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Which of the two vampire lord would win in a fight against each other. ((Contains spoilers))
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JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Rada al-SaranVayln_Ninetails wrote: »Thevampirenight wrote: »Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »Only reason I vote Harkon is because at least his fight in-game is challenging. I suspect that the Rada Al Saran fight is going to be a snooze fest that can be light-attacked to win, even though he's supposed to be this mythical being that fought a goddess. I guess if we beat him that means we're as strong as him, right? (So again **why cant we be vampire lords if that is the case**)
Basically, I will be disappointed if this year ends with us killing the guy. I feel like this isn't something we as players should be able to kill. It'd be like us 1v1ing molag bal without literally ascending with the power of another daedric prince.
Harkon at least doesn't have to face a vestige that is so powerful that even the last Dragonborn doesn't have the skill the vestige does. Vestige would have likely cut Harkon through like cheese and said too easy. Then move to the next threat.
But this thread isn't about how powerful the vestige is. Its about a fight between these two powerful vampire lords.
If you claim the vestige is so powerful then how come we can't become vampire lords and why can't a vestige 1v1 a dragon? As @TX12001rwb17_ESO said, Lord Harkon had to fight someone WAY worse. The literal dragon born.
And I'm saying that Harkon would win because of this fact. Saran literally gets killed by the vestige, who is waaaaay weaker than a dragon born. Lord Harkon would probably wipe the floor with an ESO character, it'd be like trying to solo the final boss of kyne's aegis by yourself. That is how the fight would go.
If Lord Harkon can stand up against the dragonborn, killing Saran (who gets killed by the vestige) should be no problem. That is my argument and probably the reason why Lord Harkon doesn't even consider Saran a threat and chose to stay hidden. He is nothing.
Because gameplay mechanics? Like why is this even a question? The vestige is about as powerful as the last dragonborn. Harkon is weaker than the other guy, harkon was never truly a challenge for the dragonborn0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭HarkonVayln_Ninetails wrote: »Thevampirenight wrote: »Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »Only reason I vote Harkon is because at least his fight in-game is challenging. I suspect that the Rada Al Saran fight is going to be a snooze fest that can be light-attacked to win, even though he's supposed to be this mythical being that fought a goddess. I guess if we beat him that means we're as strong as him, right? (So again **why cant we be vampire lords if that is the case**)
Basically, I will be disappointed if this year ends with us killing the guy. I feel like this isn't something we as players should be able to kill. It'd be like us 1v1ing molag bal without literally ascending with the power of another daedric prince.
Harkon at least doesn't have to face a vestige that is so powerful that even the last Dragonborn doesn't have the skill the vestige does. Vestige would have likely cut Harkon through like cheese and said too easy. Then move to the next threat.
But this thread isn't about how powerful the vestige is. Its about a fight between these two powerful vampire lords.
If you claim the vestige is so powerful then how come we can't become vampire lords and why can't a vestige 1v1 a dragon? As @TX12001rwb17_ESO said, Lord Harkon had to fight someone WAY worse. The literal dragon born.
And I'm saying that Harkon would win because of this fact. Saran literally gets killed by the vestige, who is waaaaay weaker than a dragon born. Lord Harkon would probably wipe the floor with an ESO character, it'd be like trying to solo the final boss of kyne's aegis by yourself. That is how the fight would go.
If Lord Harkon can stand up against the dragonborn, killing Saran (who gets killed by the vestige) should be no problem. That is my argument and probably the reason why Lord Harkon doesn't even consider Saran a threat and chose to stay hidden. He is nothing.
Because gameplay mechanics? Like why is this even a question? The vestige is about as powerful as the last dragonborn. Harkon is weaker than the other guy, harkon was never truly a challenge for the dragonborn
The Vestige is weaker than the Dohvakiin. You need groups for content in ESO, while the DB just yolo soloes everything. Especially noticeable in Sunspire, where Vestiges break easily trying to kill a single dragon. Meanwhile, DB has no problem killing a dragon. Twice. Before breakfast. While being overencumbered from picking a flower.3 -
Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Rada al-SaranVaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »Lore wise Harkon might be old but we have one little fact we must consider here. Both of them are Vampire Lords but while Harkon sat on his butt and did nothing Rada al-Saran is a sword singer! That's like turning the Dragonborn into a Vampire Lord levels of power and it ended up being Harkon's downfall in the end of Dawnguard. (If the player became a vampire that is.)
Harkon also relies heavily on his blood fountain to stay alive and to draw upon his power. He is terrified of death and I don't see him leaving his castle until the Sun prophecy is complete. Rada al-Saran is a fighter and doesn't seem to fear death to the same degree, and we also have to account for the fact Rada al-Saran fought in the Grey Host's battles and has plenty of combat experience.
Harkon does not stand a chance against Rada al-Saran when you compare the capabilities of the two Lords.
But what if you consider the fact that the literal only way to beat Harkon in-lore is with the auriel's bow? And yet Saran gets defeated really easily by the Vestige in ESO?
Rada does not stand a chance if he doesn't know he needs that bow. And since Harkon probably wouldn't leave his domain to do this fight, Saran would most likely have to confront him there.
I just think it's a bit silly to think that Saran, a character who gets destroyed by someone as weak as the vestige, stands even remotely a chance against Harkon, a vampire lord who would have wiped the floor with the dragonborn if they didn't have the bow.
I feel like people are overstating the need for Auriel's Bow. You can give Harkon the bow before your boss fight and still defeat him. Its just a harder fight if you do.
Think this is non-canon. The game specifically builds a story around the need for the bow. You cannot skip getting the bow to challenge Harkon, so it's pretty clear using the bow is supposed to be canon.
And yet it's not required for the boss fight by gameplay, and my Dragonborn still defeated Harkon without it. So it's not non-canon, so much as a lesser used option that your Dragonborn may have believed impossible.
Regardless, like most artifacts, Auriel's Bow moves around. Its showed up in four of the five single-player games thus far, so it's not too much of a stretch that if Rada al-saran really needed it, he could probably find it (might have to bargain with Sheogorath to unleash it on Cyrodiil as planned) Getting Bloodcursed/Sunhallowed arrows might be the harder part. Gotta find a daughter of Coldharbor for those and there aren't many around.
And you can blast Alduin out of the air with Lightning Storm and a couple destruction potions. But the game still makes it very clear that you canonically need Dragonrend to defeat Alduin.
I don't think that's the same. In the case of Harkon, it's not like you just go "whelp, I'm going see if I can do this without the bow regardless of what the story wants" and then never equip it - like your version of the fight with Alduin.
No, its not like that. Harkon demands the bow. You can hand over the bow in direct response to his demand. "Very well." (Give Auriel's Bow) That's a choice the Devs created for the player to make and the boss fight is harder, but winnable if you do choose to hand over the bow. Breaking his shield with the blessed/cursed arrows isn't necessary to defeat him.
Now, we can argue that common sense would prevent any but the most loyal of Vampire Dragonborn from handing over the bow, but I think that's the point of having that roleplaying option. A loyal Vampire Dragonborn (or a really, really cowardly Dawnguard Dragonborn, I guess?) can hand over the bow...and then Harkon betrays them anyway. Its a good option for role-playing that illustrates the extremes of the selfishly tyrannical nature of Harkon. And because the Devs deliberately included that option in Harkon's dialogue and the player's ability to hand over the bow, its not non-canon that you can defeat Harkon without the bow. In fact, I'd argue that taking that option provided by the Devs makes it clear that Harkon can canonically be defeated. without the bow. (Which has interesting implications for the whole DLC, but I don't want to derail with my thinky thoughts.)
Video with option to hand over the bow:
Nope. The game doesn't even give you the option to challenge him before acquiring the bow. This underlines that the bow must be in play.
If you could just defeat him in his opening dialog there would be no Dawnguard story!PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK3 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Rada al-SaranVayln_Ninetails wrote: »Thevampirenight wrote: »Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »Only reason I vote Harkon is because at least his fight in-game is challenging. I suspect that the Rada Al Saran fight is going to be a snooze fest that can be light-attacked to win, even though he's supposed to be this mythical being that fought a goddess. I guess if we beat him that means we're as strong as him, right? (So again **why cant we be vampire lords if that is the case**)
Basically, I will be disappointed if this year ends with us killing the guy. I feel like this isn't something we as players should be able to kill. It'd be like us 1v1ing molag bal without literally ascending with the power of another daedric prince.
Harkon at least doesn't have to face a vestige that is so powerful that even the last Dragonborn doesn't have the skill the vestige does. Vestige would have likely cut Harkon through like cheese and said too easy. Then move to the next threat.
But this thread isn't about how powerful the vestige is. Its about a fight between these two powerful vampire lords.
If you claim the vestige is so powerful then how come we can't become vampire lords and why can't a vestige 1v1 a dragon? As @TX12001rwb17_ESO said, Lord Harkon had to fight someone WAY worse. The literal dragon born.
And I'm saying that Harkon would win because of this fact. Saran literally gets killed by the vestige, who is waaaaay weaker than a dragon born. Lord Harkon would probably wipe the floor with an ESO character, it'd be like trying to solo the final boss of kyne's aegis by yourself. That is how the fight would go.
If Lord Harkon can stand up against the dragonborn, killing Saran (who gets killed by the vestige) should be no problem. That is my argument and probably the reason why Lord Harkon doesn't even consider Saran a threat and chose to stay hidden. He is nothing.
Because gameplay mechanics? Like why is this even a question? The vestige is about as powerful as the last dragonborn. Harkon is weaker than the other guy, harkon was never truly a challenge for the dragonborn
The Vestige is weaker than the Dohvakiin. You need groups for content in ESO, while the DB just yolo soloes everything. Especially noticeable in Sunspire, where Vestiges break easily trying to kill a single dragon. Meanwhile, DB has no problem killing a dragon. Twice. Before breakfast. While being overencumbered from picking a flower.
Wth are you even talking about? The vestige is one person, you are playing as an undaunted when you take on dungeons.
The vestige defeated molag bal with the help of the amulet, and mannimarco basically alone, that makes him extremely powerful, close or equal to the dragonborn.
You think someone who defeated mannimarco basically alone and molag bal needs the help of some puny adventurer to take on dungeons? Give me a break.
The dragonborn was not serious in his fight against Harkon, do you even realize how powerful Alduin is? Harkon does not compare, he's just a powerful vampire, nothing more, Alduin is a god basically.Edited by JinMori on October 2, 2020 5:00PM0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »Lore wise Harkon might be old but we have one little fact we must consider here. Both of them are Vampire Lords but while Harkon sat on his butt and did nothing Rada al-Saran is a sword singer! That's like turning the Dragonborn into a Vampire Lord levels of power and it ended up being Harkon's downfall in the end of Dawnguard. (If the player became a vampire that is.)
Harkon also relies heavily on his blood fountain to stay alive and to draw upon his power. He is terrified of death and I don't see him leaving his castle until the Sun prophecy is complete. Rada al-Saran is a fighter and doesn't seem to fear death to the same degree, and we also have to account for the fact Rada al-Saran fought in the Grey Host's battles and has plenty of combat experience.
Harkon does not stand a chance against Rada al-Saran when you compare the capabilities of the two Lords.
But what if you consider the fact that the literal only way to beat Harkon in-lore is with the auriel's bow? And yet Saran gets defeated really easily by the Vestige in ESO?
Rada does not stand a chance if he doesn't know he needs that bow. And since Harkon probably wouldn't leave his domain to do this fight, Saran would most likely have to confront him there.
I just think it's a bit silly to think that Saran, a character who gets destroyed by someone as weak as the vestige, stands even remotely a chance against Harkon, a vampire lord who would have wiped the floor with the dragonborn if they didn't have the bow.
I feel like people are overstating the need for Auriel's Bow. You can give Harkon the bow before your boss fight and still defeat him. Its just a harder fight if you do.
Think this is non-canon. The game specifically builds a story around the need for the bow. You cannot skip getting the bow to challenge Harkon, so it's pretty clear using the bow is supposed to be canon.
And yet it's not required for the boss fight by gameplay, and my Dragonborn still defeated Harkon without it. So it's not non-canon, so much as a lesser used option that your Dragonborn may have believed impossible.
