Is time broken on Nirn?

josiahva

Sililos wrote: »

Jeffrey530 wrote: »

Probably because there's magic and people will naturally focus on aspects of it rather than technology. Why make a fridge when you can learn ice magic etc. Plus dwemers never shared their tech with others so when they disappear, the knowledge is gone

Very good point

No its not. Humans are known for reverse engineering any technology they find. Look at modern day China and Japan. in the 40s and 50s the Japanese were buying up American cars to reverse engineer and improve upon....in current day China, they buy up and reverse engineer any technology they can get their hands on from anywhere....this isn't a bad thing...its human nature.

As for the magic argument, that is a non-starter as well...sure, you can learn ice magic..IF YOU ARE MAGE, but the vast majority of NPCs in the game are no such thing...there would definitely be a demand for a refrigerator.

The OP has a point here....the only way to keep technology from advancing(especially with Dwemer tech still being around) is active suppression of it.

Elvenheart

I think if the Dwemer hadn’t have disappeared technology would have continued to advance. Their disappearance forever altered the future of technology on Nirn.

robpr

Jeffrey530 wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

red_emu wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Jeffrey530 wrote: »

Probably because there's magic and people will naturally focus on aspects of it rather than technology. Why make a fridge when you can learn ice magic etc. Plus dwemers never shared their tech with others so when they disappear, the knowledge is gone

Why make a Crossbow or a Sword when you have Magic? same logic applies yet those things still exist.

Not everyone on Nirn is magically gifted. It is actually not that common. Some races are more gifted than the others. Some, with affinity for magic will become mages, healers etc but some can only tap into Aetherius a little bit. We are used to being able to perform the most powerful of magics but that's only because we're the Nerevarine, Vestige etc. Then there is the mages guild that sells scrolls and potions but as stated many times: to those that have the coin, so I imagine it would be very expensive to equip your entire army with a fireball scroll, rather than swords and bows.

Then why not build Guns instead of Crossbows?

There's no gunpowder in TES I suppose, also it is easy for someone who knows gun exist and how it works to say that. Crossbows to guns is a huge jump in technology, and probably easier just to hire mages that hurl fireballs at enemies.

You can also say why not build vehicles and atom bombs, if devs do that it'll just become fallout...

Gunpowder is Dwemer technology
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Tribunal:A_Show_of_Power (quest in TES III Tribunal where you literally blow up entrance to ruins with dwarven C4)
Also gunpowder is somewhat less practical if you have magic. Mages can control destruction radius at will, won't explode when transporting and don't require manufacturing. There is also enchanting: why using a gun that need reloading after each shot when you can cast lightning bolt with just a ring on your finger.
Even if mages are not that common, having at least one in a settlement is suffice for everyone to benefit and dont pursue to replace the convenience.

Only thing that can be viewed strange here is that armor and weapon materials don't advance.

josiahva

robpr wrote: »

Jeffrey530 wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

red_emu wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Jeffrey530 wrote: »

Probably because there's magic and people will naturally focus on aspects of it rather than technology. Why make a fridge when you can learn ice magic etc. Plus dwemers never shared their tech with others so when they disappear, the knowledge is gone

Why make a Crossbow or a Sword when you have Magic? same logic applies yet those things still exist.

Not everyone on Nirn is magically gifted. It is actually not that common. Some races are more gifted than the others. Some, with affinity for magic will become mages, healers etc but some can only tap into Aetherius a little bit. We are used to being able to perform the most powerful of magics but that's only because we're the Nerevarine, Vestige etc. Then there is the mages guild that sells scrolls and potions but as stated many times: to those that have the coin, so I imagine it would be very expensive to equip your entire army with a fireball scroll, rather than swords and bows.

Then why not build Guns instead of Crossbows?

There's no gunpowder in TES I suppose, also it is easy for someone who knows gun exist and how it works to say that. Crossbows to guns is a huge jump in technology, and probably easier just to hire mages that hurl fireballs at enemies.

You can also say why not build vehicles and atom bombs, if devs do that it'll just become fallout...

Gunpowder is Dwemer technology
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Tribunal:A_Show_of_Power (quest in TES III Tribunal where you literally blow up entrance to ruins with dwarven C4)
Also gunpowder is somewhat less practical if you have magic. Mages can control destruction radius at will, won't explode when transporting and don't require manufacturing. There is also enchanting: why using a gun that need reloading after each shot when you can cast lightning bolt with just a ring on your finger.
Even if mages are not that common, having at least one in a settlement is suffice for everyone to benefit and dont pursue to replace the convenience.

Only thing that can be viewed strange here is that armor and weapon materials don't advance.

