Does anyone else feel that the Alkosh changes are underwhelming?

jesse318sub17_ESO · August 2020

Well, in case anyone WAS actually curious about my CP since this thread got no attention for it's purpose:

My tanks blue CP before Stonethorn: 100 in Blessed and Elfborn, with 66 in Precise Strikes. The remaining 4 didn't form a jump point and were split evenly between Piercing and Spell Erosion.

My tanks blue CP after Stonethorn: 100 in Blessed and Elfborn, with 66 in Precise Strikes. The remaining 4 didn't form a jump point and were allocated to Piercing.

Result: I changed 2 CP.

Celestro · August 2020

jesse318sub17_ESO wrote: »

Calypso589 wrote: »

jesse318sub17_ESO wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

jesse318sub17_ESO wrote: »

Again, I want to reiterate this is not about my CP but about what the changes ZoS is making to Alkosh. All it is doing is making tanks respec their CP and nothing else. I highly doubt this was intentional and it is a problem that should be resolved.

Well that I can agree with, in my previous comment I said that their changes were intended to move the set from being required on tanks to being more optimal on dps as a support set. That much is obvious and they failed there extravagantly, that is the problem that needs to be resolved.

The issue your proposing about respeccing blue CP is not a problem for the majority of players as they will do it once and forget about it..

Tanks who respec frequently for the given content, will still do so to optimze their red CP and although blue CP isn't really necessary to change, they will if they feel they want to optimize for Alkosh. Even then, there is 270 points and only a few stars worth it, beyond 60ish points it's a difference of 1-3% meaning most people will probably spread their points evenly and keep it the same here.

Tanks who don't like respeccing frequently only need to respec once if they want to juice out this set a little. You seriously don't need 100 points in Mighty and Master at Arms to make it function well.

Based on your comment, you already have a ton of free points to spend due to deminishing returns so while it may be an issue for you, your grasping at straws here.

I'm gonna take a guess and say this is what your blue CP looks like:
Blessed: 100 (15% Healing Done)

Elfborn: 81 (24% Spell Crit Healing)

Precise Strikes: 81 (24% Weapon Crit Healing)

Spell Erosion: 4 (413 Spell Penetration (0.82% Mitigation penetrated))

Piercing: 4 (413 Weapon Penetration (0.82% Mitigation penetrated))

What you could go with:
Blessed: 64 (13% Healing Done)

Elfborn: 40 (16% Spell Crit Healing)

Precise Strikes: 40 (16% Weapon Crit Healing)

Spell Erosion: 0

Piercing: 21 (1984 Weapon Penetration (3.968% Mitigation penetrated))

Master at Arms: 56 (20% Direct Damage)

Mighty: 49 (11% Physical/Poison/Disease Damage)

I'm not sure what tanks will actually go with, but this is what I'd do if I were in your position. You're losing 2% healing done and 8% crit healing for another 3% penetration, 20% direct damage and 11% physical damage which should be more than enough to buff Alkosh with some added benefits to your dps, if any.

The actual use case of that crit healing your concerned with is a difference of 1.74x to 1.66x at base, a loss of about 5%, even less if your a Khajiit and/or using the new Shadow Mundus stone... thats if you crit 100% of the time, to which you probably only have 25-35% of meaning that 5% loss is only like 1.5-2% lost.

Again, not to sound rude but I want to repeat that this is not about my CP, it's about what ZoSes change to Alkosh is doing. Which is basically nothing as far as who is going to use it. When I use Alkosh, I now respec my CP to boost the proc damage. Annoying, but more pen. Sure, fine. But as far as actually changing the dynamics of who is using the set or how it is used? Nothing has been done.

Nothing needs done. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Alkosh would need a total rework for it to be beneficial for a DPS to wear it.

That is what ZoSes goal was. To have DPS wear the set by making this change. And in no way does the current change encourage this. For this reason, I think there SHOULD be a total rework of Alkosh rather than this small change. I honestly don't hate the change, but the fact remains that more must be done to get the intended result. So for this reason I still think the Alkosh change should be reverted if the set is not going to be reworked correctly.

