New-ish returning player here. Is it just me or does the vampire rework feel very bad?

Vayln_Ninetails · September 2020

I played ESO a little a couple years ago just to try out vampire and I wasn't too big of a fan because of the lack of skills. However, I did like that the NPC vampires back then more or less shared skills with the player vampire. Thought it was an interesting concept. Letting players be like the monsters we face is pretty neat and isn't something that is in most other MMOs. I came back for Greymoor because I saw vampire was getting reworked and I was utterly shocked to see that vampire NPCs apparently have a whole different skill set than we do as players? I've seen vampires use cool bat summon attacks, various blood magic stuff, teleportation in a swarm of bats, they even have a cooler transformation than us. I was disappointed that the vampire lord we fight in the main story has a transformation animation exactly like the player one, except he turns into a vampire lord and we're stuck looking like a wingless chicken. We don't even get the cool looking armor Blood Knights get. Why can't one morph for the ultimate make us look all armored and wingless while the other provides us with wings? The tutorial for the vampire quest line says we are vampire lords are we not? The ability description even says we turn into a 'lord of night'.

Furthermore my complaints with the skill line don't end there. Naturally I ran as a necromancer because that class was new and not around during the time I played. I got the Bone Goliath ultimate and thought it was really cool. Then I got the blood scion ultimate and noticed that blood scion is basically a re-skin of this ult? It seems so weird of a design choice.

Also vampiric drain feels very useless as a skill? Why does Blood for Blood make it to where I can't do dungeons anymore? Why does Blood Mist feel very weak to use?

Would I say it's better than it used to be? For sure, I like the fact you can run and turn invis now and I enjoy the fact that there is a complete skill set. But I still don't get it, something doesn't feel right to me with this skill line. The skills seem very weak compared to my class skills and the weaknesses I get for being a vampire don't compare to the positives.

I'm also not a fan of the skill line being entirely melee focused when all I can use as a magicka user are staves. Why is the skill line melee focused with no gap closers too...? I play as a necromancer, a class that already doesn't have a gap closer. It feels so BAD having to run up to each enemy with a staff to use my claw attack and no way to go from enemy to enemy or hit with abilities from long range if I want to utilize all of vampire's skills.

I also don't like that Blood Frenzy exists as a skill. How come no other vampire in the entire game world kills themselves for power? It feels so weird and isn't a thing with ES vampires. I just can't get passed the fact that ZOS designed very well animated and useful skills for the NPCs yet decided to give the players a completely different spell list that isn't seen anywhere else in game. I don't like killing myself for a very minimal amount of power when there are SO many other vampire abilities we could have in its place.

I thought the whole point of these 'world' diseases (werewolf and vampire) was to make the player feel like the monster NPCs we fight in the game? That's how it should be. It's unique to ESO and it's very saddening to see them move away from that design.

I feel more like one of those harrowfiends or bloodfiends than an actual vampire.

UntilValhalla13 · September 2020

Mostly everyone has cured their vampire, except for maybe RPers and gankers. The feedback from players about the changes was largely ignored, so they just did whatever they wanted with it. Blood for blood was used to help sell greymoor, and then utterly gutted the next patch.

Vayln_Ninetails · September 2020

UntilValhalla13 wrote: »

Mostly everyone has cured their vampire, except for maybe RPers and gankers. The feedback from players about the changes was largely ignored, so they just did whatever they wanted with it. Blood for blood was used to help sell greymoor, and then utterly gutted the next patch.

Wait really? I didn't realize there was a ton of feedback about it. I thought I'd be in the minority for sure.

It's very sad to hear it's been ignored for the most part ):

Vevvev · September 2020

Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »

Wait really? I didn't realize there was a ton of feedback about it. I thought I'd be in the minority for sure.

