aware of, but they hotfix these bugs immeditaly. Zos hotfix bugs next time they release contnent, even then, they don't fix most bugs. Some bugs exist since 2014 and zos are know they exist, zos just simply can't fix them.
This had pages on pages of bugs, many serious, other mind boggling and as other say it was reported on PTS early on.
Oh trust me, since the year of performance has began, literally every content patch introduced gamebreaking bugs.
Position desyncs from update 25 are still in the game and 9 months after.
They just dont prioritise a working product over short term sales of new content and purchase spikes in crown store which also aligns with new content release.20 -
silky_soft✭✭✭✭✭
✭ZOS haven't played the game for years. The only time they play is on a live stream, even then they use dev cheats. As long as the crown store is working it's all good.
All they are using ESO for now is testing for their new MMO on a new engine, that isn't even a new engine. It's just this junk updated. Why would you put so many tests on PVP for so long with no end in site? When we all know you they don't want to spend a thousands on new servers that will actually fix the problem, due to the MS acquisition. That's the sad reality of it, why spend more improving something when you are already going to get paid for it as is.
They consistently fix something then break something else because of the poor conflicting code to begin with. If they don't rerelease eso on this 'new engine' to compete with New World, then you know they don't care. We are just in bandaid mode till their next AAA title takes the player base.
You can only hope MS wipes out some of high paid managers and promotes people who actually have passion for the game. Maybe then ESO will have the drive and direction it needs.
This recent update has made me sad. Sad for the game. Sad for the community. Sad to pay whatever it is now. I want the previous eso back.13 -
Wolfpaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭From my experience its that: Alot of players give Feedback about gameplay changes, but most of them are just theory crafting and only a few ppl spend time on the PTS in the first place, so actual bug reports and testing are sparse to begin with. This leaves most of the testing to the internal test teams. The problem is that the live servers are much much bigger compared to the test servers and this can lead to bugs along the way that are the result of code not scalling that well when brought into bigger systems. A good example for this is the dungeon finder and its bug with heavy load that are hard to track and hard to simulate.
From my perspective this update is not much worse compared to other updates in the past. There is just the bad luck that the bugs effected more players this time compared to bugs in the past that only effected limited numbers of players.
This is the case. The PTS is never very populated so only a small number of players are giving actual feedback on the performance of the patch. Most have no direct idea of how things are working on the PTS.
All that free labor must be really hard for ZOS to come up with solutions to ESO's problems.
Like I mentioned in a previous post, unfortunately laws have yet to catch up to software & gaming.
I can't imagine providing my clients with such a poor product...& with the help of free labor.Edited by Wolfpaw on November 8, 2020 11:36PM11 -
warabi✭✭✭
That's so absolutely ridiculous that it's hard to take seriously. I could also just say that pvp is a cancer that ruins all balancing attempts at this game and should be removed, but that's absurd, isn't it? If ZoS were truly smart they'd simply separate both, like in Guild Wars 1. Don't lose sight of the overall picture here. The fact is ZoS could do that and they won't, which causes division between two wildly different player bases.ilovemycats wrote: »The yearly release schedule is just completely impractical with the resources ZOS have. They haven't been caught up since Vvardenfell, everything ships broken, half of it gets fixed in a year or so, then neglected. 18 or 24 month cycle might be enough time.
They'd also need to hire QA and developers, which they haven't seemed to be able to do in a long time. Maybe Microsoft's money can do that for them, but any advice from MS isn't going to help their product quality.
And of course my perpetual advice: Remove Cyrodil PVP, quit trying to balance that which will never work, and damages the PVE game that 95% of us play.
how about we remove PVE?
Anyway! It's been proven time and time again that ZoS really does not pay attention to PTS feedback. It's been that way for years, long before the pandemic.Edited by warabi on November 8, 2020 11:46PM2 -
Calm_Fury✭✭✭✭✭
It is probably just a matter of focus. They have people, they just chose to change focus to something else that maybe is more urgent.
I completely lost my will to play this game. I was really excited for Markarth, but the bugs are annoying me so much that i'm tanking a couple of weeks break. Hopefully the patch Nov 16 actually fixes those more annoying ones.8 -
Calm_Fury✭✭✭✭✭
All the DLC has bugs but it tend to be minor things, usually related to the new content.universal_wrath wrote: »First, I want to say I love this game. More than any other game I've ever played. I want it to succeed and I've been promoting it for friends since 2015. I want ESO to last for years and years.