Regardless, like most artifacts, Auriel's Bow moves around. Its showed up in four of the five single-player games thus far, so it's not too much of a stretch that if Rada al-saran really needed it, he could probably find it (might have to bargain with Sheogorath to unleash it on Cyrodiil as planned) Getting Bloodcursed/Sunhallowed arrows might be the harder part. Gotta find a daughter of Coldharbor for those and there aren't many around.
And you can blast Alduin out of the air with Lightning Storm and a couple destruction potions. But the game still makes it very clear that you canonically need Dragonrend to defeat Alduin.
I don't think that's the same. In the case of Harkon, it's not like you just go "whelp, I'm going see if I can do this without the bow regardless of what the story wants" and then never equip it - like your version of the fight with Alduin.
No, its not like that. Harkon demands the bow. You can hand over the bow in direct response to his demand. "Very well." (Give Auriel's Bow) That's a choice the Devs created for the player to make and the boss fight is harder, but winnable if you do choose to hand over the bow. Breaking his shield with the blessed/cursed arrows isn't necessary to defeat him.
Now, we can argue that common sense would prevent any but the most loyal of Vampire Dragonborn from handing over the bow, but I think that's the point of having that roleplaying option. A loyal Vampire Dragonborn (or a really, really cowardly Dawnguard Dragonborn, I guess?) can hand over the bow...and then Harkon betrays them anyway. Its a good option for role-playing that illustrates the extremes of the selfishly tyrannical nature of Harkon. And because the Devs deliberately included that option in Harkon's dialogue and the player's ability to hand over the bow, its not non-canon that you can defeat Harkon without the bow. In fact, I'd argue that taking that option provided by the Devs makes it clear that Harkon can canonically be defeated. without the bow. (Which has interesting implications for the whole DLC, but I don't want to derail with my thinky thoughts.)
Video with option to hand over the bow:
Nope. The game doesn't even give you the option to challenge him before acquiring the bow. This underlines that the bow must be in play.
That's moving goalposts. Yes, you have to get the bow to advance the quest. So what? After all that work to get it, the Devs gave us the option to give Harkon the bow. Just like how the prophecy was faked up by Vyrthur, the bow isn't necessary to beat Harkon in his boss fight.
And since we're talking about a boss fight here, there's no logic to insisting that canonically you have to use Auriel's Bow. You don't. The Devs - the same ones who made you go hunting for the bow to keep it away from Harkon in the first place - gave you the option to hand the bow over to Harkon when he demands it. Rather than a non-standard game over, you still beat Harkon in his boss fight without it.
But since we're going back and forth, tell you what. You provide your source that you must have Auriel's Bow to defeat Harkon in his boss fight. I've already provided the gameplay option and dialogue where you don't.4 -
AgaTheGreat✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dettlaff van der Eretein would winPS4 EU Aga_The_Grey - retired | PC EU AgaTheGreat1 -
Cinbri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Rada al-Saran
I bet on Emiel Regis Rohellec Terzieff-Godefroy.AgaTheGreat wrote: »Dettlaff van der Eretein would win
Regarding topic - Rada fueled by that Spoiler Thingy definetly absolute victorer.Edited by Cinbri on October 2, 2020 7:56PM0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭HarkonVayln_Ninetails wrote: »Thevampirenight wrote: »Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »Only reason I vote Harkon is because at least his fight in-game is challenging. I suspect that the Rada Al Saran fight is going to be a snooze fest that can be light-attacked to win, even though he's supposed to be this mythical being that fought a goddess. I guess if we beat him that means we're as strong as him, right? (So again **why cant we be vampire lords if that is the case**)
Basically, I will be disappointed if this year ends with us killing the guy. I feel like this isn't something we as players should be able to kill. It'd be like us 1v1ing molag bal without literally ascending with the power of another daedric prince.
Harkon at least doesn't have to face a vestige that is so powerful that even the last Dragonborn doesn't have the skill the vestige does. Vestige would have likely cut Harkon through like cheese and said too easy. Then move to the next threat.
But this thread isn't about how powerful the vestige is. Its about a fight between these two powerful vampire lords.
If you claim the vestige is so powerful then how come we can't become vampire lords and why can't a vestige 1v1 a dragon? As @TX12001rwb17_ESO said, Lord Harkon had to fight someone WAY worse. The literal dragon born.
And I'm saying that Harkon would win because of this fact. Saran literally gets killed by the vestige, who is waaaaay weaker than a dragon born. Lord Harkon would probably wipe the floor with an ESO character, it'd be like trying to solo the final boss of kyne's aegis by yourself. That is how the fight would go.
If Lord Harkon can stand up against the dragonborn, killing Saran (who gets killed by the vestige) should be no problem. That is my argument and probably the reason why Lord Harkon doesn't even consider Saran a threat and chose to stay hidden. He is nothing.
Because gameplay mechanics? Like why is this even a question? The vestige is about as powerful as the last dragonborn. Harkon is weaker than the other guy, harkon was never truly a challenge for the dragonborn
The Vestige is weaker than the Dohvakiin. You need groups for content in ESO, while the DB just yolo soloes everything. Especially noticeable in Sunspire, where Vestiges break easily trying to kill a single dragon. Meanwhile, DB has no problem killing a dragon. Twice. Before breakfast. While being overencumbered from picking a flower.
Wth are you even talking about? The vestige is one person, you are playing as an undaunted when you take on dungeons.
The vestige defeated molag bal with the help of the amulet, and mannimarco basically alone, that makes him extremely powerful, close or equal to the dragonborn.
You think someone who defeated mannimarco basically alone and molag bal needs the help of some puny adventurer to take on dungeons? Give me a break.
The dragonborn was not serious in his fight against Harkon, do you even realize how powerful Alduin is? Harkon does not compare, he's just a powerful vampire, nothing more, Alduin is a god basically.
Martin Septim did the same to Mehrunes Dagon, who is probably even more powerful than Molag Bal. And Martin was really not special, except for his OP voice actor.0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭HarkonVaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »Lore wise Harkon might be old but we have one little fact we must consider here. Both of them are Vampire Lords but while Harkon sat on his butt and did nothing Rada al-Saran is a sword singer! That's like turning the Dragonborn into a Vampire Lord levels of power and it ended up being Harkon's downfall in the end of Dawnguard. (If the player became a vampire that is.)
Harkon also relies heavily on his blood fountain to stay alive and to draw upon his power. He is terrified of death and I don't see him leaving his castle until the Sun prophecy is complete. Rada al-Saran is a fighter and doesn't seem to fear death to the same degree, and we also have to account for the fact Rada al-Saran fought in the Grey Host's battles and has plenty of combat experience.
Harkon does not stand a chance against Rada al-Saran when you compare the capabilities of the two Lords.
But what if you consider the fact that the literal only way to beat Harkon in-lore is with the auriel's bow? And yet Saran gets defeated really easily by the Vestige in ESO?
Rada does not stand a chance if he doesn't know he needs that bow. And since Harkon probably wouldn't leave his domain to do this fight, Saran would most likely have to confront him there.
I just think it's a bit silly to think that Saran, a character who gets destroyed by someone as weak as the vestige, stands even remotely a chance against Harkon, a vampire lord who would have wiped the floor with the dragonborn if they didn't have the bow.
I feel like people are overstating the need for Auriel's Bow. You can give Harkon the bow before your boss fight and still defeat him. Its just a harder fight if you do.
Think this is non-canon. The game specifically builds a story around the need for the bow. You cannot skip getting the bow to challenge Harkon, so it's pretty clear using the bow is supposed to be canon.
And yet it's not required for the boss fight by gameplay, and my Dragonborn still defeated Harkon without it. So it's not non-canon, so much as a lesser used option that your Dragonborn may have believed impossible.
Regardless, like most artifacts, Auriel's Bow moves around. Its showed up in four of the five single-player games thus far, so it's not too much of a stretch that if Rada al-saran really needed it, he could probably find it (might have to bargain with Sheogorath to unleash it on Cyrodiil as planned) Getting Bloodcursed/Sunhallowed arrows might be the harder part. Gotta find a daughter of Coldharbor for those and there aren't many around.
And you can blast Alduin out of the air with Lightning Storm and a couple destruction potions. But the game still makes it very clear that you canonically need Dragonrend to defeat Alduin.
I don't think that's the same. In the case of Harkon, it's not like you just go "whelp, I'm going see if I can do this without the bow regardless of what the story wants" and then never equip it - like your version of the fight with Alduin.
No, its not like that. Harkon demands the bow. You can hand over the bow in direct response to his demand. "Very well." (Give Auriel's Bow) That's a choice the Devs created for the player to make and the boss fight is harder, but winnable if you do choose to hand over the bow. Breaking his shield with the blessed/cursed arrows isn't necessary to defeat him.
Now, we can argue that common sense would prevent any but the most loyal of Vampire Dragonborn from handing over the bow, but I think that's the point of having that roleplaying option. A loyal Vampire Dragonborn (or a really, really cowardly Dawnguard Dragonborn, I guess?) can hand over the bow...and then Harkon betrays them anyway. Its a good option for role-playing that illustrates the extremes of the selfishly tyrannical nature of Harkon. And because the Devs deliberately included that option in Harkon's dialogue and the player's ability to hand over the bow, its not non-canon that you can defeat Harkon without the bow. In fact, I'd argue that taking that option provided by the Devs makes it clear that Harkon can canonically be defeated. without the bow. (Which has interesting implications for the whole DLC, but I don't want to derail with my thinky thoughts.)
Video with option to hand over the bow:
Nope. The game doesn't even give you the option to challenge him before acquiring the bow. This underlines that the bow must be in play.
That's moving goalposts. Yes, you have to get the bow to advance the quest. So what? After all that work to get it, the Devs gave us the option to give Harkon the bow. Just like how the prophecy was faked up by Vyrthur, the bow isn't necessary to beat Harkon in his boss fight.
And since we're talking about a boss fight here, there's no logic to insisting that canonically you have to use Auriel's Bow. You don't. The Devs - the same ones who made you go hunting for the bow to keep it away from Harkon in the first place - gave you the option to hand the bow over to Harkon when he demands it. Rather than a non-standard game over, you still beat Harkon in his boss fight without it.
But since we're going back and forth, tell you what. You provide your source that you must have Auriel's Bow to defeat Harkon in his boss fight. I've already provided the gameplay option and dialogue where you don't.
Well, let me ask you a question. Do you think the Champion of Cyrodiil did really become champion, archmage, grey fox, listener, knight of the nine and madgod?0 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Rada al-SaranVayln_Ninetails wrote: »Thevampirenight wrote: »Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »Only reason I vote Harkon is because at least his fight in-game is challenging. I suspect that the Rada Al Saran fight is going to be a snooze fest that can be light-attacked to win, even though he's supposed to be this mythical being that fought a goddess. I guess if we beat him that means we're as strong as him, right? (So again **why cant we be vampire lords if that is the case**)
Basically, I will be disappointed if this year ends with us killing the guy. I feel like this isn't something we as players should be able to kill. It'd be like us 1v1ing molag bal without literally ascending with the power of another daedric prince.
Harkon at least doesn't have to face a vestige that is so powerful that even the last Dragonborn doesn't have the skill the vestige does. Vestige would have likely cut Harkon through like cheese and said too easy. Then move to the next threat.
But this thread isn't about how powerful the vestige is. Its about a fight between these two powerful vampire lords.
If you claim the vestige is so powerful then how come we can't become vampire lords and why can't a vestige 1v1 a dragon? As @TX12001rwb17_ESO said, Lord Harkon had to fight someone WAY worse. The literal dragon born.
And I'm saying that Harkon would win because of this fact. Saran literally gets killed by the vestige, who is waaaaay weaker than a dragon born. Lord Harkon would probably wipe the floor with an ESO character, it'd be like trying to solo the final boss of kyne's aegis by yourself. That is how the fight would go.
If Lord Harkon can stand up against the dragonborn, killing Saran (who gets killed by the vestige) should be no problem. That is my argument and probably the reason why Lord Harkon doesn't even consider Saran a threat and chose to stay hidden. He is nothing.
Because gameplay mechanics? Like why is this even a question? The vestige is about as powerful as the last dragonborn. Harkon is weaker than the other guy, harkon was never truly a challenge for the dragonborn
The Vestige is weaker than the Dohvakiin. You need groups for content in ESO, while the DB just yolo soloes everything. Especially noticeable in Sunspire, where Vestiges break easily trying to kill a single dragon. Meanwhile, DB has no problem killing a dragon. Twice. Before breakfast. While being overencumbered from picking a flower.