It's very sad to hear it's been ignored for the most part ):

Doesn't take much to find the sea of threads already on this topic.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/544603/a-lot-of-players-cured-their-vampirism-due-to-vampire-themed-dlc/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/544780/anyone-else-think-zos-been-too-hard-with-vampire-penalty/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/533461/so-after-a-week-with-the-new-vampire-i-can-offer-the-following-feedback/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/532951/zos-pls-re-re-work-the-vampire/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/537679/devs-the-proposed-blood-for-blood-change-will-make-vampires-literally-unusable-in-group-content/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/537500/with-the-release-of-6-1-0-the-vampire-skill-line-will-be-an-abject-failure-of-game-design/p1

I can keep going but you get the idea. Funny thing is that everyone has their own concepts and ideas of what would make the skill line better, and you'll even see people agreeing with each other even though in a different thread they had a completely different idea. Reason being is most of these ideas end up being more vampiric and engaging than what ZOS gave us with this rework.

Vampire can be fixed but ZOS has shown time and time again they want vampire to be a nerf rather than a balanced kiss/curse buff/debuff. Even said it themselves on the patch notes.
"Vampire Updates
Vampires have received significant changes this update, with a focus on improving the entire experience as a Vampire. Revisions to parts of the Vampire quest, Justice System ramifications, and even improved Feeding visuals are just a few examples of these changes. The Vampire Skill Line has also been updated, adding 3 brand new Active Abilities while also revising the previous Active, Passive, and Ultimate skills that existed before. But be wary – these newfound powers come with even greater drawbacks. It is up to you to decide if the gift of Vampirism is worth the price…"
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/528633/pc-mac-patch-notes-v6-0-5-greymoor-update-26

They took Blood Frenzy on the Greymoor PTS and made it go from useful to almost a dead skill before it even went live. I honestly wouldn't have minded the 20% increased non-vampire costs if more vampire abilities were on par and as useful as Blood Frenzy was during that point on the PTS. Then after they made Blood Frenzy situationally "ok" they then cut the vampire cost decrease along with the non-vampire cost increase which made abilities like the Vampire ultimate incredibly expensive for what it gave you.

Fast forward to Stonethorn they drove the final nail in the vampire's coffin (puns, I know) with the "You can't be healed by others for 5 seconds" on Blood for Blood, and of course the overall nerf to Eviscerate. Vampire at this point is a nerf for pretty much every play style but ganking in PVP. Even then I question its overall usefulness as a ganking tool, but I'm not much of a ganker anyway so my word is kind of worthless when it comes to that aspect of PVP.

Lord-Otto · September 2020

Holy cow!
That you, as a returning player, hit the nail on the head with every complaint about the re-vamp, shows that you really understand what used to make vampires vampires and how much ZOS screwed up if even you can see it so clearly!
I raise my glass of... coke to you! Not blood, because I cured my vampirism, as did so many.

Xebov · September 2020

For years many players where vampires purely for the passives. The extra fire damage taken was unimportant for most encounters so there was no harm in being vampire and having it in some sort of meta state.

ZOS tried to reach 2 goals. They wanted to make the vampire more engaging by adding more skills, but they also wanted to turn him into a side grade you build for instead of being a meta must have.

When they first showed off the changes players where furious because the regeneration passive, the main reason ppl where vampire in the first place, was gone. They also didnt like the additional ability cost malus.

Over time ppl noticed that Blood for Blood was actually good as a practically free spamable since it used health. This however turned vampire back into being meta.

So ZOS changed the Vampire again to get him out of being meta again.

UntilValhalla13 wrote: »

Blood for blood was used to help sell greymoor, and then utterly gutted the next patch.

Thats nonsense since vampire is a base game change and greymoore was not needed to get it and im sure you know that.

Canned_Apples · September 2020

Zos has a track record of making things worse before making things worse ever since we got new combat devs.
The vampire changes are complete garbage filled with nothing but drawbacks. The only reason I still run stage one is because of mist form, even though it only works 75% of the time.

