Rapids is gated behind a medical condition: Anxiety

Syldras · August 2020

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Excuse me, but I don't think I should have to disclose my medical history to anyone online. Especially since I'm the only person you're calling out on this.

You were writing at the beginning of your text that you were an "introvert", nothing about medical issues. I just wanted to point out that there's a difference between introversion and anxiety as a medical condition.

SydneyGrey · August 2020

Katahdin wrote: »

The sky is not falling because it will take a few extra minutes to collect the skyshards in a map in a video game....A VIDEO GAME!
I started playing in beta and leveled my first 2 or 3 characters without rapids. They all got leveled just fine.
With all the real problems in the world going on right now, I can't agree that this is the big deal people are making it out to be.

You might be ok with going slow, but not everyone likes to play Horse Simulator for longer than they need to.
But if you want to see why people are complaining, start a new character and then attempt to do the entire Psijic Skill line without Rapids.
Good luck.

redgreensunset · August 2020

Scouting quests in Cyrodiil. Going to take a while but it's doable and no actual pvp necessary.

Jaimeh · August 2020

I think rapids is more useful for new players, or lowbie alts characters. Usually when levelling to 50, even if it's a future stam toon, one uses both mag and stam skills, especially since most skills start as mag, and there are many mag healing options, but a slow horse is painful. Eventually players will get vigor/caltrops anyway, and to non-PvPers it's a frustrating process regardless, but having rapids first helps a lot, imo. To the OP: you can try gaining AP by just competing scouting missions, or resource capping missions, and also repairing buildings, it will take singinificantly longer than direct engagement in combat, but it's less stressful at least.

MrGhosty · August 2020

I'm curious why this skill is vital? I'm not being sarcastic either, I genuinely am interested in understanding what aspect of this skill makes it so important to have.

Sgrug · August 2020

MrGhosty wrote: »

I'm curious why this skill is vital? I'm not being sarcastic either, I genuinely am interested in understanding what aspect of this skill makes it so important to have.

Time is often the most valued commodity for a person, [snip]

[edited for baiting]

VaranisArano · August 2020

MrGhosty wrote: »

I'm curious why this skill is vital? I'm not being sarcastic either, I genuinely am interested in understanding what aspect of this skill makes it so important to have.

New characters have slow horses. Slooooooow horses. Unless you sunk 60 days into riding speed or bought lessons, you probably have a slow mount on your alts.

This is a PVE problem because ZOS likes to do time-limited events like Harrowstorms and Celebrations that involve grouping up to do World Bosses. Rapids is essential to get there on time. Its also just plain useful anytime you want to move fast like farming, doing writs, the Psijic Order Grand Annual Scavenger Hunt, or meeting that quest-giver who's halfway across the zone.

This is a big PVP problem because it makes leveling up in Cyrodiil very painful. Cyrodiil is a huge zone.
Slow mounts make it harder to join in battles before the keep is captured.
Slow mounts make it harder to get to a flagged keep to defend it.
Slow mounts make it much riskier to travel around the zone, especially if trying to reach quest locations like towns or skyshards.
It basically makes Battlegrounds the most time-efficient way to level the PVP skill lines, which is a problem for a lot of folks. Unlike zerg-surfing in Cyrodiil or finding a friendly guild or PUG to play with, there's no real way to "hide" or take an easy way out in BGs. Its a lot more unforgiving, both in terms of play and deaths, for a new PVPer than Cyrodiil is.

VaranisArano · August 2020

[snip]

Rapids saves time anytime you have to travel on horseback. That's true in PVE and especially true in the vast open spaces of Cyrodiil.

Moreover, ZOS just took away time from players who have to regrind to get Rapids. It takes multiple Battleground matches to earn back the rank or it takes time to grind AP in Cyrodiil and - wait, you guessed it - it also takes longer to get anywhere in the vast open spaces of Cyrodiil (which can lead to missed AP ticks, making it take longer to level). Its a double whammy of ZOS making players spend time to get back something they had.

No wonder its frustrating.

