What's going on with the trial dummy?

Shantu · September 2020

Can we get the courtesy of an explanation of what's going on? Some mag toons are reporting a drop of 10k in parses compared to live. A guild member got a normal parse on a StamBlade by dropping all points out of piercing and removing Sharpened weapons. He said he read that now all the debuffs lower the dummy's resistances to 3212. I tend to believe him because he showed us a 94k parse on a StamBlade with only 3 points into Piercing and attacking the dummy from a flank position, which set his penetration to 3286. Meanwhile, I'm removing all points out of Spell Erosion on my MagSorc, PetTest is still showing 10K+ penetration and parses on live that run 84k are now about 73k. So maybe I'm over-penetrating now if debuffs are lowering the dummy's resistance way down to 3212? Doesn't make much sense to me because a mag toon would be over-penetrating with only the light armor Concentration passive (4884 pen).

I thought this was all from the new major and minor breach not being implemented in the dummy. But his 94k parse has me wondering what the heck is going on. Some kind of clarity would be nice.

Tannus15 · September 2020

The buffs are there, they are not getting reported properly.

mag dps seems broken however, and i'm not sure exactly what is going on. I've also lost 10k dps on my magsorc comparing live to PTS, and i've also seen 6k dps loss on the 3mil dummy.

UntilValhalla13 · September 2020

Maybe the nerf to ranged light attack damage is causing it to be wonky. Who knows why things break when they change things for no reason.

SaucyMcSauceface · September 2020

I have tested just light attack damage, and it is down considerably from live across a range of weapons. In my tests, that seems to account for about a 3k dps loss on its own.

Jodynn · September 2020

I parse 87k with a more complex build rather than 90k on MagDK, I assume this is because of the light attack changes.

Stamina is parsing higher than before because pen is lower globally so they can spec more else where and their light attacks deal less damage overall so got nerfed less overall.

Magicka Steal got nerfed so while you have more sustain from Major Intellect and Worm, you have less from Magicksteal but this balances out... at least with parse food.

I will say the buffs say like 95% or something from the trial dummy which remarks me as odd, shouldn't it be 100%?

Jodynn · September 2020

Basically, looking like stam meta this patch.

Shantu · September 2020

PenTest, a useful little addon that displays your penetration against enemies (including dummies), is displaying exactly a 6600 loss of spell penetration for all mag toons compared to what's seen on live. 6600 just happens to be the sum of the old Major and Minor Breach values (5280 + 1320). So it's like they've removed the old values and didn't apply the new (5948 and 2974), at least for spell pen. The values for stam toons appear to be missing major and minor breach also, but my parses are comparable to live. I would chalk this up as an addon that needs updating...if it weren't for a consistent loss of 10K DSP across ALL mag toons...which can't be something that was intended by design.

It would be nice to know what's going on, but we're likely to have to wait until the next PTS patch and hope somebody is paying attention.

kojou · September 2020

That is interesting... I was noticing that my 6 M dummy parse was pretty normal, but my trial dummy parse was lower. I thought it was just me missing DoT timings and needing to optimize my CP.

Jodynn · September 2020

To test something resistances just use the 2handed ult and looks at the change in your resistances.

Trial dummy gives you 3212.

Olupajmibanan · September 2020

Nvm

Dagoth_Rac · September 2020

Didn't they consolidate Breach and Fracture debuffs? Is it possible something got messed up on Iron Atro and it has physical resist debuff now but no spell resist debuff? Or is it being "double debuffed", where Breach is giving physical resist debuff now but Major Fracture is still applying to Iron Atro and giving even more physical resist debuff?

I feel like someone should test on a dummy other than Iron Atro, with a player tank applying debuffs and see if mag/stam disparity is still this large. Basically, is this a problem with the way that automatic debuffs apply to Iron Atro? Or is this an issue with the debuffs themselves?

ZOS_GinaBruno · September 2020

Hey everyone, the trial dummy is currently missing Minor Brittle and Major Vulnerability. We're going to get this fixed in a future PTS incremental.

lolo_01b16_ESO · September 2020

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Spell Erosion CP seems to be broken but can't find how. Below are results of my test, maybe you figure something out:

Berserker Rage on target Attro gives you 3212 spell resistance.

