its painful to pug dungeons

Playboy_Shrek · August 2020

veteran and esp vet dlc dungeons, they are all largely dps checks. if you don't have high dps, its torture and it takes forever. and most of them are downright undoable without very good dps, so you end up queuing. seeing how bad the dps is at the first group of mobs. and exit because you really don't want to waste your time over nothing.

the difference between the average dps and the top tier dps player is far too big because of LA weaving and animation canceling. I don't play dps. pretty much only tank. but your making vet dungeons pretty much based around the skills of those high tier players otherwise they'd be a breeze for them.

I really have no idea whats the fix here. its too much of a time investment to try to create a group to do dungeons and some people aren't always available. pugging is only option or at least the most available. if we can make that gap between average and top tier dps. sometimes like. maybe 50% more dps. not like double or 2.5x the dps, that would be a lot better in my opinion.

like just not gonna go through with vet moongrave when my 810cp dps is soloing the crocodile for 12 seconds. I feel like the limit of animation canceling should be visible LA weaving and quick succession. maybe not to the point where you don't even see the skill going off which makes people do 90k+ dps.

Houshiki · August 2020

Firstly, PUGs will always be a mixed bag, Some are good, some are bad.

Secondly, while LA weaving does indeed boost dps, its not what makes or breaks a build. You need to take into account the gear, abilities, and cp distribution of a dps pulling low numbers. Things like a proper rotation, a practiced rotation, situational awareness, etc. For example, a dps in full heavy, with 11k hp, is unlikely to be pulling high numbers with or without LA weaving.

Lastly, asking for the dps numbers to essentially be capped to within 50% of what the average casual player can pull is hardly a good solution. It does not fix content with high dps checks, or let tanks not have to go through a slog of slow burn pulls. If anything, it just punishes the people that took the time and effort to git gud.

Everest_Lionheart · August 2020

High DPS is likely the reason why DLC became a lot more mech oriented. Can’t melt the boss when certain mechanics can’t be ignored. Doesn’t stop them from instant kills between certain mechs though. We ran some pre made groups through a few last week. 1T 3DPS. The mechs meant we didn’t need a healer as long as we played the mechs properly and had one self heal. Makes for an easier fight that way overall.

Pugs can’t handle that kind of pressure though. What they need to do is toggle DLC on/off in the queue to keep people out of content where they don’t necessarily belong but end up getting throw into head first. I remember my first two pug runs, Fang Lair and Frostvault, thank god those were normal but I had a hell of a time keeping up because I was still a noob to 4 man dungeons and just learning the ropes. That kind of trial by fire was a good experience but made me give up pugging anything until I could put up decent numbers.

Scrollup · August 2020

ESO is revolved around how you build your character with the proper gear set, Skills you slot and how you use it (including weaving). Which is why there's a large grey area between normal dungeon and veteran dungeon especially some of the tougher veteran dungeons.

Heck i will throw in PVP along with this.

Unfortunately, I don't see any improvement in QOL for this.

The only fix I think of is increasing all 3 attributes by 50 to 100 points per level you gain up until you reach level 50. Which means your DPS will increase in percentage as you level up to lv.50 rather than simply gaining Attribute and skill points since your max pool are also increased. This method I think will help overall survival rate and dps output and help everyone even if its a little boost.
This should also boost other features such as BG and PVP in some ways benefit players from being under gear or under the optimal health, magicka, stamina max pool for each class.

Raisin · August 2020

So what dungeons have actual DPS checks where you can't clear at all? vLoM comes to mind. Not sure what else. The fact that you think a long boss fight is torture doesn't equal undoable. If you're used to running with high DPS, you get unnaturally used to boss fights that take under a minute.

We all get it, sometimes low DPS PUGs are just too tedious, but that's the risk of queuing.

Donny_Vito · August 2020

Another issue is that the "elite DPS players" that you referred are often in trial guilds and progression groups, so that means they typically have people to play with and may not downright pug a vet dungeon when they can easily get qualified people to queue with.

thorwyn · August 2020

veteran and esp vet dlc dungeons, they are all largely dps checks. if you don't have high dps, its torture and it takes forever.

There is content that is simply not meant to be played by everyone. This content requires a certain level of experience to succeed. And that is a good thing because it offers a long term challence and a goal to work on.
Getting to a decent ammount of dps is really not *that* hard. I'm not talking about 95k dps, I'm talking about 40-50k which is more than enough to beat vet dlc dungeons.
If people are not willing to invest some time and effort into reaching those numbers, you can not expect the game to artficially give them a helping hand, those players are simply not ready for this kind of content.