Dovakhan · September 2020

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Zos has a track record of making things worse before making things worse ever since we got new combat devs.
The vampire changes are complete garbage filled with nothing but drawbacks. The only reason I still run stage one is because of mist form, even though it only works 75% of the time.

I merely use the Dark Stalker passive on a vamp stage 1 for my speedy build. If it wasn't for that, I'd have cured as well.

And I prefer Phantasmal Escape to Mist Form tbh.

Vevvev · September 2020

Xebov wrote: »

When they first showed off the changes players where furious because the regeneration passive, the main reason ppl where vampire in the first place, was gone. They also didnt like the additional ability cost malus.

Only a couple of people were furious about that change but there were quite a few of us that didn't mind that passive getting tossed aside, and even wanted it to be!

The real issue why both parties ended up going in arms was not the loss of the recovery passive, but the doubling down ZOS did by making sustain even worse with the non-vampire ability cost debuff without fleshing out vampire enough to make it worthwhile. Had vampire had more than 5 skills and a ultimate to create a real build I can assure you the non-vampire cost increase wouldn't have been an issue for many of us.

Reason its such a big deal is because one spammable, a terrible heal, a situational AOE stun that just stuns, an expensive largely Defensive ultimate that halts all ult gain while active, a health cost damage toggle, and a 75% damage mitigation toggle that locks you out of doing anything does not constitute a full build. It lacks damage over time abilities, solid buffs/debuffs for offense and defense, effective self healing expected from a vampire, and group synergies found in other skill lines. Vampire really needs more skills to be worthy of that non-vampire cost increase, otherwise its just there to make your life miserable.

UntilValhalla13 · September 2020

Xebov wrote: »

For years many players where vampires purely for the passives. The extra fire damage taken was unimportant for most encounters so there was no harm in being vampire and having it in some sort of meta state.

ZOS tried to reach 2 goals. They wanted to make the vampire more engaging by adding more skills, but they also wanted to turn him into a side grade you build for instead of being a meta must have.

When they first showed off the changes players where furious because the regeneration passive, the main reason ppl where vampire in the first place, was gone. They also didnt like the additional ability cost malus.

Over time ppl noticed that Blood for Blood was actually good as a practically free spamable since it used health. This however turned vampire back into being meta.

So ZOS changed the Vampire again to get him out of being meta again.

UntilValhalla13 wrote: »

Blood for blood was used to help sell greymoor, and then utterly gutted the next patch.

Thats nonsense since vampire is a base game change and greymoore was not needed to get it and im sure you know that.

I guess that since bfb was so linked with thrassian, I did forget that it was a base game thing. XD

Xebov · September 2020

Vevvev wrote: »

Only a couple of people were furious about that change but there were quite a few of us that didn't mind that passive getting tossed aside, and even wanted it to be!

I saw quite alot players still waving the "This is the end flag" when the Patch initially hit.

Im also honest, im happy they gutted the Vampire and that they started to die out. Having to deal with incompetent players burning to death because they where vampire was annoying enought to last for a lifetime.

Vevvev · September 2020

Xebov wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Only a couple of people were furious about that change but there were quite a few of us that didn't mind that passive getting tossed aside, and even wanted it to be!

I saw quite alot players still waving the "This is the end flag" when the Patch initially hit.

Im also honest, im happy they gutted the Vampire and that they started to die out. Having to deal with incompetent players burning to death because they where vampire was annoying enought to last for a lifetime.

Its actually a bit worse now, mostly because you have to deal with people thinking vampire is good killing themselves with Blood Frenzy and Blood for Blood. It truly is a dark time...

Xebov · September 2020

Vevvev wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Only a couple of people were furious about that change but there were quite a few of us that didn't mind that passive getting tossed aside, and even wanted it to be!

I saw quite alot players still waving the "This is the end flag" when the Patch initially hit.

Im also honest, im happy they gutted the Vampire and that they started to die out. Having to deal with incompetent players burning to death because they where vampire was annoying enought to last for a lifetime.

