Rapids at rank 5 creates a Catch-22

This_0ne · August 2020

Ratinira wrote: »

bmnoble wrote: »

Just make both skills available at rank 1 problem solved is that so hard.

That won't solve the problem of riding lessons sales😉

the solution to this problem is to reduce the price by half

Wing · August 2020

wanting a band aid to the core issue made accessible does not fix the core issues of:

-horse speed for new characters is balls
-Cyrodill as a horse simulator is similar balls

i would rather see these ^^^ issues fixed, rather then a skill you have to slot to help alleviate the issue in the first place.

off the top of my head, make major gallop just be in effect on all mounts in cyrodill.

MilitiaMasterV · August 2020

kargen27 wrote: »

The reason they do this is for the long term health of the game. The game needs players to repeat content and to participate in a variety of content to continue to succeed. That is why some of the best gear for PvP is locked behind PvE content and why some good skills for PvE is locked behind pvP content. They want you playing different aspects of the game. Sometimes this leads a player to try something they might otherwise not try and they find out they like it. That is what happened in my case.

Kind of silly of them to do something that just got rid of one then. I came over to this game after a free trial period around November of last year, enjoyed aspects enough to do a digital purchase of the game, and eventually tossed a year down for ESO+/another upgrade to the account that gave access to more...but after being around for awhile, and seeing some of the things they did I'd been losing interest.

It's like certain decisions are being made that are taking game design in the wrong direction to hope for little bits of money from people, whereas when you entertain someone, and DON'T put roadblocks in their way, they are more likely to spend money on your product.

Personally, I had misgivings when I saw the stable system, and almost didn't, but I was enjoying the ability to sneak around/thieving so much that I was playing a ton, and thought there was enough to keep me going....now I kind of regret my decision after seeing all the things they put in to roadblock you like horse stumbling, load windows that take way too long, and are in odd areas purposely intended to slow you down...(If you do any of the thieves guild and do the pickpocketing missions, you'd see what I mean, because it's a load into zone + load into thieves area every single time, and that's just a complete waste of your paid for time...but then having to do all of it again on a new alt...over and over again. Pointless.), and numerous other obstacles arbitrarily put in your way just to disrupt your fun...

But this? Taking something away that you only even had access to if you got the right daily rewards to get alliance war unlocked...(I'm pure PvE, and have 7 of the 9 character slots I'm allowed filled with all but 2 max levels, I will never ever touch PvP in games anymore, because I had enough sampling of it over the years from other games and I don't care for it because I already have issues with anger management in real life, and I prefer to stay 'zen'.), that's like throwing it in your face that you worked on something, and 'Pft, you can't have it anymore'.

Well, guess what...'Pft, you can't have my money anymore.'...I went and removed my payment info. So, please, tell me more about how they are doing such wonderful things to improve upon the 'long term health of the game' by pushing actual paying players away...(Which seems to be a very common theme among game designers of late...who ignore their paying players, hoping to gain one or two 'whales' hooked...)

This is my first, and may be my last, comment on these boards. (It was actually a pain to gain access to these boards...I am a paying member, and I requested access, but their website screwed up and would never send the code, so I had to go in-game and write a ticket, and get them to EMAIL me, and even that, took the better part of a month.)

This is not how you win customers...

Intha1313 · August 2020

CheeseyNugs wrote: »

[snip] I have maxed assault and support skill lines across 6 of my toons that I’m not even super active on, it really isn’t that hard and it really doesn’t take that long. I’d also like to add that vigor is a lot more of an important skill than rapids in terms of actual character strength and viability [snip]

Four hours, in a busy group, below 50 Cyro ...... but keep saying it doesn't take that long and people should stop being lazy.

Cerotonin · August 2020

Why don’t they just make the skills unlock on the same level? Like what is there to really lose? Lol

npuk · August 2020

I think it's a good balance change and it really doesn't take that long to get to level 5 in cyro.

