Crazy Idea: Make sustain easier in PVE

idk · August 2020

Considering part of the foundation of combat in ESO is managing resources instead of having cooldowns on the use of skills the idea does not make sense and pretty sure it will not happen.

Zos has already made it possible for people to have enough sustain. Either via well-organized groups or sacrificing damage stats for sustain.

Onefrkncrzypope · August 2020

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

With b4b gone there are classes that can't sustain their dps kit while other classes can. It would be super if ZoS could just make stat out = stat gain on the trial dummy.

It’s a hard DPS nerf for sure but it needed to happen. Unlimited sustain is bad and BFB meta proved that.

We all want more sustain in fact sustain is what’s holding my Stamwarden back at the moment. If I didn’t have to grab 2 heavy attacks every 3rd rotation my damage would be much higher, than it is now. Those 2 heavies allow me to focus when it’s time to execute because there is just enough gas in the tank to get me over the finish line. That’s the trade though damage for sustain it’s a good balance and brings more skill to the table rather than making it a button mashing race.

Yeah that what I was saying. Some classes just can't do a rotation with out the bfb sustain cheese.

Stamden hurts bad. SDK is pretty close behind with just sustainable. mdk with whip, sorc. It's bad everywhere

Anyron · August 2020

I am pve noob just like you, but when you have sustain issues you should try some recovery sets. Thats why it is there.
You shouldnt be surprised your sustain is bad with 3/3 damage sets

thorwyn · August 2020

Sustain is not the gap closer between good and bad play. Bad damage dealers are dropping a ton of damage by missing LA's, overcasting, not kepping up their AOE's and buffs. Removing resource management would just encourage people to keep going with their bad rotations. They would never even notice a difference, because they could just inifnitely sustain their bad play now. Running out of resources is like an indicator that there is something wrong. It is an important signal on the path to proper play.

IonicKai · August 2020

thorwyn wrote: »

Sustain is not the gap closer between good and bad play. Bad damage dealers are dropping a ton of damage by missing LA's, overcasting, not kepping up their AOE's and buffs. Removing resource management would just encourage people to keep going with their bad rotations. They would never even notice a difference, because they could just inifnitely sustain their bad play now. Running out of resources is like an indicator that there is something wrong. It is an important signal on the path to proper play.

This would reduce the penalty on over casting and get lower level players more comfortable with applying AOEs more often. Again not wrong that resource management issues can be a sign of bad roto but there are also classes and rotations that just aren't feasible to maintain because they keep trying to nerf sustain. All I was getting at is that the more of a tight rope ZOS makes sustain the harder it is for people learning. If you are hitting 60k and it's because you can't manage resources this would help you hit 70k.

Again for those that don't read I don't need this (though I wouldn't complain). I already hit mid 80s, don't usually have trouble with resources, and run vet trials with high end teams (on console).... This is not directly for me but a suggestion that ZOS change their approach if they really want to start raising the floor. Everything they have done towards allegedly achieving that goal has had the opposite effect. The gap is larger that ever so this was just a possible suggestion.

To those that are quoting ZOS on resource management being a corner stone of the games design that is a fair argument and you aren't wrong. This is why I said it was a crazy idea because it goes against that notion. To everyone that's saying uSe sUStaIn sets.... You clearly aren't a good DPS in pve. Using sustain sets is a death sentence to your total DPS because the swing is that large with what you are giving up. The only things you can do are use absorb enchant (2k+ DPS loss but better sustain), recovery food (witch mother's and clockwork citrus got heavily nerfed several patches ago and give you way less survivability and about 200 less effective spell damage compared to bi-stat), or slap a recovery glyph on which is either a 174 spell damage loss or 278 spell damage (infused) and that's before buffs. None of those are very viable and many players struggle to sustain even if they use those options.

Everest_Lionheart · August 2020

thorwyn wrote: »

Sustain is not the gap closer between good and bad play. Bad damage dealers are dropping a ton of damage by missing LA's, overcasting, not kepping up their AOE's and buffs. Removing resource management would just encourage people to keep going with their bad rotations. They would never even notice a difference, because they could just inifnitely sustain their bad play now. Running out of resources is like an indicator that there is something wrong. It is an important signal on the path to proper play.

The killer is on consoles trying to manage your dot timers because the buffs/debuffs that we see move around all over the place. That and basic bread and butter dots like elements blockade don’t really have an indicator at all, so you have to make the mental association with another dot timer to make sure you keep it up even though you may be over casting slightly when running a more dynamic rotation. It can be worked around if you have a keen sense of timing but you may be giving up an extra spamable to recast your associated timer. Even if you can sustain it’s still a net DPS loss either way.

