Crazy Idea: Make sustain easier in PVE

IonicKai

So over the course of my playing this game I have watched ZOS claim that they wanted to raise the floor while lowering the ceiling (spoiler alert they have done the opposite). One of the biggest things they have pushed in order to lower the ceiling is sustain nerfs.

Here's the problem with using harsh sustain as a means of curbing top end. Your best players will figure out the optimal combination of sustain and damage. They will walk a tight rope most normal players cannot. Your more average players however suffer greatly when sustain is a tight rope. They are going to mess up rotations which means ability overcast and higher resource drain. This serves to further the gap between the floor/midtier players and top end players.

Suggestion. Raise base recovery by 50% with an appropriate 50% nerf in battle spirit to avoid affecting PvP. Also buff sustain food (witch mother's/ clockwork citrus and dubious/artaeum takeaway) to their values before your last nerf in I believe the Elswyr or wrathstone patch.

Doing this would not change much endgame as top end players would just be happy sustain was slightly more convenient but to your midtier players this would be a massive buff. They would actually be able to do the rotos without bleeding all their resources and being stuck heavy attacking for massive damage loss.

50% was just a number to experiment with but the idea is that sustain is way too harsh and over sustain doesn't really hurt things that much. It's a convenience.

Before anyone jumps down my throat with "you're just bad at this game" or "sustain is easy" you are probably part of the group that has already achieved relative mastery of combat in this game so you are not the ones that this change is for. It's for people trying to get to this level. Also I do plenty of endgame raiding in multiple roles. I just remember what it was like when I was learning.

Elsonso

My opinion: Players need to run out of resources more frequently during combat.

IonicKai

Elsonso wrote: »

My opinion: Players need to run out of resources more frequently during combat.

Fair but why? How does that bridge the gap? Also it has been pretty popular opinion that most players don't like heavy attack rotos because it slows down combat.

Taleof2Cities

Here's an idea, @IonicKai:

What would happen if you added more sustain into your build ... instead of asking ZOS for a handout?

Elsonso

I draw from this, which is also interesting from the whole Cyrodiil AoE perspective...

"Our combat system features fast-paced action where resource management plays a large part in performing effectively. Player abilities in ESO specifically do not have cooldowns for this very reason - resource management is a core pillar of the system. Due to the number of balance changes we’ve made over time, this core pillar of resource management has become trivialized in that it’s become easier than ever to have nearly infinite sustainability while still being fully maximized for damage. The overall goal here is to have a combat system that reinforces decision making and resource management."

Now, it seems that ZOS has a hard time sticking to that concept, and the mix of things that they have added since that statement contribute to there being too much sustain, allowing resources to always be available whenever the player wants to use a skill that requires them. This appears to be the real problem in Cyrodiil.

Rather than making it easier to sustain, and thus maintain that resource pool, they should be going the opposite direction. It should be considerably harder to maintain resources. PVE and PVP.

karekiz

Elsonso wrote: »

Rather than making it easier to sustain, and thus maintain that resource pool, they should be going the opposite direction. It should be considerably harder to maintain resources. PVE and PVP.

Elder Scrolls Classic Server is what I read

Mortiis13

With zero investment into sustain. 3 fully dmg sets on different stam and mag classes I have zero sustain issues as long as the group spams their synergies and magicka steal debuffs. So I don't think their is any need to dumb the combat down any more.

This game shouldn't be balanced around unorganized pug Groupes, where everyone behave like they are playing solo with 3 bots...

IonicKai

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Here's an idea, @IonicKai:

What would happen if you added more sustain into your build ... instead of asking ZOS for a handout?

I'm not asking for a handout. I'm fine I don't have sustain issues. For those that clearly didn't bother to read the post I'm not who this is for either.....

IonicKai

I'm trying to propose that if ZOS genuinely wants to raise the floor then this is a possible step in that direction. As I said i don't think this is the case for PvP but for PVE sustain sets cripple damage and just further the gap between endgame and the majority of players.

ZOS has been trying to raise the floor while lowering the ceiling for quite awhile now and almost every change they have done has had the opposite effect. It has made it so that only skilled players are capable while those learning get punished.

IonicKai

Mortiis13 wrote: »

With zero investment into sustain. 3 fully dmg sets on different stam and mag classes I have zero sustain issues as long as the group spams their synergies and magicka steal debuffs. So I don't think their is any need to dumb the combat down any more.

This game shouldn't be balanced around unorganized pug Groupes, where everyone behave like they are playing solo with 3 bots...

