Is time broken on Nirn?

Sililos · September 2020

Been noticing across Elder Scrolls games that despite some being thousands of years apart, towns and levels of technology never change.
Even ruins such as Aylied and Dwemer dont decay beyond their current state.

This makes me think that somehow Time is broken on Nirn.
The people think times passing as normal but in reality its the same day or two just cycling but the intelligent races dont notice due to not being stuck in their routines. (Outside of those programmed for typical NPC immersion lol).

This brings up the next point, Why does Technology not seem to progress?
They are constantly stuck at an early middle ages(?) level of technology, even in Earths Dark Ages more scientific progress was made so is there some kind of 3rd party keeping the people and Daedra from advancing technologically? Would figure after such a massive amount of time thats passed between the earlyest Elder Scrolls game and the latest chronologically (Skyrim?) there would of been some advancement.

The lack of all this makes me think maybe some outside force (The Divines?) is manipulating Nirn to be stuck.

Jeffrey530 · September 2020

Probably because there's magic and people will naturally focus on aspects of it rather than technology. Why make a fridge when you can learn ice magic etc. Plus dwemers never shared their tech with others so when they disappear, the knowledge is gone

Sililos · September 2020

Jeffrey530 wrote: »

Probably because there's magic and people will naturally focus on aspects of it rather than technology. Why make a fridge when you can learn ice magic etc. Plus dwemers never shared their tech with others so when they disappear, the knowledge is gone

Very good point

Sililos · September 2020

Sililos wrote: »

Jeffrey530 wrote: »

Probably because there's magic and people will naturally focus on aspects of it rather than technology. Why make a fridge when you can learn ice magic etc. Plus dwemers never shared their tech with others so when they disappear, the knowledge is gone

Very good point

(Addition since i cant edit my post)

I also forget that its a big trope for magic societies to be lazy in that regard instead of trying to merge both aspects.

Muizer · September 2020

I don't know if there's a lore based explanation, but one obvious obstacle to technological advancement is hinted at by the existence of magic. To the extent that Nirn seems to have some laws of nature, they evidently don't hold very strongly and prove time and again to be a rather shaky foundation to build technology on.

OldManJim · September 2020

It’s Groundhog Day...again...

There’s plenty of native tribes here that never really progressed until the Europeans invaded. Just look at the Americas and Australia for instance.

Sililos · September 2020

lol got me thinking about the fridge analogy from before.

I think a fridge that mix's Technology with magic would be cool.
Instead of cooling however it acts as a stasis chamber of sorts.
You imbue it with magic to run and it creates a pocket portal (Saving on space) in which there is no passage of time. any food you put say, on one shelf will stay the same temp as when it went in while another shelf could heat with a final shelf for cooling.
When you close the door then time stops inside preserving the foods condition plus tempriture (Or alters it depending on the shelf)

RaddlemanNumber7 · September 2020

In the real world:

Nostalgia is more marketable than progress. Stagnation is more economic to design than change. There is a risk that significantly altering the game's aesthetics or mechanics, look and feel might actually break the IP.

Inside the game world:

TES has a conventional mythical model of degeneration, not progress, built into the basic design of the game world with the progression of Eras from the Golden Age of Gods (Dawn), to the Silver Age of Demi Gods (Merethic), to the Bronze Age of Heroes (Empires), to the final crappy Age of Iron exemplified by TES V:Skyrim where everything is rusty and broken, and the world is winding down to towards the end of time.

Time is circular as well as linear (this is modelled in the "sky" of Clockwork City).

The entire purpose of the Mundus' existence is for mortal souls to have a chance of passing Lorkhan's test. The world is therefore challenging. Everything is shaped to test mortals, not to coddle them. Things tend to get broken. Knowledge tends to get lost. This is God's design.

Copyists are more valued than thinkers. Freethinking and experimentation are dangerous. Rediscovering old books is safer and more rewarding.

Why use tech when there are earthbones and magic. In an animistic world its more effective to pray than it is to innovate.