Or in a case like stamwarden for example the timers are pretty easy to manage as far as back bar dots are concerned but you end up making a choice to run a full dynamic rotation and do the extra bar swap to cast your sub assault every 3rd skill or just unload that 3rd dot and lose the damage. And losing a cast of SA is a massive loss, but the rotation is way easier to manage. You’ve also got some bonus damage you can proc while running cutting dive when your target is off balance meaning you can spam it 5 times or more to proc extra bleed damage. This is a good trade against your SA, but it’s easy to get lost in the rotation and overcast it and create an ever worse sustain problem. Plus if your back bar dots drop in the process you’ve likely lost damage in the process. Console dynamic rotations like this are difficult to manage.

I would kill to have it all in one place like PC instead of having to check the crazy line of buffs/timers that can stretch all the way across the screen on console. Did I mention those little boxes and indicators move as you cast new skills as well?

Of course real world fights go nothing like parses, but hey at least I got my rotation down for anything that doesn’t actually move or fight back!

exeeter702 · August 2020

IonicKai wrote: »

So over the course of my playing this game I have watched ZOS claim that they wanted to raise the floor while lowering the ceiling (spoiler alert they have done the opposite). One of the biggest things they have pushed in order to lower the ceiling is sustain nerfs.

Here's the problem with using harsh sustain as a means of curbing top end. Your best players will figure out the optimal combination of sustain and damage. They will walk a tight rope most normal players cannot. Your more average players however suffer greatly when sustain is a tight rope. They are going to mess up rotations which means ability overcast and higher resource drain. This serves to further the gap between the floor/midtier players and top end players.

Suggestion. Raise base recovery by 50% with an appropriate 50% nerf in battle spirit to avoid affecting PvP. Also buff sustain food (witch mother's/ clockwork citrus and dubious/artaeum takeaway) to their values before your last nerf in I believe the Elswyr or wrathstone patch.

Doing this would not change much endgame as top end players would just be happy sustain was slightly more convenient but to your midtier players this would be a massive buff. They would actually be able to do the rotos without bleeding all their resources and being stuck heavy attacking for massive damage loss.

50% was just a number to experiment with but the idea is that sustain is way too harsh and over sustain doesn't really hurt things that much. It's a convenience.

Before anyone jumps down my throat with "you're just bad at this game" or "sustain is easy" you are probably part of the group that has already achieved relative mastery of combat in this game so you are not the ones that this change is for. It's for people trying to get to this level. Also I do plenty of endgame raiding in multiple roles. I just remember what it was like when I was learning.

It has nothing to do with being good or bad. You need to understand that if sustain is alleviated in the manner you suggest, you have just effectively increased the dps top end threshold by a significant margin, which means end game encounters become that much easier for everyone and zos would have to rebalance encounters in terms of rage timers and health pools of boss fights. A 50 percent increase to sustain accross the board means more dps contributions from healers that wont need to slot resource utility, and dps builds that have to spend less time wasting GCDs on heavies.

IonicKai · August 2020

exeeter702 wrote: »

IonicKai wrote: »

So over the course of my playing this game I have watched ZOS claim that they wanted to raise the floor while lowering the ceiling (spoiler alert they have done the opposite). One of the biggest things they have pushed in order to lower the ceiling is sustain nerfs.

Here's the problem with using harsh sustain as a means of curbing top end. Your best players will figure out the optimal combination of sustain and damage. They will walk a tight rope most normal players cannot. Your more average players however suffer greatly when sustain is a tight rope. They are going to mess up rotations which means ability overcast and higher resource drain. This serves to further the gap between the floor/midtier players and top end players.

Suggestion. Raise base recovery by 50% with an appropriate 50% nerf in battle spirit to avoid affecting PvP. Also buff sustain food (witch mother's/ clockwork citrus and dubious/artaeum takeaway) to their values before your last nerf in I believe the Elswyr or wrathstone patch.

Doing this would not change much endgame as top end players would just be happy sustain was slightly more convenient but to your midtier players this would be a massive buff. They would actually be able to do the rotos without bleeding all their resources and being stuck heavy attacking for massive damage loss.

50% was just a number to experiment with but the idea is that sustain is way too harsh and over sustain doesn't really hurt things that much. It's a convenience.

Before anyone jumps down my throat with "you're just bad at this game" or "sustain is easy" you are probably part of the group that has already achieved relative mastery of combat in this game so you are not the ones that this change is for. It's for people trying to get to this level. Also I do plenty of endgame raiding in multiple roles. I just remember what it was like when I was learning.

