Selling Trial Skins should be against terms of service

Girl_Number8 · September 2020

아니 No, I completely disagree with the OP.

Experienced players should be allowed and encouraged to make in-game gold in ESO.

Selling skins, content carries, renting muh tanky services is one of the few things to reward endgame raid groups and players. It helps to cover players costs while giving other players an opportunity to get the cosmetic, or piece of gear they want. It is healthy for the game.

imo the OP sounds salty and seems to not be telling the whole story. Certainly not how they came to this dissatisfied state.

No guilds can make you sell anything at a set price, lol. It is not toxicity, it is just jelly fops.

Kiralyn2000 · September 2020

Eh, I've seen guilds selling carries for like 15 years, across multiple games. It's a perfectly acceptable way for Very Skilled Players to make some extra gold. It's a totally normal part of "MMO".

Sounds like the OP's issue is with running into guilds with *^%$ leadership. Which isn't something the game can really do much about. Just find a better guild.

El_Borracho · September 2020

I will never buy a skin run, nor will I sell one. I happen to think its pure vanity to buy a carry and waving the white flag to getting better. Akin to people who buy Arcteryx gear to rip the greens at their local mountain.

But who cares? Seriously. If someone wants to plunk down 3 million gold or more so they can run around in a vMOL skin, how does that affect me? Titles, skins, motifs, etc. Some people value them more than others. Its not wrong or right. I know I've earned my achievements. And if I see one of these players and they are dying on a vHRC run, that says more to me than the skin they are sporting.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · September 2020

Never paid for a skin, have sold a few over the years. As long as everyone keeps their hands on their own keyboard, no issue with me. Things sell for what people will pay for them. I do think they should figure out how to make it so you cant swap in for the last boss, but that is on ZOS.

Vaughndaunted · September 2020

@ZOS_GinaBruno I really think this should be against terms of service due to how toxic the community is revolving around skins being sold. People are blacklisted and limited by many guilds due to conformity of how much a skin carry or sale should be. It’s not conducive to ESO and a positive community. Guilds should allow anyone in and people shouldn’t be blacklisted. Selling skins should be as bannable as someone offering to buy or sell gold in Zone chat. Could we look into this please?

Kiralyn2000 · September 2020

Vaughndaunted wrote: »

Selling skins should be as bannable as someone offering to buy or sell gold in Zone chat.

Gold sellers in chat are banned because 1) they're third party companies selling in-game items (gold) for real-world $, and 2) the whole real-money-gold-selling thing is frequently linked with account hacking.

If "the community is toxic about it" were grounds to have game activities banned, half the game would have to be against the TOS.

VaranisArano · September 2020

Vaughndaunted wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno I really think this should be against terms of service due to how toxic the community is revolving around skins being sold. People are blacklisted and limited by many guilds due to conformity of how much a skin carry or sale should be. It’s not conducive to ESO and a positive community. Guilds should allow anyone in and people shouldn’t be blacklisted. Selling skins should be as bannable as someone offering to buy or sell gold in Zone chat. Could we look into this please?

Have you considered asking for blacklisting to be against the TOS instead? Or reporting toxic behavior by guilds? Since that appears to be the actual problem, not the selling of carries themselves.

josiahva · September 2020

OP, it sounds like your problem and toxicity all revolve around your elitist guilds and have little to nothing to do with paid carries. I have never bought a carry or sold one, so I have no skin in this game whatsoever, I couldn't care less whether people buy and sell carries(though the zone chat spam is marginally annoying) but who cares? If you want to buy or sell a carry for X amount and your guild is unhappy with it, sounds like you aren't a good fit for the guild.