Nope, that argument doesn't fly either. Personal defense is a thing or there would only be a couple of guards in each town. In fact, the only NPCs that don't carry conventional arms are those walking around in town...all the ones you see out and about have swords, bows, etc. Bows have limited ammunition(though MMOs tend to ignore that fact), but they still exist on Nirn.

The only real explanation that holds water is the OP's...it is being actively suppressed, though in reality, like all games and most books...the creators of the storyline just didn't stop to think about it.

If it weren't for the Dwemer ruins, I would say it could be explained by the fact than in 10,000 years of recorded history on earth, most of our advances only happened in the last 400 years....but we didnt have ancient technology sitting around everywhere showing us that something was possible either.

alanmatillab16_ESO

Time is totally banjaxxed on Nirn, I mean, i've not rescued any of the companions yet but they are kicking around giving me quests, then when I do rescue them they act as if they never met me.

16BitForestCat

There’s plenty of native tribes here that never really progressed until the Europeans invaded. Just look at the Americas and Australia for instance.

EDIT: why are quotes bugging out here? And why did a partial incomplete reply paste as a new comment at the same time? This forum code, y'all....


/Off-topic
Racist AND incorrect. (I'm not saying this poster personally is racist. I'm saying what they write here is a common misconception heavily based in xenophobia and racism.)

Non-European indigenous societies simply grew and evolved differently from many European societies. It doesn't make them "more primitive" or "less evolved" as peoples and cultures. Just. Different. Assuming that certain specific European cultures are the gold standard for the evolution of human society as a whole is the racist assumption that has been perpetuated for centuries to justify colonization. "It's okay for us to take over other countries and destroy their ancient cultures and structures and force them to assimilate into OUR culture because we're actually HELPING them evolve as humans!"

(For example, if Native American cultures were so "primitive," then please explain to me why white European settlers borrowed so heavily from Natives' medical, agricultural, social, architechtural, and governmental advancements when building the nation we now call the United States. Yet another victim of colonizer narratives rewriting history is that so few Americans actually know where much of the basis for our modern society even comes from. Instead, you get taught that the white immigrants basically "saved" the poor ignorant "Injun savages" from themselves. But it's okay because the highly fluffed and edited story of Thanksgiving exists, right?? /sarcasm)


/On-topic
I agree with others that fantasy settings are really bad about never advancing their level of technology. Just because you can magic away the contents of your chamber pot doesn't mean there's no need for indoor plumbing! Oh, you can make portals? Cool, now what about the non-mages who would really benefit from, say, public transportation that isn't a slow horse and cart? Maybe magically fueled fast-transport or something? Why are so many things that would be beneficial for society in general being reserved for the "haves" with magic while the "have-nots" without strong magic apparently never realize that they could invent their own technological alternatives?* (This is actually a common theme I tackle in my own fantasy writing and would love to see more of in general.) Elder Scrolls has in-universe reasons why technological advancement isn't a thing, but I don't personally think they're really great reasons. More like an excuse for the game writers to never have to worry about advancing society on top of the million other things they have to juggle for each game in the series. Honestly, I find it actually kinda hurts the game series lore. You can have evolution without destroying the core fabric of the games. I'm not going to stop playing Elder Scrolls just because some alchemist discovered penicillin.

*Because while Elder Scrolls tries very hard to be pseudo-European fantasy in style, it's actually very, very American in presentation--for example, the way it presents and tackles capitalism in many of its in-game societies. Capitalism is not exclusive to American society, but the way it shows up in Elder Scrolls frequently reminds me that I'm playing an American game. However, that's another discussion for another thread.

16BitForestCat

[Manually removing dupe incomplete reply, as mentioned in previous comment.]

Scion_of_Yggdrasil

For starters, I find it rather charming we are stuck in this medieval phase, and TES is one of the few remaining genres that provides this fantasy universe, when the gaming market is flooded with modern or futuristic FPS games.

Speaking of technology... Clockwork City actually made me a bit mad, not gonna lie. Of all the dwemer ruins we've explored thus far, none were quite so steampunk/futuristic, and it felt out of place in the series. I will admit, however, that I am partial to leaving steampunk out of medieval fantasy. I can't stand a fantasy realm where some people cast spells, and others use guns.... seems so contradictory and lore/logic breaking.

As others have pointed out, you don't need technology when magic can solve your problems. Medical advances? Nah. Magical advances. And not only is technology not a priority, but Tamriel keeps seeing one major disaster after another! Imagine trying to find a cure for cancer when every year something detrimental happens to the research facility. So much effort is being put into restoring Tamriel, without much extra time spent on improving it.

Oh, and one point mentioned that did make me scratch my head (removing any video game dev logic)... ruins... the ruins we have on earth are, well, ruined because of the building components, they eventually deteriorate in the elements. Perhaps the rocks/stones/other materials found and used in tamriel are hardier, or infused with magic? Providing much better structural integrity? Perhaps they are enchanted?