It has nothing to do with being good or bad. You need to understand that if sustain is alleviated in the manner you suggest, you have just effectively increased the dps top end threshold by a significant margin, which means end game encounters become that much easier for everyone and zos would have to rebalance encounters in terms of rage timers and health pools of boss fights. A 50 percent increase to sustain accross the board means more dps contributions from healers that wont need to slot resource utility, and dps builds that have to spend less time wasting GCDs on heavies.

As I said 50% was just a random number. I understand that it could cause other issues but the truth is that sustain is already happening with high end groups now. Your learning groups that have bad uptime of buffs and debuffs are the ones likely to have sustain issues right now. Again this was a wild thought because by making sustain consistently worse they are only penalizing lower skilled players. Top end players will always find a way unless you literally make something impossible. Even then they will create the best possible outcome and that will be meta.

Juhasow · August 2020

IonicKai wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

IonicKai wrote: »

So over the course of my playing this game I have watched ZOS claim that they wanted to raise the floor while lowering the ceiling (spoiler alert they have done the opposite). One of the biggest things they have pushed in order to lower the ceiling is sustain nerfs.

Here's the problem with using harsh sustain as a means of curbing top end. Your best players will figure out the optimal combination of sustain and damage. They will walk a tight rope most normal players cannot. Your more average players however suffer greatly when sustain is a tight rope. They are going to mess up rotations which means ability overcast and higher resource drain. This serves to further the gap between the floor/midtier players and top end players.

Suggestion. Raise base recovery by 50% with an appropriate 50% nerf in battle spirit to avoid affecting PvP. Also buff sustain food (witch mother's/ clockwork citrus and dubious/artaeum takeaway) to their values before your last nerf in I believe the Elswyr or wrathstone patch.

Doing this would not change much endgame as top end players would just be happy sustain was slightly more convenient but to your midtier players this would be a massive buff. They would actually be able to do the rotos without bleeding all their resources and being stuck heavy attacking for massive damage loss.

50% was just a number to experiment with but the idea is that sustain is way too harsh and over sustain doesn't really hurt things that much. It's a convenience.

Before anyone jumps down my throat with "you're just bad at this game" or "sustain is easy" you are probably part of the group that has already achieved relative mastery of combat in this game so you are not the ones that this change is for. It's for people trying to get to this level. Also I do plenty of endgame raiding in multiple roles. I just remember what it was like when I was learning.

It has nothing to do with being good or bad. You need to understand that if sustain is alleviated in the manner you suggest, you have just effectively increased the dps top end threshold by a significant margin, which means end game encounters become that much easier for everyone and zos would have to rebalance encounters in terms of rage timers and health pools of boss fights. A 50 percent increase to sustain accross the board means more dps contributions from healers that wont need to slot resource utility, and dps builds that have to spend less time wasting GCDs on heavies.

As I said 50% was just a random number. I understand that it could cause other issues but the truth is that sustain is already happening with high end groups now. Your learning groups that have bad uptime of buffs and debuffs are the ones likely to have sustain issues right now. Again this was a wild thought because by making sustain consistently worse they are only penalizing lower skilled players. Top end players will always find a way unless you literally make something impossible. Even then they will create the best possible outcome and that will be meta.

Sustain in good groups comes also from the fact there are people there who are using some sets/abilities that are helping with it. Give everyone better base sustain and top groups will be able to give up even more sustain oriented solutions and pick damage instead resulting with even faster runs and bigger gap between top and casual groups.

Shantu · August 2020

Elsonso wrote: »

Shantu wrote: »

While I've learned do deal with them, I hate sustain issues. There's nothing that feels challenging or fun about it.

Oh, it can be plenty challenging. Fun, however, that is harder.

I meant the good kind of challenge..the kind you engage in for entertainment value. Not the kind you have to endure because you're disadvantaged in some way.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · August 2020

Elsonso wrote: »

My opinion: Players need to run out of resources more frequently during combat.

In PVP absolutely. That is what ultimately determines the outcome of two good players fighting each other. And maybe its just me, but a 10 minute stalemate is no fun.

In PVE, I disagree completely. End of the day, this game is about fun. It's no fun to just run out of resources mid fight while performing a decent rotation and having to hold down LMB to try and build resources. I am not suggesting it should be infinite sustain, but increasing base sustain in PVE would also certainly close the skill gap as OP suggested.

Taleof2Cities · August 2020

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

End of the day, this game is about fun. It's no fun to just run out of resources mid fight while performing a decent rotation and having to hold down LMB to try and build resources.