Vaughndaunted · September 2020

Unfortunately guilds make money from selling skins... that’s the literal reason they’re so exclusive. Banning a major trials guild activity such as selling skins is a step towards reducing toxicity and blacklisting. There’s no way to regulate social conformity. But the behavior of selling skins or posting it in area chat is something that can be bannable. Skin run is a guild behavior. Get rid of skin sales and the game will be a little less toxic due to discriminatory guild practices.

mobicera · September 2020

This sounds like you have a personal problem with a small group of select individuals and are asking for ludicrous things in spite.
Not cool

trackdemon5512 · September 2020

For the sake of transparency OP has themselves been blacklisted from several guilds/discord forums for alleged toxicity to other players.

That said the value of a carry is purely an abstract amount. Some charge others for it (time and skill have perceived costs) while others do it for free out of generosity or friendship. As such the notion of a carry really comes down to interpersonal relationships as sunk costs for a talented group no longer increase for them and it’s what you mean to them. Do you consider them simply means to an end, tools to achieve a goal? Or are they friends who respect you, value your time equally, and ask that you join them over and over?

Dagoth_Rac · September 2020

The exact issue has still not been explained. Are you trying to sell a run for X gold and you cannot get together a group of 11 willing to do it for that amount? Are you trying to buy a run for X gold and you cannot find 11 people willing to run you through for that amount? Are you trying to join a guild, but they have very exacting standards because they often need to essentially 11-man content meant for 12 people?

There is a lot of talk of being "exclusionary" and "toxic" and "blacklisting", but no specifics of what exactly is going on.

Tsar_Gekkou · September 2020

Husan wrote: »

Coopersnow wrote: »

Husan wrote: »

Sorry, could someone explain how these carries work? I'm seeing the advertisements in almost all overland zones (mostly in Deshaan, Greenshade, Stormhaven, Craglorn, Western Skyrim), but I'm not sure how it works. Are you just supposed to hand them over your account and they will run the content on your account? That doesn't seem in accordance with the TOS, is it? Don't tell anyone, but I may or may not have skipped parts of it .

Also, what is the going price for those achievements? I'm asking for a friend ofcourse

Trial/ dungeon carries work like any normal trial. In this case you just pay gold to get in that "group" and guarantee to achive the clear/title/skin you want. Also gear carry runs are more often then skin/title carry runs. At the end of the trial 11 of the carriers trade the gear that dropped during the raid to you. There is no acc sharing involved or anything you just trade the before agreed amount of gold to the group and then you enter the trial together with them and get carried trough it.

How does that work for the no-death achievement? As far as I know you get teleported to boss encounters once they start so you can't really hang back and get carried by the other 11 people. You still need to know what to do and do it right not to die, and at that point why bother paying for a carry?

Depends on the content. For dungeon carries the buyer would just stay at the entrance, or do an account carry because it's cheaper. For trial no-deaths like Immortal Redeemer, Tick-Tock-tormentor, and Gryphon Heart, it has to be an account carry because all it takes is 1 death to have to reset and try again, and having the buyer in there is too risky since even high-end groups die in those fights.

scorpius2k1 · September 2020

Vaughndaunted wrote: »

The endgame trial community has become extremely toxic and unwelcoming of players who go against a social understanding for selling skins. Guilds have blacklisted and outcasted other players due to a belief that people should conform to a policy of selling skins at the same price.

This doesn’t benefit the community when too guilds insist you sell at market value otherwise they will ruin your reputation causing others to not want to play with them.

This is not a healthy way for the ESO community to prosper. Thoughts?

Hmm... I haven't taken this route myself but in saying that OP, would it be OK to suggest it's against TOS to just give other players gold to help them out, or buy something off of others such as a style page, etc? Should we make guild traders exceeding a certain price range for every single item against TOS too? Point is players should be able to spend their gold on what they want. I don't see any difference with players willing to pay someone to help carry them through content so they can have the cosmetic item they're after. Not sure what the big deal is. In fact, it seems a lot better than just buying something off a guild trader. Experiencing/learning content + getting the item your after seems a lot better -- even if you want to pay someone to help you do so.