[edited to remove quoted content]

MrGhosty · August 2020

VaranisArano wrote: »

MrGhosty wrote: »

I'm curious why this skill is vital? I'm not being sarcastic either, I genuinely am interested in understanding what aspect of this skill makes it so important to have.

New characters have slow horses. Slooooooow horses. Unless you sunk 60 days into riding speed or bought lessons, you probably have a slow mount on your alts.

This is a PVE problem because ZOS likes to do time-limited events like Harrowstorms and Celebrations that involve grouping up to do World Bosses. Rapids is essential to get there on time. Its also just plain useful anytime you want to move fast like farming, doing writs, the Psijic Order Grand Annual Scavenger Hunt, or meeting that quest-giver who's halfway across the zone.

This is a big PVP problem because it makes leveling up in Cyrodiil very painful. Cyrodiil is a huge zone.
Slow mounts make it harder to join in battles before the keep is captured.
Slow mounts make it harder to get to a flagged keep to defend it.
Slow mounts make it much riskier to travel around the zone, especially if trying to reach quest locations like towns or skyshards.
It basically makes Battlegrounds the most time-efficient way to level the PVP skill lines, which is a problem for a lot of folks. Unlike zerg-surfing in Cyrodiil or finding a friendly guild or PUG to play with, there's no real way to "hide" or take an easy way out in BGs. Its a lot more unforgiving, both in terms of play and deaths, for a new PVPer than Cyrodiil is.

I can see that, it makes sense. I typically make a new toon in advance to give my character time to level their mount speed. Though I've found that just 20 is the point where it isn't quite so painful to run around when trying to complete the same quest for the Nth time. I've not actually needed rapids to reach anything other than Dragons during that particular festival, and then I was grouping with people who did use rapids.

I can totally see the pain point for Cyro though, but there are ways around that particular limitation. The first would be to group with other players who do have rapids and continue on that way. Even with rapids most new players will still be slower than usual though so the second approach that I always used to use was to teleport ahead of zergs. It does mean occasionally missing some points here and there but I felt I made more points with that method than trying to keep up with the fully leveled mounts of the zerg.

I don't particularly like the change myself, I have some toons who benefit and some who don't, but I personally see this akin to when my build gets nerfed so I'm trying to understand other perspectives on the subject.

AlnilamE · August 2020

Eiagra wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

OP, I think the most low-stress way to level Assault would be going to keeps and repairing walls.

When you take a keep and then its resources, the walls "level up" but their current health doesn't go up, which leaves an amount that can be repaired. So if you go to a campaign and start checking the keeps your alliance owns, look at the different wall sections and repair anything that's not at 100%

That will give you AP. If you are wearing sets that increase healing done, that will make things go faster because the game considers you are "healing" the wall.

Another thing you can do is see if you can find a chill group that is going around taking resources. You may find enemy players, but if you all go in with the frame of mind that dying doesn't matter, it might help with anxiety levels.

Finally, this is the slowest way, but getting scouting missions doesn't require you to fight anyone. You just go to a keep/resource, fill out your report, then suicide at the flag to port back to base. But if your alliance doesn't own a lot of the map, this may involve running around A LOT.

Wishing you all the best in your Cyrodiil adventure.

Those are some valuable insights, thank you for providing them. So other than inting BG, repairing walls and scouting are additional possible options for players.

For those who wish to take the scout route, let me ask an additional question -- is it viable to just do these in stealth with no risk of engaging in combat with players? (There's various sets out there that can let you stealth at full speed, reduce stealth cost, etc. to make a semi-perma-stealth build; I've explored these in the past and found them very helpful.)

And for those tuning in, have there been those who suffer from anxiety and found repairing walls and scouting missions to be a good balance of gaining AP and keeping anxiety in check?

You could in theory sneak everywhere, but if your objective is far, it will take a bit. And scouting missions don't give a lot of AP.

If your alliance owns a lot of the map, it will be easier, because you can use the transit system to get very close and then ride or sneak to the location you need to scout.