Everest_Lionheart · August 2020

One of my guild mates last night was having trouble with his pug attempts at nMoS, couldn’t get past the first boss because non of the groups could figure out kiting or how to interrupt. He was DPS, picked up 2 more DPS and a tank and we walked though it with a few snags as tank had never been there before so took a second to get things properly locked in place.

After that it’s all mechanics, which too many players struggle at because the game almost never makes players practice any sort of mechanics. Blocking, interrupting, dodge roll, that’s seldom used in content and knowing which mechanic is appropriate for each situation is also never really explained anywhere. Sometimes you do t want to necessarily interrupt those red sparks because you are going to cause more trouble than it’s worth. Sometimes you don’t want to kill adds for the same reasons. Sometimes dodge roll is the only option.

Dungeons need an actual tutorial to practice basic mechanics.

zvavi · August 2020

Tbh I don't care if the group I get is low dps (I pug a lot on my tanks) my problem starts when they have no dps, they don't do mechanics, and they lay dead all the time. I just left a group like that in vMGF, being stack half an hour on first boss is not fun.

VaranisArano · August 2020

Then don't PUG?

I know its tough to get a guild group or a zone group together for certain dungeons, but its the only real solution that works. Even having two or three members who group up knowing what do can make a big difference if you have to pull in randoms.

zvavi · August 2020

Playboy_Shrek wrote: »

I really have no idea whats the fix here. its too much of a time investment to try to create a group to do dungeons and some people aren't always available. pugging is only option or at least the most available. if we can make that gap between average and top tier dps. sometimes like. maybe 50% more dps. not like double or 2.5x the dps, that would be a lot better in my opinion.

Let's look at the following player that has these modes:
1. Spam rapid strikes
2. Spam snipe
3. Panic like a headless chicken

How do you expect this guy to deal decent damage?

PizzaCat82 · August 2020

thorwyn wrote: »

veteran and esp vet dlc dungeons, they are all largely dps checks. if you don't have high dps, its torture and it takes forever.

There is content that is simply not meant to be played by everyone. This content requires a certain level of experience to succeed. And that is a good thing because it offers a long term challence and a goal to work on.
Getting to a decent ammount of dps is really not *that* hard. I'm not talking about 95k dps, I'm talking about 40-50k which is more than enough to beat vet dlc dungeons.
If people are not willing to invest some time and effort into reaching those numbers, you can not expect the game to artficially give them a helping hand, those players are simply not ready for this kind of content.

Imagine paying for a game and getting told that you don't get to play some of it, ever.

AlnilamE · August 2020

Honest question:

What fights have a group wipe mechanic if you don't kill the boss within a certain amount of time?

The only one I can think of is Bloodspawn, which used to be the original DPS test.

Raudgrani · August 2020

I can't think of many dungeons that are "DPS checks", really - which ones do you mean? At a few of them, you can circumvent some mechanics by nuking bosses - but there's not much more to it afaik. It's almost a bit more like you should be slow cooking quite a few bosses in order to not get overwhelmed by adds/mechanics that spawn/happen at certain %'s.

On the contrary, it feels a little like a "quality check", if you can't "pug" a vet dungeon - are you really that good? ;-D

zvavi · August 2020

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

The problem is subpar dps are way too often carried instead of kicked.

The solution is simply kick them even if you can carry.

[Quoted post was removed]

I mean, I agree it is an ass move to kick for low damage, but I also feel like queuing with horrid damage, expecting to be carried through, is an ass move as well. And I tell you my experience as a tank that pugs right now.

DMuehlhausen · August 2020

thorwyn wrote: »

veteran and esp vet dlc dungeons, they are all largely dps checks. if you don't have high dps, its torture and it takes forever.

There is content that is simply not meant to be played by everyone. This content requires a certain level of experience to succeed. And that is a good thing because it offers a long term challence and a goal to work on.
Getting to a decent ammount of dps is really not *that* hard. I'm not talking about 95k dps, I'm talking about 40-50k which is more than enough to beat vet dlc dungeons.
If people are not willing to invest some time and effort into reaching those numbers, you can not expect the game to artficially give them a helping hand, those players are simply not ready for this kind of content.

This couldn't be further from the truth. Anybody can complete anything. Just don't be a jerk and kick people. People do need to be more aware of what is going on though. If people took the time to teach instead of kicking and leaving people could do anything. ICP and WGT use to be impossible to pug, and now (even before the nerfs) once people learned them they have become a joke.

