Bow “gank” builds & supporting the group

mrwizardguy · August 2020

I really wanna get into nightblade bow builds. Currently sitting at 400cp. I’m an archery nut and it just appeals to me. However, I am hearing guildies advise:

“Bow gankers will provide no benefit to the group in PvP, and are only for playing solo.”

So i’d like to bring forth the discussion, of how one might support their group as a squishy, stealthed sniper glass cannon. Lets use Imperial city and cyrodiil for context.

I will clarify that I do not have a maxed out bow build, but I have played squishy stealth type classes in other MMO’s, rogue for instance in WoW. This is an educated guess based on simple strategy concepts.

And a little philosophy:
In any game, whether it be chess, video games, or sport, there are some universal strategy fundamentals that can be applied to achieve victory. Consider Sun Tzu’s “Art of War”.

1.) Use the element of surprise. Lets say you find a team mate engaged in a 1v1. He is struggling to finish off his opponent. You are cloaked, unseen, and his opponent has no idea you are lurking nearby. So, you utilize the element of surprise and unload your burst damage on the target, finishing the job.

2.) Be a scout for your team. Your eyes are always on your surroundings. While they wait to capture point, get up in that tower and cover them. Go cloaking on the perimeter. If you see a zerg coming, make the call out.

3.) Kill stragglers that stray from the zerg or are en route to regroup.

EDIT: I am talking about BOW/2H not bow/bow

Also, i’m not glued to the idea of being a “ganker”. But I would like to use a bow. And the status quo right now seems to be that stealth gank is the meta. If there is an alternative bow build that is not entirely reliant on stealth ganking please share

Goregrinder · August 2020

Ignore what they tell you, play what you want. Bow ganking is tons of fun.

Mobius0 · August 2020

You can easily hit max speed while stealthed. With a group people will have less chance to pick you out. I don't see the issue.

Taleof2Cities · August 2020

Though I agree with the above posts, stealth is way harder to maintain when supporting a group versus running solo.

Just something to consider.

erio · August 2020

mrwizardguy wrote: »

I really wanna get into nightblade bow builds. Currently sitting at 400cp. I’m an archery nut and it just appeals to me. However, I am hearing guildies advise:

“Bow gankers will provide no benefit to the group in PvP, and are only for playing solo.”

So i’d like to bring forth the discussion, of how one might support their group as a squishy, stealthed sniper glass cannon. Lets use Imperial city and cyrodiil for context.

I will clarify that I do not have a maxed out bow build, but I have played squishy stealth type classes in other MMO’s, rogue for instance in WoW. This is an educated guess based on simple strategy concepts.

And a little philosophy:
In any game, whether it be chess, video games, or sport, there are some universal strategy fundamentals that can be applied to achieve victory. Consider Sun Tzu’s “Art of War”.

1.) Use the element of surprise. Lets say you find a team mate engaged in a 1v1. He is struggling to finish off his opponent. You are cloaked, unseen, and his opponent has no idea you are lurking nearby. So, you utilize the element of surprise and unload your burst damage on the target, finishing the job.

2.) Be a scout for your team. Your eyes are always on your surroundings. While they wait to capture point, get up in that tower and cover them. Go cloaking on the perimeter. If you see a zerg coming, make the call out.

3.) Kill stragglers that stray from the zerg or are en route to regroup.

Ganking usually 9/10 times when fighting a decent player, it results in the ganker dying, aka your group rezzing you more. Group play is more about sticking together, not spreading out.
With the vd buffs youre looking like the guy who will start the chain if you get bombed.
I cannot tell you, first of all, how many times i've fought someone and a ganker tried to snipe me. I usually just go smack them once or twice and they crumple like tissue paper, and provide absolutely nothing to the fight. Youd be 100% more effective on a 2h/bow build that comes out of stealth than a bow build.
You can kill stragglers much easier on other nb builds too from my experiences.
People will also just flat out dislike you and your group, especially if they get the impression theyre having a 1v1 with your buddy.

Also in any fight above around 3-4 people youre gonna just get focused, or pulled out of stealth every .02 seconds by aoes, good luck sniping anyone in an actual fight too, since it has a cast time and youll end up hitting the wrong guys.