1) 0 Points in Spell Erosion, 0 Points in Concentration (LA pene pasive), Chokethorn light shoulder
Molten whip damage 5161
2) 0 Points in Spell Erosion, 1 Point in Concentration (LA pene pasive), Chokethorn light shoulder
Molten whip damage 5430
3) 0 Points in Spell Erosion, 2 Points in Concentration (LA pene pasive), Chokethorn light shoulder
Molten whip damage 5515
4) 0 Points in Spell Erosion, 2 Points in Concentration (LA pene pasive), Valkyn Skoria light shoulder
Molten whip damage 5515
5) 0 Points in Spell Erosion, 0 Points in Concentration (LA pene pasive), Valkyn Skoria light shoulder
Molten whip damage 5325
6) 100 Points in Spell Erosion, 0 Points in Concentration (LA pene pasive), Chokethorn light shoulder
Molten whip damage 6280
7) 100 Points in Spell Erosion, 2 Points in Concentration (LA pene pasive), Chokethorn light shoulder
Molten whip damage 6280
8) 100 Points in Spell Erosion, 0 Points in Concentration (LA pene pasive), Valkyn Skoria light shoulder
Molten whip damage 6280
9) 100 Points in Spell Erosion, 2 Points in Concentration (LA pene pasive), Valkyn Skoria light shoulder
Molten whip damage 6280
10)this one is interesting 72 Points in Spell Erosion (4866 penetration), 0 Points in Concentration (LA pene pasive), Chokethorn light shoulder
Molten whip damage 6204
I would expect Molten Whip doing 5515 in this case but for some reason 4866 Penetration from SE CP increases your damage more than 4884 from light armor passive
11) another interesting case 15 Points in Spell Erosion (1465 penetration), 0 Points in Concentration (LA pene pasive), Valkyn Skoria light shoulder
Molten whip damage 5507.
The damage for this case should have been close to 5325 but again, 1465 penetration from SE CP increases your damage more than 1487 penetration from set bonus.

Did you make sure to spend the same amount of blue cp in every try (e.g. on blessed or any other star that doesn't effect damage). Otherwise the magicka you get from additional cp will mess up your tests.

Olupajmibanan · September 2020

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Spell Erosion CP seems to be broken but can't find how. Below are results of my test, maybe you figure something out:

Berserker Rage on target Attro gives you 3212 spell resistance.

1) 0 Points in Spell Erosion, 0 Points in Concentration (LA pene pasive), Chokethorn light shoulder
Molten whip damage 5161
2) 0 Points in Spell Erosion, 1 Point in Concentration (LA pene pasive), Chokethorn light shoulder
Molten whip damage 5430
3) 0 Points in Spell Erosion, 2 Points in Concentration (LA pene pasive), Chokethorn light shoulder
Molten whip damage 5515
4) 0 Points in Spell Erosion, 2 Points in Concentration (LA pene pasive), Valkyn Skoria light shoulder
Molten whip damage 5515
5) 0 Points in Spell Erosion, 0 Points in Concentration (LA pene pasive), Valkyn Skoria light shoulder
Molten whip damage 5325
6) 100 Points in Spell Erosion, 0 Points in Concentration (LA pene pasive), Chokethorn light shoulder
Molten whip damage 6280
7) 100 Points in Spell Erosion, 2 Points in Concentration (LA pene pasive), Chokethorn light shoulder
Molten whip damage 6280
8) 100 Points in Spell Erosion, 0 Points in Concentration (LA pene pasive), Valkyn Skoria light shoulder
Molten whip damage 6280
9) 100 Points in Spell Erosion, 2 Points in Concentration (LA pene pasive), Valkyn Skoria light shoulder
Molten whip damage 6280
10)this one is interesting 72 Points in Spell Erosion (4866 penetration), 0 Points in Concentration (LA pene pasive), Chokethorn light shoulder
Molten whip damage 6204
I would expect Molten Whip doing 5515 in this case but for some reason 4866 Penetration from SE CP increases your damage more than 4884 from light armor passive
11) another interesting case 15 Points in Spell Erosion (1465 penetration), 0 Points in Concentration (LA pene pasive), Valkyn Skoria light shoulder
Molten whip damage 5507.
The damage for this case should have been close to 5325 but again, 1465 penetration from SE CP increases your damage more than 1487 penetration from set bonus.

Did you make sure to spend the same amount of blue cp in every try (e.g. on blessed or any other star that doesn't effect damage). Otherwise the magicka you get from additional cp will mess up your tests.

Oh, you are right, thanks for remind. Completely forgot about CP stat bonus. My bad.

YoshinJaa · September 2020

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone, the trial dummy is currently missing Minor Brittle and Major Vulnerability. We're going to get this fixed in a future PTS incremental.

I'm not on PTS at the moment, but can you please make sure set adjustments to Hircines/Worm, minor/major courage, potentially Powerful Assault and Morag Tong get applied to the dummy as well and that changes from U27 from any other "raid" buff/debuff are also updated to their current values?

Olupajmibanan · September 2020

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone, the trial dummy is currently missing Minor Brittle and Major Vulnerability. We're going to get this fixed in a future PTS incremental.

It is also missing Minor Courage. Are you aware of that or is this intended?

Jodynn · September 2020

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Spell Erosion CP seems to be broken but can't find how. Below are results of my test, maybe you figure something out:

Berserker Rage on target Attro gives you 3212 spell resistance.

