Hardmode overland: mobs with instakills

ChaosWotan · August 2020

The overland mini quests are boring partly because the mechanics of mob NPCs are not challenging at all. Increasing only their health points makes it even more tedious. An easy way to create a hardmode for open world quests is to let each mob NPC attack have a 15-5 % chance of instakilling you, unless you interrupt, dodge or block. Let players choose the chance of this happening, with better rewards if you choose a 15% risk than 10% or 5%. After finishing all the hardmode mini quests in all the zones of a faction, you get a cool mount, or some other lesser reward if you decided to go for a less challenging hardmode. Alternatively, since ESO is built on greed now, let hardmode give players the right to buy a very uber-cool mount in the crown store.

Instakills are not an optimal hardmode solution, of course, but it's a cheap way for devs to make mini quests a bit more challenging, without spending time and energy on redesigning the mechanics of mob NPCs.

DigitalHype · August 2020

Hard pass.

Slyclone · August 2020

i think instakill should be instakilled.

trackdemon5512 · August 2020

Or you can run around naked and personally up your challenge. In all seriousness creating a separate difficultly level for overworld players is something that will simply NEVER happen.

The game already scales difficultly for all players so that content feels the same challenge across the board. Yet that difficulty is set at a point so not only that all players can complete said content, but that they can get through the thousands of stories in a timely fashion and continue playing through. And all of any potentially increased difficulty is defeated by the fact that instances almost always overlap and multiple players will be engaged to get the same tasks done, intentionally or inadvertently. The concept of the game of players always playing around and with each other is ingrained by the very megaserver technology they use.

Individual difficultly adjustment isn’t anything the developers should actually spend their time on. Not when they wish to keep the game accessible for all, quash bugs, keep ALL content available (unlike Destiny 2 going forward), attempt to improve performance, create new content to keep people engaged, and prepare for next-gen switch concerns.

Being constructive here, I WOULD say that what would be greatly appreciated by the solo player fan base is a second single-player arena to test one’s skills. That addresses the yearning for challenging single player combat while not having to retool everything else.

RebornV3x · August 2020

I think some of the base game world bosses could use a pass the quest bosses could be a tad harder and the so called group events in public dungeons are a joke and should be looked at everything else is fine we don't need more insta kills in this game it's no fun

ChaosWotan · August 2020

We already have vet trials and hm dungeons, with rewards not accessible to other players.

Giving veterans a free option to choose a more risky and thereby more "exciting" overland experience will not harm those who prefer an easy mode.

I'm not talking about overland bosses. Only the mobs you meet during mini quests.

After having finished vMA and done many vet dungeons, in addition to BG and fighting in Cyro, it's very boring to do mini quests only to get a few more dyes. These quests often have uninteresting storylines, and I get tired of seeing repeatedly my own combat animations when killing mobs. Yes, I can switch to my main vet dungeon toon and instakill the mobs, but that's boring too, and it defeats the purpose of having fun, a little excitement, during quests.

Besides, rewarding gamers in hardmode for good defensive play will increase the chance that some of them will become better at blocking, interrupting and dodging in vet dungeons and trials.

Mini quests should be risky, not a chore you must do in order to get more colorful dyes.

Why do some people visit casinos or choose to play Russian roulette? Partly because these unsophisticated activities create adrenaline when you fear negative consequences. It's a cheap and primitive thrill, but the lousy adrenalinkick of potentially getting instakilled (and lose the chance of getting the best rewards) is at least better than the boredom of ESO's mini quests today.

Taleof2Cities · August 2020

ChaosWotan wrote: »

We already have vet trials and hm dungeons, with rewards not accessible to other players.

What exactly does "not accessible" mean, @ChaosWotan?

Are you saying to don't want to group with other players to tackle higher challenges and rewards ... or spend time learning mechanics and high level rotations?

ESO is an MMO.

Even though ZOS does a great job for solo players, Overland is not content that should receive extra attention just because players don't want to try any other playstyle.

DigitalHype wrote: »

Hard pass.

Here's another agree for you ...

ChaosWotan · August 2020

Some vet dungeons are inaccessible, for all practical purposes, when it has become a custom in ESO to pay elite gamers to carry you through them. It's also inaccessible when average gamers get kicked or even harassed if not being very skilled during vet DLC dungeons.

Mini quests in ESO are single player content, just like the main quest and Cadwell's Silver. If the mini quests had not consisted of boring storylines I would not have minded doing them. But they feel inconsequential, no challenge at all. Harvesting mats or fishing is more "fun" because then you at least have a chance of getting valuable stuff.

tomofhyrule · August 2020

People have been complaining about instakill mechanics in DLC dungeons basically invalidating the need for roles like healers. Instakills are just a form of fake difficulty, and I'm sure that if they were implemented we'd just end up with a lot of "this is bugged"/"my block's not working"/"nerf overland mobs!" threads.

