Rapids at rank 5 creates a Catch-22

slasb16_ESO · August 2020

Rapids at Assault rank 1 had been in place since beta. The reason it was put there was because Cyrodiil is a MASSIVE zone and you needed it to get anywhere.

The Catch-22 is this. To get Rapids I need to get to rank 5, but to get to rank 5 I need to get to the fight and I can't get there in a timely manner without rapids. In the <50 campaign at level 12, Cyrodiil is all but unplayable.

ZaroktheImmortal · August 2020

Yep, exactly this. The skill that helps you get around cyrodil to level alliance skill line you now have to level the skill line more to get so it's....yeah

Reverb · August 2020

Ah, you want to pvp? Sorry, being able to use pvp skills for pvp isn’t factored into the decision. This change was to make it easier for pve players avoid pvp.

BisDasBlutGefriert · August 2020

Next, they won't let your character run or cast more than 3 skills in 60 seconds...without spending real money on crowns. The ability to cast five skills in 60 seconds will be the first upgrade. Jogging, not running, will be the 5k crown upgrade for that skill line...(sigh)

trackdemon5512 · August 2020

The answer is simple. This change forces you into battlegrounds. Because let’s be honest the BG population numbers aren’t healthy at all. This forces new characters to participate (which sucks because honestly BGs are just off).

Elsonso · August 2020

slasb16_ESO wrote: »

Rapids at Assault rank 1 had been in place since beta. The reason it was put there was because Cyrodiil is a MASSIVE zone and you needed it to get anywhere.

The Catch-22 is this. To get Rapids I need to get to rank 5, but to get to rank 5 I need to get to the fight and I can't get there in a timely manner without rapids. In the <50 campaign at level 12, Cyrodiil is all but unplayable.

I got Vigor in Cyrodiil [before this update] without using Rapid Maneuvers.

Jacozilla · August 2020

BisDasBlutGefriert wrote: »

Next, they won't let your character run or cast more than 3 skills in 60 seconds...without spending real money on crowns. The ability to cast five skills in 60 seconds will be the first upgrade. Jogging, not running, will be the 5k crown upgrade for that skill line...(sigh)

they already did this.

rapid maneuvers used to last 30+ seconds, but then zos decided can't let players have that kind of quality of life, so nerfed it to make it longer term only for riding mounts - on foot it's a non-sustainable skill now unless you're stam or have a large stam pool on mag char.

at some point, i fully expect rapids for mounts to also be nerfed to some bizarre 8 sec duration or whatever.

Linaleah · August 2020

Reverb wrote: »

Ah, you want to pvp? Sorry, being able to use pvp skills for pvp isn’t factored into the decision. This change was to make it easier for pve players avoid pvp.

oh stuff it. judging by the forums, most people who were using rapids were pve players. this change was made to sell more mount training books and/or the upcoming two sitter mount.

bmnoble · August 2020

Just make both skills available at rank 1 problem solved is that so hard.

Elsonso · August 2020

bmnoble wrote: »

Just make both skills available at rank 1 problem solved is that so hard.

Actually, they should not be holding Vigor out for PVE characters like some sort of carrot to get them into PVP. No one playing PVE should feel they have to go to PVP for skills. What Vigor does should be available as a skill that can be obtained outside of Cyrodiil.

SteveCampsOut · August 2020

So now I know what skill points were given back... <sigh>

AlnilamE · August 2020

Elsonso wrote: »

bmnoble wrote: »

Just make both skills available at rank 1 problem solved is that so hard.

Actually, they should not be holding Vigor out for PVE characters like some sort of carrot to get them into PVP. No one playing PVE should feel they have to go to PVP for skills. What Vigor does should be available as a skill that can be obtained outside of Cyrodiil.

Well, now you only need to talk to a couple of NPCs in Cyrodiil to get it. Or wait for AP as a login reward, because that's enough to unlock it too.

ZaroktheImmortal · August 2020

Reverb wrote: »

Ah, you want to pvp? Sorry, being able to use pvp skills for pvp isn’t factored into the decision. This change was to make it easier for pve players avoid pvp.

Except it doesn't since a lot of pvers use it as well.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · August 2020

slasb16_ESO wrote: »

Rapids at Assault rank 1 had been in place since beta. The reason it was put there was because Cyrodiil is a MASSIVE zone and you needed it to get anywhere.

The Catch-22 is this. To get Rapids I need to get to rank 5, but to get to rank 5 I need to get to the fight and I can't get there in a timely manner without rapids. In the <50 campaign at level 12, Cyrodiil is all but unplayable.