Mobius0 · August 2020

Just because you use a bow, and even snipe, doesn't make you a ganker. Of course you shouldn't join a party and just bring the same kit as you world if you were solo ganking.

I just returned, but back when I played many years ago, I was incredibly successful as a group based archer, yet could switch it up on a moments notice and become a stealth solo fighter. (Funny enough, several of us banded together and created a guild called "Guerilla Warfare" composed completely of stealthers of all classes and builds, doing stealth based group combat.).

Bows are fantastic in Cyrodiil because of their top tier range, which for ACTUALLY winning Cyrodiil objectives is crazy valuable. Stealth can be a useful tool in your kit as a group archer, but certainly it can't be used as if you were a solo commando or it won't be as advantageous (though I think it still could be if you really wanted to.)

Also, 9 out of 10 bow gankers are probably bad at it, so that is probably not a good metric to judge their potency by.

mrwizardguy · August 2020

erio wrote: »

mrwizardguy wrote: »

I really wanna get into nightblade bow builds. Currently sitting at 400cp. I’m an archery nut and it just appeals to me. However, I am hearing guildies advise:

“Bow gankers will provide no benefit to the group in PvP, and are only for playing solo.”

So i’d like to bring forth the discussion, of how one might support their group as a squishy, stealthed sniper glass cannon. Lets use Imperial city and cyrodiil for context.

I will clarify that I do not have a maxed out bow build, but I have played squishy stealth type classes in other MMO’s, rogue for instance in WoW. This is an educated guess based on simple strategy concepts.

And a little philosophy:
In any game, whether it be chess, video games, or sport, there are some universal strategy fundamentals that can be applied to achieve victory. Consider Sun Tzu’s “Art of War”.

1.) Use the element of surprise. Lets say you find a team mate engaged in a 1v1. He is struggling to finish off his opponent. You are cloaked, unseen, and his opponent has no idea you are lurking nearby. So, you utilize the element of surprise and unload your burst damage on the target, finishing the job.

2.) Be a scout for your team. Your eyes are always on your surroundings. While they wait to capture point, get up in that tower and cover them. Go cloaking on the perimeter. If you see a zerg coming, make the call out.

3.) Kill stragglers that stray from the zerg or are en route to regroup.

Ganking usually 9/10 times when fighting a decent player, it results in the ganker dying, aka your group rezzing you more. Group play is more about sticking together, not spreading out.
With the vd buffs youre looking like the guy who will start the chain if you get bombed.
I cannot tell you, first of all, how many times i've fought someone and a ganker tried to snipe me. I usually just go smack them once or twice and they crumple like tissue paper, and provide absolutely nothing to the fight. Youd be 100% more effective on a 2h/bow build that comes out of stealth than a bow build.
You can kill stragglers much easier on other nb builds too from my experiences.
People will also just flat out dislike you and your group, especially if they get the impression theyre having a 1v1 with your buddy.

Also in any fight above around 3-4 people youre gonna just get focused, or pulled out of stealth every .02 seconds by aoes, good luck sniping anyone in an actual fight too, since it has a cast time and youll end up hitting the wrong guys.

To clarify, I do mean bow/2h. I am NOT trying to go bow/bow.

mrwizardguy · August 2020

Mobius0 wrote: »

Just because you use a bow, and even snipe, doesn't make you a ganker. Of course you shouldn't join a party and just bring the same kit as you world if you were solo ganking.

I just returned, but back when I played many years ago, I was incredibly successful as a group based archer, yet could switch it up on a moments notice and become a stealth solo fighter. (Funny enough, several of us banded together and created a guild called "Guerilla Warfare" composed completely of stealthers of all classes and builds, doing stealth based group combat.).

Bows are fantastic in Cyrodiil because of their top tier range, which for ACTUALLY winning Cyrodiil objectives is crazy valuable. Stealth can be a useful tool in your kit as a group archer, but certainly it can't be used as if you were a solo commando or it won't be as advantageous (though I think it still could be if you really wanted to.)

Also, 9 out of 10 bow gankers are probably bad at it, so that is probably not a good metric to judge their potency by.

If there’s a bow centered build that will better support the group I would gladly take it over going the gank route.