1) 0 Points in Spell Erosion, 0 Points in Concentration (LA pene pasive), Chokethorn light shoulder
Molten whip damage 5161
2) 0 Points in Spell Erosion, 1 Point in Concentration (LA pene pasive), Chokethorn light shoulder
Molten whip damage 5430
3) 0 Points in Spell Erosion, 2 Points in Concentration (LA pene pasive), Chokethorn light shoulder
Molten whip damage 5515
4) 0 Points in Spell Erosion, 2 Points in Concentration (LA pene pasive), Valkyn Skoria light shoulder
Molten whip damage 5515
5) 0 Points in Spell Erosion, 0 Points in Concentration (LA pene pasive), Valkyn Skoria light shoulder
Molten whip damage 5325
6) 100 Points in Spell Erosion, 0 Points in Concentration (LA pene pasive), Chokethorn light shoulder
Molten whip damage 6280
7) 100 Points in Spell Erosion, 2 Points in Concentration (LA pene pasive), Chokethorn light shoulder
Molten whip damage 6280
8) 100 Points in Spell Erosion, 0 Points in Concentration (LA pene pasive), Valkyn Skoria light shoulder
Molten whip damage 6280
9) 100 Points in Spell Erosion, 2 Points in Concentration (LA pene pasive), Valkyn Skoria light shoulder
Molten whip damage 6280
10)this one is interesting 72 Points in Spell Erosion (4866 penetration), 0 Points in Concentration (LA pene pasive), Chokethorn light shoulder
Molten whip damage 6204
I would expect Molten Whip doing 5515 in this case but for some reason 4866 Penetration from SE CP increases your damage more than 4884 from light armor passive
11) another interesting case 15 Points in Spell Erosion (1465 penetration), 0 Points in Concentration (LA pene pasive), Valkyn Skoria light shoulder
Molten whip damage 5507.
The damage for this case should have been close to 5325 but again, 1465 penetration from SE CP increases your damage more than 1487 penetration from set bonus.

Put nothing into spell pen because the spell pen cap is 3212 you need to reach on the iron atro and the light armor passive gives you more than enough.

For why people are parsing lower I'm not sure, I parsed only 3k less (87k) which was seen from the light attack changes and minor berserk.

Once they add brittle and Vulnerability we'll all be parsing way higher

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone, the trial dummy is currently missing Minor Brittle and Major Vulnerability. We're going to get this fixed in a future PTS incremental.

Adding major vulnerability speaks to the intention to have a 100% uptime which says having at least 4 necromancers in group for bis groups as there is no way for one to have that uptime; however, for other class utilities one is sufficient.

SidraWillowsky · September 2020

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone, the trial dummy is currently missing Minor Brittle and Major Vulnerability. We're going to get this fixed in a future PTS incremental.

Thanks, Gina. Really good to know.

SeaUnicorn · September 2020

Wait trial dummy never had Major Vuln in the 1st place, that's why necros were parsing higher with colossus over any other ult. The issue that person is describing and disparity between stam and mag also it not related to major vuln, because it is universal for both types of damage.

Jodynn · September 2020

SeaUnicorn wrote: »

Wait trial dummy never had Major Vuln in the 1st place, that's why necros were parsing higher with colossus over any other ult. The issue that person is describing and disparity between stam and mag also it not related to major vuln, because it is universal for both types of damage.

I think by only addressing those two things she's confirming the pen is working as intended.

For stam doing more than mag it's just an understanding of how the combat system works.

Mag is more affected by light attack changes

Stam is more affected by increase in pen changes because Mag already has a lot of pen due to light armor passive, and stam has buffs to weapon damage and more into crit.

Therefore stam is outperforming their old damage and magicka has their damage lessened.

Personally I see a 3k reduction which makes perfect sense given the changes even if I disagree with a stam meta since I am also melee.

SeaUnicorn · September 2020

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

Personally I see a 3k reduction which makes perfect sense given the changes even if I disagree with a stam meta since I am also melee.

Right, DK, Necro, Magsorc, NB and Templar all have to maintain melee range to some extent to maximize damage in PVE. Seems to me like yet another PVE flyby nerf due to PVP rebalancing. And its not like Magicka was overperforming in PVP so much.

kojou · September 2020

So what penetration debuffs are applied to the Dummy? Major and Minor Breach should only account for 8922 penetration.

Is Infused Crusher and some level of Alkosh also applied?

Shantu · September 2020

kojou wrote: »

So what penetration debuffs are applied to the Dummy? Major and Minor Breach should only account for 8922 penetration.

Is Infused Crusher and some level of Alkosh also applied?

