VaranisArano wrote: »

Vaughndaunted wrote: »

I strongly disagree. I’m looking for the posting up in area and zone the sale of skins/achievements to be bannable. You should not be able to offer services of this nature. Some things should be left to skill and practice. Too much negative community reactions and blacklisting. Absolutely unacceptable.

We understand what you want. However...

A. ZOS doesn't care that carries aren't left up to skill and practice. In fact, I'll quote Gina from earlier, speaking on a thread that made much that same argument:
"If someone wants to pay a guild millions of gold to be taken through a dungeon or trial, that's up to them and doesn't break any rules."

B. "Too much negative community reactions" according to you. If this negativity is breaking the TOS or Code of Conduct, report it. ZOS can take action on toxic behavior. What they generally don't do is preemptively remove all activities that might lead to toxicity. I mean, if that were the case, we'd better remove the DLC dungeons from Groupfinder, pronto!

C. "Blacklisting". Are we talking the sort of blacklisting that happens when people break clearly stated guild rules? Because I've seen that happen a number of times when people decide they don't think the rules should apply, break the clearly stated guild rules, and then act shocked when they get booted from my trading or PVP guilds.
Or are we talking about something else?


You seem to be speaking directly from your own experiences. Problem is, most of us don't seem to share your experiences, so more evidence is needed to convince us that your solution is the only solution.

I don't see how penalizing selling carries is going to benefit trial guilds or the endgame community - on the contrary, it directly penalizes players who would buy carries or sell carries without ever engaging in toxic behavior or breaking the TOS. On the other hand, I can definitely see how reporting TOS-breaking toxicity or harassment about pricing carry sales would be of benefit - stamp out the toxicity without removing the activity.

I respect your statement... but I can only share my experience and speak up for those discriminated against. It’s not something that can be proven with heavy subjectivity. I would love to be more objective, but fact is my videos are measurements of how people want to make money from skins. I’ve gotten so much responses to the YouTube videos. Many of the higher end players are furious to my opinion that skin selling should be banned. It’s causing people to be toxic. That’s my opinion and should be respected.

Maybe the skins should just be made into tradable runeboxes, like the skins and costumes from PvP activities? That way trial tryhards would keep their fancy titles nobody outside their group cares about and their gold revenue while rpers would get the skins without the hassle of being herded through content.

Tsar_Gekkou wrote: »

Husan wrote: »

Coopersnow wrote: »

Husan wrote: »

Sorry, could someone explain how these carries work? I'm seeing the advertisements in almost all overland zones (mostly in Deshaan, Greenshade, Stormhaven, Craglorn, Western Skyrim), but I'm not sure how it works. Are you just supposed to hand them over your account and they will run the content on your account? That doesn't seem in accordance with the TOS, is it? Don't tell anyone, but I may or may not have skipped parts of it .

Also, what is the going price for those achievements? I'm asking for a friend ofcourse

Trial/ dungeon carries work like any normal trial. In this case you just pay gold to get in that "group" and guarantee to achive the clear/title/skin you want. Also gear carry runs are more often then skin/title carry runs. At the end of the trial 11 of the carriers trade the gear that dropped during the raid to you. There is no acc sharing involved or anything you just trade the before agreed amount of gold to the group and then you enter the trial together with them and get carried trough it.

How does that work for the no-death achievement? As far as I know you get teleported to boss encounters once they start so you can't really hang back and get carried by the other 11 people. You still need to know what to do and do it right not to die, and at that point why bother paying for a carry?

Depends on the content. For dungeon carries the buyer would just stay at the entrance, or do an account carry because it's cheaper. For trial no-deaths like Immortal Redeemer, Tick-Tock-tormentor, and Gryphon Heart, it has to be an account carry because all it takes is 1 death to have to reset and try again, and having the buyer in there is too risky since even high-end groups die in those fights.

Not exactly. In my experience the buyers usually know how to play and are somewhat familiar with the mechanics. The thing they lack is usually a team to play with. In the x3 carries that ive participated in, the carry itself was either in tank gear just following the group. Or in the case of like asylum or cloudrest they were actively taking oart in the encounter. Only paying for the presence of the other skilled individuals.

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

I don't think the runebox idea is very good. It's way too easy to be screwed by rng in this game, just look at the whole vMA inferno staff thing. It could easily take 100+ runs to get one, and if we presume that endgame community is as toxic as OP claims, it would only breed more toxicity and envy. Not to mention that not every trial team is even capable of farming new trials in a reasonably fast and efficient manner, so it also raises group requirements quite a bit (which is already a problem for a lot of people). And of course, depending on drop chance, it means that some people will never get rewards for their efforts. For example, I've cleared vAS hm years ago and never got the polymorph.
Imo rewarding players for clearing content is much better than any rng-based system. There's no need to make it less fair for everyone just because a small group of people wants to stick it to carry sellers... I really hate this "let's make it worse for everyone so people I dislike would suffer" mentality. It's just a game, after all, it's meant to be enjoyed. Why not just let people have fun if it doesn't harm anyone?

I meant dropping guaranteed runeboxes. Or making a merchant that sells those for x amount of points gathered, similar to Tel Var o AP shops.

Bless the carriers.

So much shiny goodies is worth my gold.

Why do I use them? I wouldn't need to if I didn't see this as the standard fair:

"LFM vSS only exp & show achievements"

Vaughndaunted wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Vaughndaunted wrote: »

I strongly disagree. I’m looking for the posting up in area and zone the sale of skins/achievements to be bannable. You should not be able to offer services of this nature. Some things should be left to skill and practice. Too much negative community reactions and blacklisting. Absolutely unacceptable.

We understand what you want. However...