Dwemer animunculi are self-maintaining. Ayleid stuff is magical.

High Elves walk backwards into the future. They crave the kind of perfection that is defined by the past. This attitude influences other peoples.

zaria · September 2020

Sililos wrote: »

lol got me thinking about the fridge analogy from before.

I think a fridge that mix's Technology with magic would be cool.
Instead of cooling however it acts as a stasis chamber of sorts.
You imbue it with magic to run and it creates a pocket portal (Saving on space) in which there is no passage of time. any food you put say, on one shelf will stay the same temp as when it went in while another shelf could heat with a final shelf for cooling.
When you close the door then time stops inside preserving the foods condition plus tempriture (Or alters it depending on the shelf)

The dwemers was kind of experts on this with their robots who use magic instead of an computer for controll, usualy powered by magic too although some larger used steam, but they are build.

Now don't think we seen an printing press in elder scroll but books are everywhere and pretty cheap so I wonder if they are partial magic too.

The sawmill in Skyrim was an 1700 design. Its an replica of an 1700 sawmill close to me. Yes they have carriage return but its not automatic, you have to use an lever to activate it.

TwinLamps · September 2020

Blame it on servers I guess

red_emu · September 2020

Let's not forget, that Mundus, Aetherius and all that exists in Elder Scrolls is just a dream of a Godhead. As we know, dreams can be unreliable and non-linear.

The best example of proof, that nothing is real is achieving the state of Chim, through which you gain awareness, that you're just a part of the Godheads dream. You can either remain within the dream and gain some sort of control over it (like Talos ascending to godhood and changing Cyrodiil from lush jungles into temperate forests or Vivec, who became immensely powerful and gained an understanding of everything and nothing).

Achieving Chim can also lead to Zero Sum: best example of that would be Dwemer who achieved Chim by tampering with thr heart of Lorkhan. Being creatures of great intelligence and logic above all, they simply zero sumed - erased themselves from the dream (this is also why I belive the Dwemer are never coming back).

In short: nothing is impossible in thr ES universe, as all existence is just a dream of the Godhead.

Nairinhe · September 2020

I'm just imagining Galerion un-friending Mannimarco on some equivalent of Facebook run by Hermaeus Mora...

zaria · September 2020

OldManJim wrote: »

It’s Groundhog Day...again...

There’s plenty of native tribes here that never really progressed until the Europeans invaded. Just look at the Americas and Australia for instance.

They progressed but it was slow going, it looks like who more technology you have you faster it tend to advance.
So if you are stone age you only have a few tools, few people and not much contact with others its easy thousands of years between inventions. The idea of research to invent new things is pretty much only done after industrialization.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · September 2020

Jeffrey530 wrote: »

Probably because there's magic and people will naturally focus on aspects of it rather than technology. Why make a fridge when you can learn ice magic etc. Plus dwemers never shared their tech with others so when they disappear, the knowledge is gone

Why make a Crossbow or a Sword when you have Magic? same logic applies yet those things still exist.

red_emu · September 2020

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Jeffrey530 wrote: »

Probably because there's magic and people will naturally focus on aspects of it rather than technology. Why make a fridge when you can learn ice magic etc. Plus dwemers never shared their tech with others so when they disappear, the knowledge is gone

Why make a Crossbow or a Sword when you have Magic? same logic applies yet those things still exist.

Not everyone on Nirn is magically gifted. It is actually not that common. Some races are more gifted than the others. Some, with affinity for magic will become mages, healers etc but some can only tap into Aetherius a little bit. We are used to being able to perform the most powerful of magics but that's only because we're the Nerevarine, Vestige etc. Then there is the mages guild that sells scrolls and potions but as stated many times: to those that have the coin, so I imagine it would be very expensive to equip your entire army with a fireball scroll, rather than swords and bows.

Varana · September 2020

Everyone on Nirn has at least the potential for rudimentary spellcasting, at least since Morrowind (and theoretically even in Daggerfall). Many may not be very proficient, but everyone can at least learn and cast some basic healing spell, or something like that.