Otherwise, I see nothing in this argument that hasn't been in the last 526 "we all want harder overland!!!11!" threads.

ChaosWotan wrote: »

Why do some people visit casinos or choose to play Russian roulette? Partly because these unsophisticated activities create adrenaline when you fear negative consequences. It's a cheap and primitive thrill, but the lousy adrenalinkick of potentially getting instakilled (and lose the chance of getting the best rewards) is at least better than the boredom of ESO's mini quests today.

Let me highlight one word in your quote.

You said yourself that you've done vMA and dungeon HMs. That means that the basic overland content is not for you - you're more advanced than that. The basic overland is for the new players who are not looking up how to build their characters to any specific meta, for the players who just want to relax and have fun.

Not all people consider 'fun' as "OMG I might die!" Some people consider 'fun' as "Look at my pretty dress!" or "Ooh, I can pick flowers in a pretty world!" And I'm sure ZOS has data on how many players run vMA versus don't...and I'm willing to bet that the vMA players are in the minority.

Besides, even some endgame players might not be able to do vMA. If I'm not mistaken, you need to have a good DPS build for that, which means any of the standard 3k DPS tanks will need to completely respec just to run Maelstrom. I know that, built as a tank as I am, I'm nowhere near facerolling overland since I don't have the DPS to do that. Could I respec? Yeah. But then I can't really complain that it's too easy when I build my character specifically to faceroll overland content.

We don't need to make Russian roulette mechanics in overworld since one or two people wants to get instagibbed by a mudcrab for their fun. If that's what you want, you're perfectly free to go solo Moon Hunter.

Besides, there are a lot of people who prefer things light and casual...as evidenced by the massive pushback to people now having to do PvP to get their horse speed skill back. Why are people hesitant to do that, even though you can get AP by doing the Cyrodiil PvE quests and scouting missions? "I don't want to get ganked by other people."

...so it seems that there are also a lot of people who don't want overland instakills...

Gythral · August 2020

Dark Souls >>>>

guess where I'm not off to...

ChaosWotan · August 2020

Again, having two options, one for those who prefer easy mode and another option for veterans, will increase freedom of choice and "play as you want".

Most people in ESO don't do vet dungeons designed for the elite. Most gamers don't even participate in this forum. Just being in the majority doesn't mean that you are right.

I want to do mini quests because I've done almost everything else in the game, but each time I try to play them I get bored. It feels pointless.

Ideally, I wished that all mini quests had great storylines and creative NPC mob mechanics. But that's not the case. However, give me a cool reward after finishing all the mini quests in a faction, and I will get more motivated. Will also take these quests more seriously if I have to focus on surviving instead of killing with impunity in "god-mode". Some cheap "Russian roulette" action is better than not having any challenge at all.

And I'm not a mindless thrill-seeker btw. Enjoy scrying, and this one is also a Grand Master Decorator

madrab73 · August 2020

ChaosWotan wrote: »

The overland mini quests are boring partly because the mechanics of mob NPCs are not challenging at all. Increasing only their health points makes it even more tedious. An easy way to create a hardmode for open world quests is to let each mob NPC attack have a 15-5 % chance of instakilling you, unless you interrupt, dodge or block. Let players choose the chance of this happening, with better rewards if you choose a 15% risk than 10% or 5%. After finishing all the hardmode mini quests in all the zones of a faction, you get a cool mount, or some other lesser reward if you decided to go for a less challenging hardmode. Alternatively, since ESO is built on greed now, let hardmode give players the right to buy a very uber-cool mount in the crown store.

Instakills are not an optimal hardmode solution, of course, but it's a cheap way for devs to make mini quests a bit more challenging, without spending time and energy on redesigning the mechanics of mob NPCs.

Have you cleared COS HM solo?

Luke_Flamesword · August 2020

Overland is overland - it can be easy, anyway after quests is for farming, treasure chest and other random stuff. What ZOS can gives without much work is difficulty choose in delves. There are really a lot delves all around Tamriel, so this gives a lot of veteran content and is quite easy to implement. Also begginer players will like not having a lot of 810 CP clearing content in seconds

SpiritofESO · August 2020

ChaosWotan · August 2020

I want to finish the mini quests in order to get the dye rewards. But it's utter boredom to do these quests. Have in another thread suggested that mini quests should be account wide, so that you can finish them with many alts, thereby getting more variety in the combat animations. But guess that this suggestion will be ignored too.

