Rapids at rank 5 creates a Catch-22

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO · September 2020

I just don't get the arguments "just do a few BGs" or "it's only a few hours of PvP, don't whine". Any amount of PvP is more than I want to do in the game. I tried it, and I didn't like it one bit. It's like telling a figure skater that they just need to go play some ice hockey, it's more or less the same thing, you just need to completely change your gear and learn to do things very differently, but you're still on ice skates, and you're still in the ice rink, so you should be able to enjoy it, right? Just get your butt in there and you'll learn to like it.

Sorry, no. I don't like playing against others in ESO. I like playing with others. Completely different things.

And yes, this argument works the other way around as well: I don't think PvP players should have to participate in PvE if they don't like it. The two game modes are different enough for people to love one but hate the other, and forcing them to do both is only going to chase players away.

WeerW3ir · September 2020

Omg like you cannot feed your horse.... 💩

agegarton · September 2020

slasb16_ESO wrote: »

Rapids at Assault rank 1 had been in place since beta. The reason it was put there was because Cyrodiil is a MASSIVE zone and you needed it to get anywhere.

The Catch-22 is this. To get Rapids I need to get to rank 5, but to get to rank 5 I need to get to the fight and I can't get there in a timely manner without rapids. In the <50 campaign at level 12, Cyrodiil is all but unplayable.

Completely right - I originally thought it wouldn't be a huge problem, but was running a new char this weekend and can't believe the difference it makes. My mount speed is low (it's a new character), and I now have to get to Level 5 to get any kind of boost. If you play the <L50 campaign, everyone is in the same boat (on the same horse.....?) so you can't easily pick up a buff from a group member. Playing any >50 campaign if your character is <L50 is no fun at all.

If I were cynical I'd say it was a change entirely designed to make people buy mount speed upgrades from the Crown Store.

WeerW3ir · September 2020

Just let it go already....

Tsar_Gekkou · September 2020

We're gonna be seeing a lot more people go afk in bgs to farm rapids now.

scorpius2k1 · September 2020

My question is this:

Why did they need to SWAP Vigor & Rapids in the first place? Couldn't they have just put Vigor down on a lower rank so people have access to the heal (the supposed reason), and just leave Rapids just as it was? Seems that would have worked just fine.

Tbh, I don't think there was ANY beneficial reason to the playerbase in doing so...I really think it's just another slow & shady burn to monetizing yet another skill line in the Crown Store as P2A under the guise of "so players have access to a heal"...just smells like a load of lying BS to me which I've come to expect from Zenimax/Bethedsa. They know P2W is a big no-no so of course they are going to keep chipping away at the grey area of P2A. Not hard to see why the game suffers so much when things like that are such a big focus instead of a functioning product after 6 years. This game is in a complete backwards spin chasing it's tail.

Quantity over quality.
Turning players into payers.

/r

Defilted · September 2020

I run in stealth from keep to keep all the time with no use of rapids and get right into fights no issue. I do not agree that rapids is needed to get there on time.

josiahva · September 2020

This whole topic is a gross exaggeration [snip]....if you want rapids, PvP until you get it...just like you used to do with Vigor or Barrier or Warhorn...its honestly not a big deal. I personally think stamina players have access to a better heal when they start PvP puts them on more even footing with magicka players.....as to getting to fights in time...its Cyro...getting to fights on time is an issue even WITH rapids.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

WeerW3ir · September 2020

josiahva wrote: »

This whole topic is a gross exaggeration and essentially whining for no reason....if you want rapids, PvP until you get it...just like you used to do with Vigor or Barrier or Warhorn...its honestly not a big deal. I personally think stamina players have access to a better heal when they start PvP puts them on more even footing with magicka players.....as to getting to fights in time...its Cyro...getting to fights on time is an issue even WITH rapids.

arent there was also the same amount of crying for getting the vigor faster? be happy. you guys got vigor sooner now. you made the deal. THERE IS NO DARTH VADER TO ALTER THE DEAL!!!

Sgrug · September 2020

Tsar_Gekkou wrote: »

We're gonna be seeing a lot more people go afk in bgs to farm rapids now.

Some may even join BGs and AFK out of spite....

This change is bad, was managed poorly and the reason for it is being kept from us. Again there was no good reason to take rapids away from those who had it OR not make it level 3 to get OR swap it into the support line.