A. ZOS doesn't care that carries aren't left up to skill and practice. In fact, I'll quote Gina from earlier, speaking on a thread that made much that same argument:
"If someone wants to pay a guild millions of gold to be taken through a dungeon or trial, that's up to them and doesn't break any rules."

B. "Too much negative community reactions" according to you. If this negativity is breaking the TOS or Code of Conduct, report it. ZOS can take action on toxic behavior. What they generally don't do is preemptively remove all activities that might lead to toxicity. I mean, if that were the case, we'd better remove the DLC dungeons from Groupfinder, pronto!

C. "Blacklisting". Are we talking the sort of blacklisting that happens when people break clearly stated guild rules? Because I've seen that happen a number of times when people decide they don't think the rules should apply, break the clearly stated guild rules, and then act shocked when they get booted from my trading or PVP guilds.
Or are we talking about something else?


You seem to be speaking directly from your own experiences. Problem is, most of us don't seem to share your experiences, so more evidence is needed to convince us that your solution is the only solution.

I don't see how penalizing selling carries is going to benefit trial guilds or the endgame community - on the contrary, it directly penalizes players who would buy carries or sell carries without ever engaging in toxic behavior or breaking the TOS. On the other hand, I can definitely see how reporting TOS-breaking toxicity or harassment about pricing carry sales would be of benefit - stamp out the toxicity without removing the activity.

I respect your statement... but I can only share my experience and speak up for those discriminated against. It’s not something that can be proven with heavy subjectivity. I would love to be more objective, but fact is my videos are measurements of how people want to make money from skins. I’ve gotten so much responses to the YouTube videos. Many of the higher end players are furious to my opinion that skin selling should be banned. It’s causing people to be toxic. That’s my opinion and should be respected.

Perhaps you'd like to share those YouTube videos? I feel like I'm pulling teeth to get anything that isn't purely subjective and anecdotal on which to base this request for changing policy. You've got the right to have whatever opinion you like, but I've got the right to ask for evidence if you expect me to be onboard with the changes you want.

Subjective experience is a weak base for changing policy, especially when plenty of other people have the opposite subjective experience as you.


And finally, I feel like I'm repeating myself, but people being toxic about your opinion is a problem with those people. They can be reported.
People being toxic about your opinion is not evidence that your opinion is correct. I have yet to see any evidence that penalizing selling carries would benefit the community. On the contrary, it obviously punishes players who are currently buying/selling carries without being in the least bit toxic.


So I will be direct.
The act of selling carries is not inherently toxic. Evidence: plenty of guilds sell caries without being toxic about pricing. They are able to sell carries in a polite, healthy manner that brings gold for their activities and lets the carried player buy something they desire. As Gina Bruno stated, this is all allowed under the TOS.

Your solution posits that it is acceptable, no, necessary, to punish players who are currently buying or selling carries without toxicity in accordance with the current TOS by banning all sales of carries because of a few players/guilds being toxic about pricing.

One purpose of the TOS is to set limits on inappropriate behavior. So why do you think its acceptable that players who are behaving according to the TOS should be banned from selling carries?

So many people jumped on the thread title and clearly didn’t take a moment to get the whole story from the first post.

Looks to me like a sequence of events is going on...

1/ The Carry Seller guilds/groups have settled on a standard set of prices for carries.

2/ Some group has come along and is taking their customers by strongly undercutting those standard prices.

3/ That new group/players are being ostracized/shunned/kicked from the guilds they were in... and are being blackballed by the community. For those who don’t understand what I mean, think of it like a good actor being blacklisted from Hollywood studios for the ‘crime’ of making a few movies outside of the existing Hollywood infrastructure.

4/ The op seems to think the whole practice of selling carries should be banned so that the end game community is no longer so roiled and turbulent.

I have a feeling OP recently got blacklisted by a top tier guild for undercutting prices while using their resources and because the endgame community is pretty small, word has got out and they aren't happy about it.

My feeling is also based on the exact same thing happening on PS4 NA recently.

Cryptical wrote: »

So many people jumped on the thread title and clearly didn’t take a moment to get the whole story from the first post.

Looks to me like a sequence of events is going on...

1/ The Carry Seller guilds/groups have settled on a standard set of prices for carries.

2/ Some group has come along and is taking their customers by strongly undercutting those standard prices.

3/ That new group/players are being ostracized/shunned/kicked from the guilds they were in... and are being blackballed by the community. For those who don’t understand what I mean, think of it like a good actor being blacklisted from Hollywood studios for the ‘crime’ of making a few movies outside of the existing Hollywood infrastructure.

4/ The op seems to think the whole practice of selling carries should be banned so that the end game community is no longer so roiled and turbulent.

This is one reason I asked for clarification about the blacklisting (and didn't get any).

I'm curious about whether these are separate groups being toxic to unrelated guilds, or whether it's a case of guildies breaking clearly laid out rules and then being shocked when they get kicked. I don't know, and thus far the OP hasn't elaborated.

I'm more familiar with the latter than I like. There were always people in my trading guild who didn't like our rule about no selling in guild chat and were just shocked that we would actually kick them if they didn't listen to the warning. But they ignored that the rule was there to benefit our guildies - sales in the guild store bring in guild tax, guildies can judge prices in context in guild store and might get a better price, and very few people really want sale spam in their guild chat.

In a similar way, I can see where guilds that sell carries have a price system to protect their guildies' time and effort. I'm not defending being toxic about protecting that system...but I can certainly see why players who deliberately circumvent that system might find themselves not welcome in the guilds who use that.

If that's not what's happening? Well, that's why I asked for more details. Its hard to tell what's really going on when the OP is so vague.

Just get good and complete the content with people. Dont have to buy anything then.