Players should be penalized in PvP for running out of resources ... but not in PvE??

Having fun does not mean dumbing down the game for players that don't practice their rotation, learn the mechanics, and build correctly.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the DPS loss for swapping more sustain into a character build is often not significant enough to be a barrier for content clears.

MorganaBlue · August 2020

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Here's an idea, @IonicKai:

What would happen if you added more sustain into your build ... instead of asking ZOS for a handout?

Please suggest to me how I can add more sustain to my build without having to gimp my DPS:

- Breton
- Perfected False God's
- Magwarden, so I keep up Netch
- Clockwork Citrus filet/Witchmothers up at all times
- Decent rotation where I'm not overcasting skills
- Spell power pots up 100% of the time

If I don't want to heavy attack constantly and constantly remain almost out of magicka, I need all six things I've listed above. I tried to drop Netch last night in a vMoL run and my sustain tanked. God forbid I try to use a set other than FGD.

In what universe is a build like mine necessary for comfortable sustain?

in a universe with synergies - they should be enough for you to sustain comfortably in raids. Especially this patch with orbs on most mag DD's bars, sustain should be a non-issue in an optimized group.

Onefrkncrzypope · August 2020

For the argument around top end pve benefiting from sustain, I disagree. Currently all top end groups don't invest much in sustain as is. They got damage jewelry enchants, all damage sets. Worst thing a sustain buff for pve top raid teams is more people in bi stat food. That's not enough to be scared of sustain changes.

Tie the sustain in resource returns from shards and bubbles. So in PvP it wouldn't change a thing.

Some classes might need a small bit of extra help but it would be less large changes to PvP.

Problem solved. Endgame players won't get much rewards from sustain changes.

Juhasow · August 2020

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

For the argument around top end pve benefiting from sustain, I disagree. Currently all top end groups don't invest much in sustain as is. They got damage jewelry enchants, all damage sets. Worst thing a sustain buff for pve top raid teams is more people in bi stat food. That's not enough to be scared of sustain changes.

Tie the sustain in resource returns from shards and bubbles. So in PvP it wouldn't change a thing.

Some classes might need a small bit of extra help but it would be less large changes to PvP.

Problem solved. Endgame players won't get much rewards from sustain changes.

It's more about healers taking off sustain supporting sets (like hollowfang etc) becase with higher base sustain those sets wouldn't be needed. And in place of said sets something damage oriented could be added into the sets composition which would increase effectiveness of top end groups by few more percent when less organised groups would still need sustain oriented suporting sets. At the end gap between more and less organised groups could be increased.

karekiz · August 2020

idk wrote: »

Considering part of the foundation of combat in ESO is managing resources instead of having cooldowns on the use of skills the idea does not make sense and pretty sure it will not happen.

Zos has already made it possible for people to have enough sustain. Either via well-organized groups or sacrificing damage stats for sustain.

Imagine that.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · August 2020

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

End of the day, this game is about fun. It's no fun to just run out of resources mid fight while performing a decent rotation and having to hold down LMB to try and build resources.

Players should be penalized in PvP for running out of resources ... but not in PvE??

Having fun does not mean dumbing down the game for players that don't practice their rotation, learn the mechanics, and build correctly.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the DPS loss for swapping more sustain into a character build is often not significant enough to be a barrier for content clears.

@Taleof2Cities not quite what I am saying, but I do get your comment. In PVP, we need players to run out of resources to force the action and ultimately determine the outcome of fights, especially when two good players are going at it.

In PVE, it's a little bit different. I am certainly not advocating for infinite sustain, but I also don't think you should have to bend over backwards to make a a rotation work, especially from a DPS perspective. I think you should be generally able to build for max damage and sustain a typical rotation with reasonable support.

We are there for the most part on most classes, but we have been pretty far from it in the past. I don't think DPS should need to slot skills like spell sym or engage in lots of heavy attacks just to make their rotation work. Now of course, if your rotation is bad or you arent good at mechanics, you will probably over cast skills, over shield, over block and over dodge roll, and that can and SHOULD negatively impact your sustain.

In other words, I think there should be an optimal rotation for every class and spec that can be sustained at least long enough for a trial dummy, without having to make any hard sacrifices to your gear or rotation for the purposes of sustain. I do not think that you should be able to stand in stupid and poorly play mechanics without resource issues. Does that make sense?

p00tx · August 2020

I actually agree with OP that sustain is a big barrier that divides midgame from endgame, along with overall dmg. This is less due to individual sustain and build though, and more to the goofy support builds in midgame. Those of us who do fine with sustain in endgame do so only because support makes sure to dial in their builds to benefit the group as much as possible, rather than just wearing the set with the coolest looking animation. We keep up elemental drain and wear sets like Symphony and Hollowfang and Worm, with both healers and tanks participating in this group sustain practice.