Mobius0 · August 2020

mrwizardguy wrote: »

Mobius0 wrote: »

Just because you use a bow, and even snipe, doesn't make you a ganker. Of course you shouldn't join a party and just bring the same kit as you world if you were solo ganking.

I just returned, but back when I played many years ago, I was incredibly successful as a group based archer, yet could switch it up on a moments notice and become a stealth solo fighter. (Funny enough, several of us banded together and created a guild called "Guerilla Warfare" composed completely of stealthers of all classes and builds, doing stealth based group combat.).

Bows are fantastic in Cyrodiil because of their top tier range, which for ACTUALLY winning Cyrodiil objectives is crazy valuable. Stealth can be a useful tool in your kit as a group archer, but certainly it can't be used as if you were a solo commando or it won't be as advantageous (though I think it still could be if you really wanted to.)

Also, 9 out of 10 bow gankers are probably bad at it, so that is probably not a good metric to judge their potency by.

If there’s a bow centered build that will better support the group I would gladly take it over going the gank route.

Well, right now seems to be a great time for bow builds, with venomous smite and other proc sets with poison arrow.

Palidon · August 2020

Goregrinder wrote: »

Ignore what they tell you, play what you want. Bow ganking is tons of fun.

I have to agree with the above statement. Typically, a Bow Ganker is not well suited to play in a group. However, there is nothing that says he or she cannot shadow a group. I have played NightBlade gank builds for some time now. What I like to do is when I see a friendly group is shadow it. I have got countless kills doing that and I am helping out that group by taking out enemy players that group members have engaged and are in a fight with especially when they are trying to take a keep. On many occasions I have saved a friendly player from getting killed. Be prepared for the hate mail LOL from those players you have ambushed. They don't like dropping dead all of a sudden and can't figure out how they died until they check out their death recap. I just move back into the shadows looking for my next target of opportunity. I will see you in Cyrodiil. Well let me re phrase that. You might not see me but I will see you.

Paramundo · August 2020

Since apparently everyone hates nightblades, especially Bow-Builds, they are great for breaking up enemy groups or isolating individual players. Emerge from stealth, trigger opponents and drawing them away from the group. But this wont work for well organized groups.

Murky_Dregs · August 2020

Sniper can be fantastic for group support.

You need to be fast, and you need to be able to flank without being detected.

Your group needs to be disciplined with their callouts.

When group calls a target you need to time your shots for the moment the target is vulnerable to your full burst.

The whole point is to help the main melee folks bring down who they're focusing faster in order to provide offensive momentum...

All the while you're diligently doing recon around the fight and calling out/interdicting additional threats approaching the group.

Murky_Dregs · August 2020

Palidon wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Ignore what they tell you, play what you want. Bow ganking is tons of fun.

Be prepared for the hate mail LOL from those players you have ambushed. They don't like dropping dead all of a sudden and can't figure out how they died until they check out their death recap.

Lol, yes... just two days ago this jabs-plar was wrecking someone from my faction down below me inside the keep, I was up on wall, I had a rear quarter shot and I reversed the scenario immediately.

That's what I enjoy about gank....turning the tables.

erio · August 2020

mrwizardguy wrote: »

erio wrote: »

mrwizardguy wrote: »

I really wanna get into nightblade bow builds. Currently sitting at 400cp. I’m an archery nut and it just appeals to me. However, I am hearing guildies advise:

“Bow gankers will provide no benefit to the group in PvP, and are only for playing solo.”

So i’d like to bring forth the discussion, of how one might support their group as a squishy, stealthed sniper glass cannon. Lets use Imperial city and cyrodiil for context.

I will clarify that I do not have a maxed out bow build, but I have played squishy stealth type classes in other MMO’s, rogue for instance in WoW. This is an educated guess based on simple strategy concepts.

And a little philosophy:
In any game, whether it be chess, video games, or sport, there are some universal strategy fundamentals that can be applied to achieve victory. Consider Sun Tzu’s “Art of War”.

1.) Use the element of surprise. Lets say you find a team mate engaged in a 1v1. He is struggling to finish off his opponent. You are cloaked, unseen, and his opponent has no idea you are lurking nearby. So, you utilize the element of surprise and unload your burst damage on the target, finishing the job.