Why should it be reverted to its previous iteration when the current one is still overall better, regardless of it still not being optimal for Stam DPS specs?

Calypso589 · August 2020

jesse318sub17_ESO wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

jesse318sub17_ESO wrote: »

Again, I want to reiterate this is not about my CP but about what the changes ZoS is making to Alkosh. All it is doing is making tanks respec their CP and nothing else. I highly doubt this was intentional and it is a problem that should be resolved.

Well that I can agree with, in my previous comment I said that their changes were intended to move the set from being required on tanks to being more optimal on dps as a support set. That much is obvious and they failed there extravagantly, that is the problem that needs to be resolved.

The issue your proposing about respeccing blue CP is not a problem for the majority of players as they will do it once and forget about it..

Tanks who respec frequently for the given content, will still do so to optimze their red CP and although blue CP isn't really necessary to change, they will if they feel they want to optimize for Alkosh. Even then, there is 270 points and only a few stars worth it, beyond 60ish points it's a difference of 1-3% meaning most people will probably spread their points evenly and keep it the same here.

Tanks who don't like respeccing frequently only need to respec once if they want to juice out this set a little. You seriously don't need 100 points in Mighty and Master at Arms to make it function well.

Based on your comment, you already have a ton of free points to spend due to deminishing returns so while it may be an issue for you, your grasping at straws here.

I'm gonna take a guess and say this is what your blue CP looks like:
Blessed: 100 (15% Healing Done)

Elfborn: 81 (24% Spell Crit Healing)

Precise Strikes: 81 (24% Weapon Crit Healing)

Spell Erosion: 4 (413 Spell Penetration (0.82% Mitigation penetrated))

Piercing: 4 (413 Weapon Penetration (0.82% Mitigation penetrated))

What you could go with:
Blessed: 64 (13% Healing Done)

Elfborn: 40 (16% Spell Crit Healing)

Precise Strikes: 40 (16% Weapon Crit Healing)

Spell Erosion: 0

Piercing: 21 (1984 Weapon Penetration (3.968% Mitigation penetrated))

Master at Arms: 56 (20% Direct Damage)

Mighty: 49 (11% Physical/Poison/Disease Damage)

I'm not sure what tanks will actually go with, but this is what I'd do if I were in your position. You're losing 2% healing done and 8% crit healing for another 3% penetration, 20% direct damage and 11% physical damage which should be more than enough to buff Alkosh with some added benefits to your dps, if any.

The actual use case of that crit healing your concerned with is a difference of 1.74x to 1.66x at base, a loss of about 5%, even less if your a Khajiit and/or using the new Shadow Mundus stone... thats if you crit 100% of the time, to which you probably only have 25-35% of meaning that 5% loss is only like 1.5-2% lost.

Again, not to sound rude but I want to repeat that this is not about my CP, it's about what ZoSes change to Alkosh is doing. Which is basically nothing as far as who is going to use it. When I use Alkosh, I now respec my CP to boost the proc damage. Annoying, but more pen. Sure, fine. But as far as actually changing the dynamics of who is using the set or how it is used? Nothing has been done.

Nothing needs done. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Alkosh would need a total rework for it to be beneficial for a DPS to wear it.

jesse318sub17_ESO wrote: »

Well, in case anyone WAS actually curious about my CP since this thread got no attention for it's purpose:

My tanks blue CP before Stonethorn: 100 in Blessed and Elfborn, with 66 in Precise Strikes. The remaining 4 didn't form a jump point and were split evenly between Piercing and Spell Erosion.

My tanks blue CP after Stonethorn: 100 in Blessed and Elfborn, with 66 in Precise Strikes. The remaining 4 didn't form a jump point and were allocated to Piercing.

Result: I changed 2 CP.

Why only two?

Master at Arms, Mighty & Piercing are what buffs Alkosh’s proc.