One of the biggest issues though is healers can't punish people for not follow mechs. In games like EQ, WoW, EQ2, FFXI, or basically any MMO other than ESO you have targetted healing. If a DD refused to move out of the big red dumb you simply stopped healing them. They either learned or were removed for refusing to. Now with all non targetted and mostly large powerful AoE healing they don't have to do this.

I was just in a group yesterday on DoM. The whole thing was smooth until the final boss where we kept wiping. Of course there was one DD that kept blaming me as the healer saying he wasn't getting heals, I'm trying to dps instead. All of which weren't true. He was one of those fools that space hops around. He would jump into the AoE spinning attack and die, or jump out of my AoE heals and die. Or with the dark orb aoe would one shot him or his DD friend and of course I don't know what i'm doing when their HP can't survive an attack I can't do anything about.

So again the key is take the time to teach people what is going on and what to do. 1. You might make a new friend that will be on that you can consistently have around for dungeons instead of Pugging. 2. The more people that learn what to do makes the pool of people that know what to do larger thus making PuGs less painful.

Sanguinor2 · August 2020

Raudgrani wrote: »

I can't think of many dungeons that are "DPS checks", really - which ones do you mean? At a few of them, you can circumvent some mechanics by nuking bosses - but there's not much more to it afaik. It's almost a bit more like you should be slow cooking quite a few bosses in order to not get overwhelmed by adds/mechanics that spawn/happen at certain %'s.

On the contrary, it feels a little like a "quality check", if you can't "pug" a vet dungeon - are you really that good? ;-D

That benchmark of yours does not really work for tanks. If the tank is staying alive, keeping boss and adds taunted and positions both accordingly thats pretty much all a tank can do besides debuffing (which does exactly nothing for low dps dds) or trying to dps himself (with less than stellar results because he is a tank). For the boss to actually die he is at the mercy of dds.

For example I pugged vet fang lair as a tank, dds and healer constantly died at caluurion with me taunting the boss and all the adds, they still died to random AoEs, if I had wanted to I could have stayed alive infinitely since I was running bloodlords embrace and couldnt run out of mag. However there is no real point in that since it would take me ages to kill the boss alone and dds and healer died very soon after getting rezzed and just ran around like headless chickens when alive.

Does that now make me a bad tank since I wasnt able to pug a vet dungeon? I dont think so since I can easily tank vet hm trials like CR+3, AS+2 etc.

thorwyn · August 2020

Imagine paying for a game and getting told that you don't get to play some of it, ever.

Imagine having to invest some effort in order to achieve something. What is your point? Every player has everything he needs at his hands, so keep practicing, keep getting better, keep learning like everyone else has. I seriously don't get why people feel so entitled to having everything shaped to their abilities and needs. Want to become a chess grandmaster? Keep practicing. Want to play the guitar on Hendrix level? Keep practicing. Success doesn't come out of the blue and you certainly can not demand it.

This couldn't be further from the truth. Anybody can complete anything. Just don't be a jerk and kick people.

Where did I say that I would kick people?!
I'm actually pugging a lot, I almost never kick anyone and I'm more than happy to help and explain whenever I can. However, OP was talking about closing the gap between high and low DPS via the game and that's not going to help anyone in the long run. People would just complete the vet dlc dungeons and hop right into vet trials just to bump into the next iteration of the problem.

josiahva · August 2020

Playboy_Shrek wrote: »

veteran and esp vet dlc dungeons, they are all largely dps checks. if you don't have high dps, its torture and it takes forever. and most of them are downright undoable without very good dps, so you end up queuing. seeing how bad the dps is at the first group of mobs. and exit because you really don't want to waste your time over nothing.

the difference between the average dps and the top tier dps player is far too big because of LA weaving and animation canceling. I don't play dps. pretty much only tank. but your making vet dungeons pretty much based around the skills of those high tier players otherwise they'd be a breeze for them.

I really have no idea whats the fix here. its too much of a time investment to try to create a group to do dungeons and some people aren't always available. pugging is only option or at least the most available. if we can make that gap between average and top tier dps. sometimes like. maybe 50% more dps. not like double or 2.5x the dps, that would be a lot better in my opinion.

like just not gonna go through with vet moongrave when my 810cp dps is soloing the crocodile for 12 seconds. I feel like the limit of animation canceling should be visible LA weaving and quick succession. maybe not to the point where you don't even see the skill going off which makes people do 90k+ dps.