I'm in agreement with others here on this. Reading in between the lines it really sounds like you/guildies had some sort of bad experience? Maybe even doing the same thing yourselves paying gold for a carry or lost a potential sale on a guild trader and here you are posting about it. I might be wrong but if that is the case, then venting your frustration here is even more misdirected. In the end it's absolutely OK to frown upon something if you or others don't like OP, but suggesting it should be against TOS to control what players choose to legitimately spend their own gold on is pretty ridiculous. Yours or some guild "rules" that are just made up out of thin air as some sort of standardization does not and should not dictate what goes on outside of said guild, and even suggesting it doesn't seem to be "a healthy way for the ESO community to prosper" at all. Imho, to suggest such a vice seems exponentially more toxic and damaging over anything the endgame trial experience could do.

Just my 2¢

dinokstrunz · September 2020

Being able to sell skin carries for in-game money is completely fine in my opinion. When it comes to toxicity that's pretty much just part and take of every online community. You'll always have toxic players it's just something you'll have to learn deal with.

robpr · September 2020

Make all skins a runebox drop like AS polymorph does with first being guaranteed, the skin carry would disappear almost completely. That would be sane solution to reduce such behaviours that are not healthy to the community. I was invited once as a helper for some minor KA skin carry and that group was a pure salt factory.
I'm not saying ban the things upfront, people can do with their gold whatever they want. But if the situation will go out of control, the game will become almost WoW where you will have to pay to do any vet content otherwise there will be no group willing to do so. Skin buyers usually don't stay long in the game anyway.

Radiance · September 2020

The first time I saw this being offered I inquired a price. It was a mil which I thought was obscene. I'd rather earn it on my own with another group that has yet to do so. I'm not saying it shouldn't be allowed but these type of carries certainly seem like a dirty business but that's just IMO so don't come @ me with your nonsense.

VaranisArano · September 2020

Vaughndaunted wrote: »

Unfortunately guilds make money from selling skins... that’s the literal reason they’re so exclusive. Banning a major trials guild activity such as selling skins is a step towards reducing toxicity and blacklisting. There’s no way to regulate social conformity. But the behavior of selling skins or posting it in area chat is something that can be bannable. Skin run is a guild behavior. Get rid of skin sales and the game will be a little less toxic due to discriminatory guild practices.

Incorrect, ZOS absolutely can regulate TOS-breaking instances of toxicity. If you have proof that such is happening, you turn it over to ZOS, especially if its at the level of harassment.

If you don't have proof of their toxic behavior, on the other hand, or feel that it doesn't reach the level of harassment, then I'm not sure how we're reaching the conclusion that selling carries is the root problem which, if removed, will solve all the guild problems.

Selling carries is not an inherently toxic activity and you have not shown it to be so.

That's like saying that some PVP guilds send toxic whispers, so we should ban guilds from PVPing. The problem is the TOS-breaking toxic whispers.

LadyNalcarya · September 2020

Vaughndaunted wrote: »

Unfortunately guilds make money from selling skins... that’s the literal reason they’re so exclusive. Banning a major trials guild activity such as selling skins is a step towards reducing toxicity and blacklisting. There’s no way to regulate social conformity. But the behavior of selling skins or posting it in area chat is something that can be bannable. Skin run is a guild behavior. Get rid of skin sales and the game will be a little less toxic due to discriminatory guild practices.

Sorry, but it doesn't make any sense. It is technically impossible to monopolize trial skins, anyone can make a trial group and get those skins, it just takes time and practice. You can even carry people for free after that, and no one would be able to do anything about it.
People who buy skins are typically not interested in obtaining skins through progression for one reason or another. Some don't have time, some are not interested in pve, some just don't want to put effort into improving their performance. Carry sellers just provide them an opportunity to get skins and loot that would otherwise be unobtainable. And regardless of how you get your skins, they have a price, and it's up to you if you want to "pay" in your time and effort or your gold. It's not like trial guilds are not recruiting anymore because of carries, and like I said, if you don't like existing guilds, you can always create your own. No one can take away your right to choose.

siddique · September 2020

If you are using players from a guild to initiate a carry and you are undercutting that guild's agreed upon carry prices (let's just say, 900k for a vashm) it is not the guild but you who is being dishonest and toxic. I would say it's perfectly in their right to remove/blacklist you.

