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Status of Healers in Cyrodiil with AoE Changes
Berchelous
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Most of the healers' skills are aoe based. How can we be effective with all the cooldowns? Should we respec our characters to tank and dd?
Some healing skills should not have cooldowns. If they will have then these skills should be buffed to be effective.
What do you think?
Some healing skills should not have cooldowns. If they will have then these skills should be buffed to be effective.
What do you think?
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dsalter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Berchelous wrote: »Most of the healers' skills are aoe based. How can we be effective with all the cooldowns? Should we respec our characters to tank and dd?
Some healing skills should not have cooldowns. If they will have then these skills should be buffed to be effective.
What do you think?
i know healing springs sucks most of the time now and im forced to run combat prayer with it just to stand a chance of healing people because i would normally dump 2 springs in one spot and spam rapid regen but now i cannot do thatPLEASE REPLY TO ME WITH @dsalter otherwise i'm likely to miss the reply if its not my own thread
EU - [Arch Mage Dave] Altmer Sorcerer
Fight back at the crates and boxes, together we can change things.0 -
Sgrug✭✭✭✭✭What blows me away is if spamming AOE heals is such a problem becuas of all the server calculation how is it animation canceling is not? Animation canceling increases the server load also due to more calculations.
Even funnier is animation canceling was never intended where as AOE's were so what does ZoS remove? AOE functionality instead of going after the very thing that was never intended (animation canceling) which also would cause lag per ZoS's supposition about spamming AoEs.
The changes and communications over the last 4 months for this game make no sense whatever and have the air of confusion and / or a hidden agenda.Edited by Sgrug on September 9, 2020 12:35PM20 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭What blows me away is if spamming AOE heals is such a problem becuas of all the server calculation how is it animation canceling is not? Animation canceling increases the server load also due to more calculations.
Even funnier is animation canceling was never intended where as AOE's were so what does ZoS remove? AOE functionality instead of going after the very thing that was never intended (animation canceling) which also would cause lag per ZoS's supposition about spamming AoEs.
The changes and communications over the last 4 months for this game make no sense whatever and have the air of confusion and / or a hidden agenda.
totally agreeonly a few years left to go now....
Current ideas for ESO improvement
Rungar's Mystical Emporium of Ideas junkyard3 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭What blows me away is if spamming AOE heals is such a problem becuas of all the server calculation how is it animation canceling is not? Animation canceling increases the server load also due to more calculations.
Even funnier is animation canceling was never intended where as AOE's were so what does ZoS remove? AOE functionality instead of going after the very thing that was never intended (animation canceling) which also would cause lag per ZoS's supposition about spamming AoEs.
The changes and communications over the last 4 months for this game make no sense whatever and have the air of confusion and / or a hidden agenda.
Animation canceling doesn't let you bypass the GCD
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dsalter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭StaticWave wrote: »What blows me away is if spamming AOE heals is such a problem becuas of all the server calculation how is it animation canceling is not? Animation canceling increases the server load also due to more calculations.
Even funnier is animation canceling was never intended where as AOE's were so what does ZoS remove? AOE functionality instead of going after the very thing that was never intended (animation canceling) which also would cause lag per ZoS's supposition about spamming AoEs.
The changes and communications over the last 4 months for this game make no sense whatever and have the air of confusion and / or a hidden agenda.
Animation canceling doesn't let you bypass the GCD
it speeds up the "weaving" which means more calculations faster.
faster means more ticks.
more ticks = strain.
do enough AC in a short time with several others doing the same and you will be adding hundreds or even thousands of ticks to the server in a short time.
it adds up.PLEASE REPLY TO ME WITH @dsalter otherwise i'm likely to miss the reply if its not my own thread
EU - [Arch Mage Dave] Altmer Sorcerer
Fight back at the crates and boxes, together we can change things.7 -
Varana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭What blows me away is if spamming AOE heals is such a problem becuas of all the server calculation how is it animation canceling is not? Animation canceling increases the server load also due to more calculations.
Even funnier is animation canceling was never intended where as AOE's were so what does ZoS remove? AOE functionality instead of going after the very thing that was never intended (animation canceling) which also would cause lag per ZoS's supposition about spamming AoEs.
insert deadhorse.gif
Funnily enough, neither is true.
Animation cancelling was put into the game deliberately, and is necessary for a whole lot of things with the way the combat system works.
That said, let's not derail this thread any longer.7 -
Anony_Mouse✭✭✭✭yeah so both my Warden and Templar healers are no obsolete in Cyro. (This week at least)>
Looks like Hiti's is the way forward to have SOME form of healing uptime.