Funny, I just pug tanked vDoM yesterday without any real trouble with 34k group DPS....it doesn't get much lower than that these days. True, it was not a fast or smooth run by any means....but it can be done just fine with group finder. All it takes is an effort to follow the mechs. It is also true not all vet DLC dungeons are as forgiving(vLoM, vMGF in particular) but most can be done just fine with lower DPS

VaranisArano · August 2020

AlnilamE wrote: »

Honest question:

What fights have a group wipe mechanic if you don't kill the boss within a certain amount of time?

The only one I can think of is Bloodspawn, which used to be the original DPS test.

Valkyn Skoria? I know you can technically survive with no platforms, but its a lot harder.

That being said, any boss fight can be a group wipe with slow DPS once you get behind the curve of group members dying, having to rez, and dealing even lower damage because of that.

Donny_Vito · August 2020

josiahva wrote: »

Playboy_Shrek wrote: »

veteran and esp vet dlc dungeons, they are all largely dps checks. if you don't have high dps, its torture and it takes forever. and most of them are downright undoable without very good dps, so you end up queuing. seeing how bad the dps is at the first group of mobs. and exit because you really don't want to waste your time over nothing.

the difference between the average dps and the top tier dps player is far too big because of LA weaving and animation canceling. I don't play dps. pretty much only tank. but your making vet dungeons pretty much based around the skills of those high tier players otherwise they'd be a breeze for them.

I really have no idea whats the fix here. its too much of a time investment to try to create a group to do dungeons and some people aren't always available. pugging is only option or at least the most available. if we can make that gap between average and top tier dps. sometimes like. maybe 50% more dps. not like double or 2.5x the dps, that would be a lot better in my opinion.

like just not gonna go through with vet moongrave when my 810cp dps is soloing the crocodile for 12 seconds. I feel like the limit of animation canceling should be visible LA weaving and quick succession. maybe not to the point where you don't even see the skill going off which makes people do 90k+ dps.

Funny, I just pug tanked vDoM yesterday without any real trouble with 34k group DPS....it doesn't get much lower than that these days. True, it was not a fast or smooth run by any means....but it can be done just fine with group finder. All it takes is an effort to follow the mechs. It is also true not all vet DLC dungeons are as forgiving(vLoM, vMGF in particular) but most can be done just fine with lower DPS

You really need to specify what you mean by "just fine" because before that you stated the run was not a fast or smooth run by any means, so it seems there is a pretty low bar for what is classified as being "just fine." Any dungeon that takes longer than an hour, maybe an hour and a half for a few exceptions, is way beyond behind fine in my opinion.

zaria · August 2020

AlnilamE wrote: »

Honest question:

What fights have a group wipe mechanic if you don't kill the boss within a certain amount of time?

The only one I can think of is Bloodspawn, which used to be the original DPS test.

Yes, Bloodspawn is the obvious one, you also have soft dps checks like keeper Indril and last boss in BC2.
You can wipe on both in normal, tanked it leveling up an tank

Its probably others like that, the last boss in Blackheart haven is one but its also more of an skill thing. If dps is low you need to use more time killing skeletons but you have the trick of pulling him to the back who will stack up the archers so you can AoE them easier.

Now in many dungeons with one shot mechanics low dps result in you having to do the mechanic for far longer increasing the chance of people dying and players with low dps are usually not very good at handling fast mechanics either.

Milchbart · August 2020

AlnilamE wrote: »

Honest question:

What fights have a group wipe mechanic if you don't kill the boss within a certain amount of time?

Frostvault hm skeever racetrack (you need to "kill" the switches=bosses within a limited timeframe )

Arunei · August 2020

ForzaRammer wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

No, actually, the solution isn't to kick people just because you think they aren't doing 'enough' damage. The solution is to actually try to help people instead of just automatically tossing them to the side like they're garbage.

So many people get angry at people doing 'subpar' DPS, saying "oh they should know how to do stuff before doing group content!", and yet how do you people expect others to know how to do stuff if you want to just punt them from the group rather than trying to show them the ropes? It's always "I don't have the time" or "I'm not obligated to teach anyone anything", well, you don't have a right to complain about 'subpar' DPS if you aren't making an effort to help people and want to pass the buck of teaching them off to someone else because you can't be bothered.

Sanguinor2 · August 2020

Arunei wrote: »

No, actually, the solution isn't to kick people just because you think they aren't doing 'enough' damage. The solution is to actually try to help people instead of just automatically tossing them to the side like they're garbage.