As it is your right to sell carries for whatever amount you see fit or hand them for free, with another 11 people who agree with you.

Gaggin · September 2020

I sell carries in the hopes that one day ill have enough gold to buy one.

zergbase_ESO · September 2020

It isn't against ToS and majority will disagree with you. So yeah... I can care less for carries I am not one to pay for them but if someone is willing then they should be able to pay for such. Mods and ZoS confirmed this is perfectly fine to do.

SydneyGrey · September 2020

Husan wrote: »

Sorry, could someone explain how these carries work? I'm seeing the advertisements in almost all overland zones (mostly in Deshaan, Greenshade, Stormhaven, Craglorn, Western Skyrim), but I'm not sure how it works. Are you just supposed to hand them over your account and they will run the content on your account? That doesn't seem in accordance with the TOS, is it? Don't tell anyone, but I may or may not have skipped parts of it .

Also, what is the going price for those achievements? I'm asking for a friend ofcourse

NEVER hand your account over to someone, ever. That's a good way to get scammed big-time.

Vaughndaunted · September 2020

I strongly disagree. I’m looking for the posting up in area and zone the sale of skins/achievements to be bannable. You should not be able to offer services of this nature. Some things should be left to skill and practice. Too much negative community reactions and blacklisting. Absolutely unacceptable.

Jeremy · September 2020

Vaughndaunted wrote: »

The endgame trial community has become extremely toxic and unwelcoming of players who go against a social understanding for selling skins. Guilds have blacklisted and outcasted other players due to a belief that people should conform to a policy of selling skins at the same price.

This doesn’t benefit the community when too guilds insist you sell at market value otherwise they will ruin your reputation causing others to not want to play with them.

This is not a healthy way for the ESO community to prosper. Thoughts?

Sadly this is typical of MMO "endgame" guilds generally in my experience. They tend to be "toxic" and "unwelcoming" toward any player who doesn't fit the desired mold no matter what it's about. So I don't think there is anything the developers can reasonably do to stop it. They're always going to be bastions of strict conformity. It's been that way since the beginning of MMO time.

My best advice is for players to just avoid that entire scene. It's just a game, and it isn't worth the stress or the drama. Casual guilds that don't take things too seriously are just so much better to be involved in.

Luckylancer · September 2020

But trial skins are not for feeling of acomplishment. They are there for end game guilds to milk gold millioners. Also in TES lore godslayers stand in corner while 11 other poor servicemen kill dragons. I see nothing wrong.

LadyNalcarya · September 2020

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Husan wrote: »

Sorry, could someone explain how these carries work? I'm seeing the advertisements in almost all overland zones (mostly in Deshaan, Greenshade, Stormhaven, Craglorn, Western Skyrim), but I'm not sure how it works. Are you just supposed to hand them over your account and they will run the content on your account? That doesn't seem in accordance with the TOS, is it? Don't tell anyone, but I may or may not have skipped parts of it .

Also, what is the going price for those achievements? I'm asking for a friend ofcourse

NEVER hand your account over to someone, ever. That's a good way to get scammed big-time.

This. Account sharing is not just dangerous, it's also against TOS, so even if you don't get scammed, you can be banned.

Vaughndaunted wrote: »

I strongly disagree. I’m looking for the posting up in area and zone the sale of skins/achievements to be bannable. You should not be able to offer services of this nature. Some things should be left to skill and practice. Too much negative community reactions and blacklisting. Absolutely unacceptable.

Don't you think it's kinda petty to ban people for doing something you don't like? They're not harming anyone, chat spam can be annoying but you can just block spammers.
It also seems like you're not telling the full story here. No offence, but getting blacklisted from guilds usually takes more than just not wanting to participate in carries or whatever.