Yes. Typically when setting your CP's for the trial dummy, it would look something like this (* denotes pen provided from the dummy):

Magicka

Light Armor Concentration = 4884
Infused Crusher = 2741*
Major Breach = 5280*
Minor Breach = 1320*
Alkosh = 3010*
Spell Erosion 10 pts = 1003
Total debuff = 18238

Physical

Infused Crusher = 2741*
Major Fracture = 5280*
Minor Fracture = 1320*
Alkosh = 3010*
Sharpened 1h = 1376
Piercing 61 pts = 4476
Total debuff = 18203

DarkShadowFax · September 2020

For some reason I'm one of those people whose magdps magically parse 10k lower on PTS compared to live. Taking points out of spell erosion to put into something else or readding them doesn't seem to make a difference.
My stamden, however, seems to be completely fine. Its very strange.

Shantu · September 2020

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone, the trial dummy is currently missing Minor Brittle and Major Vulnerability. We're going to get this fixed in a future PTS incremental.

Thanks for the response. I'm not the expert here, but I think there is a bit more going on with the magicka side of this issue. I do hope someone takes a closer look at this or at least offers an explanation as to why mag toons are consistently seeing a 10k dps drop compared to live.

DarkShadowFax wrote: »

For some reason I'm one of those people whose magdps magically parse 10k lower on PTS compared to live. Taking points out of spell erosion to put into something else or readding them doesn't seem to make a difference.
My stamden, however, seems to be completely fine. Its very strange.

Same here. Every mag toon I have (MagDen, MagSorc, MagPlar, MagBlade, an MagDK) are parsing 10k lower than live. Stam toons seem to be ok.

Kurat · September 2020

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone, the trial dummy is currently missing Minor Brittle and Major Vulnerability. We're going to get this fixed in a future PTS incremental.

Trial dummy never had those buffs.

Tannus15 · September 2020

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone, the trial dummy is currently missing Minor Brittle and Major Vulnerability. We're going to get this fixed in a future PTS incremental.

Why does this feel like you know you're nerfing our dps and are hoping we won't notice because you're adding some extra buffs to the trial dummy?

Do you guys honestly think we're too stupid to notice?

Shantu · September 2020

Tannus15 wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone, the trial dummy is currently missing Minor Brittle and Major Vulnerability. We're going to get this fixed in a future PTS incremental.

Why does this feel like you know you're nerfing our dps and are hoping we won't notice because you're adding some extra buffs to the trial dummy?

Do you guys honestly think we're too stupid to notice?

Remember stam dps on the trial dummy appears to be fine. I think a 10k hammer to mag only dps is a bit too illogical to consider it might be by design. I know the dev team must be up to their necks in bugs at the moment as this iteration of the PTS seems to be more troublesome than most. I'm holding out that when someone takes a closer look at this they'll eventually find some oversight or unanticipated collateral effect of all the changes they are implementing. It's just the first week of the PTS. Hopefully they'll get this resolved.

Tannus15 · September 2020

Shantu wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone, the trial dummy is currently missing Minor Brittle and Major Vulnerability. We're going to get this fixed in a future PTS incremental.

Why does this feel like you know you're nerfing our dps and are hoping we won't notice because you're adding some extra buffs to the trial dummy?

Do you guys honestly think we're too stupid to notice?

Remember stam dps on the trial dummy appears to be fine. I think a 10k hammer to mag only dps is a bit too illogical to consider it might be by design. I know the dev team must be up to their necks in bugs at the moment as this iteration of the PTS seems to be more troublesome than most. I'm holding out that when someone takes a closer look at this they'll eventually find some oversight or unanticipated collateral effect of all the changes they are implementing. It's just the first week of the PTS. Hopefully they'll get this resolved.

I really hope you're right. I'm usually very pro ZoS and their dev decisions, but I'm honestly a bit lost on this one because for all their explanations of what they are doing, I don't understand WHY they are doing it and what the desired outcome is. It feels like change for changes sake and I don't understand what the gain is.

Tannus15 · September 2020

Could it be as simple as this change

Reduced the damage from all ranged Light and Medium Attacks by 10% to ensure they meet ranged damage standards. Heavy Attacks already meet these standards.

is bugged and if affecting all ranged abilities? Stam dps seems unaffected and I'm seeing mixed reports from MagDK's while the rest of the mag dps is screwed.

Shantu · September 2020

Yeah, it's hard to know what they're doing anymore...let alone why. I was able to squeeze enough dps (76k) out of my MagPlar tonight to pull within 6k of my usual (82k). But sustain seems wonky. I have a fixed rotation I have run a thousand times, no variation. One parse seems normal (I usually have no issue) while the next parse I run out of mag about 2/3 of the way through. My MagSorc feels totally borked. I was happy with the changes with Stonethorn as I now had zero issues with sustain using the new frag spammable and the change to the Rebate passive. Now I can't make it through a parse without several heavy attacks. Nor can I seem to get past a 73k parse when I consistently do 83-85k on live. I can only hope this isn't all by design.