Wth are you even talking about? The vestige is one person, you are playing as an undaunted when you take on dungeons.
The vestige defeated molag bal with the help of the amulet, and mannimarco basically alone, that makes him extremely powerful, close or equal to the dragonborn.
You think someone who defeated mannimarco basically alone and molag bal needs the help of some puny adventurer to take on dungeons? Give me a break.
The dragonborn was not serious in his fight against Harkon, do you even realize how powerful Alduin is? Harkon does not compare, he's just a powerful vampire, nothing more, Alduin is a god basically.
Martin Septim did the same to Mehrunes Dagon, who is probably even more powerful than Molag Bal. And Martin was really not special, except for his OP voice actor.
Mehrunes is about on par with molag bal. Anyway you skipped over the fact that mannimarco is the strongest necromancer in lore, he literally became a god in another timeline.
The vestige defeated him.
You also quietly ignored the rest of the point and cherry picked what you wanted to respond to.
Anyway, base vestige is probably weaker than the dragonborn, but amulet empowered vestige is definitely stronger.Edited by JinMori on October 2, 2020 9:19PM1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »Lore wise Harkon might be old but we have one little fact we must consider here. Both of them are Vampire Lords but while Harkon sat on his butt and did nothing Rada al-Saran is a sword singer! That's like turning the Dragonborn into a Vampire Lord levels of power and it ended up being Harkon's downfall in the end of Dawnguard. (If the player became a vampire that is.)
Harkon also relies heavily on his blood fountain to stay alive and to draw upon his power. He is terrified of death and I don't see him leaving his castle until the Sun prophecy is complete. Rada al-Saran is a fighter and doesn't seem to fear death to the same degree, and we also have to account for the fact Rada al-Saran fought in the Grey Host's battles and has plenty of combat experience.
Harkon does not stand a chance against Rada al-Saran when you compare the capabilities of the two Lords.
But what if you consider the fact that the literal only way to beat Harkon in-lore is with the auriel's bow? And yet Saran gets defeated really easily by the Vestige in ESO?
Rada does not stand a chance if he doesn't know he needs that bow. And since Harkon probably wouldn't leave his domain to do this fight, Saran would most likely have to confront him there.
I just think it's a bit silly to think that Saran, a character who gets destroyed by someone as weak as the vestige, stands even remotely a chance against Harkon, a vampire lord who would have wiped the floor with the dragonborn if they didn't have the bow.
I feel like people are overstating the need for Auriel's Bow. You can give Harkon the bow before your boss fight and still defeat him. Its just a harder fight if you do.
Think this is non-canon. The game specifically builds a story around the need for the bow. You cannot skip getting the bow to challenge Harkon, so it's pretty clear using the bow is supposed to be canon.
And yet it's not required for the boss fight by gameplay, and my Dragonborn still defeated Harkon without it. So it's not non-canon, so much as a lesser used option that your Dragonborn may have believed impossible.
Regardless, like most artifacts, Auriel's Bow moves around. Its showed up in four of the five single-player games thus far, so it's not too much of a stretch that if Rada al-saran really needed it, he could probably find it (might have to bargain with Sheogorath to unleash it on Cyrodiil as planned) Getting Bloodcursed/Sunhallowed arrows might be the harder part. Gotta find a daughter of Coldharbor for those and there aren't many around.
And you can blast Alduin out of the air with Lightning Storm and a couple destruction potions. But the game still makes it very clear that you canonically need Dragonrend to defeat Alduin.
I don't think that's the same. In the case of Harkon, it's not like you just go "whelp, I'm going see if I can do this without the bow regardless of what the story wants" and then never equip it - like your version of the fight with Alduin.
No, its not like that. Harkon demands the bow. You can hand over the bow in direct response to his demand. "Very well." (Give Auriel's Bow) That's a choice the Devs created for the player to make and the boss fight is harder, but winnable if you do choose to hand over the bow. Breaking his shield with the blessed/cursed arrows isn't necessary to defeat him.
Now, we can argue that common sense would prevent any but the most loyal of Vampire Dragonborn from handing over the bow, but I think that's the point of having that roleplaying option. A loyal Vampire Dragonborn (or a really, really cowardly Dawnguard Dragonborn, I guess?) can hand over the bow...and then Harkon betrays them anyway. Its a good option for role-playing that illustrates the extremes of the selfishly tyrannical nature of Harkon. And because the Devs deliberately included that option in Harkon's dialogue and the player's ability to hand over the bow, its not non-canon that you can defeat Harkon without the bow. In fact, I'd argue that taking that option provided by the Devs makes it clear that Harkon can canonically be defeated. without the bow. (Which has interesting implications for the whole DLC, but I don't want to derail with my thinky thoughts.)
Video with option to hand over the bow:
Nope. The game doesn't even give you the option to challenge him before acquiring the bow. This underlines that the bow must be in play.
That's moving goalposts. Yes, you have to get the bow to advance the quest. So what? After all that work to get it, the Devs gave us the option to give Harkon the bow. Just like how the prophecy was faked up by Vyrthur, the bow isn't necessary to beat Harkon in his boss fight.
And since we're talking about a boss fight here, there's no logic to insisting that canonically you have to use Auriel's Bow. You don't. The Devs - the same ones who made you go hunting for the bow to keep it away from Harkon in the first place - gave you the option to hand the bow over to Harkon when he demands it. Rather than a non-standard game over, you still beat Harkon in his boss fight without it.
But since we're going back and forth, tell you what. You provide your source that you must have Auriel's Bow to defeat Harkon in his boss fight. I've already provided the gameplay option and dialogue where you don't.
Well, let me ask you a question. Do you think the Champion of Cyrodiil did really become champion, archmage, grey fox, listener, knight of the nine and madgod?
So...do you have a source for your contention that the Dragonborn must have Auriel's Bow to defeat Harkon in his boss fight to counter my source from dialogue and gameplay that Auriel's Bow does not need to be used and indeed can be handed over to Harkon, thus is unnecessary to defeat him in his boss fight, or not?
I'm trying to stay on topic here. Harkon vs Rada al-saran in a fight. Rada acquiring Auriel's Bow isn't as necessary as some people make it out to be - though given that ZOS intended it to be a Cyrodiil weapon for chaos like Volendrung, its entirely possible he could get ahold of it in ESO if he bargained with Sheogorath for it.1 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭HarkonVayln_Ninetails wrote: »Thevampirenight wrote: »Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »Only reason I vote Harkon is because at least his fight in-game is challenging. I suspect that the Rada Al Saran fight is going to be a snooze fest that can be light-attacked to win, even though he's supposed to be this mythical being that fought a goddess. I guess if we beat him that means we're as strong as him, right? (So again **why cant we be vampire lords if that is the case**)
Basically, I will be disappointed if this year ends with us killing the guy. I feel like this isn't something we as players should be able to kill. It'd be like us 1v1ing molag bal without literally ascending with the power of another daedric prince.
Harkon at least doesn't have to face a vestige that is so powerful that even the last Dragonborn doesn't have the skill the vestige does. Vestige would have likely cut Harkon through like cheese and said too easy. Then move to the next threat.
But this thread isn't about how powerful the vestige is. Its about a fight between these two powerful vampire lords.
If you claim the vestige is so powerful then how come we can't become vampire lords and why can't a vestige 1v1 a dragon? As @TX12001rwb17_ESO said, Lord Harkon had to fight someone WAY worse. The literal dragon born.
And I'm saying that Harkon would win because of this fact. Saran literally gets killed by the vestige, who is waaaaay weaker than a dragon born. Lord Harkon would probably wipe the floor with an ESO character, it'd be like trying to solo the final boss of kyne's aegis by yourself. That is how the fight would go.
If Lord Harkon can stand up against the dragonborn, killing Saran (who gets killed by the vestige) should be no problem. That is my argument and probably the reason why Lord Harkon doesn't even consider Saran a threat and chose to stay hidden. He is nothing.
Because gameplay mechanics? Like why is this even a question? The vestige is about as powerful as the last dragonborn. Harkon is weaker than the other guy, harkon was never truly a challenge for the dragonborn
The Vestige is weaker than the Dohvakiin. You need groups for content in ESO, while the DB just yolo soloes everything. Especially noticeable in Sunspire, where Vestiges break easily trying to kill a single dragon. Meanwhile, DB has no problem killing a dragon. Twice. Before breakfast. While being overencumbered from picking a flower.
Wth are you even talking about? The vestige is one person, you are playing as an undaunted when you take on dungeons.
The vestige defeated molag bal with the help of the amulet, and mannimarco basically alone, that makes him extremely powerful, close or equal to the dragonborn.
You think someone who defeated mannimarco basically alone and molag bal needs the help of some puny adventurer to take on dungeons? Give me a break.
The dragonborn was not serious in his fight against Harkon, do you even realize how powerful Alduin is? Harkon does not compare, he's just a powerful vampire, nothing more, Alduin is a god basically.
Martin Septim did the same to Mehrunes Dagon, who is probably even more powerful than Molag Bal. And Martin was really not special, except for his OP voice actor.
Mehrunes is about on par with molag bal. Anyway you skipped over the fact that mannimarco is the strongest necromancer in lore, he literally became a god in another timeline.
The vestige defeated him.
You also quietly ignored the rest of the point and cherry picked what you wanted to respond to.
Anyway, base vestige is probably weaker than the dragonborn, but amulet empowered vestige is definitely stronger.
Mannimarco was defeated by the Vestige, Lyris, Sai and Abnur, all powerful warriors in their own way. And when Mannimarco wanted to reveal his full power, he got fist slapped by Molag Bal himself. So no, the Vestige did not 1v1 Manni and we don't know if the companions would have bested him without Bal's intervention.
The Alduin we see in Skyrim is not the real Alduin. He's corrupted and removed from his godly aspect. Alduin is specifically designed to be undefeatable and if we had faced this original Alduin, our timeline would have ended.0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭HarkonVaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »Lore wise Harkon might be old but we have one little fact we must consider here. Both of them are Vampire Lords but while Harkon sat on his butt and did nothing Rada al-Saran is a sword singer! That's like turning the Dragonborn into a Vampire Lord levels of power and it ended up being Harkon's downfall in the end of Dawnguard. (If the player became a vampire that is.)
Harkon also relies heavily on his blood fountain to stay alive and to draw upon his power. He is terrified of death and I don't see him leaving his castle until the Sun prophecy is complete. Rada al-Saran is a fighter and doesn't seem to fear death to the same degree, and we also have to account for the fact Rada al-Saran fought in the Grey Host's battles and has plenty of combat experience.
Harkon does not stand a chance against Rada al-Saran when you compare the capabilities of the two Lords.
But what if you consider the fact that the literal only way to beat Harkon in-lore is with the auriel's bow? And yet Saran gets defeated really easily by the Vestige in ESO?
Rada does not stand a chance if he doesn't know he needs that bow. And since Harkon probably wouldn't leave his domain to do this fight, Saran would most likely have to confront him there.
I just think it's a bit silly to think that Saran, a character who gets destroyed by someone as weak as the vestige, stands even remotely a chance against Harkon, a vampire lord who would have wiped the floor with the dragonborn if they didn't have the bow.
I feel like people are overstating the need for Auriel's Bow. You can give Harkon the bow before your boss fight and still defeat him. Its just a harder fight if you do.
Think this is non-canon. The game specifically builds a story around the need for the bow. You cannot skip getting the bow to challenge Harkon, so it's pretty clear using the bow is supposed to be canon.
And yet it's not required for the boss fight by gameplay, and my Dragonborn still defeated Harkon without it. So it's not non-canon, so much as a lesser used option that your Dragonborn may have believed impossible.
Regardless, like most artifacts, Auriel's Bow moves around. Its showed up in four of the five single-player games thus far, so it's not too much of a stretch that if Rada al-saran really needed it, he could probably find it (might have to bargain with Sheogorath to unleash it on Cyrodiil as planned) Getting Bloodcursed/Sunhallowed arrows might be the harder part. Gotta find a daughter of Coldharbor for those and there aren't many around.
And you can blast Alduin out of the air with Lightning Storm and a couple destruction potions. But the game still makes it very clear that you canonically need Dragonrend to defeat Alduin.
I don't think that's the same. In the case of Harkon, it's not like you just go "whelp, I'm going see if I can do this without the bow regardless of what the story wants" and then never equip it - like your version of the fight with Alduin.