Second, I know we are in the middle of a pandemic and I work in software, so I understand that, sometimes, there is a business case to justify launching software you know is buggy because the benefits justifies the downsides.
But this patch was just too much. Too many fundamental things broke. Animations, basics about combat, dozens of instance dungeon/arenas are basically or literally unplayable right now. What is more worrisome is that several of those very serious bugs were reported in the first weeks of PTS. They were known for a full month before launch date.
What is going on? Why did Markarth still went live with so many issues?
This was one of the patches that generated the most excitement from everyone I know in the recent years. The Set Collection is an awesome feature. My "ESO bubble" was tremendously excited about VH. Then they logged in and all excitement became disappointment.
Honestly, the last time I saw this much excitement turn into the other side of the spectrum to disappointment that quickly was when Morrowind patch notes dropped. Everyone was in awe of the Morrowind announcement, then all the nerfs came in the notes. The result was that the end game scene suffered such a big hit that I don't think it has ever recovered.
I get the same feeling with Markarth. So many people were, finally, so excited about a patch. A patch with awesome new features, great updates, very reasonable changes and a great new, interesting mythic set... Then we logged in.
I'm not saying we "demand" or even "deserve" an answer or explanation. I'm not entitled like that. At all. But we can all see of the most loyal players are totally disappointed at the current state of the game and the quality of this patch.
As I said in other posts, if the issue is resources, hire more or try to do less. I'm sure all the community would be completely understanding if we went to a 3-patch cycle to slow things down a little and increase the QA of new patches.
Please, ZOS, Rich... Tell us, honestly, what happened? What can you do so this doesn't happen again at this stage of the game's life?
It us zos and this is a normal phenomena. It happens with e every contents they release. Most games release content with handful of bugs they are not aware of, but they hotfix these bugs immeditaly. Zos hotfix bugs next time they release contnent, even then, they don't fix most bugs. Some bugs exist since 2014 and zos are know they exist, zos just simply can't fix them.
This had pages on pages of bugs, many serious, other mind boggling and as other say it was reported on PTS early on.
Oh trust me, since the year of performance has began, literally every content patch introduced gamebreaking bugs.
Position desyncs from update 25 are still in the game and 9 months after.
They just dont prioritise a working product over short term sales of new content and purchase spikes in crown store which also aligns with new content release.
This is one of the most frustrating things ever... The year of the performance improvements seemed to have made the game worse... A lot worse.
I really appreciate that my FPS in my 2014 MacBook (with Windows) went from 25 to 60. I really do.
But that counts for nothing when I now can't hit most things on my melee builds or just stop playing some content because of desyncs and general frustration with stuff breaking.11 -
Calm_Fury✭✭✭✭✭silky_soft wrote: »ZOS haven't played the game for years. The only time they play is on a live stream, even then they use dev cheats. As long as the crown store is working it's all good.
All they are using ESO for now is testing for their new MMO on a new engine, that isn't even a new engine. It's just this junk updated. Why would you put so many tests on PVP for so long with no end in site? When we all know you they don't want to spend a thousands on new servers that will actually fix the problem, due to the MS acquisition. That's the sad reality of it, why spend more improving something when you are already going to get paid for it as is.
They consistently fix something then break something else because of the poor conflicting code to begin with. If they don't rerelease eso on this 'new engine' to compete with New World, then you know they don't care. We are just in bandaid mode till their next AAA title takes the player base.
You can only hope MS wipes out some of high paid managers and promotes people who actually have passion for the game. Maybe then ESO will have the drive and direction it needs.
Even the Crown Store broke this patch... THE CROWN STORE!
That just shows how bad things are. Even the main source of income was not working when the patch went live.15 -
luen79rwb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Looking at the good side of things... We now have a mega thread with all the known issues! Yaaaay!!!PC/DC/NAserver
V16 sorc - V16 temp - V16 dk - V1 nb - V1 temp - V1 dk1 -
xaraan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I have to say, if players think PTS feedback is to do with some of the bugs that make it live in the game, then you are doing yourself a disservice. The PTS is a bonus for us and them, those interested can check out the game, theorycraft, etc. and they get to have more players checking for bugs, especially rarer random bugs that might get missed in basic quality control work.