Its actually a bit worse now, mostly because you have to deal with people thinking vampire is good killing themselves with Blood Frenzy and Blood for Blood. It truly is a dark time...

Its not a dark time, its as usual. Players play the game but are to lazy to adapt to changes.

Vevvev · September 2020

Xebov wrote: »

Its not a dark time, its as usual. Players play the game but are to lazy to adapt to changes.

Or they're completely incompetent.

As for adapting I personally kept trying to work the vampire skills into my kit every time I went out to do something. Every day I found a new use for them but then realized I had something better. Eventually Blood Frenzy got replaced with Elemental Drain, Eviscerate was dropped for Flame Lash/Force Pulse, Blood Scion was swapped for Magma Shell, Mesmerize was switched out for Fossilize/Burning Talons, Mistform was swapped with Race Against Time, and Vampiric Drain was always outclassed by Burning Embers.

Of course most of these abilities I listed are Dragonknight abilities, but I can continue on and go to my alts to compare their skills to what vampire has. If ZOS wants us to give up our standard abilities for these vampire ones they had better make them worth it, otherwise there is no point in having them there.

Also another thing that bugs me is that vampire gives weapon damage and max stamina but doesn't have any abilities that scale with physical stats. I play magicka classes so it doesn't effect me personally, but why include that stuff if you don't want to give stamina builds abilities they can work with?

Vayln_Ninetails · September 2020

Vevvev wrote: »

Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »

Wait really? I didn't realize there was a ton of feedback about it. I thought I'd be in the minority for sure.

It's very sad to hear it's been ignored for the most part ):

Doesn't take much to find the sea of threads already on this topic.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/544603/a-lot-of-players-cured-their-vampirism-due-to-vampire-themed-dlc/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/544780/anyone-else-think-zos-been-too-hard-with-vampire-penalty/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/533461/so-after-a-week-with-the-new-vampire-i-can-offer-the-following-feedback/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/532951/zos-pls-re-re-work-the-vampire/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/537679/devs-the-proposed-blood-for-blood-change-will-make-vampires-literally-unusable-in-group-content/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/537500/with-the-release-of-6-1-0-the-vampire-skill-line-will-be-an-abject-failure-of-game-design/p1

I can keep going but you get the idea. Funny thing is that everyone has their own concepts and ideas of what would make the skill line better, and you'll even see people agreeing with each other even though in a different thread they had a completely different idea. Reason being is most of these ideas end up being more vampiric and engaging than what ZOS gave us with this rework.

Vampire can be fixed but ZOS has shown time and time again they want vampire to be a nerf rather than a balanced kiss/curse buff/debuff. Even said it themselves on the patch notes.
"Vampire Updates
Vampires have received significant changes this update, with a focus on improving the entire experience as a Vampire. Revisions to parts of the Vampire quest, Justice System ramifications, and even improved Feeding visuals are just a few examples of these changes. The Vampire Skill Line has also been updated, adding 3 brand new Active Abilities while also revising the previous Active, Passive, and Ultimate skills that existed before. But be wary – these newfound powers come with even greater drawbacks. It is up to you to decide if the gift of Vampirism is worth the price…"
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/528633/pc-mac-patch-notes-v6-0-5-greymoor-update-26

They took Blood Frenzy on the Greymoor PTS and made it go from useful to almost a dead skill before it even went live. I honestly wouldn't have minded the 20% increased non-vampire costs if more vampire abilities were on par and as useful as Blood Frenzy was during that point on the PTS. Then after they made Blood Frenzy situationally "ok" they then cut the vampire cost decrease along with the non-vampire cost increase which made abilities like the Vampire ultimate incredibly expensive for what it gave you.

Fast forward to Stonethorn they drove the final nail in the vampire's coffin (puns, I know) with the "You can't be healed by others for 5 seconds" on Blood for Blood, and of course the overall nerf to Eviscerate. Vampire at this point is a nerf for pretty much every play style but ganking in PVP. Even then I question its overall usefulness as a ganking tool, but I'm not much of a ganker anyway so my word is kind of worthless when it comes to that aspect of PVP.