VaranisArano · September 2020

Vaughndaunted wrote: »

I strongly disagree. I’m looking for the posting up in area and zone the sale of skins/achievements to be bannable. You should not be able to offer services of this nature. Some things should be left to skill and practice. Too much negative community reactions and blacklisting. Absolutely unacceptable.

We understand what you want. However...

A. ZOS doesn't care that carries aren't left up to skill and practice. In fact, I'll quote Gina from earlier, speaking on a thread that made much that same argument:
"If someone wants to pay a guild millions of gold to be taken through a dungeon or trial, that's up to them and doesn't break any rules."

B. "Too much negative community reactions" according to you. If this negativity is breaking the TOS or Code of Conduct, report it. ZOS can take action on toxic behavior. What they generally don't do is preemptively remove all activities that might lead to toxicity. I mean, if that were the case, we'd better remove the DLC dungeons from Groupfinder, pronto!

C. "Blacklisting". Are we talking the sort of blacklisting that happens when people break clearly stated guild rules? Because I've seen that happen a number of times when people decide they don't think the rules should apply, break the clearly stated guild rules, and then act shocked when they get booted from my trading or PVP guilds.
Or are we talking about something else?

You seem to be speaking directly from your own experiences. Problem is, most of us don't seem to share your experiences, so more evidence is needed to convince us that your solution is the only solution.

I don't see how penalizing selling carries is going to benefit trial guilds or the endgame community - on the contrary, it directly penalizes players who would buy carries or sell carries without ever engaging in toxic behavior or breaking the TOS. On the other hand, I can definitely see how reporting TOS-breaking toxicity or harassment about pricing carry sales would be of benefit - stamp out the toxicity without removing the activity.

Tsar_Gekkou · September 2020

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Husan wrote: »

Sorry, could someone explain how these carries work? I'm seeing the advertisements in almost all overland zones (mostly in Deshaan, Greenshade, Stormhaven, Craglorn, Western Skyrim), but I'm not sure how it works. Are you just supposed to hand them over your account and they will run the content on your account? That doesn't seem in accordance with the TOS, is it? Don't tell anyone, but I may or may not have skipped parts of it .

Also, what is the going price for those achievements? I'm asking for a friend ofcourse

NEVER hand your account over to someone, ever. That's a good way to get scammed big-time.

You can still get scammed without handing over your account. Far more people will try to scam you out of quick gold than go through the process of getting your account. And if you want to buy the fancy no-death titles, letting someone else use your account is the only way. Just look at the tops of the leaderboards. The people with the highest scores tend to be the ones who are trustworthy enough to buy from. Don't buy from some no-name with no leaderboard scores because it tends to be a scammer.

Milo · September 2020

Tsar_Gekkou wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Husan wrote: »

Sorry, could someone explain how these carries work? I'm seeing the advertisements in almost all overland zones (mostly in Deshaan, Greenshade, Stormhaven, Craglorn, Western Skyrim), but I'm not sure how it works. Are you just supposed to hand them over your account and they will run the content on your account? That doesn't seem in accordance with the TOS, is it? Don't tell anyone, but I may or may not have skipped parts of it .

Also, what is the going price for those achievements? I'm asking for a friend ofcourse

NEVER hand your account over to someone, ever. That's a good way to get scammed big-time.

You can still get scammed without handing over your account. Far more people will try to scam you out of quick gold than go through the process of getting your account. And if you want to buy the fancy no-death titles, letting someone else use your account is the only way. Just look at the tops of the leaderboards. The people with the highest scores tend to be the ones who are trustworthy enough to buy from. Don't buy from some no-name with no leaderboard scores because it tends to be a scammer.

If accountsharing is involved everybody participating in that should be purged from the game. Buyer / seller / carries, just ban them Period.

But I don't see a problem with selling them with the buyer standing in a corner, sure runeboxes would probably be better, but it's okay the way it is now. As others have mentioned problem is not Carries it's the toxicity.