Definitely don’t need all those points in blessed & elf born.

ajkb78 · September 2020

jesse318sub17_ESO wrote: »

Calypso589 wrote: »

jesse318sub17_ESO wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

jesse318sub17_ESO wrote: »

Again, I want to reiterate this is not about my CP but about what the changes ZoS is making to Alkosh. All it is doing is making tanks respec their CP and nothing else. I highly doubt this was intentional and it is a problem that should be resolved.

Well that I can agree with, in my previous comment I said that their changes were intended to move the set from being required on tanks to being more optimal on dps as a support set. That much is obvious and they failed there extravagantly, that is the problem that needs to be resolved.

The issue your proposing about respeccing blue CP is not a problem for the majority of players as they will do it once and forget about it..

Tanks who respec frequently for the given content, will still do so to optimze their red CP and although blue CP isn't really necessary to change, they will if they feel they want to optimize for Alkosh. Even then, there is 270 points and only a few stars worth it, beyond 60ish points it's a difference of 1-3% meaning most people will probably spread their points evenly and keep it the same here.

Tanks who don't like respeccing frequently only need to respec once if they want to juice out this set a little. You seriously don't need 100 points in Mighty and Master at Arms to make it function well.

Based on your comment, you already have a ton of free points to spend due to deminishing returns so while it may be an issue for you, your grasping at straws here.

I'm gonna take a guess and say this is what your blue CP looks like:
Blessed: 100 (15% Healing Done)

Elfborn: 81 (24% Spell Crit Healing)

Precise Strikes: 81 (24% Weapon Crit Healing)

Spell Erosion: 4 (413 Spell Penetration (0.82% Mitigation penetrated))

Piercing: 4 (413 Weapon Penetration (0.82% Mitigation penetrated))

What you could go with:
Blessed: 64 (13% Healing Done)

Elfborn: 40 (16% Spell Crit Healing)

Precise Strikes: 40 (16% Weapon Crit Healing)

Spell Erosion: 0

Piercing: 21 (1984 Weapon Penetration (3.968% Mitigation penetrated))

Master at Arms: 56 (20% Direct Damage)

Mighty: 49 (11% Physical/Poison/Disease Damage)

I'm not sure what tanks will actually go with, but this is what I'd do if I were in your position. You're losing 2% healing done and 8% crit healing for another 3% penetration, 20% direct damage and 11% physical damage which should be more than enough to buff Alkosh with some added benefits to your dps, if any.

The actual use case of that crit healing your concerned with is a difference of 1.74x to 1.66x at base, a loss of about 5%, even less if your a Khajiit and/or using the new Shadow Mundus stone... thats if you crit 100% of the time, to which you probably only have 25-35% of meaning that 5% loss is only like 1.5-2% lost.

Again, not to sound rude but I want to repeat that this is not about my CP, it's about what ZoSes change to Alkosh is doing. Which is basically nothing as far as who is going to use it. When I use Alkosh, I now respec my CP to boost the proc damage. Annoying, but more pen. Sure, fine. But as far as actually changing the dynamics of who is using the set or how it is used? Nothing has been done.

Nothing needs done. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Alkosh would need a total rework for it to be beneficial for a DPS to wear it.

That is what ZoSes goal was. To have DPS wear the set by making this change. And in no way does the current change encourage this. For this reason, I think there SHOULD be a total rework of Alkosh rather than this small change. I honestly don't hate the change, but the fact remains that more must be done to get the intended result. So for this reason I still think the Alkosh change should be reverted if the set is not going to be reworked correctly.

Citation needed for that being what ZoS's goal was. Just because it's a medium armour set doesn't mean it's aimed at DPS, any more than medusa being a heavy set means it's aimed at tanks.

