Hardmode overland: mobs with instakills

ChaosWotan

I started playing at the end of 2014. Great fun. Back then I also felt it boring to do mini quests after doing Cadwell's Silver.

Daemons_Bane

Does it make you feel better, calling yourself a veteran.? And what makes a "veteran".?

ChaosWotan

Yes, my self-esteem goes down the drain if I don't call myself a veteran

kargen27

ChaosWotan wrote: »

A casual player can choose easy mode, as already mentioned.

What is most fun for a newbie during a mini quest: 1) I come along and instakill all the mobs he is fighting, or 2) he sees me being busy dodging, blocking and interrupting, before going up in flames, while he kills the mob?

Rewards are important, (especially when mini quests have mediocre storylines). That's just elementary psychology.

But an alternative is not to hide dye rewards behind the current wall of boredom aka "mini quests". Then I can get these dyes and drop tons of solo quests, ... and find another game which has more and better content.

They can choose easy mode right up until you offer different and better rewards for hard mode then they feel compelled to make the move. You proved that with your elementary psychology comment. I would like sometimes to have a more challenging experience doing overland activity. It would be fun. I don't need a reward for having more fun. The fun is the reward.
If there is a game out there that provides you with more fun why grind for dyes in this game? Games are about entertaining yourself for a while. Don't make it a grind by feeling you need some reward. You are falling for the same thing you want to push on casual players with extra rewards in harder instances. Linking harder game play to better rewards is going to get more push back from more players. ZoS is also less likely to add the harder options knowing the backlash they will face in linking rewards to those options. If you really want harder content it would be a good idea to quit linking it to added rewards.

doomette

Nyaaaaaaaaaaaah side quests

Okay, now I feel better.

tomofhyrule

kargen27 wrote: »

ChaosWotan wrote: »

A casual player can choose easy mode, as already mentioned.

What is most fun for a newbie during a mini quest: 1) I come along and instakill all the mobs he is fighting, or 2) he sees me being busy dodging, blocking and interrupting, before going up in flames, while he kills the mob?

Rewards are important, (especially when mini quests have mediocre storylines). That's just elementary psychology.

But an alternative is not to hide dye rewards behind the current wall of boredom aka "mini quests". Then I can get these dyes and drop tons of solo quests, ... and find another game which has more and better content.

They can choose easy mode right up until you offer different and better rewards for hard mode then they feel compelled to make the move. You proved that with your elementary psychology comment. I would like sometimes to have a more challenging experience doing overland activity. It would be fun. I don't need a reward for having more fun. The fun is the reward.
If there is a game out there that provides you with more fun why grind for dyes in this game? Games are about entertaining yourself for a while. Don't make it a grind by feeling you need some reward. You are falling for the same thing you want to push on casual players with extra rewards in harder instances. Linking harder game play to better rewards is going to get more push back from more players. ZoS is also less likely to add the harder options knowing the backlash they will face in linking rewards to those options. If you really want harder content it would be a good idea to quit linking it to added rewards.

This is what a lot of these type of threads go down to: "I want a harder overland with better rewards!" As much as people claim that 'everyone' wants a challenge, it always makes me wonder... If the 'higher rewards' part weren't there, would people still want to do the harder overland just for the challenge?

And then I see that the number of people going to fight the (harder than basegame) WBs in Vvardenfell, Hew's Bane, NElsweyr, etc.; all of the dragons in NElsweyr except the one by the wayshrine; the SElsweyr WBs until they started dropping the SoS motif... Really the only bosses that see action are the Gold Coast ones (and that Minotaur motif sells really well), the Harrowstorms (now that we've got a bunch of brand new high priced drops - before they were nothing special), and now the base WBs that drop leads (but that's also cooled off by now).

Yeah - I don't think most people want 'the challenge.' They want the 'increased rewards' part.

And more interestingly, I notice you're talking about cosmetics as your 'increased rewards.' One of my biggest pet peeves is locking cosmetics behind really hard content. Look at the number of people complaining that the Nord boat can only be obtained by clearing vKA - sure there are a lot of endgame players who are into housing, but there are a lot of housing players who can't do endgame content. See also the personalities locked behind vDLC challenger achievements (especially now that Necro is a class and Greymoor has a big werewolf focus). Or the fact that the best black dye is locked behind Legate rank in PvP.

ChaosWotan wrote: »

Again, having two options, one for those who prefer easy mode and another option for veterans, will increase freedom of choice and "play as you want".