No, its not like that. Harkon demands the bow. You can hand over the bow in direct response to his demand. "Very well." (Give Auriel's Bow) That's a choice the Devs created for the player to make and the boss fight is harder, but winnable if you do choose to hand over the bow. Breaking his shield with the blessed/cursed arrows isn't necessary to defeat him.
Now, we can argue that common sense would prevent any but the most loyal of Vampire Dragonborn from handing over the bow, but I think that's the point of having that roleplaying option. A loyal Vampire Dragonborn (or a really, really cowardly Dawnguard Dragonborn, I guess?) can hand over the bow...and then Harkon betrays them anyway. Its a good option for role-playing that illustrates the extremes of the selfishly tyrannical nature of Harkon. And because the Devs deliberately included that option in Harkon's dialogue and the player's ability to hand over the bow, its not non-canon that you can defeat Harkon without the bow. In fact, I'd argue that taking that option provided by the Devs makes it clear that Harkon can canonically be defeated. without the bow. (Which has interesting implications for the whole DLC, but I don't want to derail with my thinky thoughts.)
Video with option to hand over the bow:
Nope. The game doesn't even give you the option to challenge him before acquiring the bow. This underlines that the bow must be in play.
That's moving goalposts. Yes, you have to get the bow to advance the quest. So what? After all that work to get it, the Devs gave us the option to give Harkon the bow. Just like how the prophecy was faked up by Vyrthur, the bow isn't necessary to beat Harkon in his boss fight.
And since we're talking about a boss fight here, there's no logic to insisting that canonically you have to use Auriel's Bow. You don't. The Devs - the same ones who made you go hunting for the bow to keep it away from Harkon in the first place - gave you the option to hand the bow over to Harkon when he demands it. Rather than a non-standard game over, you still beat Harkon in his boss fight without it.
But since we're going back and forth, tell you what. You provide your source that you must have Auriel's Bow to defeat Harkon in his boss fight. I've already provided the gameplay option and dialogue where you don't.
Well, let me ask you a question. Do you think the Champion of Cyrodiil did really become champion, archmage, grey fox, listener, knight of the nine and madgod?
So...do you have a source for your contention that the Dragonborn must have Auriel's Bow to defeat Harkon in his boss fight to counter my source from dialogue and gameplay that Auriel's Bow does not need to be used and indeed can be handed over to Harkon, thus is unnecessary to defeat him in his boss fight, or not?
I'm trying to stay on topic here. Harkon vs Rada al-saran in a fight. Rada acquiring Auriel's Bow isn't as necessary as some people make it out to be - though given that ZOS intended it to be a Cyrodiil weapon for chaos like Volendrung, its entirely possible he could get ahold of it in ESO if he bargained with Sheogorath for it.
You're not getting it. I'm trying to explain to you what "canon" means. Using the bow seems canon to me, that is what the story leads to. But there is another option for variety. Just like guild mastery in the TES games. I doubt the protagonists canonically did the main quest and ascended all guilds and finished all sidequests. That would take longer than they lived. But the option is there, for gameplay variety.0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »Lore wise Harkon might be old but we have one little fact we must consider here. Both of them are Vampire Lords but while Harkon sat on his butt and did nothing Rada al-Saran is a sword singer! That's like turning the Dragonborn into a Vampire Lord levels of power and it ended up being Harkon's downfall in the end of Dawnguard. (If the player became a vampire that is.)
Harkon also relies heavily on his blood fountain to stay alive and to draw upon his power. He is terrified of death and I don't see him leaving his castle until the Sun prophecy is complete. Rada al-Saran is a fighter and doesn't seem to fear death to the same degree, and we also have to account for the fact Rada al-Saran fought in the Grey Host's battles and has plenty of combat experience.
Harkon does not stand a chance against Rada al-Saran when you compare the capabilities of the two Lords.
But what if you consider the fact that the literal only way to beat Harkon in-lore is with the auriel's bow? And yet Saran gets defeated really easily by the Vestige in ESO?
Rada does not stand a chance if he doesn't know he needs that bow. And since Harkon probably wouldn't leave his domain to do this fight, Saran would most likely have to confront him there.
I just think it's a bit silly to think that Saran, a character who gets destroyed by someone as weak as the vestige, stands even remotely a chance against Harkon, a vampire lord who would have wiped the floor with the dragonborn if they didn't have the bow.
I feel like people are overstating the need for Auriel's Bow. You can give Harkon the bow before your boss fight and still defeat him. Its just a harder fight if you do.
Think this is non-canon. The game specifically builds a story around the need for the bow. You cannot skip getting the bow to challenge Harkon, so it's pretty clear using the bow is supposed to be canon.
And yet it's not required for the boss fight by gameplay, and my Dragonborn still defeated Harkon without it. So it's not non-canon, so much as a lesser used option that your Dragonborn may have believed impossible.
Regardless, like most artifacts, Auriel's Bow moves around. Its showed up in four of the five single-player games thus far, so it's not too much of a stretch that if Rada al-saran really needed it, he could probably find it (might have to bargain with Sheogorath to unleash it on Cyrodiil as planned) Getting Bloodcursed/Sunhallowed arrows might be the harder part. Gotta find a daughter of Coldharbor for those and there aren't many around.
And you can blast Alduin out of the air with Lightning Storm and a couple destruction potions. But the game still makes it very clear that you canonically need Dragonrend to defeat Alduin.
I don't think that's the same. In the case of Harkon, it's not like you just go "whelp, I'm going see if I can do this without the bow regardless of what the story wants" and then never equip it - like your version of the fight with Alduin.
No, its not like that. Harkon demands the bow. You can hand over the bow in direct response to his demand. "Very well." (Give Auriel's Bow) That's a choice the Devs created for the player to make and the boss fight is harder, but winnable if you do choose to hand over the bow. Breaking his shield with the blessed/cursed arrows isn't necessary to defeat him.
Now, we can argue that common sense would prevent any but the most loyal of Vampire Dragonborn from handing over the bow, but I think that's the point of having that roleplaying option. A loyal Vampire Dragonborn (or a really, really cowardly Dawnguard Dragonborn, I guess?) can hand over the bow...and then Harkon betrays them anyway. Its a good option for role-playing that illustrates the extremes of the selfishly tyrannical nature of Harkon. And because the Devs deliberately included that option in Harkon's dialogue and the player's ability to hand over the bow, its not non-canon that you can defeat Harkon without the bow. In fact, I'd argue that taking that option provided by the Devs makes it clear that Harkon can canonically be defeated. without the bow. (Which has interesting implications for the whole DLC, but I don't want to derail with my thinky thoughts.)
Video with option to hand over the bow:
Nope. The game doesn't even give you the option to challenge him before acquiring the bow. This underlines that the bow must be in play.
That's moving goalposts. Yes, you have to get the bow to advance the quest. So what? After all that work to get it, the Devs gave us the option to give Harkon the bow. Just like how the prophecy was faked up by Vyrthur, the bow isn't necessary to beat Harkon in his boss fight.
And since we're talking about a boss fight here, there's no logic to insisting that canonically you have to use Auriel's Bow. You don't. The Devs - the same ones who made you go hunting for the bow to keep it away from Harkon in the first place - gave you the option to hand the bow over to Harkon when he demands it. Rather than a non-standard game over, you still beat Harkon in his boss fight without it.
But since we're going back and forth, tell you what. You provide your source that you must have Auriel's Bow to defeat Harkon in his boss fight. I've already provided the gameplay option and dialogue where you don't.
Well, let me ask you a question. Do you think the Champion of Cyrodiil did really become champion, archmage, grey fox, listener, knight of the nine and madgod?
So...do you have a source for your contention that the Dragonborn must have Auriel's Bow to defeat Harkon in his boss fight to counter my source from dialogue and gameplay that Auriel's Bow does not need to be used and indeed can be handed over to Harkon, thus is unnecessary to defeat him in his boss fight, or not?
I'm trying to stay on topic here. Harkon vs Rada al-saran in a fight. Rada acquiring Auriel's Bow isn't as necessary as some people make it out to be - though given that ZOS intended it to be a Cyrodiil weapon for chaos like Volendrung, its entirely possible he could get ahold of it in ESO if he bargained with Sheogorath for it.
You're not getting it. I'm trying to explain to you what "canon" means. Using the bow seems canon to me, that is what the story leads to. But there is another option for variety. Just like guild mastery in the TES games. I doubt the protagonists canonically did the main quest and ascended all guilds and finished all sidequests. That would take longer than they lived. But the option is there, for gameplay variety.
If that's what you were going for, you should have just said so. As it was, random Oblivion question came out of left field.
I'm using definitions of canon as follows:
Peter Hines answer to a question about canon Stormcloak vs imperial seems most appropriate given that we're debating a player choice whether or not to hand Harkon the bow.:
"As with other Elder Scrolls games(like the multiple endings to Daggerfall) the studio doesn’t really force one outcome as canon. That’d sort of diminish each player’s choice."
https://mobile.twitter.com/DCDeacon/status/961998469870292992
But this one by Todd Howard is also appropriate: "The truth in Elder Scrolls, primarily, is what you saw on the screen." He goes on to explain in an interview, speaking of fan theories, "If you saw it on the screen that's number one, that's the most truth. If you read it in the game, that's second truth. If you read it in an official thing outside the game, in the manual, that's the third. If you read it from a fan on the Internet that's way down there, that's like not on the list, right! But that's the main three. On the screen, something you see happen, regardless of what game it is or when it came out, that for us is the primary. A book in the game is second, and then a book that's official outside the game is third." https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/General:Todd_Howard_PAX_East_2019_Interview and https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Canon
Since giving Auriel's Bow to Lord Harkon is a legitimate, fully voiced option in the game that still results in the Dragonborn being able to defeat him, it falls into the category of "player choice". Therefore, according to Peter Hines, the studio is unlikely to force one choice or the other, so giving Auriel's Bow to Harkon is a canon option. Moreover, when we look at Todd Howard's hierarchy of truth in TES lore, we see that what we did in the game is first and foremost when it comes to the priority of canonicity. So again, given that handing over Auriel's Bow is a legitimate, fully voiced option provided by the Devs, I don't see any grounds for calling it a non-canon option.
So, er, I'm still waiting for you to provide a source for why Auriel's Bow is absolutely necessary for the player to have before they can kill Harkon, as opposed to my source from gameplay and dialogue that its demonstrably not necessary to use in his boss fight. All you seem to be doing is trying to handwave away a legitimate, fully voiced gameplay choice by calling it "non-canon" without providing any sources to that effect.2 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Rada al-SaranVayln_Ninetails wrote: »Thevampirenight wrote: »Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »Only reason I vote Harkon is because at least his fight in-game is challenging. I suspect that the Rada Al Saran fight is going to be a snooze fest that can be light-attacked to win, even though he's supposed to be this mythical being that fought a goddess. I guess if we beat him that means we're as strong as him, right? (So again **why cant we be vampire lords if that is the case**)
Basically, I will be disappointed if this year ends with us killing the guy. I feel like this isn't something we as players should be able to kill. It'd be like us 1v1ing molag bal without literally ascending with the power of another daedric prince.
Harkon at least doesn't have to face a vestige that is so powerful that even the last Dragonborn doesn't have the skill the vestige does. Vestige would have likely cut Harkon through like cheese and said too easy. Then move to the next threat.
But this thread isn't about how powerful the vestige is. Its about a fight between these two powerful vampire lords.
If you claim the vestige is so powerful then how come we can't become vampire lords and why can't a vestige 1v1 a dragon? As @TX12001rwb17_ESO said, Lord Harkon had to fight someone WAY worse. The literal dragon born.
And I'm saying that Harkon would win because of this fact. Saran literally gets killed by the vestige, who is waaaaay weaker than a dragon born. Lord Harkon would probably wipe the floor with an ESO character, it'd be like trying to solo the final boss of kyne's aegis by yourself. That is how the fight would go.
If Lord Harkon can stand up against the dragonborn, killing Saran (who gets killed by the vestige) should be no problem. That is my argument and probably the reason why Lord Harkon doesn't even consider Saran a threat and chose to stay hidden. He is nothing.