Take a Ram siege; Oil is already OP in terms of damage output the last 2-3 patches. Now, you get OP oil, along with "nope you cannot cats 2 heals at the same time" = failed ram siege over and over again.
Cannot throw up a Siege Shield, and then a ground heal (pollen or ritual) - have to wait 3 sec. By which time, most the players in the ram, plus the ram itself have wiped.
This test cycle has killed dedicated healers. End of.7 -
Onefrkncrzypope✭✭✭✭✭
✭StaticWave wrote: »What blows me away is if spamming AOE heals is such a problem becuas of all the server calculation how is it animation canceling is not? Animation canceling increases the server load also due to more calculations.
Even funnier is animation canceling was never intended where as AOE's were so what does ZoS remove? AOE functionality instead of going after the very thing that was never intended (animation canceling) which also would cause lag per ZoS's supposition about spamming AoEs.
The changes and communications over the last 4 months for this game make no sense whatever and have the air of confusion and / or a hidden agenda.
Animation canceling doesn't let you bypass the GCD
it speeds up the "weaving" which means more calculations faster.
faster means more ticks.
more ticks = strain.
do enough AC in a short time with several others doing the same and you will be adding hundreds or even thousands of ticks to the server in a short time.
it adds up.
Nope same size packets are sent every time to the server regardless if the client side animation is cancelled or not. It's not one players skill. It's the calculations of the all the aoe you are standing in that is healing you, but buffing you, damaging you and debuffing you everything second.Edited by Onefrkncrzypope on September 9, 2020 1:58PM-Immortal Redeemer-
-Extinguisher of Flames-
-Gryphon Heart-
-Potato-
If I edited a post, it was for spelling. It is always because of spelling....1 -
vgabor✭✭✭✭✭
✭Anony_Mouse wrote: »yeah so both my Warden and Templar healers are no obsolete in Cyro. (This week at least)>
Looks like Hiti's is the way forward to have SOME form of healing uptime.
Take a Ram siege; Oil is already OP in terms of damage output the last 2-3 patches. Now, you get OP oil, along with "nope you cannot cats 2 heals at the same time" = failed ram siege over and over again.
Cannot throw up a Siege Shield, and then a ground heal (pollen or ritual) - have to wait 3 sec. By which time, most the players in the ram, plus the ram itself have wiped.
This test cycle has killed dedicated healers. End of.
winter respite + gossamer + bogdan, throw a siege shield on the ram, it will trigger winter respite which will trigger gossamer and bogdan.4 -
ThePedge✭✭✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »What blows me away is if spamming AOE heals is such a problem becuas of all the server calculation how is it animation canceling is not? Animation canceling increases the server load also due to more calculations.
Even funnier is animation canceling was never intended where as AOE's were so what does ZoS remove? AOE functionality instead of going after the very thing that was never intended (animation canceling) which also would cause lag per ZoS's supposition about spamming AoEs.
The changes and communications over the last 4 months for this game make no sense whatever and have the air of confusion and / or a hidden agenda.
Animation canceling doesn't let you bypass the GCD
it speeds up the "weaving" which means more calculations faster.
faster means more ticks.
more ticks = strain.
do enough AC in a short time with several others doing the same and you will be adding hundreds or even thousands of ticks to the server in a short time.
it adds up.
It doesn't let you bypass the Global Cooldown Edited by ThePedge on September 9, 2020 2:01PM3 -
lucky_Sage✭✭✭✭✭Dk burst heal doesn’t go on cd because you have to target one enemy from what I was toldDC PC NA
Magdk - main
Stamcro - alt
AD PS4 NA -retired (PC runs way better to play on console)
magdk
magblade
stamplar
magden
magsorc0 -
Anony_Mouse✭✭✭✭Anony_Mouse wrote: »yeah so both my Warden and Templar healers are no obsolete in Cyro. (This week at least)>
Looks like Hiti's is the way forward to have SOME form of healing uptime.
Take a Ram siege; Oil is already OP in terms of damage output the last 2-3 patches. Now, you get OP oil, along with "nope you cannot cats 2 heals at the same time" = failed ram siege over and over again.
Cannot throw up a Siege Shield, and then a ground heal (pollen or ritual) - have to wait 3 sec. By which time, most the players in the ram, plus the ram itself have wiped.