BUT, It is NOT the players responsibility to quality test a company's products before they sell them to us.
I love ESO, but if you keep making excuses for companies, their behaviors will only grow worse as time goes by. Being fans and defending them when unneeded will never help them improve. They know they can put out broken stuff and fix it as time goes by because we will still gobble it up and defend them because of being fans.
Many of the bugs in this and previous patches are the types of problems that should be discovered and fixed by their own team even before it goes to PTS. If they don't have a team of testers to go in and do a basic once over to make sure skills and passives work after they make major changes, then our money is being wasted by them. By the time something is on PTS feedback should be stuff like: here is my opinion on balance changes or pointing out rare/random bugs hiding in various places.
IT SHOULD NOT BE: A popular skill used by everyone (rapids) doesn't work and won't be fixed for weeks after patch. Basic weaving doesn't work and won't be fixed for weeks after patch. World boss doesn't work correctly and wont' be fixed weeks after patch, etc. Those are very very VERY basic things that would be discovered by any half decent quality control/testing group.
The fact that players have accepted they are the free labor testing group (or even paying zos essentially) is part of the reason the game is a buggy mess. They are not held responsible for basic quality control and players, be it on PTS or live, spend time dealing with those bugs and getting them noticed by zos or finding work arounds to complete things in the game instead of getting to dive deeper and get more rare and insidious bugs worked on. There are things in this game, minor though they may be in many cases, that haven't been fixed for years. And they never will be because every patch, a bunch of standard issue bugs will be pushed to PTS that should have been discovered first, then some will get fixed or not and get pushed to live and the next month+ will be spent fixing them, then the next patch is focused on, etc.
Now, with that said, there is of course the fact the game is a giant interconnected web of little things that all effect each other. You mess with one thing and a couple dozen other things can get effected and on and on. So you will always have something catch a team by surprise or some small thing sneak by and get discovered later after the players are deep into it.-- @xaraan --
nightblade: Xaraan • templar: Xaraan-dar • dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus • necromancer: Xaraan-qa • warden: Xaraanodon • sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
AD • NA • PC14 -
Muzza45✭✭✭As I said before, I don't think the intention is to exclude players. The people involved in the game know that, without players, there is no game.
Feedback from the PTS is 90% or more ignored, even about serious bugs that are pushed to the live server. And I'm not speaking about the latest patch only. It's been that way for years. And I didn't even mention the increasingly aggressive push towards microtransaction revenue. How can players feel like they are taken seriously in such a climate? When they take away skills that you have enjoyed for years, and then introduce crown store solutions to help you get said skills back faster, what are we to think? Most players are intelligent, and perfectly capable of observing and evaluating trends. Look at the number of negative threads compared to positive threads here on the forums, and ask yourself why things are like that?
I don't disagree with you on that fact. At all.
I disagree on the motive. I don't think they ignore the feedback because they are malicious or don't care. At least the people that are actually, hands-on involved in the game. I think they "ignore" it because they simply do not have enough people to address it all in the time they have allotted before launch.
There's an old saying that goes something like "don't wash your dirty laundry in public"....
Of course ZOS are going to avoid at all costs publishing bad things in their domain. On top of that, there's very little really good things to report on the service & upkeep of the business - therefore the obvious outcome is complete silence!
Maybe if ZOS put their fingers in their ears, all the complaints will go away? It's one of the few businesses I've come across that do not listen to the paying customers and refuse to be accountable.12 -
Calm_Fury✭✭✭✭✭luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »Looking at the good side of things... We now have a mega thread with all the known issues! Yaaaay!!!
Which is missing about a donzen or so haha. There is another thread with a list of "missed bugs".4 -
Calm_Fury✭✭✭✭✭As I said before, I don't think the intention is to exclude players. The people involved in the game know that, without players, there is no game.