Because gameplay mechanics? Like why is this even a question? The vestige is about as powerful as the last dragonborn. Harkon is weaker than the other guy, harkon was never truly a challenge for the dragonborn
The Vestige is weaker than the Dohvakiin. You need groups for content in ESO, while the DB just yolo soloes everything. Especially noticeable in Sunspire, where Vestiges break easily trying to kill a single dragon. Meanwhile, DB has no problem killing a dragon. Twice. Before breakfast. While being overencumbered from picking a flower.
Wth are you even talking about? The vestige is one person, you are playing as an undaunted when you take on dungeons.
The vestige defeated molag bal with the help of the amulet, and mannimarco basically alone, that makes him extremely powerful, close or equal to the dragonborn.
You think someone who defeated mannimarco basically alone and molag bal needs the help of some puny adventurer to take on dungeons? Give me a break.
The dragonborn was not serious in his fight against Harkon, do you even realize how powerful Alduin is? Harkon does not compare, he's just a powerful vampire, nothing more, Alduin is a god basically.
Martin Septim did the same to Mehrunes Dagon, who is probably even more powerful than Molag Bal. And Martin was really not special, except for his OP voice actor.
Mehrunes is about on par with molag bal. Anyway you skipped over the fact that mannimarco is the strongest necromancer in lore, he literally became a god in another timeline.
The vestige defeated him.
You also quietly ignored the rest of the point and cherry picked what you wanted to respond to.
Anyway, base vestige is probably weaker than the dragonborn, but amulet empowered vestige is definitely stronger.
Mannimarco was defeated by the Vestige, Lyris, Sai and Abnur, all powerful warriors in their own way. And when Mannimarco wanted to reveal his full power, he got fist slapped by Molag Bal himself. So no, the Vestige did not 1v1 Manni and we don't know if the companions would have bested him without Bal's intervention.
The Alduin we see in Skyrim is not the real Alduin. He's corrupted and removed from his godly aspect. Alduin is specifically designed to be undefeatable and if we had faced this original Alduin, our timeline would have ended.
No the Alduin that was defeated in skyrim is just not at full power, the closer he gets to end time the stronger he becomes, that doesn't mean he's no longer a god or really strong. He's for sure much stronger than harkon.
He was still pretty confident that he could take down the world and eat the souls in Sovengarde, although he lost because of the dragonborn, that should put things into prospective.
Anyway, the vestige is really strong.
Yes, Alduin should be undefeatable near the end time.Edited by JinMori on October 3, 2020 10:59AM0 -
Vayln_Ninetails✭✭✭✭✭HarkonVayln_Ninetails wrote: »Thevampirenight wrote: »Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »Only reason I vote Harkon is because at least his fight in-game is challenging. I suspect that the Rada Al Saran fight is going to be a snooze fest that can be light-attacked to win, even though he's supposed to be this mythical being that fought a goddess. I guess if we beat him that means we're as strong as him, right? (So again **why cant we be vampire lords if that is the case**)
Basically, I will be disappointed if this year ends with us killing the guy. I feel like this isn't something we as players should be able to kill. It'd be like us 1v1ing molag bal without literally ascending with the power of another daedric prince.
Harkon at least doesn't have to face a vestige that is so powerful that even the last Dragonborn doesn't have the skill the vestige does. Vestige would have likely cut Harkon through like cheese and said too easy. Then move to the next threat.
But this thread isn't about how powerful the vestige is. Its about a fight between these two powerful vampire lords.
If you claim the vestige is so powerful then how come we can't become vampire lords and why can't a vestige 1v1 a dragon? As @TX12001rwb17_ESO said, Lord Harkon had to fight someone WAY worse. The literal dragon born.
And I'm saying that Harkon would win because of this fact. Saran literally gets killed by the vestige, who is waaaaay weaker than a dragon born. Lord Harkon would probably wipe the floor with an ESO character, it'd be like trying to solo the final boss of kyne's aegis by yourself. That is how the fight would go.
If Lord Harkon can stand up against the dragonborn, killing Saran (who gets killed by the vestige) should be no problem. That is my argument and probably the reason why Lord Harkon doesn't even consider Saran a threat and chose to stay hidden. He is nothing.
Because gameplay mechanics? Like why is this even a question? The vestige is about as powerful as the last dragonborn. Harkon is weaker than the other guy, harkon was never truly a challenge for the dragonborn
The Vestige is weaker than the Dohvakiin. You need groups for content in ESO, while the DB just yolo soloes everything. Especially noticeable in Sunspire, where Vestiges break easily trying to kill a single dragon. Meanwhile, DB has no problem killing a dragon. Twice. Before breakfast. While being overencumbered from picking a flower.
Wth are you even talking about? The vestige is one person, you are playing as an undaunted when you take on dungeons.
The vestige defeated molag bal with the help of the amulet, and mannimarco basically alone, that makes him extremely powerful, close or equal to the dragonborn.
You think someone who defeated mannimarco basically alone and molag bal needs the help of some puny adventurer to take on dungeons? Give me a break.
The dragonborn was not serious in his fight against Harkon, do you even realize how powerful Alduin is? Harkon does not compare, he's just a powerful vampire, nothing more, Alduin is a god basically.
Martin Septim did the same to Mehrunes Dagon, who is probably even more powerful than Molag Bal. And Martin was really not special, except for his OP voice actor.
Mehrunes is about on par with molag bal. Anyway you skipped over the fact that mannimarco is the strongest necromancer in lore, he literally became a god in another timeline.
The vestige defeated him.
You also quietly ignored the rest of the point and cherry picked what you wanted to respond to.
Anyway, base vestige is probably weaker than the dragonborn, but amulet empowered vestige is definitely stronger.
Mannimarco was defeated by the Vestige, Lyris, Sai and Abnur, all powerful warriors in their own way. And when Mannimarco wanted to reveal his full power, he got fist slapped by Molag Bal himself. So no, the Vestige did not 1v1 Manni and we don't know if the companions would have bested him without Bal's intervention.
The Alduin we see in Skyrim is not the real Alduin. He's corrupted and removed from his godly aspect. Alduin is specifically designed to be undefeatable and if we had faced this original Alduin, our timeline would have ended.
No the Alduin that was defeated in skyrim is just not at full power, the closer he gets to end time the stronger he becomes, that doesn't mean he's no longer a god or really strong. He's for sure much stronger than harkon.
He was still pretty confident that he could take down the world and eat the souls in Sovengarde, although he lost because of the dragonborn, that should put things into prospective.
Anyway, the vestige is really strong.
Yes, Alduin should be undefeatable near the end time.
Wasn't the whole reason why we couldn't become vampire lords was because they were mythic and very powerful?
Yet you say the vestige is very strong and mythic and powerful. Which is what you are claiming by saying they can stand up alongside the dragonborn in terms of being a theat.
Essentially, my argument is that since the devs won't let us become vampire lords because they're really strong, then that must mean we as a vestige are more normal and not supposed to be very strong.Edited by Vayln_Ninetails on October 3, 2020 11:10AM0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »Thevampirenight wrote: »Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »Only reason I vote Harkon is because at least his fight in-game is challenging. I suspect that the Rada Al Saran fight is going to be a snooze fest that can be light-attacked to win, even though he's supposed to be this mythical being that fought a goddess. I guess if we beat him that means we're as strong as him, right? (So again **why cant we be vampire lords if that is the case**)
Basically, I will be disappointed if this year ends with us killing the guy. I feel like this isn't something we as players should be able to kill. It'd be like us 1v1ing molag bal without literally ascending with the power of another daedric prince.
Harkon at least doesn't have to face a vestige that is so powerful that even the last Dragonborn doesn't have the skill the vestige does. Vestige would have likely cut Harkon through like cheese and said too easy. Then move to the next threat.
But this thread isn't about how powerful the vestige is. Its about a fight between these two powerful vampire lords.
If you claim the vestige is so powerful then how come we can't become vampire lords and why can't a vestige 1v1 a dragon? As @TX12001rwb17_ESO said, Lord Harkon had to fight someone WAY worse. The literal dragon born.
And I'm saying that Harkon would win because of this fact. Saran literally gets killed by the vestige, who is waaaaay weaker than a dragon born. Lord Harkon would probably wipe the floor with an ESO character, it'd be like trying to solo the final boss of kyne's aegis by yourself. That is how the fight would go.
If Lord Harkon can stand up against the dragonborn, killing Saran (who gets killed by the vestige) should be no problem. That is my argument and probably the reason why Lord Harkon doesn't even consider Saran a threat and chose to stay hidden. He is nothing.
Because gameplay mechanics? Like why is this even a question? The vestige is about as powerful as the last dragonborn. Harkon is weaker than the other guy, harkon was never truly a challenge for the dragonborn
The Vestige is weaker than the Dohvakiin. You need groups for content in ESO, while the DB just yolo soloes everything. Especially noticeable in Sunspire, where Vestiges break easily trying to kill a single dragon. Meanwhile, DB has no problem killing a dragon. Twice. Before breakfast. While being overencumbered from picking a flower.
Wth are you even talking about? The vestige is one person, you are playing as an undaunted when you take on dungeons.
The vestige defeated molag bal with the help of the amulet, and mannimarco basically alone, that makes him extremely powerful, close or equal to the dragonborn.
You think someone who defeated mannimarco basically alone and molag bal needs the help of some puny adventurer to take on dungeons? Give me a break.
The dragonborn was not serious in his fight against Harkon, do you even realize how powerful Alduin is? Harkon does not compare, he's just a powerful vampire, nothing more, Alduin is a god basically.
Martin Septim did the same to Mehrunes Dagon, who is probably even more powerful than Molag Bal. And Martin was really not special, except for his OP voice actor.
Mehrunes is about on par with molag bal. Anyway you skipped over the fact that mannimarco is the strongest necromancer in lore, he literally became a god in another timeline.
The vestige defeated him.
You also quietly ignored the rest of the point and cherry picked what you wanted to respond to.
Anyway, base vestige is probably weaker than the dragonborn, but amulet empowered vestige is definitely stronger.
Mannimarco was defeated by the Vestige, Lyris, Sai and Abnur, all powerful warriors in their own way. And when Mannimarco wanted to reveal his full power, he got fist slapped by Molag Bal himself. So no, the Vestige did not 1v1 Manni and we don't know if the companions would have bested him without Bal's intervention.
The Alduin we see in Skyrim is not the real Alduin. He's corrupted and removed from his godly aspect. Alduin is specifically designed to be undefeatable and if we had faced this original Alduin, our timeline would have ended.
No the Alduin that was defeated in skyrim is just not at full power, the closer he gets to end time the stronger he becomes, that doesn't mean he's no longer a god or really strong. He's for sure much stronger than harkon.
He was still pretty confident that he could take down the world and eat the souls in Sovengarde, although he lost because of the dragonborn, that should put things into prospective.
Anyway, the vestige is really strong.
Yes, Alduin should be undefeatable near the end time.
Wasn't the whole reason why we couldn't become vampire lords was because they were mythic and very powerful?
Yet you say the vestige is very strong and mythic and powerful. Which is what you are claiming by saying they can stand up alongside the dragonborn in terms of being a theat.
Essentially, my argument is that since the devs won't let us become vampire lords because they're really strong, then that must mean we as a vestige are more normal and not supposed to be very strong.
Unless that really means "One Vestige vampire lord is mythic, strong, and powerful. A million vestige vampire lords is a plague the likes of which Tamriel has never seen." Being an MMO does present some problems with how to handle theoretically rare stuff happening to a bunch of player characters, and ESO tries to thread that needle between handing out cool stuff and immersion.
That being said, there's not many ways to become a full-blooded Vampire Lord, and the ones currently alive might not want to annoy Molag Bal by turning us. Lamae Bal is pretty clear she's turning us because she hates his guts, whereas Harkon seems pretty loyal.
Though it does bring to mind an interesting thought: the Vestige is going to defeat Rada al-saran, but since Auriel's Bow and the Thu'um aren't necessary to use in Harkon's boss fight, the Vestige could probably solo Harkon too. The only real advantage the Dragonborn has over the Vestige there is the ability to freeze time so they can chug healing potions.1 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Rada al-SaranVayln_Ninetails wrote: »Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »Thevampirenight wrote: »Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »Only reason I vote Harkon is because at least his fight in-game is challenging. I suspect that the Rada Al Saran fight is going to be a snooze fest that can be light-attacked to win, even though he's supposed to be this mythical being that fought a goddess. I guess if we beat him that means we're as strong as him, right? (So again **why cant we be vampire lords if that is the case**)
Basically, I will be disappointed if this year ends with us killing the guy. I feel like this isn't something we as players should be able to kill. It'd be like us 1v1ing molag bal without literally ascending with the power of another daedric prince.