And you're immediately also suggesting that people who aren't 'good enough' shouldn't be able to get the cosmetics they want. If it really is 'play as you want,' shouldn't that mean that vet mode gets bragging rights and nothing else? Then people who are only interested in dyeing their dress a pretty color don't have to gamble with getting one shot by a mudcrab for it.

I play as I want when I'm questing - I RP walk, listen to all of the dialogue, and spend ages trying to get screenshots of my fights (to the point that I've died to story bosses since I've got the UI off and am too busy trying to line up a shot than attack back. Heck, sometimes I stop fighting and let them kill me so I can reset the fight since I didn't get a good enough shot). I also don't have my good sets on since I don't want my screenshots ruined by a Monster Helm effect. In short: for me, 'play as you want' is a storytelling mode where the game is low-no stakes, and the danger is made up in my head when I'm writing. I've spent hours just sitting at an outfit station just trying to decide what boots go best with my character's outfit, and I've got well over 5 pages just for my character's backstory. I can't wait to start my next character, but I'm still trying to decide his name and haircolor (and wishing beyond anything that ZOS will finally release the Short Mussed Wave, since I think it's perfect for him)

But in order to unlock the Beast personality, I couldn't play as I wanted. I had to learn how to do my role, grind for sets, practice, etc. It's still fun, but it's a different way to play. It really did mean putting my casual RP playstyle on hold while I played 'right.' I do like it, and it's fun to do vet dungeons/trials and unlock stuff. But I am starting to miss my old RP stuff as well...

Point here is - sometimes 'play as you want' and 'grind to unlock' are not the same thing.

We do have achievements to grind for if there's still something you want to get. I know I haven't done any trifectas (I've actually only gotten one vDLC nodeath so far), so there's still a lot for me to strive for if I want to. But there's also the fact that I miss my casual playing, and I like that I've finally gotten most things I need for my story to be fun for me.

Daemons_Bane

ChaosWotan wrote: »

Yes, my self-esteem goes down the drain if I don't call myself a veteran

Well, pretty sure that I've earned the right to use that title too.. So from one "vet" to another, your idea is horrible.. adding random insta kills to mob could severely impact new players in a negative way.. especially since a lot of them would feel forced to pick a higher chance, to get better loot

idk

ChaosWotan wrote: »

An easy way to create a hardmode for open world quests is to let each mob NPC attack have a 15-5 % chance of instakilling you, .

Players complain about one-shot mechanics because they failed to respond to the very predictable mechanic so I doubt Zos will add random and less predictable mechanics to every overland mob, or even some of them.

Funny story, when the game launched 2H mobs in vet dungeons cold one-shot a player who did not block or move out of their heavy attack. Ofc, they have been nerfed hard.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

I would rather not my Master Blood Scion Vestige, slayer of Dragons and Daedra feel weak by getting 1 shot by a creature which lorewise should be FAR beneath him after having worked so hard to get as powerful as he is.

Czeri

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Does it make you feel better, calling yourself a veteran.? And what makes a "veteran".?

I wasn't calling myself a veteran. I was referring to the period in ESO history prior to champion points. Back then after level 50 you'd become veteran rank 1 and could progress to veteran rank 12, then 14, and then the whole system was rejigged. Zones were having steady ranks for each alliance, so your first Caldwell silver zone would be veteran rank 1, the next one veteran rank 2, and so on. And the difficulty level spiked to the point that you could (and did) die to a group of 3 mudcrabs.

MasterSpatula

If I were a game developer and took pride in my work, I would consider being asked to put one-shots into my work at all to be insulting. It's a cheap tactic to simulate challenge without putting in the real work of a challenge.

But to put one-shots onto the nuisance mobs? That goes beyond cheap tactics and into Batman-villain levels of deranged cruelty.

eKsDee

I would love a harder overland and firmly believe that the lack of difficulty in overland is actively harming players, but random one-shots is absolutely not the way to handle it. Random one-shots offer very little opportunities to learn, ultimately frustrating the player long before they realise the mistake their making.

Damage dealt needs to be carefully balanced, such that it's high enough to make the player realise they're making a mistake and instill a sense of urgency towards fixing said mistake, while also being low enough to give the player the opportunity to recover and fix said mistake.

One-shots in general cover the former, but not the latter, which is why they generally just result in frustration. You'd need something more along the lines of a 1.5-2 shot's worth of damage to cover both.

ChaosWotan

As already mentioned several times: instakills are a lousy option but still better than no challenge at all.