2.) Be a scout for your team. Your eyes are always on your surroundings. While they wait to capture point, get up in that tower and cover them. Go cloaking on the perimeter. If you see a zerg coming, make the call out.

3.) Kill stragglers that stray from the zerg or are en route to regroup.

Ganking usually 9/10 times when fighting a decent player, it results in the ganker dying, aka your group rezzing you more. Group play is more about sticking together, not spreading out.
With the vd buffs youre looking like the guy who will start the chain if you get bombed.
I cannot tell you, first of all, how many times i've fought someone and a ganker tried to snipe me. I usually just go smack them once or twice and they crumple like tissue paper, and provide absolutely nothing to the fight. Youd be 100% more effective on a 2h/bow build that comes out of stealth than a bow build.
You can kill stragglers much easier on other nb builds too from my experiences.
People will also just flat out dislike you and your group, especially if they get the impression theyre having a 1v1 with your buddy.

Also in any fight above around 3-4 people youre gonna just get focused, or pulled out of stealth every .02 seconds by aoes, good luck sniping anyone in an actual fight too, since it has a cast time and youll end up hitting the wrong guys.

To clarify, I do mean bow/2h. I am NOT trying to go bow/bow.

Well ganker = bow/bow in my book haha. Anyway i do feel like a non bow focused 2h/bow build is better

Haquor · August 2020

mrwizardguy wrote: »

I really wanna get into nightblade bow builds. Currently sitting at 400cp. I’m an archery nut and it just appeals to me. However, I am hearing guildies advise:

“Bow gankers will provide no benefit to the group in PvP, and are only for playing solo.”

So i’d like to bring forth the discussion, of how one might support their group as a squishy, stealthed sniper glass cannon. Lets use Imperial city and cyrodiil for context.

I will clarify that I do not have a maxed out bow build, but I have played squishy stealth type classes in other MMO’s, rogue for instance in WoW. This is an educated guess based on simple strategy concepts.

And a little philosophy:
In any game, whether it be chess, video games, or sport, there are some universal strategy fundamentals that can be applied to achieve victory. Consider Sun Tzu’s “Art of War”.

1.) Use the element of surprise. Lets say you find a team mate engaged in a 1v1. He is struggling to finish off his opponent. You are cloaked, unseen, and his opponent has no idea you are lurking nearby. So, you utilize the element of surprise and unload your burst damage on the target, finishing the job.

2.) Be a scout for your team. Your eyes are always on your surroundings. While they wait to capture point, get up in that tower and cover them. Go cloaking on the perimeter. If you see a zerg coming, make the call out.

3.) Kill stragglers that stray from the zerg or are en route to regroup.

EDIT: I am talking about BOW/2H not bow/bow

Also, i’m not glued to the idea of being a “ganker”. But I would like to use a bow. And the status quo right now seems to be that stealth gank is the meta. If there is an alternative bow build that is not entirely reliant on stealth ganking please share

bow gank builds can put an end to small scale and group pvp pretty quickly by dealing with priority targets... like helping to burst a healer or tanky dd.

People struggling to stay alive and focussed on people that are up in thier face can be deleted pretty quickly with a well placed snipe/la/shards combo.

Its actually really annoying tbh

Ezorus · September 2020

So I've been playing since morrowind and purely a bow/2h Nightblade pvper. Much like yourself I'm not going for a straight up gank build. I do focus on maxing out hits with zero resistances. My only defence is positioning, movement and cloak.

This was two nights ago, I've the gameplay recorded and plan to make a build video but the update happened today
https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/ezorus/screenshot/19265747

Sahidom · September 2020

From my experience its very difficult to pull off a gank build acting as group support without IRL voice chat; even then, the fluidity of the fight will leave you more out of stealth than in stealth, even with the vampire movement speed. It works better on a bait and ambush maneuver, against commonly met zergs to zerg fighting, even gank builds will have to watch out for other gank builds standing out of camera view with you launch your attack.

Dr_Ganknstein · September 2020

Its doable and it can be pretty fun. Some things you have to watch out for is standing next to your teammates while they are on flags because you are a VD bomb waiting to happen lol. Just stand off to the side unless they need you to help flip. Stay on the outside of a skirmish and pick off their healers or back line. Its funny when they turn around and half their group is already dead, tehehe.