What about semi organized groups that are learning. Should they be hopelessly screwed until they improve dramatically. That's pretty discouraging and is why so many people feel shunned out of endgame content. Again for those that are already capable this isn't going to change much. It might be a slight buff or open up some specialized options in certain fights but for those that are learning and don't have perfect group play I think this would help them a lot.

SidraWillowsky

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Here's an idea, @IonicKai:

What would happen if you added more sustain into your build ... instead of asking ZOS for a handout?

Please suggest to me how I can add more sustain to my build without having to gimp my DPS:

- Breton
- Perfected False God's
- Magwarden, so I keep up Netch
- Clockwork Citrus filet/Witchmothers up at all times
- Decent rotation where I'm not overcasting skills
- Spell power pots up 100% of the time

If I don't want to heavy attack constantly and constantly remain almost out of magicka, I need all six things I've listed above. I tried to drop Netch last night in a vMoL run and my sustain tanked. God forbid I try to use a set other than FGD.

In what universe is a build like mine necessary for comfortable sustain?

Red_Feather

I prefer how guild wars 1 did resource management. It was skill based. Theorycrafting resource gain was big fun. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Auspicious_Incantation

Mindcr0w

If they really want to lower the ceiling while raising the floor they should just lower LA damage and increase ability damage by reasonable amounts respectively.

The best of the best with perfect weaving rotations are still at the top, just by a less wide margin.

Those with imperfect rotations are still at a relative disadvantage, but a smaller one.

Problem solved.

newtinmpls

Sustain will come back right after softcaps

Everest_Lionheart

Honestly you can build for it but the game itself doesn’t really teach you how. Many of the folks sharing guides and builds online don’t really teach it either. I finally learned how to do it on each of my toons after a few weeks of playing them and getting some pointers from guilds mates.

Stamina sustain I found easier than magicka. But each class has skills built in to help. Some weapon line skills do as well.

Keep in mind CP plays a fairly big role in this too. The extra recovery you get makes a difference between getting in the cast of the extra skills to kill the enemy quicker. Dead enemies = no need for more sustain.

Danksta

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Here's an idea, @IonicKai:

What would happen if you added more sustain into your build ... instead of asking ZOS for a handout?

Please suggest to me how I can add more sustain to my build without having to gimp my DPS:

- Breton
- Perfected False God's
- Magwarden, so I keep up Netch
- Clockwork Citrus filet/Witchmothers up at all times
- Decent rotation where I'm not overcasting skills
- Spell power pots up 100% of the time

If I don't want to heavy attack constantly and constantly remain almost out of magicka, I need all six things I've listed above. I tried to drop Netch last night in a vMoL run and my sustain tanked. God forbid I try to use a set other than FGD.

In what universe is a build like mine necessary for comfortable sustain?

B4B, well until it gets nerfed next patch. Wouldn't even need to gimp your dps with breton and regen food.

SodanTok

Sustain is way too easy already. It needs to be made harder, bit by nerfing individual sustain (or at least standardizing it) and bit more by nerfing group tools.

Large piece of combat mechanics that made this game great is missing when what gives most damage is the only thing considered instead of the 3 way balance of damage, sustain and defense.

Shantu

While I've learned do deal with them, I hate sustain issues. There's nothing that feels challenging or fun about it.

Elsonso

Shantu wrote: »

While I've learned do deal with them, I hate sustain issues. There's nothing that feels challenging or fun about it.

Oh, it can be plenty challenging. Fun, however, that is harder.

Juhasow

IonicKai wrote: »

Mortiis13 wrote: »

With zero investment into sustain. 3 fully dmg sets on different stam and mag classes I have zero sustain issues as long as the group spams their synergies and magicka steal debuffs. So I don't think their is any need to dumb the combat down any more.

This game shouldn't be balanced around unorganized pug Groupes, where everyone behave like they are playing solo with 3 bots...

What about semi organized groups that are learning. Should they be hopelessly screwed until they improve dramatically. That's pretty discouraging and is why so many people feel shunned out of endgame content. Again for those that are already capable this isn't going to change much. It might be a slight buff or open up some specialized options in certain fights but for those that are learning and don't have perfect group play I think this would help them a lot.

Semi organised groups that are learning should learn how to sustian. Isn't learning how to sustain one of the core points of said groups ? Oh and btw it's not a sustain that causes most of the failuers in said groups.