Donny_Vito · August 2020

jcmlongb16_ESO wrote: »

I think it's a good balance change and it really doesn't take that long to get to level 5 in cyro.

Yep. Going faster was more of a luxury to bypass the ZoS landscape as quickly as possible, but getting heals via Vigor is more of a necessity for stam players.

Gythral · August 2020

Donny_Vito wrote: »

jcmlongb16_ESO wrote: »

I think it's a good balance change and it really doesn't take that long to get to level 5 in cyro.

Yep. Going faster was more of a luxury to bypass the ZoS landscape as quickly as possible, but getting heals via Vigor is more of a necessity for stam players.

14x "I've got to do that again" too long

& there is no "Catch-22" only a crown store

npuk · August 2020

Donny_Vito wrote: »

jcmlongb16_ESO wrote: »

I think it's a good balance change and it really doesn't take that long to get to level 5 in cyro.

Yep. Going faster was more of a luxury to bypass the ZoS landscape as quickly as possible, but getting heals via Vigor is more of a necessity for stam players.

Exactly, and you can get rapids off another player so its not like you cant go super fast.

Gythral · August 2020

jcmlongb16_ESO wrote: »

Donny_Vito wrote: »

jcmlongb16_ESO wrote: »

I think it's a good balance change and it really doesn't take that long to get to level 5 in cyro.

Yep. Going faster was more of a luxury to bypass the ZoS landscape as quickly as possible, but getting heals via Vigor is more of a necessity for stam players.

Exactly, and you can get rapids off another player so its not like you cant go super fast.

Only if you are already close to the group!

again
Being a stam char that NEEDs vigor is a choice, being a slug is mandatory!

Donny_Vito · August 2020

Gythral wrote: »

Donny_Vito wrote: »

jcmlongb16_ESO wrote: »

I think it's a good balance change and it really doesn't take that long to get to level 5 in cyro.

Yep. Going faster was more of a luxury to bypass the ZoS landscape as quickly as possible, but getting heals via Vigor is more of a necessity for stam players.

14x "I've got to do that again" too long

& there is no "Catch-22" only a crown store

Look, I totally understand. The same argument was being made for years when Stam playes, who hated PvP, had to go through the grind to get the skill they needed to survive, not just to go a little bit faster while on a horse.

Luckylancer · August 2020

All new chracters needs rapids to go around map and farm skill points. I never travel in overland without rapids, never.

Rapids allow you to farm AP faster for levrl 5 and make cyrodiil less boring, unless you love horse simulators.

This new change is just another TERRIBLE desicion by ZoS that gonna make game worse. No one gonna start playing PvP after they grind lvl5 with slow horse and suboptimal PvP build. People gonna hate PvP more.

Sgrug · August 2020

Luckylancer wrote: »

All new chracters needs rapids to go around map and farm skill points. I never travel in overland without rapids, never.

Rapids allow you to farm AP faster for levrl 5 and make cyrodiil less boring, unless you love horse simulators.

This new change is just another TERRIBLE desicion by ZoS that gonna make game worse. No one gonna start playing PvP after they grind lvl5 with slow horse and suboptimal PvP build. People gonna hate PvP more.

Exactly the experience I had yesterday 6 hours in PVP and I used to be a big PVP player in 2015.2016. Yesterday's experience has totally turned me off to PVP it was so frustrating I hate the very thought of it now.

markulrich1966 · August 2020

in cyro the best way will be to use the wayshrines to travel to captured keeps, and help taking back the resources.

I have 16 toons on (xbox) EU and NA each, all have minimum assault 3 or 4.
They are PVE only players, so I used this strategy 2-3 times to farm transmutation crystals.
It still will be timeconsuming though, expect 1-2 hours per level and toon if you occasionally can be around when a keep is taken, too.

Elsonso · August 2020

This_0ne wrote: »

Want say few words: I use rapid maneur on all my 11 twin chars. Only 1 of 11 use vigor and that my main char. -_- Facepalm!