The idea it took 6 years to realize this was a PvP skill only and just now it is finally getting fixed (take note it was not made a PvP skill only, it was just made harder to get) does not hold water.

This could have easily been made a PvP skill only a long time ago, such statements are more akin to throwing something at a wall and seeing what sticks as opposed to being thought out actual reasons.

karthrag_inak · September 2020

This one complained somewhat about rapids being moved - primarily the logic that a healing skill was in assault and not support. Would have been better to move vigor to first spot of support than this solution.

This one has 18 characters. When this fiasco happened, only 5 of them were higher than lvl 5 in assault. Now, however, all but 3 are. Since the change, this one leveled up characters via battlegrounds. Is easy and fun - much more exciting than cyrodiil usually is, and with quicker payouts.

karthrag_inak · September 2020

Sgrug wrote: »

Tsar_Gekkou wrote: »

We're gonna be seeing a lot more people go afk in bgs to farm rapids now.

Some may even join BGs and AFK out of spite....

This one has done perhaps 50 bgs since change has happened, and he has not seen anyone go afk.

Sgrug · September 2020

karthrag_inak wrote: »

This one complained somewhat about rapids being moved - primarily the logic that a healing skill was in assault and not support. Would have been better to move vigor to first spot of support than this solution.

This one has 18 characters. When this fiasco happened, only 5 of them were higher than lvl 5 in assault. Now, however, all but 3 are. Since the change, this one leveled up characters via battlegrounds. Is easy and fun - much more exciting than cyrodiil usually is, and with quicker payouts.

Your post is what we call confirmation bias, you already do BGs so are inclined to like PvP. That you found it fun does not relate to many others who prefer to not PvP and find it onerous.

I have done 2 characters since the change and I found it neither easy nor fun, both took around 5-6 hours to go from 2 to 5. To be frank it is causing quite a bit of resentment in me that I had this for 6 years and it was taken away only to have to go back and do more to get it back.

This change is no different than making everyone level 50 no CP then telling everyone just earn your CP back only this time it will take even more experience to do so, the precedent is deeply flawed that has been established. More bad things will come of this from ZoS. Nothing now stops the Devs from just taking away things and making them re-earned as a game advancement mechanism and monetization system

Dark_Lord_Kuro · September 2020

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

slasb16_ESO wrote: »

Rapids at Assault rank 1 had been in place since beta. The reason it was put there was because Cyrodiil is a MASSIVE zone and you needed it to get anywhere.

The Catch-22 is this. To get Rapids I need to get to rank 5, but to get to rank 5 I need to get to the fight and I can't get there in a timely manner without rapids. In the <50 campaign at level 12, Cyrodiil is all but unplayable.

I got Vigor in Cyrodiil [before this update] without using Rapid Maneuvers.

On how many different characters?

For me its 18

TineaCruris · September 2020

duplicate

TineaCruris · September 2020

slasb16_ESO wrote: »

Rapids at Assault rank 1 had been in place since beta. The reason it was put there was because Cyrodiil is a MASSIVE zone and you needed it to get anywhere.

The Catch-22 is this. To get Rapids I need to get to rank 5, but to get to rank 5 I need to get to the fight and I can't get there in a timely manner without rapids. In the <50 campaign at level 12, Cyrodiil is all but unplayable.

Yes. This is the exact situation they were trying to create. Now you are encouraged (leveraged) to buy mount training and/or alliance skill line from the crown store.

Sgrug · September 2020

TineaCruris wrote: »

slasb16_ESO wrote: »

Rapids at Assault rank 1 had been in place since beta. The reason it was put there was because Cyrodiil is a MASSIVE zone and you needed it to get anywhere.

The Catch-22 is this. To get Rapids I need to get to rank 5, but to get to rank 5 I need to get to the fight and I can't get there in a timely manner without rapids. In the <50 campaign at level 12, Cyrodiil is all but unplayable.

Yes. This is the exact situation they were trying to create. Now you are encouraged (leveraged) to buy mount training and/or alliance skill line from the crown store.

The recalcitrance to making Rapids even a little bit easier screams that what you wrote is the real reason for this change.

As I stated before time is the single most used gate to monetization in games now, it is a bit to convenient that time is a big factor in this change and the crown store just happens to have one of the solutions to this coming out soon.