Interesting question indeed.

Sylvermynx

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

I think on of the assistant created a prithing press he called the process word smashing or somthing like that

Uzbek SMASH!

Kiralyn2000

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

In the real world:

Nostalgia is more marketable than progress. Stagnation is more economic to design than change. There is a risk that significantly altering the game's aesthetics or mechanics, look and feel might actually break the IP.

This. It's a series of games; made by modern humans, for modern humans. It's not a real world existing over thousands of years, or an attempt at the accurate simulation of such.

Guyle

First of all, dragonbreak bruh. Second of all, if the Dwemer hadn't gotten themselves all discombobulated and bloweded uppey and stuff, their influence on technological advancement would be far greater.

mairwen85

Guyle wrote: »

First of all, dragonbreak bruh. Second of all, if the Dwemer hadn't gotten themselves all discombobulated and bloweded uppey and stuff, their influence on technological advancement would be far greater.

But there isn't a dragon break.

wolfie1.0.

its an interesting thing to consider. i mean in history there are cases to be made for technological stagnation. In fantasy? well there is a certain amount of suspension of disbelief that is expected in most worlds and works of fantasy. IE the world works how the world works and we are expected to just go with it.

That said you have to also consider that the Era's of Tamriel from a history perspective are rather close together time wise when compared to real world history. Also when you look at our own history it has only been in the last 200-300 years or so where technology has made leaps and bounds ahead of each other. It wasn't that long ago that people were still using horses in major countries as a form of popular transportation. When compared to the rest of recorded and unrecorded history, that type of growth was unheard of. Also there are recorded instances (isolated as some of them may be) of technological stagnation or in some cases what we would call regression when a less sophisticated society conquered/invaded a more technological advanced one (ie Saxons conquering Roman Briton) or where religions repressed the thoughts needed to develop innovations.

That said there really is a good reason that TES games remain in the age and settings they do. and its a very simple one. If the setting changes too much, either the environment or gameplay, or the lore it stops BEING a TES game, and becomes something else. I mean there were plenty of reviews out there that Fallout 4 was essentially "Skyrim with Guns", but do we want the next TES game or ESO to become that? or even a Fallout 76?

mairwen85

wtlonewolf20 wrote: »

its an interesting thing to consider. i mean in history there are cases to be made for technological stagnation. In fantasy? well there is a certain amount of suspension of disbelief that is expected in most worlds and works of fantasy. IE the world works how the world works and we are expected to just go with it.

That said you have to also consider that the Era's of Tamriel from a history perspective are rather close together time wise when compared to real world history. Also when you look at our own history it has only been in the last 200-300 years or so where technology has made leaps and bounds ahead of each other. It wasn't that long ago that people were still using horses in major countries as a form of popular transportation. When compared to the rest of recorded and unrecorded history, that type of growth was unheard of. Also there are recorded instances (isolated as some of them may be) of technological stagnation or in some cases what we would call regression when a less sophisticated society conquered/invaded a more technological advanced one (ie Saxons conquering Roman Briton) or where religions repressed the thoughts needed to develop innovations.

That said there really is a good reason that TES games remain in the age and settings they do. and its a very simple one. If the setting changes too much, either the environment or gameplay, or the lore it stops BEING a TES game, and becomes something else. I mean there were plenty of reviews out there that Fallout 4 was essentially "Skyrim with Guns", but do we want the next TES game or ESO to become that? or even a Fallout 76?

They did it with fable. The game world advanced technologically and the motivations and attitudes of the characters and world populous along with that shifted. They were all still very much fable games, and had it not been for the heavy handed and overly linear nature of 3's story arc and lack of side activities, it would have worked rather successfully in my opinion. But I agree, TES is a much deeper established universe, technology or industrial advances would jar against the rich magical emphasis. I like that technology is lost, that there is knowledge of it, but it's mostly a curio, not something to further invest in enhancing, and that even so, there are a few people who do dabble.

TradoTheOne

Not only broken, but dragonbroken.

Sililos

Great replies here.

I just remembered the entire point that got me thinking about all this.
Skyrim takes place i think it was 1000? years in the future, so why are all the towns, villages and cities essentially unchanged in that time?
No new houses in Solitude? Nobody renovated? After any wars they rebuilt the same down too the brick?

Thats the laziness in game design i was starting out from, the rest about time etc just kinda snowballed out of that one thought XD

Varana

It's not laziness in game design.
It's investing quite a bit of effort into cashing in on nostalgia.

The reason for why things are what they are, e.g. technological stagnation, are motivated by the real world, and the ingame world is just written to fit with these motivations.
Most fans of classical Fantasy don't want to see muskets and pistols and Louis XIV wigs and smoking factory chimneys in their world (or only in very small doses in a limited setting - TES' steampunk dwarves are a good example). And so, the world is created around that wish. All the ingame explanations - magic, suppression, and so on - are not the actual reason why Tamriel is stagnating.