That is interesting. I only use it in Cyrodiil, and then only when needed. Otherwise, it is not slotted. I tried to use it on my farming characters, but it is really a pain in the hindquarters to use. I prefer passive speed boosts, not active ones.

Meanwhile, as I take a Stamina character off the bench and warm it up I have been heading to Cyrodiil to get Vigor because it is needed more now than it used to be. I don't like Vigor, not even a little, but it is better than a kick in the head.

Ratinira · August 2020

Intha1313 wrote: »

CheeseyNugs wrote: »

[snip] I have maxed assault and support skill lines across 6 of my toons that I’m not even super active on, it really isn’t that hard and it really doesn’t take that long. I’d also like to add that vigor is a lot more of an important skill than rapids in terms of actual character strength and viability [snip]

Four hours, in a busy group, below 50 Cyro ...... but keep saying it doesn't take that long and people should stop being lazy.

Well, it depends what "long" is. May be if you play 12+ hours a day, for example, 4 hours is not long at all. Just third of the day.
If you play 4 hours a week it will take you a week. A week of doing something you never wanted to do...

Elvenheart · August 2020

In my very humble opinion, they should have just moved rapids to slot 1 of the support line and put vigor in slot 1 of the assault line. Or moved vigor to slot 1 of the support line. Either way, all of this would have been a non-issue and people would have been happy.

TineaCruris · August 2020

This ended up being a truly horrible change. It seems as though it was done to discourage people from leveling alts quickly, and to force people to purchase more mount upgrades from crown store.

This feels like an underhanded, unnecessary change.

CaffeinatedMayhem · August 2020

Battlegrounds levels the Alliance War skill line. So you can always just do BGs until you get to rank 5... which is really easy.

etchedpixels · August 2020

BGs seem to the best option speedwise, and if you have a few beers first and treat is a laugh it's not quite so tediously boring.

Still a bad game change IMHO.

TineaCruris · August 2020

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

Battlegrounds levels the Alliance War skill line. So you can always just do BGs until you get to rank 5... which is really easy.

..not if the toon is being leveled from 3-50 and you want rapids.

TineaCruris · August 2020

etchedpixels wrote: »

BGs seem to the best option speedwise, and if you have a few beers first and treat is a laugh it's not quite so tediously boring.

Still a bad game change IMHO.

Every toon I lost rapids on are alts under level 50. Can't take those toons to BG's. No choice but to level them before they can get rapids now.

This is a blatant effort to create sales of mount upgrades from the crown store.

Noisivid · August 2020

TineaCruris wrote: »

etchedpixels wrote: »

BGs seem to the best option speedwise, and if you have a few beers first and treat is a laugh it's not quite so tediously boring.

Still a bad game change IMHO.

Every toon I lost rapids on are alts under level 50. Can't take those toons to BG's. No choice but to level them before they can get rapids now.

This is a blatant effort to create sales of mount upgrades from the crown store.

you can take an under level 50 character into battlegrounds.

I just spent about 4 1/2 hours grinding back to Rapids on my baby stam-cro. now level 37. It didn't help that the que this morning was about 15 minutes long, so 2 battlegrounds in an hour. The ques last night were about 4 minutes so if I'd been able to do it all then it would have been just over 4 hours. (the que time counts)

one down, 11 or 12 characters to go...

CaffeinatedMayhem · August 2020

Noisivid wrote: »

you can take an under level 50 character into battlegrounds.

Yep! There are Under 50 BGs, which are the best IMO. Any toon over level 10 can go into BGs! Plus you'll still have battle scaling.

EDIT: And unlike Cyro, you get AP for every BG completed, you don't even have to win. So BGs are even easier for leveling Alliance War.

slasb16_ESO · August 2020

An update. I got to Rank 5 this morning in about 90 mins in Cyrodiil. At level 14, Nightblade, EP, with a horsespeed=2, I went to Gray Host and got it done. First thing I did was go to a delve for the Blessing of War. Fortunately, EP was pressing for a scroll so we took 4 or 5 keeps. Had to ride between keeps every time, which was painful. Of course, in Cyrodiil at level 14 you actually have decent survivability due to scaling. I think I died once, maybe twice.