Okay umm no I’m so tried of seeing this from PvE player that clearly never PvPed you can teleport to keeps before they are flagged you get A LOT OF WARNING IN ZONE CHAT you know where the fight will be and can just pop in before in flags most fights are 15-20 minutes long and good back and forth it doesn’t take anywhere near that to RUN from one keep to another.

Stamina characters need a good heal if they don’t have class stamina heals you NEED to ride faster it just helps.

slasb16_ESO · August 2020

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Okay umm no I’m so tried of seeing this from PvE player that clearly never PvPed you can teleport to keeps before they are flagged you get A LOT OF WARNING IN ZONE CHAT you know where the fight will be and can just pop in before in flags most fights are 15-20 minutes long and good back and forth it doesn’t take anywhere near that to RUN from one keep to another.

Stamina characters need a good heal if they don’t have class stamina heals you NEED to ride faster it just helps.

You can't teleport to a keep your side is attacking, obviously, and, when defending, often a keep or outpost flags before you can get to the transit. It's one thing if your horse has 60 speed, but it's quite another in <50 campaign where mount speeds are usually less than 10 and often 1 or 2.

Also, everyone can benefit from Rapids. In fact for opening up zone wayshrines and skyshards, etc. it's virtually essential. But only a few builds require Vigor. Magika builds don't need it, and Stamina DK and Templar don't need it either.

Rapids is necessary for Cyrodiil. Vigor should be moved to Fighters Guild or Undaunted.

CheeseyNugs · August 2020

[snip] I have maxed assault and support skill lines across 6 of my toons that I’m not even super active on, it really isn’t that hard and it really doesn’t take that long. I’d also like to add that vigor is a lot more of an important skill than rapids in terms of actual character strength and viability [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Pevey · August 2020

The people at zos who might actually see these complaints are people who likely agree with us. But the people who answer to the shareholders finally figured out that they don’t sell as many riding lessons as they perhaps could for brand new toons because there is this easily accessible speed boost. So they made it less easily accessible. All of your logical arguments as to why it makes no gameplay sense are both correct and, unfortunately, irrelevant.

kargen27 · August 2020

Elsonso wrote: »

bmnoble wrote: »

Just make both skills available at rank 1 problem solved is that so hard.

Actually, they should not be holding Vigor out for PVE characters like some sort of carrot to get them into PVP. No one playing PVE should feel they have to go to PVP for skills. What Vigor does should be available as a skill that can be obtained outside of Cyrodiil.

The reason they do this is for the long term health of the game. The game needs players to repeat content and to participate in a variety of content to continue to succeed. That is why some of the best gear for PvP is locked behind PvE content and why some good skills for PvE is locked behind pvP content. They want you playing different aspects of the game. Sometimes this leads a player to try something they might otherwise not try and they find out they like it. That is what happened in my case.

OldManJim · August 2020

CheeseyNugs wrote: »

[snip] I have maxed assault and support skill lines across 6 of my toons that I’m not even super active on, it really isn’t that hard and it really doesn’t take that long. I’d also like to add that vigor is a lot more of an important skill than rapids in terms of actual character strength and viability [snip]

It's nothing to do with laziness. It's about having a skill that we use being taken from us & having to grind for hours per toon in areas that many of us hate in order to get it back.

Imagine if the shoe was on the other foot & Vigor was being taken from you to give everybody access to Rapids. Would you be telling everybody to "get over it it's really not that bad lol"?

FrancisCrawford · August 2020

Elsonso wrote: »

slasb16_ESO wrote: »

Rapids at Assault rank 1 had been in place since beta. The reason it was put there was because Cyrodiil is a MASSIVE zone and you needed it to get anywhere.

The Catch-22 is this. To get Rapids I need to get to rank 5, but to get to rank 5 I need to get to the fight and I can't get there in a timely manner without rapids. In the <50 campaign at level 12, Cyrodiil is all but unplayable.

I got Vigor in Cyrodiil [before this update] without using Rapid Maneuvers.

On how many different characters?

FrancisCrawford · August 2020

CheeseyNugs wrote: »

[snip] I have maxed assault and support skill lines across 6 of my toons that I’m not even super active on, it really isn’t that hard and it really doesn’t take that long. I’d also like to add that vigor is a lot more of an important skill than rapids in terms of actual character strength and viability [snip]

Why only six? And did those six characters have fast horses?

FrancisCrawford · August 2020

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Okay umm no I’m so tried of seeing this from PvE player that clearly never PvPed you can teleport to keeps before they are flagged you get A LOT OF WARNING IN ZONE CHAT you know where the fight will be and can just pop in before in flags most fights are 15-20 minutes long and good back and forth it doesn’t take anywhere near that to RUN from one keep to another.
.