Elvenheart · September 2020

Hopefully, someone at ZO$ will realize that the amount of money they make selling the new mount and/or riding lessons will end up being much less than the amount of money they lose/have lost due to cancelled subs and players leaving the game.

LeeNordTank · September 2020

I use rapid maneuver on all my of my 12 tunes and only 2 use vigor

AlnilamE · September 2020

WeerW3ir wrote: »

Omg like you cannot feed your horse.... 💩

Can only get to 60 in speed, and rapids will speed you up above that.

karthrag_inak · September 2020

Sgrug wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

This one complained somewhat about rapids being moved - primarily the logic that a healing skill was in assault and not support. Would have been better to move vigor to first spot of support than this solution.

This one has 18 characters. When this fiasco happened, only 5 of them were higher than lvl 5 in assault. Now, however, all but 3 are. Since the change, this one leveled up characters via battlegrounds. Is easy and fun - much more exciting than cyrodiil usually is, and with quicker payouts.

Your post is what we call confirmation bias, you already do BGs so are inclined to like PvP. That you found it fun does not relate to many others who prefer to not PvP and find it onerous.

No, actually it is not confirmation bias. This one had not done a single battleground -ever- before this fiasco started, and dreaded the grind on dedicated tanks and healers.

Sgrug · September 2020

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Sgrug wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

This one complained somewhat about rapids being moved - primarily the logic that a healing skill was in assault and not support. Would have been better to move vigor to first spot of support than this solution.

This one has 18 characters. When this fiasco happened, only 5 of them were higher than lvl 5 in assault. Now, however, all but 3 are. Since the change, this one leveled up characters via battlegrounds. Is easy and fun - much more exciting than cyrodiil usually is, and with quicker payouts.

Your post is what we call confirmation bias, you already do BGs so are inclined to like PvP. That you found it fun does not relate to many others who prefer to not PvP and find it onerous.

No, actually it is not confirmation bias. This one had not done a single battleground -ever- before this fiasco started, and dreaded the grind on dedicated tanks and healers.

OK then PvP you stated 5 characters were already level 5 in assault. You must have liked PvP enough to push to level 5, whether PvP or BG point stands you were inclined to that play-style.

MrGhosty · September 2020

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Okay umm no I’m so tried of seeing this from PvE player that clearly never PvPed you can teleport to keeps before they are flagged you get A LOT OF WARNING IN ZONE CHAT you know where the fight will be and can just pop in before in flags most fights are 15-20 minutes long and good back and forth it doesn’t take anywhere near that to RUN from one keep to another.
.

This discussion is difficult enough without false claims like yours.

Many times the first indication that a keep will be under attack is that fact that it ... has come under attack. And the times it is most predictable which of your keeps will be attacked next are exactly those when the enemy is rolling and there is little chance your defense will succeed.

Further, i your claim about back-and-forth fights were true, fewer people would complain about "PvDoor".

Your ideaized dream of Cyrodiil PvP is the exception in actual Cyrodiil reality.

Farm resources usually cap before the main keep unless it's an organized zerg who are planning to hit and flip the keep quickly. At that point even a max speed mount wouldn't help reach the keep in time. You might personally reach the keep but most of the other people won't reach it in time. When its in prime time, there are usually people calling out group movements so with a bit of watching zone chat it's perfectly feasible to teleport to the right keep. Additionally, if you know you will be having a need for a faster mount, you can always begin feeding your mount in anticipation of the need (20 speed was always the go to average for traveling around the map not being miserable). From my experience, generally one zerg will move as a wave down a line of keeps, pushing out defenders over and over until they reach a pop cap point where the other side throws enough bodies to push them out. At that point it is pretty easy to anticipate where your friendly zerg will be headed. Also don't forget that most pvp guilds try to run public squads and there is almost always someone casting rapids for the group.

It sucks that the swap happened, but it's no different than zos nerfing a skill into uselessness or changing it into a stamina morph when before both were magicka. Sometimes we lose skills due to forces out of our control. I also maintain that this skill isn't vital for any part of gameplay, but it is convenient.

JoeCapricorn · September 2020

WeerW3ir wrote: »

Just let it go already....

No.

karthrag_inak · September 2020

Sgrug wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Sgrug wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

This one complained somewhat about rapids being moved - primarily the logic that a healing skill was in assault and not support. Would have been better to move vigor to first spot of support than this solution.