For me, Cyrodiil is the best part of ESO and Rapids needs to be Rank 1 for everyone to enjoy that part of the game. Vigor and Rapids are in the pvp skill line. Either move them to a pve skill line or leave them working as intended.

Smohk · August 2020

Ok ZOS, I highly disagree with this change, but since u gave me a heal I'll (as a PVE player) take advantage of it and stand in besieged outposts and keeps and spam it around others to get AP for rapids, then chalk this up as bad sex.

johnebrown · August 2020

Gythral wrote: »

jcmlongb16_ESO wrote: »

Donny_Vito wrote: »

jcmlongb16_ESO wrote: »

I think it's a good balance change and it really doesn't take that long to get to level 5 in cyro.

Yep. Going faster was more of a luxury to bypass the ZoS landscape as quickly as possible, but getting heals via Vigor is more of a necessity for stam players.

Exactly, and you can get rapids off another player so its not like you cant go super fast.

Only if you are already close to the group!

again
Being a stam char that NEEDs vigor is a choice, being a slug is mandatory!

LMAO

abigfishy · August 2020

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

slasb16_ESO wrote: »

Rapids at Assault rank 1 had been in place since beta. The reason it was put there was because Cyrodiil is a MASSIVE zone and you needed it to get anywhere.

The Catch-22 is this. To get Rapids I need to get to rank 5, but to get to rank 5 I need to get to the fight and I can't get there in a timely manner without rapids. In the <50 campaign at level 12, Cyrodiil is all but unplayable.

Okay umm no I’m so tried of seeing this from PvE player that clearly never PvPed you can teleport to keeps before they are flagged you get A LOT OF WARNING IN ZONE CHAT you know where the fight will be and can just pop in before in flags most fights are 15-20 minutes long and good back and forth it doesn’t take anywhere near that to RUN from one keep to another.

Stamina characters need a good heal if they don’t have class stamina heals you NEED to ride faster it just helps.

Okay umm no I'm so tired of seeing this from PvP players that clearly don't remember what it was like to be new to PvP. You ever so slowly ride to the keep (because you didn't have rapids) then see the farm is under attack so you ride to the farm, it is captured just before you get there (because you didn't have rapids), you ride to the lumber mill and miss the battle there (because you didn't have rapids) but you dont linger and ride straight to the mine which you unfortunately miss by seconds (because you didn't have rapids). Don't worry you will be there for the main seige. You knock down the walls, run under the flag and...

ERROR 38
"You have been dropped from the server because you hit the message rate limit."

Even though you never sent a single message.

When you relog it is all over, you have been kicked from your group which is now full and you got a total of 0AP in the last 40 minutes.

That my friend is Catch 22.

Zer0_CooL · August 2020

You could just buy the skilline

Nicole94 · September 2020

TwinLamps wrote: »

On the other hand if you have any character with AvA skills at 10 you can just buy the skillines from crown store

I did that once, would have done it again. I will NEVER do it now. I am not happy with them just dropping this on us, but more so I am disappointed they have not responded with ANY comment, other than acting like a parental figure and telling us all to play nice in the forums. The moderators have allowed this conversation to become insulting with people pro-swap and anti-swap fighting in the forums with completely fruitless conversations about what this or that should be, has been or whatever. They will probably remove this post too, or snip out truthful points.

The Truth? They didn't think this through, OR they have a reason and do not respect their fanbase enough to share that reason.
I work in IT, change is SELDOM a great thing that all love, but I have found explaining the situation to clients almost ALWAYS results in at least acceptance, if not a positive outcome. Ignore a client and you will lose a customer and by the time word or mouth or reviews circulate you are hemorrhaging clients.

I have played since 3/2/14. I have been averaging over $50 a month for this game I loved. It is not that the skill was removed, it was the complete and TOTAL lack of respect they have given the community that has supported them through good times and bad.