A lot of the times, you don't meet anyone when you are running around far from the front lines. But a sneak/speed build would be fun to try for that.

zaria · August 2020

Syldras wrote: »

Eiagra wrote: »

I wanted to open discussion for the recent changes to Rapids that has caused some vocal outcry among the community, with the topic being medical in nature. Specifically: the percentage of players who avoid PvP behaviors because it causes or worsens anxiety. This percentage may not be very large, but that doesn't mean these needs are invalid.

I understand the problem. Although, I'm wondering if you can really consider every possible condition and special need when creating game mechanics? There are hundreds of phobias. There are people phobic to spiders, to dogs, to cats. Animals you come across regularly in ESO. I'm afraid you can't design a game that doesn't cause phobic reactions in one person or another? Please don't think I mean it as an offense. I'm just wondering.

As for rapids being locked behind PvP: There are many people who are unhappy with that change, with and without medical reasons. I think it wouldn't be wrong to offer non-PvPers an alternative way to gain that skill.

As I understand spiders is a real problem for many as they are popular enemies in games including ESO.

Now I think the PvP issue for many is more that it feel much more real and personal the fighting other people rater than wiping over an over in an dungeon.

Zerging is basically an raid pug group like you run in normal trials except that chance of wiping is higher mostly, yes had run in nAS would wiped 10 times something

Now in an trial the enemy is known, in PvP you can be hit by an larger and more skilled group from being while sieging and
you wipe hard.

SickleCider · August 2020

Honestly they should have kept Rapids unlocked for those that already had it, regardless of its place in the skill line. Something tells me this may have been a stealth way of nerfing player speed to help performance.

I went in to rank up Assault so I could keep rapids. I avoided PVP because I thought it would be a toxic hellhole. Well, it is a toxic hellhole, but you don't have to put yourself in situations that leave you specifically targeted. Find out where everyone else is and participate. You don't have to be awesome at it. It took me a couple hours to rank it up. Oh, and kill a delve boss in Cyrodiil first. It gives you an AP bonus.

dem0n1k · August 2020

I get the whole anxiety thing & can sympathise... but I don't see why players cannot live without rapids in PVE land. I's just a QoL thing... apart from a few things like Dragons, where in PVE land do you really NEED to be a hurry? In PVP, you do need rapids to get to keeps before the flip.

Eiagra wrote: »

Prior to the change, players who engaged in avoidant behavior to keep anxiety levels from spiking had the option to simply perform the introductory quests or skip them entirely and still get sufficient AP to unlock Rapids. The areas were safe (barring glitches) so a player that wants to gain Rapids to help with overland traversal in other parts of the game can usually acquire it without issue.

Part of the intro to Cyrodiil quest takes you down to the siege training area which is outside of the Bases. If the scroll gates have been opened by the enemy taking the required keeps, then there can be enemy players there. It's not a gltch.

All that being said... I don't support the change to rapids. I think it should ave stayed where it was.

Kwoung · August 2020

[snip] Anyways, my guild goes out once a week to farm AP on alts to get the transmute rewards. We hit alliance rank 2-3 easily in an hour for the members joining for the first time, who are generally only level 14-30. We hardly run into anyone else, we just take two resources and move on to the next keep, sometimes we take the keep as well. Super easy and everyone gets 60-100K AP, qualifying for the level 3 reward tier on every character they bring. Probably the easiest grind in the game. [snip]. Sure PVP sucks in many other games, but it is pretty easy and fun here in ESO. Not to mention there are zero penalties for dying, so what exactly is there to get worked up about?

I am on my 120th run of Arx looking for the dang Inferno Staff, [snip]!

[edited for baiting]

Linaleah · August 2020

SeaUnicorn wrote: »

You can AFK in BGs and still get AP. You can also repair walls in Cyrodiil. There are ways to get AP and avoid any action.

hey. did you know that anxiety can and often does start BEFORE you undertake the action. that the act of queueing up alone can push you into a panic attack? because that is a thing that can and does happen with anxiety.

don't confuse being nervous over not knowing what to do or whatever, with anxiety as a medical condition.

Kwoung · August 2020

I also hit CP 300 something and had leveled 6 alts before I ever even heard of Rapids, so its not like its a requirement. It is strictly a QOL thing you don't actually need, so no reason to stress about it.