This test cycle has killed dedicated healers. End of.
winter respite + gossamer + bogdan, throw a siege shield on the ram, it will trigger winter respite which will trigger gossamer and bogdan.
thanks for the tip, I'll go rummage through storage for the sets
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Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭by my count animation cancelling can quadrupile or more a players effect on the server
light attacks before each skill which can crit and cause condition, enchants and procs.
duplicate this for the skill and add more depending on the skill.
blocking/bashing/barswap after each skill has its own requirements.
so rather than 1 skill per second we end up with a literal mash of required calculations per second that rivals any aoe. When automated it maximizes this interval so it all happens each second like clockwork.
now take a player who doesnt do that. Its basically just the skill and these wont be firing each second but more like every 1.3 seconds average since no animations are cut.
if it come down to 3 second cooldowns aoes or eliminate animation cancelling its an easy choice for me. I would get rid of the weaving, change some aoes to single target, increase some costs, use fatigue for some and make sure blocking is only useful for defense ( i.e spell/weapon dmg reductions when you block).only a few years left to go now....
Current ideas for ESO improvement
Rungar's Mystical Emporium of Ideas junkyard2 -
Sgrug✭✭✭✭✭What blows me away is if spamming AOE heals is such a problem becuas of all the server calculation how is it animation canceling is not? Animation canceling increases the server load also due to more calculations.
Even funnier is animation canceling was never intended where as AOE's were so what does ZoS remove? AOE functionality instead of going after the very thing that was never intended (animation canceling) which also would cause lag per ZoS's supposition about spamming AoEs.
insert deadhorse.gif
Funnily enough, neither is true.
Animation cancelling was put into the game deliberately, and is necessary for a whole lot of things with the way the combat system works.
That said, let's not derail this thread any longer.
No it was not and there are statements of Dev stating they were working on removing it, they eventually gave up though and changed their position to accepting it in the game.
AC was never intended but eventually the Dev's embraced it. I will also add AC has been suggested over the years for a reason related to server lag, this is not new and not my idea to begin with but it has just as much merit as the idea of spamming AoE's does.
I am not making a point t to remove AC, I am pointing out the extreme logical inconsistency in this testing and AoE GCDsEdited by Sgrug on September 9, 2020 2:46PM7 -
Sgrug✭✭✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »What blows me away is if spamming AOE heals is such a problem becuas of all the server calculation how is it animation canceling is not? Animation canceling increases the server load also due to more calculations.
Even funnier is animation canceling was never intended where as AOE's were so what does ZoS remove? AOE functionality instead of going after the very thing that was never intended (animation canceling) which also would cause lag per ZoS's supposition about spamming AoEs.
The changes and communications over the last 4 months for this game make no sense whatever and have the air of confusion and / or a hidden agenda.
Animation canceling doesn't let you bypass the GCD
it speeds up the "weaving" which means more calculations faster.
faster means more ticks.
more ticks = strain.
do enough AC in a short time with several others doing the same and you will be adding hundreds or even thousands of ticks to the server in a short time.
it adds up.
It doesn't let you bypass the Global Cooldown
I never said it did, I am pointing out that it also increases lag by adding to server calculations if one believes that is the core problem.2 -
o_0✭✭✭✭What blows me away is if spamming AOE heals is such a problem becuas of all the server calculation how is it animation canceling is not? Animation canceling increases the server load also due to more calculations.
Even funnier is animation canceling was never intended where as AOE's were so what does ZoS remove? AOE functionality instead of going after the very thing that was never intended (animation canceling) which also would cause lag per ZoS's supposition about spamming AoEs.
insert deadhorse.gif
Funnily enough, neither is true.
Animation cancelling was put into the game deliberately, and is necessary for a whole lot of things with the way the combat system works.
That said, let's not derail this thread any longer.
Speaking of beating a dead horse.
Anyone who has played since 2014 knows animation canceling was not intended from the beginning, but after a solution couldn’t be found it was “adopted” as weaving.
If devs are sooooo happy with it they wouldn’t still be looking for solutions to trivialize, or remove it such as they did earlier this year.
Not to mention the straight up nerf to block cancelling.Edited by o_0 on September 9, 2020 2:47PM8 -
dsalter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭StaticWave wrote: »What blows me away is if spamming AOE heals is such a problem becuas of all the server calculation how is it animation canceling is not? Animation canceling increases the server load also due to more calculations.
Even funnier is animation canceling was never intended where as AOE's were so what does ZoS remove? AOE functionality instead of going after the very thing that was never intended (animation canceling) which also would cause lag per ZoS's supposition about spamming AoEs.