Harkon at least doesn't have to face a vestige that is so powerful that even the last Dragonborn doesn't have the skill the vestige does. Vestige would have likely cut Harkon through like cheese and said too easy. Then move to the next threat.
But this thread isn't about how powerful the vestige is. Its about a fight between these two powerful vampire lords.
If you claim the vestige is so powerful then how come we can't become vampire lords and why can't a vestige 1v1 a dragon? As @TX12001rwb17_ESO said, Lord Harkon had to fight someone WAY worse. The literal dragon born.
And I'm saying that Harkon would win because of this fact. Saran literally gets killed by the vestige, who is waaaaay weaker than a dragon born. Lord Harkon would probably wipe the floor with an ESO character, it'd be like trying to solo the final boss of kyne's aegis by yourself. That is how the fight would go.
If Lord Harkon can stand up against the dragonborn, killing Saran (who gets killed by the vestige) should be no problem. That is my argument and probably the reason why Lord Harkon doesn't even consider Saran a threat and chose to stay hidden. He is nothing.
Because gameplay mechanics? Like why is this even a question? The vestige is about as powerful as the last dragonborn. Harkon is weaker than the other guy, harkon was never truly a challenge for the dragonborn
The Vestige is weaker than the Dohvakiin. You need groups for content in ESO, while the DB just yolo soloes everything. Especially noticeable in Sunspire, where Vestiges break easily trying to kill a single dragon. Meanwhile, DB has no problem killing a dragon. Twice. Before breakfast. While being overencumbered from picking a flower.
Wth are you even talking about? The vestige is one person, you are playing as an undaunted when you take on dungeons.
The vestige defeated molag bal with the help of the amulet, and mannimarco basically alone, that makes him extremely powerful, close or equal to the dragonborn.
You think someone who defeated mannimarco basically alone and molag bal needs the help of some puny adventurer to take on dungeons? Give me a break.
The dragonborn was not serious in his fight against Harkon, do you even realize how powerful Alduin is? Harkon does not compare, he's just a powerful vampire, nothing more, Alduin is a god basically.
Martin Septim did the same to Mehrunes Dagon, who is probably even more powerful than Molag Bal. And Martin was really not special, except for his OP voice actor.
Mehrunes is about on par with molag bal. Anyway you skipped over the fact that mannimarco is the strongest necromancer in lore, he literally became a god in another timeline.
The vestige defeated him.
You also quietly ignored the rest of the point and cherry picked what you wanted to respond to.
Anyway, base vestige is probably weaker than the dragonborn, but amulet empowered vestige is definitely stronger.
Mannimarco was defeated by the Vestige, Lyris, Sai and Abnur, all powerful warriors in their own way. And when Mannimarco wanted to reveal his full power, he got fist slapped by Molag Bal himself. So no, the Vestige did not 1v1 Manni and we don't know if the companions would have bested him without Bal's intervention.
The Alduin we see in Skyrim is not the real Alduin. He's corrupted and removed from his godly aspect. Alduin is specifically designed to be undefeatable and if we had faced this original Alduin, our timeline would have ended.
No the Alduin that was defeated in skyrim is just not at full power, the closer he gets to end time the stronger he becomes, that doesn't mean he's no longer a god or really strong. He's for sure much stronger than harkon.
He was still pretty confident that he could take down the world and eat the souls in Sovengarde, although he lost because of the dragonborn, that should put things into prospective.
Anyway, the vestige is really strong.
Yes, Alduin should be undefeatable near the end time.
Wasn't the whole reason why we couldn't become vampire lords was because they were mythic and very powerful?
Yet you say the vestige is very strong and mythic and powerful. Which is what you are claiming by saying they can stand up alongside the dragonborn in terms of being a theat.
Essentially, my argument is that since the devs won't let us become vampire lords because they're really strong, then that must mean we as a vestige are more normal and not supposed to be very strong.
There's literally an ultimate in the game that transforms you into a lord.
And even if there wasn't it doesn't matter.
The vestige is really strong.
The protagonist of oblivion could not transform into a vampire lord as far as i can remember, but he still became one of the strongest being in the lore, Vanus and mannimarco both are not lords in lore.
The point is irrelevant. Just because you do not have the possibility of becoming a vampire lord that doesn't diminish your potential power, there are so many examples of this.
By feats the dragonborn and the vestige both have great feats, the base dragonborn is probably stronger than the vestige, but the strongest vestige is more powerful than the dragonborn.Edited by JinMori on October 3, 2020 2:14PM0 -
TX12001rwb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »Thevampirenight wrote: »Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »Only reason I vote Harkon is because at least his fight in-game is challenging. I suspect that the Rada Al Saran fight is going to be a snooze fest that can be light-attacked to win, even though he's supposed to be this mythical being that fought a goddess. I guess if we beat him that means we're as strong as him, right? (So again **why cant we be vampire lords if that is the case**)
Basically, I will be disappointed if this year ends with us killing the guy. I feel like this isn't something we as players should be able to kill. It'd be like us 1v1ing molag bal without literally ascending with the power of another daedric prince.
Harkon at least doesn't have to face a vestige that is so powerful that even the last Dragonborn doesn't have the skill the vestige does. Vestige would have likely cut Harkon through like cheese and said too easy. Then move to the next threat.
But this thread isn't about how powerful the vestige is. Its about a fight between these two powerful vampire lords.
If you claim the vestige is so powerful then how come we can't become vampire lords and why can't a vestige 1v1 a dragon? As @TX12001rwb17_ESO said, Lord Harkon had to fight someone WAY worse. The literal dragon born.
And I'm saying that Harkon would win because of this fact. Saran literally gets killed by the vestige, who is waaaaay weaker than a dragon born. Lord Harkon would probably wipe the floor with an ESO character, it'd be like trying to solo the final boss of kyne's aegis by yourself. That is how the fight would go.
If Lord Harkon can stand up against the dragonborn, killing Saran (who gets killed by the vestige) should be no problem. That is my argument and probably the reason why Lord Harkon doesn't even consider Saran a threat and chose to stay hidden. He is nothing.
Because gameplay mechanics? Like why is this even a question? The vestige is about as powerful as the last dragonborn. Harkon is weaker than the other guy, harkon was never truly a challenge for the dragonborn
The Vestige is weaker than the Dohvakiin. You need groups for content in ESO, while the DB just yolo soloes everything. Especially noticeable in Sunspire, where Vestiges break easily trying to kill a single dragon. Meanwhile, DB has no problem killing a dragon. Twice. Before breakfast. While being overencumbered from picking a flower.
Wth are you even talking about? The vestige is one person, you are playing as an undaunted when you take on dungeons.
The vestige defeated molag bal with the help of the amulet, and mannimarco basically alone, that makes him extremely powerful, close or equal to the dragonborn.
You think someone who defeated mannimarco basically alone and molag bal needs the help of some puny adventurer to take on dungeons? Give me a break.
The dragonborn was not serious in his fight against Harkon, do you even realize how powerful Alduin is? Harkon does not compare, he's just a powerful vampire, nothing more, Alduin is a god basically.
Martin Septim did the same to Mehrunes Dagon, who is probably even more powerful than Molag Bal. And Martin was really not special, except for his OP voice actor.
Mehrunes is about on par with molag bal. Anyway you skipped over the fact that mannimarco is the strongest necromancer in lore, he literally became a god in another timeline.
The vestige defeated him.
You also quietly ignored the rest of the point and cherry picked what you wanted to respond to.
Anyway, base vestige is probably weaker than the dragonborn, but amulet empowered vestige is definitely stronger.
Mannimarco was defeated by the Vestige, Lyris, Sai and Abnur, all powerful warriors in their own way. And when Mannimarco wanted to reveal his full power, he got fist slapped by Molag Bal himself. So no, the Vestige did not 1v1 Manni and we don't know if the companions would have bested him without Bal's intervention.
The Alduin we see in Skyrim is not the real Alduin. He's corrupted and removed from his godly aspect. Alduin is specifically designed to be undefeatable and if we had faced this original Alduin, our timeline would have ended.
No the Alduin that was defeated in skyrim is just not at full power, the closer he gets to end time the stronger he becomes, that doesn't mean he's no longer a god or really strong. He's for sure much stronger than harkon.
He was still pretty confident that he could take down the world and eat the souls in Sovengarde, although he lost because of the dragonborn, that should put things into prospective.
Anyway, the vestige is really strong.
Yes, Alduin should be undefeatable near the end time.
Wasn't the whole reason why we couldn't become vampire lords was because they were mythic and very powerful?
Yet you say the vestige is very strong and mythic and powerful. Which is what you are claiming by saying they can stand up alongside the dragonborn in terms of being a theat.
Essentially, my argument is that since the devs won't let us become vampire lords because they're really strong, then that must mean we as a vestige are more normal and not supposed to be very strong.
There's literally an ultimate in the game that transforms you into a lord.
And even if there wasn't it doesn't matter.
The vestige is really strong.
The protagonist of oblivion could not transform into a vampire lord as far as i can remember, but he still became one of the strongest being in the lore, Vanus and mannimarco both are not lords in lore.
The point is irrelevant. Just because you do not have the possibility of becoming a vampire lord that doesn't diminish your potential power, there are so many examples of this.
By feats the dragonborn and the vestige both have great feats, the base dragonborn is probably stronger than the vestige, but the strongest vestige is more powerful than the dragonborn.
The Blood Scion is not a Vampire Lord, secondly the LDB is far more powerful going by some dialogue with Vastarie regarding mortal souls and their limitations, the LDB has a divine soul which would not have these limitations alloiwng their potential to be far higher then the Vestige who post-main quest is now limited by the soul of a mere mortal not to mention all the Dragons the LDB consumes, you know Miraak is probably more powerful then the Vestige by himself, he is probably more powerful then Rada-Al-Saran and Lord Harkon combined and the LDB devours him as well.
And no the whole Alduin not being at full power is just a fan theory, thirdly you mention Mannimarco, Vanus Galerion and the Champion of Cyrodiil, no the CoC is something far more powerful then a Vampire Lord, they become a Daedric Prince, Mannimarco was a Lich turned into a God and Vanus Galerion? he is a pushover who thinks he is mightier then he actually is, no idea why you even brought him into the discussion.Edited by TX12001rwb17_ESO on October 3, 2020 8:18PM0 -
Vayln_Ninetails✭✭✭✭✭HarkonVayln_Ninetails wrote: »Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »Thevampirenight wrote: »Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »Only reason I vote Harkon is because at least his fight in-game is challenging. I suspect that the Rada Al Saran fight is going to be a snooze fest that can be light-attacked to win, even though he's supposed to be this mythical being that fought a goddess. I guess if we beat him that means we're as strong as him, right? (So again **why cant we be vampire lords if that is the case**)
Basically, I will be disappointed if this year ends with us killing the guy. I feel like this isn't something we as players should be able to kill. It'd be like us 1v1ing molag bal without literally ascending with the power of another daedric prince.
Harkon at least doesn't have to face a vestige that is so powerful that even the last Dragonborn doesn't have the skill the vestige does. Vestige would have likely cut Harkon through like cheese and said too easy. Then move to the next threat.
But this thread isn't about how powerful the vestige is. Its about a fight between these two powerful vampire lords.
If you claim the vestige is so powerful then how come we can't become vampire lords and why can't a vestige 1v1 a dragon? As @TX12001rwb17_ESO said, Lord Harkon had to fight someone WAY worse. The literal dragon born.
And I'm saying that Harkon would win because of this fact. Saran literally gets killed by the vestige, who is waaaaay weaker than a dragon born. Lord Harkon would probably wipe the floor with an ESO character, it'd be like trying to solo the final boss of kyne's aegis by yourself. That is how the fight would go.
If Lord Harkon can stand up against the dragonborn, killing Saran (who gets killed by the vestige) should be no problem. That is my argument and probably the reason why Lord Harkon doesn't even consider Saran a threat and chose to stay hidden. He is nothing.