If ESO wants to keep veterans in the game, as long as possible, it should make ALL content interesting for them too.

Tommy_The_Gun · August 2020

Insta-kills should not be in this game imho to begin with. It is cheap mechanics. Games with good design do not have those.

Gythral wrote: »

Dark Souls >>>>

guess where I'm not off to...

Dark Souls did not had "true" insta-kills. If you had a good build in Dark Souls you would not die to an "insta-kill". When one character was hit by 100% of his/her health pool, other character with larger health pool would be hit by 70 - 80%.

Imho this is how it should be in ESO. If a tanks with 40K health gets hit, he/she should still be able to recover. If a DPS or Healer with lower health pool & damage mitigation gets hit - they die.

There is simply no point to invest a lot in health in ESO, even if you are a tank... which is weird.

El_Borracho · August 2020

ChaosWotan · August 2020

I want true instakills unless you pay attention and block, dodge or interrupt them. Or else I can just create tank gear and respec to enter god-mode again, which is boring. I want a risky game!

That's the best option, imo, as long as devs don't care about creating better storylines and better NPC mob mechanics.

My advice to newbies: do all the mini quests first when starting the game, because they will be boring after you finish more challenging and interesting content. I started in 2014 and have still not done 95% of the mini quests. Because they are the opposite of exciting, with little or no storyline value.

robwolf666 · August 2020

Sounds like a great way to run of the people who play it for entertainment rather than ridiculous difficulty.

danno8 · August 2020

More damage from "wind up" special attacks from NPC's wouldn't be a bad thing, considering now you can just ignore them and take them out whenever you feel like it. NOT instakill though.

In old VR levels you had to take out archers first, or at least interrupt them because their attacks actually hurt you. Same with casters. Problem with VR levels was that the NPC's had too much health so it took too long to kill them.

I wouldn't mind having to pay attention to the mobs I mow down.

ChaosWotan · August 2020

With my main vet dungeon toon I can instakill mobs faster than picking a flower. That's no fun. Sleepwalking through mobs in god-mode is slow-killing the fun of mini-quests.

Is it really that difficult to create a hardmode option that adds a 15% instakill risk to the same mob attacks we got now in extremely-easy mode?

Apropos majority votes for or against my suggestion: many vets who were very active in this forum have left the game, years ago. This forum had about twice as much activity in 2015 than it has today. One reason why people leave, besides lag and such, is that there is not enough new content and the old content is often boring or have little replay value. Not to offend my liberal friends but I say: make ESO risky again

Scrollup · August 2020

INSTAKILL IS DUMB it should be used at 5% of the game only. Only endgame boss.

Also, if you crave hard mode so much, why not just unequip your gear set and just use your main weapon? That should resolve anyone's request. /s

But yea I understand what you are trying to say though.

Better option is to have it required a full party of 4 players if people really want it to be hard. Or just add a new tier World Boss.

ChaosWotan · August 2020

As already mentioned, using low-level gear against mobs will just extend how long it takes to kill mob NPCs, which is boring too. Better then to just instakill all of them, but that will also make questing a pointless enterprise.

Wish people would read what I write in this thread instead of just assuming that I either want instakills for the sake of instakills or have not understood that I can simply de-skill myself to make mob fights last longer.

I don't want longer fights (aka tedious combat) but challenging fights when being forced by the game to finish mini quests in order to get dyes.

Aznarb · August 2020

tomofhyrule wrote: »

People have been complaining about instakill mechanics in DLC dungeons basically invalidating the need for roles like healers. Instakills are just a form of fake difficulty, and I'm sure that if they were implemented we'd just end up with a lot of "this is bugged"/"my block's not working"/"nerf overland mobs!" threads.

Otherwise, I see nothing in this argument that hasn't been in the last 526 "we all want harder overland!!!11!" threads.

ChaosWotan wrote: »

Why do some people visit casinos or choose to play Russian roulette? Partly because these unsophisticated activities create adrenaline when you fear negative consequences. It's a cheap and primitive thrill, but the lousy adrenalinkick of potentially getting instakilled (and lose the chance of getting the best rewards) is at least better than the boredom of ESO's mini quests today.

Let me highlight one word in your quote.

You said yourself that you've done vMA and dungeon HMs. That means that the basic overland content is not for you - you're more advanced than that. The basic overland is for the new players who are not looking up how to build their characters to any specific meta, for the players who just want to relax and have fun.

Not all people consider 'fun' as "OMG I might die!" Some people consider 'fun' as "Look at my pretty dress!" or "Ooh, I can pick flowers in a pretty world!" And I'm sure ZOS has data on how many players run vMA versus don't...and I'm willing to bet that the vMA players are in the minority.

