MrBrownstone wrote: »

Tomarkhos wrote: »

it would be nice to keep my same CP/BUILD without modifying it ever time I choose to solo.

Guess what, downloading an addon like alphagear and changing your whole build with the press of a single button is much easier than farming the ring. Also, don't forget that the ring increases your damage by a percentage. Tanks have pitiful damage and a 25% increase will not help at all. Changing skills/gear will do.

It costs gold to change your guild and you cannot do it on demand. My damage is far from pitiful, yours may be otherwise, and if so I am sorry, I can give you some tips. I don't know if you are aware of that or just baiting me? You have to go to a shrine to change skills and spend gold, you have to spend gold to change CP...you also have to spend gold to get a whole other set of armor and... yada yada yada...see how that works? This again does not cover the question, "why is it game-breaking to change it so that the lead drops in 2 places, one PVE, and one PVP. You all are very conveniently not answering that question.

Arca94 wrote: »

Tomarkhos wrote: »

No where did I say I want new content. I said equal. I gave you multiple examples where PVP gets access to PVE items that normally have to be ground out. Grinding out for an infused Monster helm takes time and patience. Or if you have the AP you can just buy it? How is that equal? I in no way say they should stop that, just citing an example where PVP gets their cake and to it as well in that instance.

You act as if you can simply buy Monster Helmets at your leisure from PvP.

The reality is, only 2 random Monster Sets spawn at the Golden Vendor every week. They aren't even necessarily helmets, they could be shoulders.

So, if I wanted to get Skoria for example (one which actually seems one of the more common Golden items):

I could wait and hope for weeks on end that it would spawn in the Golden Vendor at a weekend for me to then purchase with gold or AP. At best, I still need to wait for one weekend to come around for a chance at this. Then if I don't want it in Infused or Impenetrable I need to transmute it.

Or

I could get a group together with friends, guildmates or even just randoms on that day and run the dungeon multiple times, with each run guaranteeing 4 drops of the exact helmet set I want. The only variables here are the traits and armour weights. I don't even need to pay anything for it.

So please don't try to push the whole 'Grinding out for an infused Monster helm takes time and patience' when you're actually even more at the mercy of RNG and time using the PvP route, than the PvE route.

You can simply buy a monster helmet at your leisure. If you don't like the cost, that's something that is different, if you don't have the patience for that helmet to come up on the rotation...that is again something different. The difference that you are not addressing is that this something you CAN Do right now...I however cannot purchase a lead from a PVP area at ALL right now. See the difference...one you can do...but there are limits and the other you cannot do...at all. Your complaint is that the items don't come up as much as you like and only on weekends so you have to wait. I am sorry you are forced to wait but at least you have a choice to wait, perhaps put your energy into asking that they make changes to weekend gold vendors?

Arca94 you're not making any sense. What are you upset over? What is wrong with them putting this lead in both PVE and PVP? You complain it takes too long to wait (ie you don't have the patience to get the helmet you want on the rotation they set) to get it through PVP measures, yet you miss the point. The point is YOU CAN GET IT FROM THE GOLD VENDOR. You may not like what they give or when they give it but it will eventually show up...but that is NOT the case with the lead. My point stands that if you have the patience you can get a PVE item from a PVP vendor in a PVP zone, that is a fact. Whether it takes longer then you are willing to wait is a different discussion. If it makes you feel better I will go on record as saying I think the golden vendor should have all helmets and rings available all the time every day. But if they did that, it still wouldn't fix the issue I am discussing which is that this lead ONLY drops in a PVP location and cannot by any means purchased one way or another through PVE from a PVE location.

furiouslog wrote: »

I have explained it pretty clearly - you just don't agree with my explanation. To restate: the explanation is that the point of ESO's design is to facilitate its players trying out different kinds of content to get rewards, in order to increase participation, player engagement, and enjoyment of the game. It's a model that has been working for them since beta. What it breaks is the incentive to go into IC to get the lead. ZOS wants you to do that, and they made it more interesting to PvP players by putting a lead designed for PvP players in that zone. It also therefore engages PvP players with the Antiquities system, which gets them into overland and dungeon content to farm the rest of the leads.

This design causes players to try out and potentially discover new aspects of the game. Just because it is not your cup of tea, you want them to undermine their entire business model just to satisfy your specific and limited situation. I don't think ZOS should have to do that, and if I had not discovered my own enjoyment of PvP by being forced to do some of that content, I probably would have left the game a while ago. It would not break the game from a mechanics standpoint, but it would change how players engage with the game without new challenges, which could reduce interest, and therefore the population of paying customers. That could break the game. Therefore, I don't agree with what you are asking for.