Feedback from the PTS is 90% or more ignored, even about serious bugs that are pushed to the live server. And I'm not speaking about the latest patch only. It's been that way for years. And I didn't even mention the increasingly aggressive push towards microtransaction revenue. How can players feel like they are taken seriously in such a climate? When they take away skills that you have enjoyed for years, and then introduce crown store solutions to help you get said skills back faster, what are we to think? Most players are intelligent, and perfectly capable of observing and evaluating trends. Look at the number of negative threads compared to positive threads here on the forums, and ask yourself why things are like that?
I don't disagree with you on that fact. At all.
I disagree on the motive. I don't think they ignore the feedback because they are malicious or don't care. At least the people that are actually, hands-on involved in the game. I think they "ignore" it because they simply do not have enough people to address it all in the time they have allotted before launch.
There's an old saying that goes something like "don't wash your dirty laundry in public"....
Of course ZOS are going to avoid at all costs publishing bad things in their domain. On top of that, there's very little really good things to report on the service & upkeep of the business - therefore the obvious outcome is complete silence!
Maybe if ZOS put their fingers in their ears, all the complaints will go away? It's one of the few businesses I've come across that do not listen to the paying customers and refuse to be accountable.
Sometimes a little transparency goes a long way.
If that wasn't the case, we would never see those post-mortems and public apologies.
I still think, in this case, it would be valuable. A lot of people are completely losing hope in the game. Some sort of reassurance that they know this was bad would create a little bit more trust.
Just this weekend I was catching up with the "ESO YouTube worlds". Kristofer, Nefas, Alcast... They ALL had videos complaining about the bugs, Just this week. And those are just the ones I saw. I'm pretty sure every single major streamer/YouTuber of this game will have some video with complaints about how buggy this patch was.
As I said, I'm taking a 2 weeks break, and I was just coming back more seriously to ESO. At this pace I'm pretty sure I'll end up taking a break and never coming back if the next patches continue to be buggy like the last few.7 -
Kidgangster101✭✭✭✭✭
✭First, I want to say I love this game. More than any other game I've ever played. I want it to succeed and I've been promoting it for friends since 2015. I want ESO to last for years and years.
Second, I know we are in the middle of a pandemic and I work in software, so I understand that, sometimes, there is a business case to justify launching software you know is buggy because the benefits justifies the downsides.
But this patch was just too much. Too many fundamental things broke. Animations, basics about combat, dozens of instance dungeon/arenas are basically or literally unplayable right now. What is more worrisome is that several of those very serious bugs were reported in the first weeks of PTS. They were known for a full month before launch date.
What is going on? Why did Markarth still went live with so many issues?
This was one of the patches that generated the most excitement from everyone I know in the recent years. The Set Collection is an awesome feature. My "ESO bubble" was tremendously excited about VH. Then they logged in and all excitement became disappointment.
Honestly, the last time I saw this much excitement turn into the other side of the spectrum to disappointment that quickly was when Morrowind patch notes dropped. Everyone was in awe of the Morrowind announcement, then all the nerfs came in the notes. The result was that the end game scene suffered such a big hit that I don't think it has ever recovered.
I get the same feeling with Markarth. So many people were, finally, so excited about a patch. A patch with awesome new features, great updates, very reasonable changes and a great new, interesting mythic set... Then we logged in.
I'm not saying we "demand" or even "deserve" an answer or explanation. I'm not entitled like that. At all. But we can all see of the most loyal players are totally disappointed at the current state of the game and the quality of this patch.
As I said in other posts, if the issue is resources, hire more or try to do less. I'm sure all the community would be completely understanding if we went to a 3-patch cycle to slow things down a little and increase the QA of new patches.
Please, ZOS, Rich... Tell us, honestly, what happened? What can you do so this doesn't happen again at this stage of the game's life?
Just so you know this has been happening for as long as I can remember with expansions/dlc. Literally the exact reason so many bugs exists in this game is because [snip] just pushes it out no matter what is broken or what it breaks in the process.
If the crown store was broken though it would be an emergency maintenance to fix it within the hour....... That's why I quit and went back to ff14 I barely ever lag and barely ever have glitches that stop me from playing.
I love the idea of this game and check back constantly to see if it changes in the right direction but everytime I check in I see more posts like this proving nothing has changed. Just cut your loses and move on zo$ clearly have.
[Edited to remove Bashing]Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on November 10, 2020 2:24PM9