The changes and communications over the last 4 months for this game make no sense whatever and have the air of confusion and / or a hidden agenda.
Animation canceling doesn't let you bypass the GCD
it speeds up the "weaving" which means more calculations faster.
faster means more ticks.
more ticks = strain.
do enough AC in a short time with several others doing the same and you will be adding hundreds or even thousands of ticks to the server in a short time.
it adds up.
It doesn't let you bypass the Global Cooldown
I never said it did, I am pointing out that it also increases lag by adding to server calculations if one believes that is the core problem.
neither did i mention it either, think he's trying to preserve AC without a counter argumentPLEASE REPLY TO ME WITH @dsalter otherwise i'm likely to miss the reply if its not my own thread
EU - [Arch Mage Dave] Altmer Sorcerer
Fight back at the crates and boxes, together we can change things.1 -
Sgrug✭✭✭✭✭Dr_Ganknstein wrote: »All I know is performance is way worse on cp enabled campaigns.
The population is typically denser too, correlation is not causation.2 -
Taleof2Cities✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I won't be bringing my healer back until this is over. It's just not worth it.
Looks like a few players in this thread are forgetting that this week is a test only.
If PvP objectives, AP gain, and kills are more important to you than helping ZOS improve the game ... it’s probably time to do a little introspection.0 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭What blows me away is if spamming AOE heals is such a problem becuas of all the server calculation how is it animation canceling is not? Animation canceling increases the server load also due to more calculations.
Even funnier is animation canceling was never intended where as AOE's were so what does ZoS remove? AOE functionality instead of going after the very thing that was never intended (animation canceling) which also would cause lag per ZoS's supposition about spamming AoEs.
The changes and communications over the last 4 months for this game make no sense whatever and have the air of confusion and / or a hidden agenda.
what do you mean? so a light attack and a spammable with maybe a block on the end is more calculation than an aoe heal?
Think about it:
light attack - hits target, looks at enemies current defence and applies the net damage. It does this again with the spammable and finally shortens the animation of the spammable with block(not a calculation) and will reduce any incoming damage during the duration of block, this would require the reverse of what was stated of the light attack and spammable.
Lets say an floor aoe, now every second it has to calculate everyone in the area and how much healing received and taken each player currently has and if they are eligible for said heal,with smart healing it also checks every player for who needs the heal the most.
Animation cancelling does not bypass the GCD so there is no way to cause more calculations than with any type of aoe.
I'm not sure what you think animation cancelling is, but it is literally cancelling an animation not a GCD.2 -
Sgrug✭✭✭✭✭Taleof2Cities wrote: »I won't be bringing my healer back until this is over. It's just not worth it.
Looks like a few players in this thread are forgetting that this week is a test only.
If PvP objectives, AP gain, and kills are more important to you than helping ZOS improve the game ... it’s probably time to do a little introspection.
If playing a game when it is not fun for you is more important than using your time where you are finding personal contentment....it’s probably time to do a little introspection.
I find it hard to criticize someone for preferring to use their time as they find appropriate, helping ZoS is just fine but so is a person choosing to use their entertainment time in other ways when it is not currently entertaining.6 -
The_Lex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Taleof2Cities wrote: »I won't be bringing my healer back until this is over. It's just not worth it.
Looks like a few players in this thread are forgetting that this week is a test only.
If PvP objectives, AP gain, and kills are more important to you than helping ZOS improve the game ... it’s probably time to do a little introspection.
Nice virtue signaling. And nice reading comprehension, by the way. I said that my HEALER won't be back UNTIL IT'S OVER (unless you made the faulty assumption that my healer was my only character?). If it's a week, so be it. My other toons will still be in Cyro. Pro tip: never let your urge to White Knight get in the way of your ability to critically read and engage a differing point of view.
It has nothing to do with PvP objectives, AP gains, and any other straw men you want to set up. It has to do with healers being seriously gimped, which is the point of the the OP.
Edited by The_Lex on September 9, 2020 3:58PM10 -
nukk3r✭✭✭✭✭
✭Taleof2Cities wrote: »I won't be bringing my healer back until this is over. It's just not worth it.
Looks like a few players in this thread are forgetting that this week is a test only.
If PvP objectives, AP gain, and kills are more important to you than helping ZOS improve the game ... it’s probably time to do a little introspection.