I noticed this soon after posting! Sorry, I'm new to the forums and decided to throw up a post before doing too much digging. Thank you for the sources though!

Gilvoth · September 2020

me my friends love the new changes.
sory to disapoint but some us love the changes.

Vayln_Ninetails · September 2020

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Holy cow!
That you, as a returning player, hit the nail on the head with every complaint about the re-vamp, shows that you really understand what used to make vampires vampires and how much ZOS screwed up if even you can see it so clearly!
I raise my glass of... coke to you! Not blood, because I cured my vampirism, as did so many.

thank you sir! The only reason I got into ES was because of vampires. Looks like the best vamp experience still rests in Modded Skyrim...

I'm surprised how many people seem to be confused with why people are upset though. From the threads I've read there seems to always be those few that try to defend the line. Or those that say we're just upset because of no regen. Take it from me as a vampire fan, nothing in this post even mentions regen.

I and many others are discontent with the DESIGN of the skills in the class. We want to play as vampires. Not bloodfiends.

newtinmpls · September 2020

The only thing I really liked about Vamps was the cool-factor of the Bat Swarm Ulti.

Now the skills are basically unusable and the ulti looks dorky.

Sad face

Vayln_Ninetails · September 2020

Xebov wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Only a couple of people were furious about that change but there were quite a few of us that didn't mind that passive getting tossed aside, and even wanted it to be!

I saw quite alot players still waving the "This is the end flag" when the Patch initially hit.

Im also honest, im happy they gutted the Vampire and that they started to die out. Having to deal with incompetent players burning to death because they where vampire was annoying enought to last for a lifetime.

Its actually a bit worse now, mostly because you have to deal with people thinking vampire is good killing themselves with Blood Frenzy and Blood for Blood. It truly is a dark time...

Its not a dark time, its as usual. Players play the game but are to lazy to adapt to changes.

It is hard to adapt to changes when they go against what a vampire is and over all is a very bad design.

Anentet · September 2020

I really only liked it to make my redguard skin paler, but long term not worth it since even at the lowest tier it lowers regen. I think I personally would have liked how it was originally a bit more. I also liked the passive running stealth but I truly didnt care about the rest of the tree.

Lord-Otto · September 2020

Xebov wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Only a couple of people were furious about that change but there were quite a few of us that didn't mind that passive getting tossed aside, and even wanted it to be!

I saw quite alot players still waving the "This is the end flag" when the Patch initially hit.

Im also honest, im happy they gutted the Vampire and that they started to die out. Having to deal with incompetent players burning to death because they where vampire was annoying enought to last for a lifetime.

Didn't you say fire wasn't an issue?

Lord-Otto · September 2020

Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Holy cow!
That you, as a returning player, hit the nail on the head with every complaint about the re-vamp, shows that you really understand what used to make vampires vampires and how much ZOS screwed up if even you can see it so clearly!
I raise my glass of... coke to you! Not blood, because I cured my vampirism, as did so many.

thank you sir! The only reason I got into ES was because of vampires. Looks like the best vamp experience still rests in Modded Skyrim...

I'm surprised how many people seem to be confused with why people are upset though. From the threads I've read there seems to always be those few that try to defend the line. Or those that say we're just upset because of no regen. Take it from me as a vampire fan, nothing in this post even mentions regen.

I and many others are discontent with the DESIGN of the skills in the class. We want to play as vampires. Not bloodfiends.

Exactly.
The ones defending the changes are often people with an innate hatred for vampires. Not always, but often. The ones that are not do not understand what Vevvev and you already said: We can live without the extra regen, but the increased cost is too much, especially for the bad new vampire skills. And then there's a very small group of people who like roleplaying in overland content. I would suggest Skyrim to those people.