So many people get angry at people doing 'subpar' DPS, saying "oh they should know how to do stuff before doing group content!", and yet how do you people expect others to know how to do stuff if you want to just punt them from the group rather than trying to show them the ropes? It's always "I don't have the time" or "I'm not obligated to teach anyone anything", well, you don't have a right to complain about 'subpar' DPS if you aren't making an effort to help people and want to pass the buck of teaching them off to someone else because you can't be bothered.

If its on how to deal with mechanics etc. sure. You can show/teach mechanics in a dungeon run I always offer to do so if someone doesnt obviously know them and/or asks. But you cant give someone a decent dps setup and teach them a rotation in the middle of a dungeon. Its also very easy to look stuff up. While you can do that afterwards it really does nothing to improve the absolutely miserable experience you are gonna have as a tank in the present run because someone didnt prepare to do their role. And that is assuming that the person that gets carried by their other group members even cares, because quite a few dont and are just along for the ride and hope that no one minds them not contributing anything to a group effort.

newtinmpls · August 2020

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

Imagine paying for a game and getting told that you don't get to play some of it, ever.

Looking at it more realistically, there are parts of the game that are easier and harder. You can attempt any of it. Your success will depend on your skills/damage/party.

This will take time, learning and practice. If not investing in these things, then ... no good result.

Teaching in dungeons is also good. I recall one time I was in a PUG Arx Corinium, we were all fairly new, we had all had experiences of doing it previously but we just couldn't get past the early "snake boss". Come to find out (researching it online later) that if you don't stay out of his "red circle" he will heal - well apparently none of us had actually learned that, and by sheer chance, it had just never been an issue.

Kind of humorous in a way, but I try to keep it in mind and if it looks like someone(s) in a PUG are not "getting that" I will mention it, because even if we burn it down "this time", it may bite someone in the behind later - IF they don't know it.

PrimusNephilim · August 2020

Playboy_Shrek wrote: »

its painful to pug dungeons

Not if you're drinking margaritas

DMuehlhausen · August 2020

While I feel like you should always take the time to help people.

I will say there should be a requirement to entire vet versions of dungeons. Maybe doing a normal no death run, or normal with less than X death or under a time limit. A lot of people just jump right into the vet version, have no idea what is happening and that does cause problems.

josiahva · August 2020

Donny_Vito wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Playboy_Shrek wrote: »

veteran and esp vet dlc dungeons, they are all largely dps checks. if you don't have high dps, its torture and it takes forever. and most of them are downright undoable without very good dps, so you end up queuing. seeing how bad the dps is at the first group of mobs. and exit because you really don't want to waste your time over nothing.

the difference between the average dps and the top tier dps player is far too big because of LA weaving and animation canceling. I don't play dps. pretty much only tank. but your making vet dungeons pretty much based around the skills of those high tier players otherwise they'd be a breeze for them.

I really have no idea whats the fix here. its too much of a time investment to try to create a group to do dungeons and some people aren't always available. pugging is only option or at least the most available. if we can make that gap between average and top tier dps. sometimes like. maybe 50% more dps. not like double or 2.5x the dps, that would be a lot better in my opinion.

like just not gonna go through with vet moongrave when my 810cp dps is soloing the crocodile for 12 seconds. I feel like the limit of animation canceling should be visible LA weaving and quick succession. maybe not to the point where you don't even see the skill going off which makes people do 90k+ dps.

Funny, I just pug tanked vDoM yesterday without any real trouble with 34k group DPS....it doesn't get much lower than that these days. True, it was not a fast or smooth run by any means....but it can be done just fine with group finder. All it takes is an effort to follow the mechs. It is also true not all vet DLC dungeons are as forgiving(vLoM, vMGF in particular) but most can be done just fine with lower DPS

You really need to specify what you mean by "just fine" because before that you stated the run was not a fast or smooth run by any means, so it seems there is a pretty low bar for what is classified as being "just fine." Any dungeon that takes longer than an hour, maybe an hour and a half for a few exceptions, is way beyond behind fine in my opinion.

Fair enough. By "just fine" I meant we finished in about 1 hour 15 minutes or so....by "not smooth" I mean we wiped a couple times. Not breaking any records there, but the dungeon wasn't miserable either. People learned stuff so it was all good.

Shantu · August 2020

Uhh...if it's painful, don't do it. With pugs, you get what you get.

Pauwer · August 2020

Only play with friends if you want a perfect dungeon run. I like the randomness and i enjoy if i can carry a group on my healer especially. To me it's not painful but satisfying.