People pay for the service. One would expect a game that has been in development for 7 years and released 6 years ago to be a fully functional product. It would be fine if they declared the changes as inevitable and be done with it but they're testing stuff on live server.2 -
Sgrug✭✭✭✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »What blows me away is if spamming AOE heals is such a problem becuas of all the server calculation how is it animation canceling is not? Animation canceling increases the server load also due to more calculations.
Even funnier is animation canceling was never intended where as AOE's were so what does ZoS remove? AOE functionality instead of going after the very thing that was never intended (animation canceling) which also would cause lag per ZoS's supposition about spamming AoEs.
The changes and communications over the last 4 months for this game make no sense whatever and have the air of confusion and / or a hidden agenda.
what do you mean? so a light attack and a spammable with maybe a block on the end is more calculation than an aoe heal?
Think about it:
light attack - hits target, looks at enemies current defence and applies the net damage. It does this again with the spammable and finally shortens the animation of the spammable with block(not a calculation) and will reduce any incoming damage during the duration of block, this would require the reverse of what was stated of the light attack and spammable.
Lets say an floor aoe, now every second it has to calculate everyone in the area and how much healing received and taken each player currently has and if they are eligible for said heal,with smart healing it also checks every player for who needs the heal the most.
Animation cancelling does not bypass the GCD so there is no way to cause more calculations than with any type of aoe.
I'm not sure what you think animation cancelling is, but it is literally cancelling an animation not a GCD.
They are not adding a 3 second cool down because AoEs were bypassing a GCD, they added it to reduce the rate at which AoE's were calling for server calculations to be performed. Animation Canceling also increases the rate for server calculation, if AC did not no one would be increasing their DPS, you can not create more DPS without increasing the server calculations. Where do you think the added damage comes from? ( DPS is a rate of damage over time by the way!)
Point stands AC also would increase lag if AoE increase lag.
I am not calling for its removal, I am pointing out it also would contribute and ZoS is not addressing the issue consistent with their stated intent, it is called a logical inconsistency. Especially given AC was not intended as a game play mechanic when ESO first released.Edited by Sgrug on September 9, 2020 3:53PM3 -
Darkstorne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
What is this comment..? You can't make a snide joke about beating a dead horse, follow up with misinformation, and then essentially say "but now let's end this discussion before anyone can tell me how wrong I am."What blows me away is if spamming AOE heals is such a problem becuas of all the server calculation how is it animation canceling is not? Animation canceling increases the server load also due to more calculations.
Even funnier is animation canceling was never intended where as AOE's were so what does ZoS remove? AOE functionality instead of going after the very thing that was never intended (animation canceling) which also would cause lag per ZoS's supposition about spamming AoEs.
insert deadhorse.gif
Funnily enough, neither is true.
Animation cancelling was put into the game deliberately, and is necessary for a whole lot of things with the way the combat system works.
That said, let's not derail this thread any longer.
Animation cancelling was not intended to function the way it does. Animation cancelling can be very good for combat systems, allowing players to change their tactics on split second decisions. But that only works if you design a combat system that applies damage from attacks when an attack visually connects, and towards the end of animations. ESO devs "forgot" to do that part. Instead all damage is dealt immediately up front with instant damage attacks (like light attacks, and the majority of skills) regardless of animation context, so players quickly realized there's literally no downside to immediately cancelling a light attack into an instant cast skill, and immediately cancelling that into a block. Big burst damage, great defences, all at once, despite nothing visually connecting (the latter part somewhat addressed with recent block changes). LAs and skills have their own separate CD windows, but since you're essentially casting them together, you're massively boosting your DPS by avoiding a window. It's essentially double the attack calculations per second, with block damage mitigation on top.
It's highly likely this is the reason they've started adding cast times to many abilities, to create a fake sort of wind up to attack animations, forcing players to commit to an attack if they want to see the damage from it, but still allowing you to cancel the attack if you want. It allows other players to read the attack wind up and react to it (block, dodge, interrupt) the way a good animation cancelling system should work.
tl;dr - Animation cancelling is a good thing to have, but not when it's implemented in such a broken way as ESO does.8 -
d3adpain✭✭✭by far the best thing, no more people getting saved for mistakes of not keeps hots or stupid charges
people should learn to play with their brain0 -
SeaGtGruff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Animation cancelling was put into the game deliberately
Not according to a quote that someone posted in a thread a year or two ago. The way I read that quote, animation cancelling was an unexpected outcome which was immediately embraced by the devs once they realized what they'd inadvertently done. The fact that they accepted and embraced it after the fact does not magically turn back time and make the original accident a "deliberately on purpose" act.I've fought mudcrabs more fearsome than me!1