Beardimus · August 2020

It's easy enough to earn the AP needed.

You could repair walls faster that it takes to tour PvE for mages guild books

Syldras · August 2020

zaria wrote: »

Now I think the PvP issue for many is more that it feel much more real and personal the fighting other people rater than wiping over an over in an dungeon.

I'm wondering: Is it the interaction with people itself which causes the problem? Or is it rather knowing that there are jerks who might verbally abuse you? (Or rather: Not knowing if you might run into such people?)

LadySinflower · August 2020

I am not trying to downplay anyone's anxiety, and I am a player who avoids PvP like the plague because I'm simply not competitive. I don't enjoy competing against other players for anything. I've been playing about two years and have maxed my assault skill line to 10. Without doing any PvP except going into Cyrodiil during events and doing enough quests to earn event tickets. I go in late at night when the map is pretty much empty. Run a scouting quest and/or a couple of town quests. Usually encounter nobody except a few other players in my zone gate areas. There have been a couple of occasions when an opposing player spotted me. They ran over and I just let them kill me. Then I respawned at my gate and it was a bit inconvenient, but not a big deal. I myself have not engaged in active PvP; only accidental PvP when I couldn't avoid it. This change is really awful for those who consider rapids to be necessary. Personally I never use it because I'm happy with the speed my horse goes while sprinting. But rest assured, even if your involvement in Cyrodiil activities is minimal, eventually you will level up that skill line enough to get your rapids back. I hate this change too, but am only trying to offer a little reassurance.

Beardimus · August 2020

Syldras wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Now I think the PvP issue for many is more that it feel much more real and personal the fighting other people rater than wiping over an over in an dungeon.

I'm wondering: Is it the interaction with people itself which causes the problem? Or is it rather knowing that there are jerks who might verbally abuse you? (Or rather: Not knowing if you might run into such people?)

Can't be the later as that could happen anywhere.
Why do people propigate this view that PvP is filled with sociopaths.

I've seen more inclusivity from the PvP crew than I have end game PvEers

Kwoung · August 2020

Syldras wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Now I think the PvP issue for many is more that it feel much more real and personal the fighting other people rater than wiping over an over in an dungeon.

I'm wondering: Is it the interaction with people itself which causes the problem? Or is it rather knowing that there are jerks who might verbally abuse you? (Or rather: Not knowing if you might run into such people?)

Honestly, Undaunted Pledges with a PUG are the most toxic thing this game offers, everything else is trivial, including PVP.

nukk3r · August 2020

Beardimus wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Now I think the PvP issue for many is more that it feel much more real and personal the fighting other people rater than wiping over an over in an dungeon.

I'm wondering: Is it the interaction with people itself which causes the problem? Or is it rather knowing that there are jerks who might verbally abuse you? (Or rather: Not knowing if you might run into such people?)

Can't be the later as that could happen anywhere.
Why do people propigate this view that PvP is filled with sociopaths.

I've seen more inclusivity from the PvP crew than I have end game PvEers

This. I've met a fair amount of toxic players and psychopaths in a casual social guild but none in PvP guilds.

abigfishy · August 2020

Kwoung wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Now I think the PvP issue for many is more that it feel much more real and personal the fighting other people rater than wiping over an over in an dungeon.

I'm wondering: Is it the interaction with people itself which causes the problem? Or is it rather knowing that there are jerks who might verbally abuse you? (Or rather: Not knowing if you might run into such people?)

Honestly, Undaunted Pledges with a PUG are the most toxic thing this game offers, everything else is trivial, including PVP.

I have done hundreds of undaunted pledges with a PUG, the top issue there is fake tanks/healers. Toxic players are about one a week. I have done some battlegrounds and toxic players there are about one per two games.

SilverBride · August 2020

I never even heard of rapids until these threads started popping up. It's not necessary for enjoying the game.

Syldras · August 2020

Kwoung wrote: »

Honestly, Undaunted Pledges with a PUG are the most toxic thing this game offers, everything else is trivial, including PVP.