The biggest problem I run into as a dps in pug groups full of beginners and midgame players is a lack of this kind of group synergy play. I usually have to slot my own ele drain and count on not having any sustain sets in the group, barring the occasional wonderful healer in Hollowfang (bless you for that). The problem with giving these groups access to more sustain is that it de-incentivizes these players from moving up into more effective builds that benefit the group, and these changes would also trickle upward into end game where the sustain sets would no longer be needed, allowing support to pack on even more dmg modifier sets, pushing power creep through the roof and signaling another round of goofy nerfs from Zos, which would (as usual) hit the midgame players the hardest and we'd be back to square one.

Inyhel · August 2020

I don't think PvE needs to be made any easier than it already is.
I run solo and do everything myself. Learning how to manage resources and completing group dungeons all by my lonesome has been challenging and fun.

Arjuna1696 · August 2020

If it's too feasible to have infinite sustain / to not need to worry about sustain, it follows that there's little point in even having a resource at all. Might as well just cast skills for free and optimize the order and frequency with which you cast them. Sustain is already alarmingly easy in this game - but players often, for whatever reason, expect to be able to execute the highest dps rotation possible for entire minutes on end without running out of resources.

It's sensible and important for players to need to be thoughtful about their resources - for them to need to make smart sacrifices and choices to optimize dps & sustain. Rather than asking ZoS to adjust sustain, players should adjust their attitudes to expect and accept this very reasonable mechanic. A mechanic, I might add, with an ENORMOUS amount of precedent in games. (edit: grammar)

Everest_Lionheart · August 2020

Arjuna1696 wrote: »

If it's too feasible to have infinite sustain / to not need to worry about sustain, it follows that there's little point in even having a resource at all. Might as well just cast skills for free and optimize the order and frequency with which you cast them. Sustain is already alarmingly easy in this game - but players often, for whatever reason, expect to be able to execute the highest dps rotation possible for entire minutes on end without running out of resources.

It's sensible and important for players to need to be thoughtful about their resources - for them to need to make smart sacrifices and choices to optimize dps & sustain. Rather than asking ZoS to adjust sustain, players should adjust their attitudes to expect and accept this very reasonable mechanic. A mechanic, I might add, with an ENORMOUS amount of precedent in games. (edit: grammar)

My magplar and MagDK both have no real sustain issues when I’m parsing because of parse food and neither of them are cheesing it with BFB either. I can quite literally parse all day on the 21mil dummy drinking trash pots. Stamwarden is pretty close to that same level using blue food needs to heavy attack once every 3rd rotation from 50% to 25% to keep enough gas in the tank for execute phase but that doesn’t hurt the numbers too bad.

In the real world though where you are running different food and probably extra shields/heals on your bar things will work differently. You’ll also have various mechanics to deal with where you may be able to recover like blocking against certain bosses where if you are a magicka toon your mag pool gets a break for a few seconds. Stam toon you are out of luck though.

Bottom line sustain is fine.

RebornV3x · August 2020

Anytime you raise the floor and lower the ceiling it always has the opposite effect the harder you make things for the top tier players the worse it will be for everyone else. sustain should be higher across the board doing heavy attacks just don't really flow with the combat system they have implemented into the game.

nerfing something should only be used as a last resort to balance nobody a wants to farm gear for it be useless next month nobody what to get weaker with every patch my character in 2017/2018 would absolute destroy my character today.

honey_badger82 · August 2020

I can feel the OPs pain, it is a very tight line that needs to be walked. Just last night on my Imperial Templar Tank FB, DPS BB I did normal scalecaller peak for a pledge. All others in the pug were below CP400. I ended up using my stamina to 1. Tank 2. Self heal 3. do higher damage than the other 2 dps and healer combined (our healer thought they was dps light the whole time causing several unnecessary wipes). That character has 1200 stam sustain on top of red diamond racial passive, undaunted passive and 2pc towards heavy armor passive. My rune gives another 240 every second. All this to include drink and stam pots still had me heavy attacking quite often. When I am in a good group on the flip side sustain is an afterthought. I am usually able to sprint through the dungeon with the magicka players because someone drops a synergy in front of me before each battle.
Now my stamplar dps... his sustain is much more of an issue as it is with my orc stamden wearing New Moon. Since I managed to get a grundwulf helm I will see how that works on my stamden since its bow/bow.