Also - yes, technological advance before the Industrial Revolution was slooooow. It was not non-existent, though. And more importantly: there were pronounced cultural changes over the ages. Tamriel ist not only stagnating with regard to technology, it's also astonishingly stale in its cultural development. It is 800 years until Morrowind, and 1000 years until Skyrim. Still, the material culture, settlements, languages, ethnicities, and so on, are very similar to each other.

Tamriel is not a "living" world, it is a setting serving one purpose: being the backdrop to a series of video games. Everything else is secondary.

P.S. Anyone remember the Wizardry games? Pseudo-medieval fantasy with space ships, hovercrafting Amazons, space-faring musket-firing Rhinos, taser-wielding insectoids, and faerie ninjas.

Guyle

First of all, dragonbreak bruh. Second of all, if the Dwemer hadn't gotten themselves all discombobulated and bloweded uppey and stuff, their influence on technological advancement would be far greater.

mairwen85 wrote: »

Guyle wrote: »

First of all, dragonbreak bruh. Second of all, if the Dwemer hadn't gotten themselves all discombobulated and bloweded uppey and stuff, their influence on technological advancement would be far greater.

But there isn't a dragon break.

How do you know there isn't a Dragon Break? Actually, it makes perfect sense for the game period if a break was happpening

Jeffrey530

josiahva wrote: »

Sililos wrote: »

Jeffrey530 wrote: »

Probably because there's magic and people will naturally focus on aspects of it rather than technology. Why make a fridge when you can learn ice magic etc. Plus dwemers never shared their tech with others so when they disappear, the knowledge is gone

Very good point

No its not. Humans are known for reverse engineering any technology they find. Look at modern day China and Japan. in the 40s and 50s the Japanese were buying up American cars to reverse engineer and improve upon....in current day China, they buy up and reverse engineer any technology they can get their hands on from anywhere....this isn't a bad thing...its human nature.

As for the magic argument, that is a non-starter as well...sure, you can learn ice magic..IF YOU ARE MAGE, but the vast majority of NPCs in the game are no such thing...there would definitely be a demand for a refrigerator.

The OP has a point here....the only way to keep technology from advancing(especially with Dwemer tech still being around) is active suppression of it.

You are saying reverse engineering is something that is easy to accomplish which it really isn't without huge corporations/man power to do so. Plus you really think dewmer tech is easy to come by? Just because you are the dragonborn/vestige/Champion doesn't mean the normal npc can stroll through the dewmer ruins and grab what's needed to be researches, and most artifacts are kept away safely in the hands of a few mages. I remember a quest in eso where a mage made a dewmer sphere moved and he was so satisfied. Yea great stride in reverse engineering.

As for fridges, that's why the mage guild exists imao. And the majority? really? You are obviously using mordern day standards to look at medieval times, and I can tell you in TES peasant lives and quality of life don't matter at all, plus most people are poor. Do they need a fridge? Probably. Do companies/individuals have the incentive to make one for them? no becuase they won't have the power to buy one. Rich people can hire mages easily.

Really there is no need of active supression, technically doesn't just come by a click from a finger

newtinmpls

TradoTheOne wrote: »

Not only broken, but dragonbroken.

Very delightfully succinctly said.

NotaDaedraWorshipper

Elder Scrolls is not the only fictional world where things doesn't seem to progress or evolve much. Star Wars is another big one and there are even longer passings of time there!

Think the makers want the world to stay the same and familiar, but still have time pass, so they feel rather stagnant.

craybest

have in mind that not counting the last 100 or 200 years, the rest of our history, things progressed really slowly.

Sililos

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

Elder Scrolls is not the only fictional world where things doesn't seem to progress or evolve much. Star Wars is another big one and there are even longer passings of time there!

Think the makers want the world to stay the same and familiar, but still have time pass, so they feel rather stagnant.

In the case of Star Wars at least it is part of the lore that they are at the apex of what they can achieve with Technology.
Like in Fallout the Microchip doesn't appear to exist instead relying on larger forms of electronics. (Hence why everythings a console instead of a Handheld tablet or even PC)

DMuehlhausen

How they handle aged buidings or buildings in disrepair has always bugged me games , and TES are some of the worse.

You will come up on buildings that priests talk about how so man thousands of travelers come and how important it is, yet all through the halls columns and stuff re crumbling to the ground. Like if you actually used this and it was important like you say this wouldn't be this way.

Or in Summerset you have the Altmer obsessed with perfection, but then have bridges that are broken underwater...umm yeah no that would be fixed real quick probably. You don't have to have something falling apart to give the sense of age to it.