As already mentioned: I would not have focused on getting harder content if the storylines in the mini quests had been interesting and fun in themselves.

Adding a 15% chance of getting instakilled by a mob NPC if not blocking, interrupting or dodging means that you only have to resurrect and do it again, until your defense score improves enough to finish hardmode, in your own tempo. The best rewards will therefore be available to all players, unlike some vet dungeons/trials where you will get kicked from the group if not being good enough (unless you pay them to carry you or have a large trial guild with friendly non-competitive gamers).

The argument that ESO should prioritize other things, such as fixing the lag in Cyro, can be used to reject almost any type of complaint or suggestion in this forum. The fact is that ESO isn't fixing a lot of things, ever, (except increasing the content of the crown store while occasionally releasing a DLC that takes maybe a half hour to finish in normal mode). In this situation I'm happy if ESO just implements a cheap and simple hardmode option for mini quests. Or have no dye reward attached to them at all.

But ESO will probable ignore this thread, so I will just take my main vet dungeon toon and instakill all mobs during mini-questing.

Just another chore in Tamriel

Gundug

I don’t have an opinion either way on this, but the chance of being instantly killed while surrounded by a mob of 20 trash enemies at 15% would be insanely high. It would be difficult to see the tell, and if several happened to initiate the kill move all around the same time, you would be hard pressed to survive them all. Add in the snares and hard CCs the majority of mobs have, and players would die an awful lot.

ChaosWotan

I wrote earlier that the chance should be between 5% and 15%. I'm just "brainstorming" here, quickly sketching an option that the devs might consider.

Mrtoobyy

I love the idea of harder overland content. I remember after launch when I teamed up with a couple of friends and went to higher level areas cause I would die if I went there by myself.
Like in wow when you NEED others help with elite quests etc.

I don't want the level system back since it makes low level areas useless once leveled out.

But a good example IMO would be something like Diablo 3 difficulty system. Increasing difficulty increases exp/loot etc.
And for group questing "the more people in your group the stronger tamriels monsters become"

Elder scrolls games foundation is adventuring and the online feature in ESO enables adventuring with friends.
The thing is I miss quest/overland content that requires/rewards you for group play.

redlink1979

Overland hardmode? Just unequip the char's gear and don't allocate cp.

Integral1900

If it just effects the player using it then fine, I’m happy to sit and watch them die

Personally if I want to spend time screaming in frustration I will go to work ☹️

AgaTheGreat

I've yet to see veteran players do any overland content.
They log in, stand around in a town, maybe do some crafting writs and later raid for 2 - 3 hours.

hafgood

The only way this could work is with a separate instance for hard mode. You can't have individual settings with some in easy amd one on hard on the same boss, the server load would be horrendous while it had to figure it all out at the same time

And hard mode overland instance would be empty as very few players would bother with it unless there was better rewards.

And that we don't need

Mrtoobyy

hafgood wrote: »

The only way this could work is with a separate instance for hard mode. You can't have individual settings with some in easy amd one on hard on the same boss.

You're right! I didnt think about that.
I think you're on to something.

Imagine questing and randomly finding a cave (Delve etc) and trying it out by yourself just to realize it's too hard and you need to find help from others.
That would be soo cool!

Making delves, public dungeons instances too would enable configurable "hardmodes" for
some of the questing. And thus giving them more weight/immersion since they have quests/item drops tied to them.
A good thing about that is you'd never have to wait for a boss to respawn due to others already have killed it

ChaosWotan

If a player chooses hm overland, is it really that difficult to create an algorithm which simply adds a 5-15 % instakill risk to each mob NPC attack? This can be done without changing any combat mechanics of the NPCs, so why do you need an extra instance for this kind of hardmode?

Thechuckage

Overland scaling is not done well in regards to CP levels. Yes Craglorn was a slaughterfest, but that was pre-CP.

These days, nearly all WB's can be solo'd without problem. The Hunger in vvardenfell is the only one that needs a 2nd player to bash em or just a pet sorc to keep the damage going when it stuns you.

But one-shots? Lazy and un-fun mechanic.

Never understood the pushback against better rewards for harder content. More ways to get those same rewards, I think could be argued, but everything should not be available for every activity.

ChaosWotan

"But one-shots? Lazy and un-fun mechanic."

Having to pay attention to what the mob is doing is better than just instakilling them. What's the fun in doing that? What is more lazy than that?