Because gameplay mechanics? Like why is this even a question? The vestige is about as powerful as the last dragonborn. Harkon is weaker than the other guy, harkon was never truly a challenge for the dragonborn
The Vestige is weaker than the Dohvakiin. You need groups for content in ESO, while the DB just yolo soloes everything. Especially noticeable in Sunspire, where Vestiges break easily trying to kill a single dragon. Meanwhile, DB has no problem killing a dragon. Twice. Before breakfast. While being overencumbered from picking a flower.
Wth are you even talking about? The vestige is one person, you are playing as an undaunted when you take on dungeons.
The vestige defeated molag bal with the help of the amulet, and mannimarco basically alone, that makes him extremely powerful, close or equal to the dragonborn.
You think someone who defeated mannimarco basically alone and molag bal needs the help of some puny adventurer to take on dungeons? Give me a break.
The dragonborn was not serious in his fight against Harkon, do you even realize how powerful Alduin is? Harkon does not compare, he's just a powerful vampire, nothing more, Alduin is a god basically.
Martin Septim did the same to Mehrunes Dagon, who is probably even more powerful than Molag Bal. And Martin was really not special, except for his OP voice actor.
Mehrunes is about on par with molag bal. Anyway you skipped over the fact that mannimarco is the strongest necromancer in lore, he literally became a god in another timeline.
The vestige defeated him.
You also quietly ignored the rest of the point and cherry picked what you wanted to respond to.
Anyway, base vestige is probably weaker than the dragonborn, but amulet empowered vestige is definitely stronger.
Mannimarco was defeated by the Vestige, Lyris, Sai and Abnur, all powerful warriors in their own way. And when Mannimarco wanted to reveal his full power, he got fist slapped by Molag Bal himself. So no, the Vestige did not 1v1 Manni and we don't know if the companions would have bested him without Bal's intervention.
The Alduin we see in Skyrim is not the real Alduin. He's corrupted and removed from his godly aspect. Alduin is specifically designed to be undefeatable and if we had faced this original Alduin, our timeline would have ended.
No the Alduin that was defeated in skyrim is just not at full power, the closer he gets to end time the stronger he becomes, that doesn't mean he's no longer a god or really strong. He's for sure much stronger than harkon.
He was still pretty confident that he could take down the world and eat the souls in Sovengarde, although he lost because of the dragonborn, that should put things into prospective.
Anyway, the vestige is really strong.
Yes, Alduin should be undefeatable near the end time.
Wasn't the whole reason why we couldn't become vampire lords was because they were mythic and very powerful?
Yet you say the vestige is very strong and mythic and powerful. Which is what you are claiming by saying they can stand up alongside the dragonborn in terms of being a theat.
Essentially, my argument is that since the devs won't let us become vampire lords because they're really strong, then that must mean we as a vestige are more normal and not supposed to be very strong.
There's literally an ultimate in the game that transforms you into a lord.
And even if there wasn't it doesn't matter.
The vestige is really strong.
The protagonist of oblivion could not transform into a vampire lord as far as i can remember, but he still became one of the strongest being in the lore, Vanus and mannimarco both are not lords in lore.
The point is irrelevant. Just because you do not have the possibility of becoming a vampire lord that doesn't diminish your potential power, there are so many examples of this.
By feats the dragonborn and the vestige both have great feats, the base dragonborn is probably stronger than the vestige, but the strongest vestige is more powerful than the dragonborn.
Ahhh you think the Blood Scion is a vampire lord? That's all i had to read. @TX12001rwb17_ESO said it best.0 -
Vayln_Ninetails✭✭✭✭✭HarkonVaranisArano wrote: »Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »Thevampirenight wrote: »Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »Only reason I vote Harkon is because at least his fight in-game is challenging. I suspect that the Rada Al Saran fight is going to be a snooze fest that can be light-attacked to win, even though he's supposed to be this mythical being that fought a goddess. I guess if we beat him that means we're as strong as him, right? (So again **why cant we be vampire lords if that is the case**)
Basically, I will be disappointed if this year ends with us killing the guy. I feel like this isn't something we as players should be able to kill. It'd be like us 1v1ing molag bal without literally ascending with the power of another daedric prince.
Harkon at least doesn't have to face a vestige that is so powerful that even the last Dragonborn doesn't have the skill the vestige does. Vestige would have likely cut Harkon through like cheese and said too easy. Then move to the next threat.
But this thread isn't about how powerful the vestige is. Its about a fight between these two powerful vampire lords.
If you claim the vestige is so powerful then how come we can't become vampire lords and why can't a vestige 1v1 a dragon? As @TX12001rwb17_ESO said, Lord Harkon had to fight someone WAY worse. The literal dragon born.
And I'm saying that Harkon would win because of this fact. Saran literally gets killed by the vestige, who is waaaaay weaker than a dragon born. Lord Harkon would probably wipe the floor with an ESO character, it'd be like trying to solo the final boss of kyne's aegis by yourself. That is how the fight would go.
If Lord Harkon can stand up against the dragonborn, killing Saran (who gets killed by the vestige) should be no problem. That is my argument and probably the reason why Lord Harkon doesn't even consider Saran a threat and chose to stay hidden. He is nothing.
Because gameplay mechanics? Like why is this even a question? The vestige is about as powerful as the last dragonborn. Harkon is weaker than the other guy, harkon was never truly a challenge for the dragonborn
The Vestige is weaker than the Dohvakiin. You need groups for content in ESO, while the DB just yolo soloes everything. Especially noticeable in Sunspire, where Vestiges break easily trying to kill a single dragon. Meanwhile, DB has no problem killing a dragon. Twice. Before breakfast. While being overencumbered from picking a flower.
Wth are you even talking about? The vestige is one person, you are playing as an undaunted when you take on dungeons.
The vestige defeated molag bal with the help of the amulet, and mannimarco basically alone, that makes him extremely powerful, close or equal to the dragonborn.
You think someone who defeated mannimarco basically alone and molag bal needs the help of some puny adventurer to take on dungeons? Give me a break.
The dragonborn was not serious in his fight against Harkon, do you even realize how powerful Alduin is? Harkon does not compare, he's just a powerful vampire, nothing more, Alduin is a god basically.
Martin Septim did the same to Mehrunes Dagon, who is probably even more powerful than Molag Bal. And Martin was really not special, except for his OP voice actor.
Mehrunes is about on par with molag bal. Anyway you skipped over the fact that mannimarco is the strongest necromancer in lore, he literally became a god in another timeline.
The vestige defeated him.
You also quietly ignored the rest of the point and cherry picked what you wanted to respond to.
Anyway, base vestige is probably weaker than the dragonborn, but amulet empowered vestige is definitely stronger.
Mannimarco was defeated by the Vestige, Lyris, Sai and Abnur, all powerful warriors in their own way. And when Mannimarco wanted to reveal his full power, he got fist slapped by Molag Bal himself. So no, the Vestige did not 1v1 Manni and we don't know if the companions would have bested him without Bal's intervention.
The Alduin we see in Skyrim is not the real Alduin. He's corrupted and removed from his godly aspect. Alduin is specifically designed to be undefeatable and if we had faced this original Alduin, our timeline would have ended.
No the Alduin that was defeated in skyrim is just not at full power, the closer he gets to end time the stronger he becomes, that doesn't mean he's no longer a god or really strong. He's for sure much stronger than harkon.
He was still pretty confident that he could take down the world and eat the souls in Sovengarde, although he lost because of the dragonborn, that should put things into prospective.
Anyway, the vestige is really strong.
Yes, Alduin should be undefeatable near the end time.
Wasn't the whole reason why we couldn't become vampire lords was because they were mythic and very powerful?
Yet you say the vestige is very strong and mythic and powerful. Which is what you are claiming by saying they can stand up alongside the dragonborn in terms of being a theat.
Essentially, my argument is that since the devs won't let us become vampire lords because they're really strong, then that must mean we as a vestige are more normal and not supposed to be very strong.
Unless that really means "One Vestige vampire lord is mythic, strong, and powerful. A million vestige vampire lords is a plague the likes of which Tamriel has never seen." Being an MMO does present some problems with how to handle theoretically rare stuff happening to a bunch of player characters, and ESO tries to thread that needle between handing out cool stuff and immersion.
That being said, there's not many ways to become a full-blooded Vampire Lord, and the ones currently alive might not want to annoy Molag Bal by turning us. Lamae Bal is pretty clear she's turning us because she hates his guts, whereas Harkon seems pretty loyal.
Though it does bring to mind an interesting thought: the Vestige is going to defeat Rada al-saran, but since Auriel's Bow and the Thu'um aren't necessary to use in Harkon's boss fquobest. Vestige could probably solo Harkon too. The only real advantage the Dragonborn has over the Vestige there is the ability to freeze time so they can chug healing potions.
You do know that there is only one vestige in lore and in the world, right? Only one player. The immersion there is already broken considering there are millions of vestiges running around.
And the new guy, Saran, seems to hate Molag Bal as well and he's a vampire lord. In fact he's going directly against him.0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »Thevampirenight wrote: »Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »Only reason I vote Harkon is because at least his fight in-game is challenging. I suspect that the Rada Al Saran fight is going to be a snooze fest that can be light-attacked to win, even though he's supposed to be this mythical being that fought a goddess. I guess if we beat him that means we're as strong as him, right? (So again **why cant we be vampire lords if that is the case**)
Basically, I will be disappointed if this year ends with us killing the guy. I feel like this isn't something we as players should be able to kill. It'd be like us 1v1ing molag bal without literally ascending with the power of another daedric prince.
Harkon at least doesn't have to face a vestige that is so powerful that even the last Dragonborn doesn't have the skill the vestige does. Vestige would have likely cut Harkon through like cheese and said too easy. Then move to the next threat.
But this thread isn't about how powerful the vestige is. Its about a fight between these two powerful vampire lords.
If you claim the vestige is so powerful then how come we can't become vampire lords and why can't a vestige 1v1 a dragon? As @TX12001rwb17_ESO said, Lord Harkon had to fight someone WAY worse. The literal dragon born.
And I'm saying that Harkon would win because of this fact. Saran literally gets killed by the vestige, who is waaaaay weaker than a dragon born. Lord Harkon would probably wipe the floor with an ESO character, it'd be like trying to solo the final boss of kyne's aegis by yourself. That is how the fight would go.
If Lord Harkon can stand up against the dragonborn, killing Saran (who gets killed by the vestige) should be no problem. That is my argument and probably the reason why Lord Harkon doesn't even consider Saran a threat and chose to stay hidden. He is nothing.
Because gameplay mechanics? Like why is this even a question? The vestige is about as powerful as the last dragonborn. Harkon is weaker than the other guy, harkon was never truly a challenge for the dragonborn
The Vestige is weaker than the Dohvakiin. You need groups for content in ESO, while the DB just yolo soloes everything. Especially noticeable in Sunspire, where Vestiges break easily trying to kill a single dragon. Meanwhile, DB has no problem killing a dragon. Twice. Before breakfast. While being overencumbered from picking a flower.
Wth are you even talking about? The vestige is one person, you are playing as an undaunted when you take on dungeons.
The vestige defeated molag bal with the help of the amulet, and mannimarco basically alone, that makes him extremely powerful, close or equal to the dragonborn.
You think someone who defeated mannimarco basically alone and molag bal needs the help of some puny adventurer to take on dungeons? Give me a break.
The dragonborn was not serious in his fight against Harkon, do you even realize how powerful Alduin is? Harkon does not compare, he's just a powerful vampire, nothing more, Alduin is a god basically.
Martin Septim did the same to Mehrunes Dagon, who is probably even more powerful than Molag Bal. And Martin was really not special, except for his OP voice actor.
Mehrunes is about on par with molag bal. Anyway you skipped over the fact that mannimarco is the strongest necromancer in lore, he literally became a god in another timeline.
The vestige defeated him.
You also quietly ignored the rest of the point and cherry picked what you wanted to respond to.
Anyway, base vestige is probably weaker than the dragonborn, but amulet empowered vestige is definitely stronger.
Mannimarco was defeated by the Vestige, Lyris, Sai and Abnur, all powerful warriors in their own way. And when Mannimarco wanted to reveal his full power, he got fist slapped by Molag Bal himself. So no, the Vestige did not 1v1 Manni and we don't know if the companions would have bested him without Bal's intervention.
The Alduin we see in Skyrim is not the real Alduin. He's corrupted and removed from his godly aspect. Alduin is specifically designed to be undefeatable and if we had faced this original Alduin, our timeline would have ended.