I have made an offer of spending my personal time to help you out, and to show you a different point of view on the issue. If that's toxic, I'm not sure that anyone really understands what toxic means anymore.

I agree with this explanation of why it is desirable to have things such as leads only obtainable from certain parts of the games. By encouraging players to try other modes of the game that they otherwise may not it can help keep players engaged and also increase participation in the game. Obviously not all the players who get forced to try that content will enjoy it and want to keep doing it (it seems that the OP would fall into this category for PvP), but there would be some players who otherwise may not have tried that game mode and then discover they do enjoy it and want thus continue playing. This is beneficial to the game, and the change proposed by the OP is an example of something that would be detrimental to this effect.

The OP has also stated on numerous occasions that what they are asking for is "equality", citing the example that PvP players can obtain monster helms from the Golden vendor, and that the existence of such a vendor is special treatment to PvP players. I disagree with these statement for the following reasons:
1) The items available from the golden vendor can also be purchased for gold. Thus it provides an alternative source to these items for both PvP and PvE players alike, so is not special treatment specifically to PvP players.
2) The random chance means that you can't really rely on this as a source of a specific helm. Some helms have never appeared there, and potentially never will.
3) There are many other items that are PvE exclusive, including but not limited to: arena weapons, dungeon sets, trail sets, every single other mythic item, etc.

Also, more generally speaking, the game follows the general idea that if you want to get all the rewards available you must participate in all the content. If a player chooses to not participate in some content, then they are foregoing the rewards from those areas. For example, I do not enjoy arenas or dungeons in general (and I loathe fishing). Sure I have done them but I really don't enjoy having to run them to farm gear, so I don't. I have accepted that I simply won't have access to some items because my desire for them does not outweigh my general dislike of the content to obtain them, and I am fine with that. As such there are many items that would be beneficial to me as a PvP player that I do not, and will likely never, have such arena weapons, some specific monster helms like Zaan and I will likely never get the lead for Thrassian Stranglers from fishing.I don't think it would be right for ZOS to change the game to make these items accessible to me given that I choose to only participate in some content of the game as I understand that would be detrimental to the game as a whole.

I would also offer a suggestion to the OP which may assist in obtaining the lead. I don't normally go into IC much so was in a similar position to OP in terms of obtaining it. So I went in on a perma-cloaking magblade with the intention of either finding a boss and soloing it if there were no enemy players around, or if there were enemy players around just stealthing out and tossing an occasional swallow soul at the boss while they killed it. In the end the latter occured - I found a that there was a small group of an opposing alliance that was farming the bosses so I just followed them, waited until they started killing the next one, hit it a few times and then kept in cloak, and then picked up the loot when they killed it and moved on. As it was I got pretty lucky and got the lead on the second boss, but this was a reasonably safe and painless approach for me.

furiouslog wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

how, exactly?

Depends on what you're doing, probably. But especially dlc areas are quite empty even in the evenings. Happens often that I'm questing and see maybe four or five people within an hour, not more (actually I was fishing for a lead in Clockwork City this evening - took some time until I got it, and I literally saw no one else all the time although I've been close to a wayshrine). And most 4-player dungeons are easily soloable as well.

Oh I see. So basically limit your content so that you don't have to group or interact with anyone. That seems extreme. Why even be in an MMO? There are loads of excellent single player games.

I have no clue what you are talking about. I don't limit myself in any way, I go where I want and do what I like. I just realized, during my normal playing style, that the dlc areas are quite empty even in the evenings (at least on PC EU), so if someone doesn't want to interact with many people, it would probably work well in PvE. That's all I was saying.

Also, it's none of your business how and why other people play ESO, I'm here because I love TES lore, so I spend most time solo questing and enjoying the stories. I don't know what's "extreme" about that, and I don't care.

hafgood wrote: »

You say PvPers have offered no valid reason as to why the lead shouldn't be moved to suit those who do not like PvP. I would counter that and say in no way have you offered a valid reason as to why it should be moved.

OP uttered a wish, that's all, a proposition.

hafgood wrote: »

Your reason is because you don't like PvP. That is no more a valid reason than asking for the fishing leads to be moved because someone doesn't like fishing.

How about diversity? Giving people different ways to get a lead?