This one has 18 characters. When this fiasco happened, only 5 of them were higher than lvl 5 in assault. Now, however, all but 3 are. Since the change, this one leveled up characters via battlegrounds. Is easy and fun - much more exciting than cyrodiil usually is, and with quicker payouts.

Your post is what we call confirmation bias, you already do BGs so are inclined to like PvP. That you found it fun does not relate to many others who prefer to not PvP and find it onerous.

No, actually it is not confirmation bias. This one had not done a single battleground -ever- before this fiasco started, and dreaded the grind on dedicated tanks and healers.

OK then PvP you stated 5 characters were already level 5 in assault. You must have liked PvP enough to push to level 5, whether PvP or BG point stands you were inclined to that play-style.

"inclined to that playstyle?" That's both presumptuous and incorrect. This one has 18 full cp characters (cp 1336 as of this writing), all of which run vet dungeons and trials and are full 7-prof master crafters, and 7800 hours according to steam (~227 days according to /played all). Do you know how long it takes 5 characters to get to assault 5+ running in guild groups? HINT less than 1% of this one's play time, which is about accurate.

still, instead of continuously whinging on forums about this topic (granted, Karth did briefly whine in a thread he started on the topic when this change first hit) this one decided to try battlegrounds, and had fun with them. There was no catch-22, there was no need to have rapids in order to earn rapids, and after 6 or 7 battlegrounds on average per character, this one re-acquired rapids on nearly all of his characters who lost it.

Sgrug · September 2020

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Sgrug wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Sgrug wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

This one complained somewhat about rapids being moved - primarily the logic that a healing skill was in assault and not support. Would have been better to move vigor to first spot of support than this solution.

This one has 18 characters. When this fiasco happened, only 5 of them were higher than lvl 5 in assault. Now, however, all but 3 are. Since the change, this one leveled up characters via battlegrounds. Is easy and fun - much more exciting than cyrodiil usually is, and with quicker payouts.

Your post is what we call confirmation bias, you already do BGs so are inclined to like PvP. That you found it fun does not relate to many others who prefer to not PvP and find it onerous.

No, actually it is not confirmation bias. This one had not done a single battleground -ever- before this fiasco started, and dreaded the grind on dedicated tanks and healers.

OK then PvP you stated 5 characters were already level 5 in assault. You must have liked PvP enough to push to level 5, whether PvP or BG point stands you were inclined to that play-style.

"inclined to that playstyle?" That's both presumptuous and incorrect. This one has 18 full cp characters (cp 1336 as of this writing), all of which run vet dungeons and trials and are full 7-prof master crafters, and 7800 hours according to steam (~227 days according to /played all). Do you know how long it takes 5 characters to get to assault 5+ running in guild groups? HINT less than 1% of this one's play time, which is about accurate.

still, instead of continuously whinging on forums about this topic (granted, Karth did briefly whine in a thread he started on the topic when this change first hit) this one decided to try battlegrounds, and had fun with them. There was no catch-22, there was no need to have rapids in order to earn rapids, and after 6 or 7 battlegrounds on average per character, this one re-acquired rapids on nearly all of his characters who lost it.

Yes i do know. I used to PVP hardcore between 2015 and 2016 and I have done 2 toons now from level 2 to 5 and it took both around 5 hours. One I did in battle grounds and the experience was utterly miserable. It is honestly you being presumptuous assuming because you enjoyed something everyone would.

5 toons to level 5 is not idle play, it may not be hard core but it is enough that you obviously did not mind playing it then. It seems you continue to avoid the obvious conclusion of that, I suspect with purpose.

BTW todays experience in BG was several players telling me to "GIT GUD" and stop being a ***. Ya lovely, keep pushing how great it is to take a craft toon into BG's. Also before you go the route of I need to gear up right and so on..why? I was only trying to get AP and playing as best as a craft geared toon with no real skills to play. It is stupid then to tell others not only to BG to get AP for rapids but to also gear up right etc.. All you are doing is say play hard core or don't bother.

Thank you ZoS for forcing into that experience, definitely makes me want to stay with this game /s-off

karthrag_inak · September 2020

Sgrug wrote: »

5 toons to level 5 is not idle play, it may not be hard core but it is enough that you obviously did not mind playing it then. It seems you continue to avoid the obvious conclusion of that, I suspect with purpose.