Alkosh is in a great place for tanking: it's 5 piece is indispensable, and it's medium weight which means it's ideal for getting the undaunted passive with minimal resistance loss. But for balance to stop it becoming ludicrously op, none of the other stats really benefit tanks significantly at all. Weapon damage, minor slayer, weapon crit? Hardly any use at all. Imagine if these were health, armour and mag recovery. What a fantastic set that would be. But ludicrously OP. So yes it gets the great tanking 5 piece that fits perfectly into group pve, and yes it has the advantage of being medium weight, but that has to be balanced with some less appealing traits. Coincidentally (not) they give it some use in PvP. And the change means tanks have to think more about how to use it, whether to spec all in for Alkosh damage or to be more conservative and spec for bigger heals. I think it's a very well thought out tanking set and a very well thought out change.

ajkb78 · September 2020

Edit: deleted duplicate comment

Celestro · September 2020

ajkb78 wrote: »

jesse318sub17_ESO wrote: »

Calypso589 wrote: »

jesse318sub17_ESO wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

jesse318sub17_ESO wrote: »

Again, I want to reiterate this is not about my CP but about what the changes ZoS is making to Alkosh. All it is doing is making tanks respec their CP and nothing else. I highly doubt this was intentional and it is a problem that should be resolved.

Well that I can agree with, in my previous comment I said that their changes were intended to move the set from being required on tanks to being more optimal on dps as a support set. That much is obvious and they failed there extravagantly, that is the problem that needs to be resolved.

The issue your proposing about respeccing blue CP is not a problem for the majority of players as they will do it once and forget about it..

Tanks who respec frequently for the given content, will still do so to optimze their red CP and although blue CP isn't really necessary to change, they will if they feel they want to optimize for Alkosh. Even then, there is 270 points and only a few stars worth it, beyond 60ish points it's a difference of 1-3% meaning most people will probably spread their points evenly and keep it the same here.

Tanks who don't like respeccing frequently only need to respec once if they want to juice out this set a little. You seriously don't need 100 points in Mighty and Master at Arms to make it function well.

Based on your comment, you already have a ton of free points to spend due to deminishing returns so while it may be an issue for you, your grasping at straws here.

I'm gonna take a guess and say this is what your blue CP looks like:
Blessed: 100 (15% Healing Done)

Elfborn: 81 (24% Spell Crit Healing)

Precise Strikes: 81 (24% Weapon Crit Healing)

Spell Erosion: 4 (413 Spell Penetration (0.82% Mitigation penetrated))

Piercing: 4 (413 Weapon Penetration (0.82% Mitigation penetrated))

What you could go with:
Blessed: 64 (13% Healing Done)

Elfborn: 40 (16% Spell Crit Healing)

Precise Strikes: 40 (16% Weapon Crit Healing)

Spell Erosion: 0

Piercing: 21 (1984 Weapon Penetration (3.968% Mitigation penetrated))

Master at Arms: 56 (20% Direct Damage)

Mighty: 49 (11% Physical/Poison/Disease Damage)

I'm not sure what tanks will actually go with, but this is what I'd do if I were in your position. You're losing 2% healing done and 8% crit healing for another 3% penetration, 20% direct damage and 11% physical damage which should be more than enough to buff Alkosh with some added benefits to your dps, if any.

The actual use case of that crit healing your concerned with is a difference of 1.74x to 1.66x at base, a loss of about 5%, even less if your a Khajiit and/or using the new Shadow Mundus stone... thats if you crit 100% of the time, to which you probably only have 25-35% of meaning that 5% loss is only like 1.5-2% lost.

Again, not to sound rude but I want to repeat that this is not about my CP, it's about what ZoSes change to Alkosh is doing. Which is basically nothing as far as who is going to use it. When I use Alkosh, I now respec my CP to boost the proc damage. Annoying, but more pen. Sure, fine. But as far as actually changing the dynamics of who is using the set or how it is used? Nothing has been done.

Nothing needs done. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Alkosh would need a total rework for it to be beneficial for a DPS to wear it.

That is what ZoSes goal was. To have DPS wear the set by making this change. And in no way does the current change encourage this. For this reason, I think there SHOULD be a total rework of Alkosh rather than this small change. I honestly don't hate the change, but the fact remains that more must be done to get the intended result. So for this reason I still think the Alkosh change should be reverted if the set is not going to be reworked correctly.

Citation needed for that being what ZoS's goal was. Just because it's a medium armour set doesn't mean it's aimed at DPS, any more than medusa being a heavy set means it's aimed at tanks.