In the end, the reason for technological stagnation is not some inherent property of Nirn; the presence of magic is just a convenient hand-wave. It's a genre convention: medieval fantasy doesn't evolve and progress, and medieval fantasy covers ridiculous time spans of thousands of years. There's a TV Trope about it:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MedievalStasis
which already takes itself a bit too seriously.

It's just how these types of fictional worlds work.

Syldras · September 2020

Varana wrote: »

It's just how these types of fictional worlds work.

And it's what people expect, I guess. I've seen people complaining about TES not being "fantasy enough" already now, just because of Dwemer technology.

Ei8htba11 · September 2020

“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”

― Arthur C. Clarke, Profiles of the Future: An Inquiry Into the Limits of the Possible

There's technology, it just takes a different form than that which we are used to.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · September 2020

red_emu wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Jeffrey530 wrote: »

Probably because there's magic and people will naturally focus on aspects of it rather than technology. Why make a fridge when you can learn ice magic etc. Plus dwemers never shared their tech with others so when they disappear, the knowledge is gone

Why make a Crossbow or a Sword when you have Magic? same logic applies yet those things still exist.

Not everyone on Nirn is magically gifted. It is actually not that common. Some races are more gifted than the others. Some, with affinity for magic will become mages, healers etc but some can only tap into Aetherius a little bit. We are used to being able to perform the most powerful of magics but that's only because we're the Nerevarine, Vestige etc. Then there is the mages guild that sells scrolls and potions but as stated many times: to those that have the coin, so I imagine it would be very expensive to equip your entire army with a fireball scroll, rather than swords and bows.

Then why not build Guns instead of Crossbows?

Fur_like_snow · September 2020

Nirn and it’s inhabitants are a dreamer’s dream.

Vevvev · September 2020

Kinda wish the technology did progress a bit in the Elder Scrolls Universe. I do know that cannons are eventually invented and outfitted on East Empire trading ships and some Dwemer airships are refitted for Imperial use, but despite those examples not much progresses technologically. Even Sotha Sil's followers went from a society based on technological progression into a stagnant cultist like one.

That being said I don't want it to go full on Guild wars 2 where you have armies fighting over a radar dish as mages cast spells, riflemen fire their muskets, and giant robots walking the field of battle armed with cannons, laser beams, and other high tech weapons. That's just going a bit overboard lol.

ArchMikem · September 2020

This topic is more suited for the Lore category,

But the biggest fan theory in Elder Scrolls right now is that the state of technologically advancement is actually declining in Tamriel, the most advanced civilizations having existed in the Dawn and Merethic Eras, and since then have been steadily receding for some reason or reasons. The most logical ones being the near constant wars, between Mortal kingdoms as well as Daedric incursions, constantly stifling and destroying progress. In TES:V you can notice Bandits are everywhere. The chaos in the world causes more and more people to choose lives of crime and anarchy instead of staying united in civilized society. This further harms progress.

ssewallb14_ESO · September 2020

TES' metaphysical lore is an allegory to it's own story writing. Linear time isn't real, it's just a concept by which other events can happen in an apparently linear and causal sequence from within the story. All of existence is just a series of ideas being extrapolated, much like writing and development. Technology hasn't progressed because the events during which it might progress have not happened.

VoxAdActa · September 2020

Time is super-broken in Nirn.

Queen Arzela has been standing outside the Bangkorai Garrison for, like, months after I saved Daggerfall. That innocent Redguard dude is still in the stocks in Evermore even though I proved him right forever ago. Finadrin keeps getting sentenced to the Rawl'Ka stocks over and over and over again, like every four minutes. The dragons have been flying around Northern Elseweyr for more than a year now, but no new destruction has taken place. North Point on Auridon will be in flames forever.

Time only moves forward for someone when you actively help them, and even then it's only by, like half an hour, and then they're stuck in that time loop again.