[snip]

So right. I like PvP every now and then. Not so much of late and certainly not with these type people. I'd like to see Cyrodiil and Imperial City split off from the current game into something like the PTS is where you go there solely for PVP and those areas are reworked into PvE areas because for the vast portion of the players they might as well be. Then they can try to balance the heck out of it without affecting PvE and if successful they might develop another source of income from those niche folks that like PvP in their role playing games. Then skills could finally be worked to maximize PvE enjoyment and not because how they work in PvP. And the bonus is they really never have to update it beyond just balance (and more balance and more balance) instead of the pointless fight to figure out a way to get PvEers into PvP areas to give PvPers someone they can win against.

[edited to remove quoted content]

I wish they'd remove them from PvE only zones.

Too bad you ignored Midyear Mayhem, OP.

IC was jam-packed with pick-up groups of all factions playing ring-around-the-rosie farming the IC bosses.

Could have easily gotten your lead then. The drop rate appeared pretty darn good too.

MincVinyl wrote: »

Tomarkhos wrote: »

MincVinyl wrote: »

I too hate that I have to learn a new aspect of the game in order to progress, If only they just gave everything to me for free.

I feel you completely missed the point. You have to work at scrying and excavating, you have to work to have all the appropriate zones unlocked, you have to work to gear and level up to kill the world bosses, you need too constantly run the same dungeons over and over to get a lead to drop... The work is being done. There is a difference between work and a time sink.

Light attacking your way through some of the same dungeons since launch over and over is a time sink my guy. By no means is that hard or new or exciting, it is just for you to waste your time. Spending the time to learn a whole new aspect of the game like pvp isnt a time sink. It is new, it is exciting, and it is hard for many newer players until they learn.

Sorry but I really don't see people just light attacking their way through Vet content like KA or SS. If you are able to clear it that easy then by all means I am impressed. Also, dungeons like frost vault and moon hunter keep are no walks in the park on vet either, but perhaps that is just me. As for learning a new part of the game being a time sink...I do not disagree with you there at all. I was saying the time sink was trying to FIND a boss to kill to get the lead. Remember I'm not talking about PVP, you went there. I am just saying it IS a time sink running around a large circle in IC looking and hoping for a boss to appear so you can have the chance of killing it before getting shot in the back. Listen you can agree until you are blue in the face but the fact is that OTHER players can block your progression from getting the lead. I am just asking the lead to be put in an area where that cannot happen. I am sorry if that deeply offends you.

Just wanna say, I’m quite glad I had to go into IC to grab that lead. I hadn’t been there in a long time, and while I can manage the bosses myself on a high burst damage build, it takes some time, spending a lot of time on the back bar even sometimes failing or getting interrupted by enemy factions, I met lots of friendlies as well. I was on a mission to kill bosses and get paid. Even after acquiring the lead, I continued farming bosses for stones, defending zones, and just all round having a blast. I plan to return this weekend.

I don’t understand the stigma people have of “PvP”, it’s just another part of the game. And like any game, if you just learn, take time to time to perfect the build, it can be very rewarding and fun. I think people take the game, and themselves too seriously at times. Persistence is key, challenges are fun, stop being afraid of dying in a video game.

Time and time again I see those

Pvp players need to catch the clue that they are playing in the sideshow.

Cyrodiil, the battlegrounds, and both sections of the imperial city are sideshow zones.

You start out in the main game - the pve area. You have no choice in this, fo it or leave.

You have to play the starting area and level up to 10 in pve before you can enter the most basic pvp area. You have no choice in this, do it or leave.

Your weapon and armor skill levels increase through pve experience points. You have no choice in this.

You aren’t ganking people with a war horn / caltrops / proxy det combination. You won’t be winning anything with that combination. You will have to use those pve weapon skills.

Just because the game is divided into two separate pve and pvp areas does not mean those areas are equal. Very much like how your home can be divided into two separate bathroom and not-smelly areas that are not equal. Very much line how your body can be divided into two separate arsehole and not-smelly areas that are not equal.

Pvp is not the equal of pve. The pvp players are extremely vocal, and that has distorted the simple truth that pvp does not survive without the continued expanding efforts of Zos to get pve players to go there.

War horn. Rapids. Vigor. Razor Caltrops. Barrier. The golden. The low requirement for the large number of transmute crystals - that can only be used in a pve area. The low price on crafting materials. And now a few token antiquity leads for pve-based content. These things and others I have forgotten to include are all ways that Zos has been trying to get pve people to leave the main game and go do pvp content.

So. Let’s cut the nonsense. Pvp isn’t the equal of pve, so let’s stop forgetting that it isn’t more than a sideshow tacked on to the main game.

We pve players are well within our prerogative to be irritated that once again Zos is putting something pve-based in a pvp zone in order to get us to go there and get griefed by people who think a sneak attack on someone who is in the middle of a boss battle is some sort of achievement.