BTW todays experience in BG was several players telling me to "GIT GUD" and stop being a ***. Ya lovely, keep pushing how great it is to take a craft toon into BG's. Also before you go the route of I need to gear up right and so on..why? I was only trying to get AP and playing as best as a craft geared toon with no real skills to play. it is stupid then to tell others not only to BG to get AP for rapids but to also gear up right etc.. All you are doing is say play hard core or don't bother.

yes. there is a purpose. the purpose is to say that there is no catch 22, regaining rapids is not impossible, nor is it even that hard. This one will be honest. Perhaps someone did rage at him for his incompetence in some bgs. it was easily ignored, so much so that he did not see it.

bottom line : Karth got rapids on 13 characters who had lower than 3.5 in Assault in <looks at watch> 2 weeks, along with crafting dailies on all characters 11 of those 14 days, 4 trial runs, a laughably pathetic trudge through vma, clearing 3 zones-worth of quests and perhaps 12 dungeon runs.

he would have gotten more done, but he has full time job, 3 kids and a wife who hardly understands why this one actually needs 5120 x 1440 resolution to play silly games.

Sgrug · September 2020

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Sgrug wrote: »

5 toons to level 5 is not idle play, it may not be hard core but it is enough that you obviously did not mind playing it then. It seems you continue to avoid the obvious conclusion of that, I suspect with purpose.

BTW todays experience in BG was several players telling me to "GIT GUD" and stop being a ***. Ya lovely, keep pushing how great it is to take a craft toon into BG's. Also before you go the route of I need to gear up right and so on..why? I was only trying to get AP and playing as best as a craft geared toon with no real skills to play. it is stupid then to tell others not only to BG to get AP for rapids but to also gear up right etc.. All you are doing is say play hard core or don't bother.

yes. there is a purpose. the purpose is to say that there is no catch 22, regaining rapids is not impossible, nor is it even that hard. This one will be honest. Perhaps someone did rage at him for his incompetence in some bgs. it was easily ignored, so much so that he did not see it.

bottom line : Karth got rapids on 13 characters who had lower than 3.5 in Assault in <looks at watch> 2 weeks, along with crafting dailies on all characters 11 of those 14 days, 4 trial runs, a laughably pathetic trudge through vma, clearing 3 zones-worth of quests and perhaps 12 dungeon runs.

he would have gotten more done, but he has full time job, 3 kids and a wife who hardly understands why this one actually needs 5120 x 1440 resolution to play silly games.

Easily ignored, yes but no less distasteful. I play this game to escape life, not have the ignorance of it intrude. It is called escapism and I resent ZoS for requiring me to endure those who thrive on abusing others just to get back what I had previously for 6 years.

karthrag_inak · September 2020

Sgrug wrote: »

Easily ignored, yes but no less distasteful. I play this game to escape life, not have the ignorance of it intrude. It is called escapism and I resent ZoS for requiring me to endure those who thrive on abusing others just to get back what I had previously for 6 years.

This one still thinks this is silly. Molag bal calls you worse things, he is Malcolm Mcdowell, substantially more lofty and respectable than some butt cheeze trolling you in a battle ground from his dorm room or mom's basement.

finehair · September 2020

I am in Cyrodiil %90 of the time I'm playing and %90 of the time all the keeps are being sieged gets called underattack in zonechat before they get tagged. If you are playing in below50 PvP, they won't because there aren't many players to scout keeps there and there isn't much action to get decent ap in a certain time.
Even if you have below50 characters noncp campaign is much better place to learn PvP and gain ap because there is basically action 7/24 (maybe 7/19) and lfg groups starting at morning until late night.

You won't learn PvP or gain ap by constantly getting killed to some tryhard in gold gear and mages guild ulti in below50 campaign. At least in noncp you can hide behind a zerg and still gain ap and learn what to do in Cyrodiil.

Another note; during prime time, all of the border keeps and outposts are nearly underattack %100 of the time. That means constant stream of def ticks until your faction loses it to some enemy megazerg. You can basically stay idle near the maingate of these keeps(inside the keep), alt tab to Netflix to watch your favourite tv series and whenever you hear combat music switch back to the game and hit someone with light attack to get def tick from current skirmish. If it's a big group starting a siege even better, just be an oil bot on the roof and you'll swim in ap as your enemies swim in boiling oil.