Sugram22 · May 2021

i expected separate skill line with transforming like werewolf where u transform like WW and in Vamp form u have ur vamp lord skills and normal vamp skills just get a small overhaul and are separate thing even vamp in skyrim was like ESO werewolf and ww was also well made so similar to skyrim's ww, but that's disappointment

also most of vamp skills like drain are so weak (more dam is shown when u look the numbers but slow i kill single target waster without it) even the NB's life leach is way better, i always feel like no point in using them and even less being a Mage vamp when skills are weak souse, it was kind of same even before back in 2016 or 2017 when i last played it but cant tell is it slightly better or worse or same, only few vamp passives are useful

@Vayln_Ninetails
to add to the issue i see, i agree with u about the skills example the melee range skills and Blood Frenzy

JMadFour · May 2021

As one of the few who remains a Vampire on most of their characters, the main issue I see is that I look at the design and intent of the skills in the Vampire line, and I wonder what content I am supposed to have access to. Like, am I SUPPOSED to be able to do Group Content with these skills? It doesn't seem like it.

It seems like they had an idea of what they wanted a Vampire to be, but they half-assed the implementation.

The Blood for Blood change to where you cannot be healed after using it makes you basically a liability to every group if yu use it instead of Arterial Burst..

Blood Frenzy is just...it sucks. It's not fun. It has never been fun. It never will be fun. It is not an enjoyable skill to use. Killing yourself for a couple points of dps on a target dummy does not "check all the boxes for what it means to be a vampire." I don't even put points in to level it up anymore. It sucks. It's stupid. I hate the skill with a passion and I want it replaced with something useful. Like a gap closer. Or something else.

Vampiric Drain does absolutely pitiful damage, in fact I am not actually convinced that it does any damage at all tbh. and one of its morphs recovers STAMINA...why? What stamina character will actually use this skill??

Mesmerize is cool. I'd remove the "have to be facing you" requirement but otherwise cool. The Hypnosis morph doesn't seem to have a target cap which is nice. But it doesn't do anything else, no damage, no resource drain, nothing. Just stun.

Mist Form is the only fully formed(and by that, I mean it needs no changes at all) skill in the tree, tbh. There is a Morph clearly for PVP use, and one that is clearly for PVE.

Then you go and look at the Vampire Passives and....generally speaking they are all GREAT. It's like half the playstyle is complete, and half of it is not.

DarcyMardin · May 2021

I cured all my vampire alts after the changes. So did most people I know.

jssriot · May 2021

Yeah, it's pretty bad. I cured 4 of my 5 vamps when I came back after a long break. Kept one, a NB, and tried to make a build around the new vamp skills and passives that was comfortable and enjoyable to play just casually, and gave up after 2 months. The only thing I liked was Mesmerize but it's like to have that, everything else about being a vamp had to be bad, I guess, for "balance." I eventually deleted that toon and made a non-vamp nercomancer with that freed-up char slot.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe · May 2021

No, you're not alone. This skill line is an absolute sour joke, and not even decent for roleplaying purposes. I only remain a vampire out of pure stubbornness, to my own detriment, at stage one, as I always have been (I never had it for the regen passives). But I deeply hate what it's become.

LoneStar2911 · May 2021

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

No, you're not alone. This skill line is an absolute sour joke, and not even decent for roleplaying purposes. I only remain a vampire out of pure stubbornness, to my own detriment, at stage one, as I always have been (I never had it for the regen passives). But I deeply hate what it's become.

Same. I very much agree.

Starlight_Whisper · May 2021

Yes they don't understand that cons to vampire are to much now

JMadFour · May 2021

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

Yes they don't understand that cons to vampire are to much now

It’s not so much the “cons” per se as the majority of them are inconveniences at best that can be worked around.

It is that the Vampire rework seems half-finished and some of the active skill design decisions seem designed to make Vampires a liability in group content.

Sugram22 · May 2021

i only left my magica NB vamp just because it suits to him cured few other chars i had vamps hes only1 left