No the Alduin that was defeated in skyrim is just not at full power, the closer he gets to end time the stronger he becomes, that doesn't mean he's no longer a god or really strong. He's for sure much stronger than harkon.
He was still pretty confident that he could take down the world and eat the souls in Sovengarde, although he lost because of the dragonborn, that should put things into prospective.
Anyway, the vestige is really strong.
Yes, Alduin should be undefeatable near the end time.
Wasn't the whole reason why we couldn't become vampire lords was because they were mythic and very powerful?
Yet you say the vestige is very strong and mythic and powerful. Which is what you are claiming by saying they can stand up alongside the dragonborn in terms of being a theat.
Essentially, my argument is that since the devs won't let us become vampire lords because they're really strong, then that must mean we as a vestige are more normal and not supposed to be very strong.
Unless that really means "One Vestige vampire lord is mythic, strong, and powerful. A million vestige vampire lords is a plague the likes of which Tamriel has never seen." Being an MMO does present some problems with how to handle theoretically rare stuff happening to a bunch of player characters, and ESO tries to thread that needle between handing out cool stuff and immersion.
That being said, there's not many ways to become a full-blooded Vampire Lord, and the ones currently alive might not want to annoy Molag Bal by turning us. Lamae Bal is pretty clear she's turning us because she hates his guts, whereas Harkon seems pretty loyal.
Though it does bring to mind an interesting thought: the Vestige is going to defeat Rada al-saran, but since Auriel's Bow and the Thu'um aren't necessary to use in Harkon's boss fquobest. Vestige could probably solo Harkon too. The only real advantage the Dragonborn has over the Vestige there is the ability to freeze time so they can chug healing potions.
You do know that there is only one vestige in lore and in the world, right? Only one player. The immersion there is already broken considering there are millions of vestiges running around.
And the new guy, Saran, seems to hate Molag Bal as well and he's a vampire lord. In fact he's going directly against him.
Sure. There's only one vestige. But that doesn't mean the devs don't have to consider what we see on screen, which would be a ton of supposedly rare, mythic, and powerful vampire lords running around Belkarth waiting for trials or duking it out in Cyrodiil.
That's more my point. For all that the quests act like it's a single player game, the rest of the game has to contend with being massively multiplayer. Its one of the issues with ESO being an MMO that comes up semi-frequently whenever people ask for rare stuff like "I want to be a snow elf" or "I want to be a Dwemer" or "I want to use the Thu'um".
One could maybe be workable. Thousands of them running around in broad daylight doesn't make sense given the lore we know about. (Not that this stopped ZOS from doing the Psijic Order, so YMMV.)
So I guess I meant to say that I suspect the Devs reasoning is less about the strength of the single Vestige and more about not wanting to deal with the ramifications of having a million vampire lords running around. If they want to keep the Vampire Lord as rare and mythic, they've got to make sure players can't play them.
I mean, becoming a vampire Lord is not necessarily a matter of strength. Harkon became a Vampire Lord after a deal with Molag Bal and sacrificing a thousand innocents in his name. I'm pretty sure that, aside from burning her bridges with Molag Bal pretty decisively, my Vestige could kill that many innocents in his name if she wanted to. But, uh, ZOS might not be too interested in letting my Vestige do that.
Though I'm pretty sure that the simpler reason Rada al-saran isn't turning us into Vampire Lords is because we're ruining his plans and killing his family. Its not quite the same as Lord Harkon thinking he can get a strong minion out of this random adventurer who brought back his Elder Scroll daughter.2 -
TX12001rwb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭It is strange isn't it, we are not Vampire Lords simply because they are supposed to be Rare and OP and yet ZOS has added several Vampire Lord NPCs to the game to the point they seem quite common, I think the main issue here is the fact they simply added too many as NPCs, a solution would be to remove the enemy known as the ""Gray Host Vampire Lord" which would leave only named Vampire Lords in the game who will usually end up all dead.
No Vampire Lord should ever be an unnamed enemy even if they are only encountered as Group Boss enemies, A Vampire Lord is like a King among Vampires so that is like making an enemy who is a King and not giving him a name.
Not to mention them even being in ESO contradicts a line of dialogue in Dawnguard where Isran says "Powerful Vampires unlike anything we have ever seen before" so yeah what makes the Volkihar unlike anything they have seen before if Vampire Lords were running rampart in the second era? surely they would of had recordings of their existence, maybe it would of been better if they simply never included them.4 -
Vayln_Ninetails✭✭✭✭✭HarkonTX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »It is strange isn't it, we are not Vampire Lords simply because they are supposed to be Rare and OP and yet ZOS has added several Vampire Lord NPCs to the game to the point they seem quite common, I think the main issue here is the fact they simply added too many as NPCs, a solution would be to remove the enemy known as the ""Gray Host Vampire Lord" which would leave only named Vampire Lords in the game who will usually end up all dead.
No Vampire Lord should ever be an unnamed enemy even if they are only encountered as Group Boss enemies, A Vampire Lord is like a King among Vampires so that is like making an enemy who is a King and not giving him a name.
Not to mention them even being in ESO contradicts a line of dialogue in Dawnguard where Isran says "Powerful Vampires unlike anything we have ever seen before" so yeah what makes the Volkihar unlike anything they have seen before if Vampire Lords were running rampart in the second era? surely they would of had recordings of their existence, maybe it would of been better if they simply never included them.
This is what I don't like. I can handle the fact that vampire lords are supposed to be rare and OP and thus why we can't become them.
BUT
With vampire lord being kind of a common NPC in greymoor, I think it ruins this? IMO The only vampire lord in game should be the main guy, Rad-Saran. The wolf king should never have been turned into one and there shouldn't one at the end of the trial, one in a dungeon, and countless vampire lords coming from harrowstorms.
Me seeing all of these vampire lords is making me go "Man, why can't we become that?"1 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Rada al-SaranTX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »Thevampirenight wrote: »Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »Only reason I vote Harkon is because at least his fight in-game is challenging. I suspect that the Rada Al Saran fight is going to be a snooze fest that can be light-attacked to win, even though he's supposed to be this mythical being that fought a goddess. I guess if we beat him that means we're as strong as him, right? (So again **why cant we be vampire lords if that is the case**)
Basically, I will be disappointed if this year ends with us killing the guy. I feel like this isn't something we as players should be able to kill. It'd be like us 1v1ing molag bal without literally ascending with the power of another daedric prince.
Harkon at least doesn't have to face a vestige that is so powerful that even the last Dragonborn doesn't have the skill the vestige does. Vestige would have likely cut Harkon through like cheese and said too easy. Then move to the next threat.
But this thread isn't about how powerful the vestige is. Its about a fight between these two powerful vampire lords.
If you claim the vestige is so powerful then how come we can't become vampire lords and why can't a vestige 1v1 a dragon? As @TX12001rwb17_ESO said, Lord Harkon had to fight someone WAY worse. The literal dragon born.
And I'm saying that Harkon would win because of this fact. Saran literally gets killed by the vestige, who is waaaaay weaker than a dragon born. Lord Harkon would probably wipe the floor with an ESO character, it'd be like trying to solo the final boss of kyne's aegis by yourself. That is how the fight would go.
If Lord Harkon can stand up against the dragonborn, killing Saran (who gets killed by the vestige) should be no problem. That is my argument and probably the reason why Lord Harkon doesn't even consider Saran a threat and chose to stay hidden. He is nothing.
Because gameplay mechanics? Like why is this even a question? The vestige is about as powerful as the last dragonborn. Harkon is weaker than the other guy, harkon was never truly a challenge for the dragonborn
The Vestige is weaker than the Dohvakiin. You need groups for content in ESO, while the DB just yolo soloes everything. Especially noticeable in Sunspire, where Vestiges break easily trying to kill a single dragon. Meanwhile, DB has no problem killing a dragon. Twice. Before breakfast. While being overencumbered from picking a flower.
Wth are you even talking about? The vestige is one person, you are playing as an undaunted when you take on dungeons.
The vestige defeated molag bal with the help of the amulet, and mannimarco basically alone, that makes him extremely powerful, close or equal to the dragonborn.
You think someone who defeated mannimarco basically alone and molag bal needs the help of some puny adventurer to take on dungeons? Give me a break.
The dragonborn was not serious in his fight against Harkon, do you even realize how powerful Alduin is? Harkon does not compare, he's just a powerful vampire, nothing more, Alduin is a god basically.
Martin Septim did the same to Mehrunes Dagon, who is probably even more powerful than Molag Bal. And Martin was really not special, except for his OP voice actor.
Mehrunes is about on par with molag bal. Anyway you skipped over the fact that mannimarco is the strongest necromancer in lore, he literally became a god in another timeline.
The vestige defeated him.
You also quietly ignored the rest of the point and cherry picked what you wanted to respond to.
Anyway, base vestige is probably weaker than the dragonborn, but amulet empowered vestige is definitely stronger.
Mannimarco was defeated by the Vestige, Lyris, Sai and Abnur, all powerful warriors in their own way. And when Mannimarco wanted to reveal his full power, he got fist slapped by Molag Bal himself. So no, the Vestige did not 1v1 Manni and we don't know if the companions would have bested him without Bal's intervention.
The Alduin we see in Skyrim is not the real Alduin. He's corrupted and removed from his godly aspect. Alduin is specifically designed to be undefeatable and if we had faced this original Alduin, our timeline would have ended.
No the Alduin that was defeated in skyrim is just not at full power, the closer he gets to end time the stronger he becomes, that doesn't mean he's no longer a god or really strong. He's for sure much stronger than harkon.
He was still pretty confident that he could take down the world and eat the souls in Sovengarde, although he lost because of the dragonborn, that should put things into prospective.
Anyway, the vestige is really strong.
Yes, Alduin should be undefeatable near the end time.
Wasn't the whole reason why we couldn't become vampire lords was because they were mythic and very powerful?
Yet you say the vestige is very strong and mythic and powerful. Which is what you are claiming by saying they can stand up alongside the dragonborn in terms of being a theat.
Essentially, my argument is that since the devs won't let us become vampire lords because they're really strong, then that must mean we as a vestige are more normal and not supposed to be very strong.
There's literally an ultimate in the game that transforms you into a lord.
And even if there wasn't it doesn't matter.
The vestige is really strong.
The protagonist of oblivion could not transform into a vampire lord as far as i can remember, but he still became one of the strongest being in the lore, Vanus and mannimarco both are not lords in lore.
The point is irrelevant. Just because you do not have the possibility of becoming a vampire lord that doesn't diminish your potential power, there are so many examples of this.
By feats the dragonborn and the vestige both have great feats, the base dragonborn is probably stronger than the vestige, but the strongest vestige is more powerful than the dragonborn.
The Blood Scion is not a Vampire Lord, secondly the LDB is far more powerful going by some dialogue with Vastarie regarding mortal souls and their limitations, the LDB has a divine soul which would not have these limitations alloiwng their potential to be far higher then the Vestige who post-main quest is now limited by the soul of a mere mortal not to mention all the Dragons the LDB consumes, you know Miraak is probably more powerful then the Vestige by himself, he is probably more powerful then Rada-Al-Saran and Lord Harkon combined and the LDB devours him as well.
And no the whole Alduin not being at full power is just a fan theory, thirdly you mention Mannimarco, Vanus Galerion and the Champion of Cyrodiil, no the CoC is something far more powerful then a Vampire Lord, they become a Daedric Prince, Mannimarco was a Lich turned into a God and Vanus Galerion? he is a pushover who thinks he is mightier then he actually is, no idea why you even brought him into the discussion.
Mmm, you might be right actually, the dragonborn is quite possibly more powerful than the vestige, that's for sure if we do not consider the amulet of kings. I still would say that the vestige with the amulet is more powerful than the dragonborn, but that's not his or her power.
But alduin was definitely not at full power, that is not a fan theory, alduin gets stronger the closer he gets to end time, where he will eventually swallow the whole world.
Although it's undeniable that the vestige is super powerful. And i still stand by the fact that being a vampire lord doesn't necessarily put you into the top tier of power, afterall there are plenty of non vampire lord characters that are way more powerful that any lord we have met since now, champion of Cyrodill, Mannimarco etc...
Vanus was definitely not a pushover, although not as powerful as Mannimarco.Edited by JinMori on October 4, 2020 1:29PM0
https://youtu.be/QL_e4JiLwL0