This discussion is difficult enough without false claims like yours.

Many times the first indication that a keep will be under attack is that fact that it ... has come under attack. And the times it is most predictable which of your keeps will be attacked next are exactly those when the enemy is rolling and there is little chance your defense will succeed.

Further, i your claim about back-and-forth fights were true, fewer people would complain about "PvDoor".

Your ideaized dream of Cyrodiil PvP is the exception in actual Cyrodiil reality.

Ratinira · August 2020

bmnoble wrote: »

Just make both skills available at rank 1 problem solved is that so hard.

That won't solve the problem of riding lessons sales😉

OmniDo · August 2020

I have 11 characters.
I had rapids on all of them.
Now I have rapids on TWO of them.
That means I now have to grind 9 characters to Rank 5 in PVP.

As another posted said: "Stuff you too." ZOS.

Mortiis13 · August 2020

Elsonso wrote: »

bmnoble wrote: »

Just make both skills available at rank 1 problem solved is that so hard.

Actually, they should not be holding Vigor out for PVE characters like some sort of carrot to get them into PVP. No one playing PVE should feel they have to go to PVP for skills. What Vigor does should be available as a skill that can be obtained outside of Cyrodiil.

When why I'm, as a pvp player, forced to go into dungeons (undaunted passives, gear), farm books or undeads(mage/fighter guild) or had to grind the..... quest line ever made in the history of mankind(Psijic) and need to farm skyshards (u know the cyrodiil ones aren't enough) for my pvp build.

As a pvp player I had to spend more time in pve, then vice versa.

Noisivid · August 2020

Elsonso wrote: »

bmnoble wrote: »

Just make both skills available at rank 1 problem solved is that so hard.

Actually, they should not be holding Vigor out for PVE characters like some sort of carrot to get them into PVP. No one playing PVE should feel they have to go to PVP for skills. What Vigor does should be available as a skill that can be obtained outside of Cyrodiil.

none of the classses should be dependent on a non-class skill for anything; heals, dps, whatever. This is a failure of ZoSs

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

slasb16_ESO wrote: »

Rapids at Assault rank 1 had been in place since beta. The reason it was put there was because Cyrodiil is a MASSIVE zone and you needed it to get anywhere.

The Catch-22 is this. To get Rapids I need to get to rank 5, but to get to rank 5 I need to get to the fight and I can't get there in a timely manner without rapids. In the <50 campaign at level 12, Cyrodiil is all but unplayable.

Okay umm no I’m so tried of seeing this from PvE player that clearly never PvPed you can teleport to keeps before they are flagged you get A LOT OF WARNING IN ZONE CHAT you know where the fight will be and can just pop in before in flags most fights are 15-20 minutes long and good back and forth it doesn’t take anywhere near that to RUN from one keep to another.

Stamina characters need a good heal if they don’t have class stamina heals you NEED to ride faster it just helps.

no, far more often than not there is often no zone chat warning of what keeps are going to be attacked before they flag...
usually zone chat is screaming that a particular keep is about to flip and they need help now. someone may be able to join or follow a zerg in order keep up with the fights though or they may not it seems to depend on the day. off-peak hours zone chat can be silent, no chat happening at all.

A player may be able to run to a keep before the fight is over, or not, either way all you're doing is running. not really fun.

yep Stam characters need a good heal. This should be be done within the Classes skillset. It should not be reliant on a non-class skill line.

anyway it goes both Rapids and Vigor are needed skills but now alot people are having to grind back up to a skill they used to have access to; usually on multiple characters. that's just a bad move on Zos' part

notyuu · August 2020

if only there was some sort of arena based game mode with a queuing system that awards you AP towards your alliance rank and war skill lines for fighting in it.

sarcasm aside, you can get rapids by playing battle grounds, after all you earn AP there by taking part, admittedly you earn a lot more by winning but it's an option if you don't hate yourself enough to step foot into cyrodill and still need/want those alliance war skills.

stefj68 · August 2020

i got vigor today on my stamplar, without rapid maneuver!!!! yes its a long run but enjoy your healing skills!

TwinLamps · August 2020

On the other hand if you have any character with AvA skills at 10 you can just buy the skillines from crown store

radiostar · August 2020

It's funny bc the largest map in the game makes you wait b4 you can travel across it like a real soldier. Lol I guess

This_0ne · August 2020

Want say few words: I use rapid maneur on all my 11 twin chars. Only 1 of 11 use vigor and that my main char. -_- Facepalm!