You can group with people you know. In PvP, you can't avoid unknown players.

[snip]

How would I know if I don't PvP? (Or at least extremely rarely. Not because of anxiety, but because I just don't care for PvP. I've entered Cyrodiil a few times for skyshards and then left again, and that was it until now). But they can still whisper you in PvP areas, or not? I've heard people complaining about other players harassing them in chat after a fight more than once.

Exactly this is what made me wonder: Do people who avoid PvP for anxiety reasons avoid human contact altogether, or is it because they fear abusive behavior? No matter how probable it is or not, the question for me is, what exactly causes the anxiety. "It isn't that bad!" and "Elsewhere it's worse!" from people who haven't got that medical condition doesn't answer that question.

[edited to remove quote]

tplink3r1 · August 2020

Eiagra wrote: »

Hey folks.

I wanted to open discussion for the recent changes to Rapids that has caused some vocal outcry among the community, with the topic being medical in nature. Specifically: the percentage of players who avoid PvP behaviors because it causes or worsens anxiety. This percentage may not be very large, but that doesn't mean these needs are invalid.

Prior to the change, players who engaged in avoidant behavior to keep anxiety levels from spiking had the option to simply perform the introductory quests or skip them entirely and still get sufficient AP to unlock Rapids. The areas were safe (barring glitches) so a player that wants to gain Rapids to help with overland traversal in other parts of the game can usually acquire it without issue.

After the change, players now must engage in PvP behaviors to effectively gain the ability. I've observed some suggestions that indicate there may be ways to gain the ability without directly engaging in those behaviors (such as intentionally throwing Battlegrounds matches), but I'm not yet sure of their efficacy. It's technically possible to unlock them on alts with a 3000 crown purchase in the Crown Store, but you need to have fully unlocked them on another character first (forcing the player to engage in PvP behaviors in addition to having a monetary cost).

This discussion sets the precedent that Rapids is used for overland traversal, not for PvP -- in other words, it's used significantly in PvE as well.

For those players who experience anxiety when performing PvP behaviors, what are your thoughts on the change? Does the change prevent you from gaining the ability on your primary character due to the PvP engagement requirements? For your alts? Have you found a way to gain the ability in a manner that circumvents situations that cause anxiety? Did this turn into a wall, or were you able to break through it? If distress was caused, to what degree did you experience it? If you broke through it, do you have any tips to help other players who may have a similar condition?

I know this is an emotionally-charged topic, but let's try keep this discussion mindful, respectful, productive, and stay within the scope of what impact it has had on a specific segment of the community with a specific medical condition.

I always knew that people who hate pvp tend to have anxiety, but people always said i was wrong.
Anxiety is a problem YOU should overcome, don't expect the world to be shaped around your mental health problem.

spartaxoxo · August 2020

While that may be true, those same are also now able to make any build they wish and still be independent rather than perhaps feeling stuck with Magicka toons.

spartaxoxo · August 2020

@Eiagra

Yes. You can build to max out stealth and then fill out your scouting report while invisible. I don't really enjoy pvp much in this game, though I do in others, and I this works just fine. I won't say there is no possibility of death but it is very small.

The sets that reduce detection radius are the following, although I'm unsure if they work pvp....

Night Mother's Embrace (5/5)
Night Terror (3/5)
Vesture of Darloc Brae (4/5)

Syldras · August 2020

tplink3r1 wrote: »

I always knew that people who hate pvp tend to have anxiety, but people always said i was wrong.

There are different reasons not to PvP. Some might be anxious. Some might just not care to spend hours just fighting with random persons without having a real storyline. Some are just completely anti-social. And some are easily annoyed or tired by interaction with other people, especially if they're stupid little... nevermind.

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Anxiety is a problem YOU should overcome, don't expect the world to be shaped around your mental health problem.

What exactly are you losing if other people would get the possibility to unlock rapids without PvPing?

Fur_like_snow · August 2020

Buy up some cheap sets of cowards gear and hold down that shift key. Wild hunt ring is an option along with Orc sprint passive.