Besides, even some endgame players might not be able to do vMA. If I'm not mistaken, you need to have a good DPS build for that, which means any of the standard 3k DPS tanks will need to completely respec just to run Maelstrom. I know that, built as a tank as I am, I'm nowhere near facerolling overland since I don't have the DPS to do that. Could I respec? Yeah. But then I can't really complain that it's too easy when I build my character specifically to faceroll overland content.

We don't need to make Russian roulette mechanics in overworld since one or two people wants to get instagibbed by a mudcrab for their fun. If that's what you want, you're perfectly free to go solo Moon Hunter.

Besides, there are a lot of people who prefer things light and casual...as evidenced by the massive pushback to people now having to do PvP to get their horse speed skill back. Why are people hesitant to do that, even though you can get AP by doing the Cyrodiil PvE quests and scouting missions? "I don't want to get ganked by other people."

...so it seems that there are also a lot of people who don't want overland instakills...

Disagree on vMA "need a good dps" part.
As healer I was told that and ear about player who struggle doing it so I never have tried afraid to not be good enough at doing damage.
I finally did it one day of boredom, pick my purple dps gear I use for overland with atro stone and regen magika on jewel cuz lazy to change.
Did it in the 1st run w/o knowing strat took me 1h20 and still had vitality. It's was a total disappointment how easy it was. It's just about paying attention and understanding mechanic, that all, everyone can do it.

That said I don't see the point of making open world harder, their is enough casual/low skill/new player who already struggle in it. Open in eso is for them, let them have fun.

We've plenty of cool DLC with challenging HM (last boss of Stone Garden un HM is amazing try it if you need hard content)

And last insta-kill is stupid, is what make healer useless in good group of player who avoid danger perfectly.

trackdemon5512 · August 2020

Most importantly, we already have increased difficulty overland content: Craglorn. The internal stats are very clear that many players completely ignore this zone absent nirnhoned mats and grouping for trials. It’s engagement is well below that of any other zone, particularly amongst non-hardcore players.

I understand players want a “difficulty switch”. Perhaps what you can really want is a CP OFF toggle which is a work around. Thing is I wouldn’t count on that either with ZOS actively looking to restructure the CP System and not completely dismantle it.

ChaosWotan · August 2020

Once again, hardmode doesn't exclude easy mode. If a vet fights a mob in hm, next to a newbie in easy mode, the only difference is that the vet will die more often if not paying attention to what the mob is doing.

Once again: this thread is about making overland more fun for vets (who want dye rewards by finishing mini quests). Saying that I can find hardmode in other parts of the game is irrelevant.

Taleof2Cities · August 2020

ChaosWotan wrote: »

Once again: this thread is about making overland more fun for vets (who want dye rewards by finishing mini quests). Saying that I can find hardmode in other parts of the game is irrelevant.

Once again: I've explained already that other parts of the game are pretty relevant.

ESO is an MMO genre ... and grouping with other players is expected before a player even downloads and clicks "play".

Which is why enhancing overland solo gameplay is not at the top of the developers' (or players') priorities.

ChaosWotan · August 2020

When the main quest, Cadwell's Silver and tons of mini quests are all single player, then fun and challenging solo gaming is very relevant, as already mentioned earlier in this thread.

kargen27 · August 2020

A lot of players have asked for harder overland content and have suggested ways to achieve it. The requests start as wanting to make the game challenging so it is fun again. Then they tie bonus rewards to doing the hard content. I am all for a way to make overland more challenging but there should be no extra rewards associated with doing things harder. Players should not feel compelled to do the harder levels to keep up with the rewards. It should be for the fun of doing it.

Even though I support the idea of making overland harder for those who wish I don't feel your ideas are the way to go. A casual player wanting to enjoy the stories shouldn't have to worry about getting one shot along the way.

ChaosWotan · August 2020

A casual player can choose easy mode, as already mentioned.

What is most fun for a newbie during a mini quest: 1) I come along and instakill all the mobs he is fighting, or 2) he sees me being busy dodging, blocking and interrupting, before going up in flames, while he kills the mob?

Rewards are important, (especially when mini quests have mediocre storylines). That's just elementary psychology.

But an alternative is not to hide dye rewards behind the current wall of boredom aka "mini quests". Then I can get these dyes and drop tons of solo quests, ... and find another game which has more and better content.

Czeri · August 2020

Heh, those of us who played back then veteran ranks were a thing do remember what it was like to die when you accidentally stepped on a mudcrab... It wasn't nearly as much fun as you'd think.