Grianasteri · September 2020

Sililos wrote: »

(Addition since i cant edit my post)

I also forget that its a big trope for magic societies to be lazy in that regard instead of trying to merge both aspects.

@Sililos You can edit posts, but not immediately after making them, unless you refresh the page, then the little cog icon appears top right.

ZaroktheImmortal · September 2020

There have been games of fantasy settings of games set in a sort of future setting but mixed with fantasy races and magic. But I think it's mostly because they want to keep the general same setting

robwolf666 · September 2020

Sililos wrote: »

This makes me think that somehow Time is broken on Nirn....

Maybe that's what the time traveller is all about in Western Skyrim, they're trying to fix Time.

mairwen85 · September 2020

The only real science in TES universe was with the Dwemer, and look what happened to them. The dwemer serve as a warning to those who are curious and seek to unravel the universe through artificial means. As others have said, technological advancement on Nirn has stagnated primarily because of magic--magic trumps science and is the crux of everything; magical advancement happens instead. But then again

Arthur C Clarke wrote:

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic

Jeffrey530 · September 2020

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

red_emu wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Jeffrey530 wrote: »

Probably because there's magic and people will naturally focus on aspects of it rather than technology. Why make a fridge when you can learn ice magic etc. Plus dwemers never shared their tech with others so when they disappear, the knowledge is gone

Why make a Crossbow or a Sword when you have Magic? same logic applies yet those things still exist.

Not everyone on Nirn is magically gifted. It is actually not that common. Some races are more gifted than the others. Some, with affinity for magic will become mages, healers etc but some can only tap into Aetherius a little bit. We are used to being able to perform the most powerful of magics but that's only because we're the Nerevarine, Vestige etc. Then there is the mages guild that sells scrolls and potions but as stated many times: to those that have the coin, so I imagine it would be very expensive to equip your entire army with a fireball scroll, rather than swords and bows.

Then why not build Guns instead of Crossbows?

There's no gunpowder in TES I suppose, also it is easy for someone who knows gun exist and how it works to say that. Crossbows to guns is a huge jump in technology, and probably easier just to hire mages that hurl fireballs at enemies.

You can also say why not build vehicles and atom bombs, if devs do that it'll just become fallout...

theskymoves · September 2020

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Time is super-broken in Nirn.

Queen Arzela has been standing outside the Bangkorai Garrison for, like, months after I saved Daggerfall. That innocent Redguard dude is still in the stocks in Evermore even though I proved him right forever ago. Finadrin keeps getting sentenced to the Rawl'Ka stocks over and over and over again, like every four minutes. The dragons have been flying around Northern Elseweyr for more than a year now, but no new destruction has taken place. North Point on Auridon will be in flames forever.

Time only moves forward for someone when you actively help them, and even then it's only by, like half an hour, and then they're stuck in that time loop again.

And Darien Gautier is still simultaneously eating bread at Lion Guard Redoubt AND loitering in the Orc camp in Stormhaven, years after... well, you know.

Dark_Lord_Kuro · September 2020

zaria wrote: »

Sililos wrote: »

lol got me thinking about the fridge analogy from before.

I think a fridge that mix's Technology with magic would be cool.
Instead of cooling however it acts as a stasis chamber of sorts.
You imbue it with magic to run and it creates a pocket portal (Saving on space) in which there is no passage of time. any food you put say, on one shelf will stay the same temp as when it went in while another shelf could heat with a final shelf for cooling.
When you close the door then time stops inside preserving the foods condition plus tempriture (Or alters it depending on the shelf)

The dwemers was kind of experts on this with their robots who use magic instead of an computer for controll, usualy powered by magic too although some larger used steam, but they are build.

Now don't think we seen an printing press in elder scroll but books are everywhere and pretty cheap so I wonder if they are partial magic too.

The sawmill in Skyrim was an 1700 design. Its an replica of an 1700 sawmill close to me. Yes they have carriage return but its not automatic, you have to use an lever to activate it.

I think on of the assistant created a prithing press he called the process word smashing or somthing like that