The other alternatives is to remove dye rewards from these (silly) mini-quests or make them (plus fishing) account wide, so that you can finish the zones with many alts, thereby getting variety in combat.

Now, however, a lot of quests go to waste, from a vet perspective, simply because devs don't care enough to make them exciting. Too bad...

BlueRaven

ChaosWotan wrote: »

Again, having two options, one for those who prefer easy mode and another option for veterans, will increase freedom of choice and "play as you want".

Most people in ESO don't do vet dungeons designed for the elite. Most gamers don't even participate in this forum. Just being in the majority doesn't mean that you are right.

I want to do mini quests because I've done almost everything else in the game, but each time I try to play them I get bored. It feels pointless.

Ideally, I wished that all mini quests had great storylines and creative NPC mob mechanics. But that's not the case. However, give me a cool reward after finishing all the mini quests in a faction, and I will get more motivated. Will also take these quests more seriously if I have to focus on surviving instead of killing with impunity in "god-mode". Some cheap "Russian roulette" action is better than not having any challenge at all.

And I'm not a mindless thrill-seeker btw. Enjoy scrying, and this one is also a Grand Master Decorator

You will be splitting the population.

Harrowstorms, WBs, etc will have even less people doing them per zone.

ChaosWotan

Why and how willl hardmode in solo quests overland split the population when it's not two instances but only one, with the only difference for hardmode is that you risk not getting the best rewards if not paying attention to quickly blocking, interrupting or dodging instakills?

I wonder how much hate I will get in chat from newbies when I steal all their kills with my vet toon.

And again: de-skilling my toon is not an option. I have tried that, and it's boring like hell, similar to the "fun" of slowly killing a vet boss dummy in my house.

Rewards matter. How many would have done endless dungeon grinding (in the past) if there were no rewards at the end of it?

How many would have done scrying if there was no mount reward or no Wild Hunt ring?

But ESO will just ignore this debate, so no point continuing it.

eKsDee

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

I've yet to see veteran players do any overland content.
They log in, stand around in a town, maybe do some crafting writs and later raid for 2 - 3 hours.

Because none of the overland content is worth doing as a veteran player, unless you just care about story. There's virtually no gameplay there since all overland content bar world bosses is meant for absolute beginners (even then, world bosses aren't hard at all for a veteran player, and can be soloed even on a character below 50), and there's virtually no incentive to do the content beyond the very few set pieces that drop as quest rewards.

Group content is actually worth doing. There's actual gameplay within group content, since the content is designed to encourage and facilitate group coordination, and there's incentive to run group content between bind-on-pickup gear that's exclusive to the dungeon/trial/arena, upgraded versions of said gear rewarded for clearing said content on veteran mode, achievements that are actually challenging (and hence satisfying) to unlock, pushing leaderboard scores, and just general progression through said content.

When overland content is dumbed down to attempt to allow anybody to play and enjoy themselves, and isn't scaled correctly to actually allow anybody to play and enjoy themselves, of course veteran players won't do it, when it alienates them by being far too easy.

Look at other MMO's where overland can present an actual challenge to veteran players, and has actual incentive to run it (whether it be better loot, exclusive drops, world events, etc), and you'll see veteran players participating, even in earlier zones where applicable (ie in Guild Wars 2 where players are scaled down). This is simply an issue with ESO's overland content not being enjoyable for veteran players.

idk

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

I've yet to see veteran players do any overland content.
They log in, stand around in a town, maybe do some crafting writs and later raid for 2 - 3 hours.

I know many top raiders that look forward to the new storyline that comes out with each zone DLC. I know many who go on to get many of the achievements, especially if they offer a momentos, costume, or polymorph. Like most players they have more than a single focus in the game. Also, never heard any of them complain about the difficulty of quest NPCs or overland as they go for their challenge in the content designed and intended to offer challenges.

ChaosWotan

"Also, never heard any of them complain about the difficulty of quest NPCs or overland as they go for their challenge in the content designed and intended to offer challenges."

Do you know all the vets who have left the game long ago?

Ask the top players you know: do you find it worthwhile to finish all of the approximately 50 quests in each zone, only to get a few dye rewards, after having done content with creative combat mechanics, excellent rewards and good storylines? If they enjoy this transition, good for them. I find it boring and rather pointless.

redgreensunset

Well they just did a stream for a German con and while I haven't watched all of it others have given an overview of what was said and re: overland the answer was, 'vet overland isn't happening as it is cp/power creep that's the real culprit and cp will get an overhaul next year'.