Alkosh is in a great place for tanking: it's 5 piece is indispensable, and it's medium weight which means it's ideal for getting the undaunted passive with minimal resistance loss. But for balance to stop it becoming ludicrously op, none of the other stats really benefit tanks significantly at all. Weapon damage, minor slayer, weapon crit? Hardly any use at all. Imagine if these were health, armour and mag recovery. What a fantastic set that would be. But ludicrously OP. So yes it gets the great tanking 5 piece that fits perfectly into group pve, and yes it has the advantage of being medium weight, but that has to be balanced with some less appealing traits. Coincidentally (not) they give it some use in PvP. And the change means tanks have to think more about how to use it, whether to spec all in for Alkosh damage or to be more conservative and spec for bigger heals. I think it's a very well thought out tanking set and a very well thought out change.

It being a medium armor set doesn't necessarily lend itself towards being made solely DPS with absolute certainly, sure. However, between looking at the stat bonuses and the specific change made to the 5th piece bonus that is technically optimized best by DPS, you can't honestly say its a tank set. Can it be used by tanks for support purposes so that DPS can actually optimize themselves even further than one DPS wearing it? Yes. That's not the same as saying it was made specifically as a tank set though.

As for Medusa, however, its more akin to how a lot of heavy armor is designed with Weapon Damage bonuses, which has a larger role in PvP. Critical hit chance and critical damage are kind of questionable for that side of the game but still doable. Ultimately, all of its bonuses are damage-based. Its the bonuses that suggest what sets were made for more than anything, not what people end up choosing to use them for.

jesse318sub17_ESO · September 2020

Celestro wrote: »

ajkb78 wrote: »

jesse318sub17_ESO wrote: »

Calypso589 wrote: »

jesse318sub17_ESO wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

jesse318sub17_ESO wrote: »

Again, I want to reiterate this is not about my CP but about what the changes ZoS is making to Alkosh. All it is doing is making tanks respec their CP and nothing else. I highly doubt this was intentional and it is a problem that should be resolved.

Well that I can agree with, in my previous comment I said that their changes were intended to move the set from being required on tanks to being more optimal on dps as a support set. That much is obvious and they failed there extravagantly, that is the problem that needs to be resolved.

The issue your proposing about respeccing blue CP is not a problem for the majority of players as they will do it once and forget about it..

Tanks who respec frequently for the given content, will still do so to optimze their red CP and although blue CP isn't really necessary to change, they will if they feel they want to optimize for Alkosh. Even then, there is 270 points and only a few stars worth it, beyond 60ish points it's a difference of 1-3% meaning most people will probably spread their points evenly and keep it the same here.

Tanks who don't like respeccing frequently only need to respec once if they want to juice out this set a little. You seriously don't need 100 points in Mighty and Master at Arms to make it function well.

Based on your comment, you already have a ton of free points to spend due to deminishing returns so while it may be an issue for you, your grasping at straws here.

I'm gonna take a guess and say this is what your blue CP looks like:
Blessed: 100 (15% Healing Done)

Elfborn: 81 (24% Spell Crit Healing)

Precise Strikes: 81 (24% Weapon Crit Healing)

Spell Erosion: 4 (413 Spell Penetration (0.82% Mitigation penetrated))

Piercing: 4 (413 Weapon Penetration (0.82% Mitigation penetrated))

What you could go with:
Blessed: 64 (13% Healing Done)

Elfborn: 40 (16% Spell Crit Healing)

Precise Strikes: 40 (16% Weapon Crit Healing)

Spell Erosion: 0

Piercing: 21 (1984 Weapon Penetration (3.968% Mitigation penetrated))

Master at Arms: 56 (20% Direct Damage)

Mighty: 49 (11% Physical/Poison/Disease Damage)

I'm not sure what tanks will actually go with, but this is what I'd do if I were in your position. You're losing 2% healing done and 8% crit healing for another 3% penetration, 20% direct damage and 11% physical damage which should be more than enough to buff Alkosh with some added benefits to your dps, if any.