Zeromaz · September 2020

Become the bow.... it makes become of you, you make become of it. Together you make become of each other. Breathe bow, see bow, eat bow, make love to bow.

pauld1_ESO · September 2020

I main a bow NB and I have been the key factor in several victories, because it is about playstyle rather than build.

I know I have made a huge difference in many victories by simple things such as finding the sieging team's FC and burning it, burning their siege while they are rotating through it, sniping backline siege, sniping that single dude running 4 oils on a keep defense destroying all your rams delaying you until help can get there, scouting, protecting the backline siege from other NBs, etc. I do all kinds of things to help the group.

But yea...I could roll a DPS Templar and spam jab focusing on just getting kills. Lots of utility there....

So there is a difference between a ganker and a bow NB. Anyone can be a ganker and run around solo picking off meaningless randoms, I see stamdens doing that all the time and not helping their side at all. That doesn't help you win anything. A bow stamblade however played the right way brings plenty to the fight.

Thraben · September 2020

mrwizardguy wrote: »

I really wanna get into nightblade bow builds. Currently sitting at 400cp. I’m an archery nut and it just appeals to me. However, I am hearing guildies advise:

“Bow gankers will provide no benefit to the group in PvP, and are only for playing solo.”

So i’d like to bring forth the discussion, of how one might support their group as a squishy, stealthed sniper glass cannon. Lets use Imperial city and cyrodiil for context.

I will clarify that I do not have a maxed out bow build, but I have played squishy stealth type classes in other MMO’s, rogue for instance in WoW. This is an educated guess based on simple strategy concepts.

And a little philosophy:
In any game, whether it be chess, video games, or sport, there are some universal strategy fundamentals that can be applied to achieve victory. Consider Sun Tzu’s “Art of War”.

Here are some general requirements to make a ganker less useless in a group of 6-12:

1) You should't VD your own group. If you are a glass canon that is more dangerous to your allies than to the opponents, better run alone. Please also consider that there are situations where you can't evade damage with mobility (like running though chokepoints).

So it comes down to having "MAJOR EVASION + X", with the X being in capital letters as the former isn't enough in the slightest.

2) You should fulfill your CORE ROLE against REAL opposition. That means: It's totally irrelevant if you can gank a 17k health bowtard, you have to be able to get down an enemy guild group member who's been pulled out of their group within 3 seconds, and whom you can expect to have 30k+ health (including bone shield, HoTs, etc.). Typically, you want to do the chaining as well, in order to reduce reaction time.

3) You need to help with healing and AoE damage as well. The latter is easy to do - just equip harmony as a jewelry trait. The former depends on your class.

In all those years of testing, StamBlade gankers were typically unable to consistently reach the burst DPS requirements, i.e. They failed at the very thing they intended to do. Even when they used full glass cannon equipment.
A Vampire StamWarden (who uses sneak instead of cloak), though, might actually be accepted in that role due to higher survivability, great healing, a better ranged DPS skill, better AoE damage, and most importantly a better pull skill.

Dr_Ganknstein · September 2020

No, taking out enemy bowtards is good because they will pick your group apart if left alone.

IAmIcehouse · September 2020

The playstyle is for solo play or small group play with other gank builds.

But from what you said in your post, it doesn't sound like you really want to play in a group. Just to be jn comms with a group near you. In which case, that's fine. You're not hurting your friends, but most of what you do will be irrelevant to their fight (obviously killing people helps, but from a tactical perspective).

mrwizardguy · September 2020

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

The playstyle is for solo play or small group play with other gank builds.

But from what you said in your post, it doesn't sound like you really want to play in a group. Just to be jn comms with a group near you. In which case, that's fine. You're not hurting your friends, but most of what you do will be irrelevant to their fight (obviously killing people helps, but from a tactical perspective).

We typically play in small groups and look for small even engagements... And then we get chased by a 25 man zerg where it wouldn’t even matter anyway what my build is. So I suppose the role i’m looking for is designated marksman. Always stalking and shadowing the group not too far away, securing kills on engaged targets below 60% health and squishies. I’m not going to try and go for the risky one shots. Rather, i’ll snipe the players already attacking my team, then vanish.

Also a fun fact: I main a healer on the same faction. So if things don’t go well I can swap. I just love, love archery.