The actual use case of that crit healing your concerned with is a difference of 1.74x to 1.66x at base, a loss of about 5%, even less if your a Khajiit and/or using the new Shadow Mundus stone... thats if you crit 100% of the time, to which you probably only have 25-35% of meaning that 5% loss is only like 1.5-2% lost.

Again, not to sound rude but I want to repeat that this is not about my CP, it's about what ZoSes change to Alkosh is doing. Which is basically nothing as far as who is going to use it. When I use Alkosh, I now respec my CP to boost the proc damage. Annoying, but more pen. Sure, fine. But as far as actually changing the dynamics of who is using the set or how it is used? Nothing has been done.

Nothing needs done. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Alkosh would need a total rework for it to be beneficial for a DPS to wear it.

That is what ZoSes goal was. To have DPS wear the set by making this change. And in no way does the current change encourage this. For this reason, I think there SHOULD be a total rework of Alkosh rather than this small change. I honestly don't hate the change, but the fact remains that more must be done to get the intended result. So for this reason I still think the Alkosh change should be reverted if the set is not going to be reworked correctly.

Citation needed for that being what ZoS's goal was. Just because it's a medium armour set doesn't mean it's aimed at DPS, any more than medusa being a heavy set means it's aimed at tanks.

Alkosh is in a great place for tanking: it's 5 piece is indispensable, and it's medium weight which means it's ideal for getting the undaunted passive with minimal resistance loss. But for balance to stop it becoming ludicrously op, none of the other stats really benefit tanks significantly at all. Weapon damage, minor slayer, weapon crit? Hardly any use at all. Imagine if these were health, armour and mag recovery. What a fantastic set that would be. But ludicrously OP. So yes it gets the great tanking 5 piece that fits perfectly into group pve, and yes it has the advantage of being medium weight, but that has to be balanced with some less appealing traits. Coincidentally (not) they give it some use in PvP. And the change means tanks have to think more about how to use it, whether to spec all in for Alkosh damage or to be more conservative and spec for bigger heals. I think it's a very well thought out tanking set and a very well thought out change.

It being a medium armor set doesn't necessarily lend itself towards being made solely DPS with absolute certainly, sure. However, between looking at the stat bonuses and the specific change made to the 5th piece bonus that is technically optimized best by DPS, you can't honestly say its a tank set. Can it be used by tanks for support purposes so that DPS can actually optimize themselves even further than one DPS wearing it? Yes. That's not the same as saying it was made specifically as a tank set though.

As for Medusa, however, its more akin to how a lot of heavy armor is designed with Weapon Damage bonuses, which has a larger role in PvP. Critical hit chance and critical damage are kind of questionable for that side of the game but still doable. Ultimately, all of its bonuses are damage-based. Its the bonuses that suggest what sets were made for more than anything, not what people end up choosing to use them for.

Thank you, Celestro, for pointing that out. Anyone with common sense can see that Alkosh was intended to be a DPS set. I'm sorry but if you think otherwise you are not really being reasonable. *shrugs* It may be repurposed by tanks for support benefits, but it's unarguably a stam DPS set. However, it is a really cool set, and it's fun to use as a tank.

I don't mind that Alkosh is a powerful tank set. I just think that ZoS needs to define the set more as a DPS set if they're not going to make it an actual tank set, otherwise they have really done nothing. Alkosh was already a poorly designed set. It has allowed tanks to give raids power levels that ZoS never originally intended by providing essentially free pen with no DPS trade off. On top of this, because of the design of the proc Stam DDs typically don't maintain Alkosh uptime as well anyways..

If ZoS doesn't want to own that they intended Alkosh to be worn by a DPS, then they shouldn't make awkward changes that are obviously geared towards encouraging DPS to wear the set, but still leaving tanks using it the exact. same. way. It's nonsensical and counter intuitive. Not only is it a waste of development, it honestly looks pretty disconnected and shoddy on behalf of ZoSes development team... I do respect ZoS and the game they've made for us, but I also don't pretend an awkward, useless change is adequate either.