There is plenty of setups with easy rotations and sustain that allows to pull more then enough DPS to complete every veteran content. Most of the failuers in semi organised groups is caused by people making mistakes in mechanics not by issues with sustain.

IonicKai

Mindcr0w wrote: »

If they really want to lower the ceiling while raising the floor they should just lower LA damage and increase ability damage by reasonable amounts respectively.

The best of the best with perfect weaving rotations are still at the top, just by a less wide margin.

Those with imperfect rotations are still at a relative disadvantage, but a smaller one.

Problem solved.

I have proposed this before too but it does have PvP complications. Whatever buff they do to the skills would have to be corrected in battle spirit.

Runefang

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Here's an idea, @IonicKai:

What would happen if you added more sustain into your build ... instead of asking ZOS for a handout?

Please suggest to me how I can add more sustain to my build without having to gimp my DPS:

- Breton
- Perfected False God's
- Magwarden, so I keep up Netch
- Clockwork Citrus filet/Witchmothers up at all times
- Decent rotation where I'm not overcasting skills
- Spell power pots up 100% of the time

If I don't want to heavy attack constantly and constantly remain almost out of magicka, I need all six things I've listed above. I tried to drop Netch last night in a vMoL run and my sustain tanked. God forbid I try to use a set other than FGD.

In what universe is a build like mine necessary for comfortable sustain?

I'd say your problem is the supports in your group then. My Magden sustains fine as a high elf in PFG with purple health/mag food and almost no heavies.

IonicKai

Juhasow wrote: »

IonicKai wrote: »

Mortiis13 wrote: »

With zero investment into sustain. 3 fully dmg sets on different stam and mag classes I have zero sustain issues as long as the group spams their synergies and magicka steal debuffs. So I don't think their is any need to dumb the combat down any more.

This game shouldn't be balanced around unorganized pug Groupes, where everyone behave like they are playing solo with 3 bots...

What about semi organized groups that are learning. Should they be hopelessly screwed until they improve dramatically. That's pretty discouraging and is why so many people feel shunned out of endgame content. Again for those that are already capable this isn't going to change much. It might be a slight buff or open up some specialized options in certain fights but for those that are learning and don't have perfect group play I think this would help them a lot.

Semi organised groups that are learning should learn how to sustian. Isn't learning how to sustain one of the core points of said groups ? Oh and btw it's not a sustain that causes most of the failuers in said groups.

There is plenty of setups with easy rotations and sustain that allows to pull more then enough DPS to complete every veteran content. Most of the failuers in semi organised groups is caused by people making mistakes in mechanics not by issues with sustain.

You are right it's usually mechanic screw ups that wipe but if DPS is significantly lower because they can't sustain (and heavy attacking to get it back/not dropping dots), they are dealing with more mechanics then it goes back to my point. This happens regularly in learning groups that aren't high level and haven't fully optimized. They are getting punished by both lack of DPS (contributed by lack of sustain) and harder mechanics because they have lower DPS.

Edit: typo

IonicKai

Fundamentally the higher level your group is (DPS, support capability, etc) the easier the trial gets. Sustain directly affects DPS which has a big impact on length of fights and the amount of mechanics you need to deal with. People who are learning and aren't hitting really high DPS or are compromising their damage to sustain (because they don't know better or lack the group play for it) are disproportionately getting punished. To the nay sayers what would be so bad about having sustain you didn't need. It doesn't negatively impact you at all...

Again I don't need this for me I can adjust to ZOS nerfs even if it is begrudgingly. I want ZOS to take a look at their changes and try a different approach. I could be completely wrong. This could absolutely break the game but what's the harm in trying the experiment. Let people see what it's like to be able to sustain without perfect group play and mastered rotations.

karekiz

WTB redesigned Kyne's Wind to basically be a 5 piece Symphony of Blades.

That is all.

Wandering_Immigrant

Sustaining in this game is not complex. For the most part you don't even need to do much to maintain a high level of sustain it's just a matter of not wasting resources. For people who do need a little assistance there's plenty of items, sets and abilities that can ease the burden for you while you learn.

If someone doesn't grasp the mechanics of resource management enough to complete higher end content then they simply don't belong in that content yet.

This is the only MMO I've ever played where people are so vehemently attached to the idea that a fresh player just starting off in group content should be given all the advantages of people who've been playing and practicing at getting better while working their way up. I don't get it, I guess it's tied to One Tamriel and level synch allowing you to go anywhere at any time, people think they should also get a pass on player skill. But there still has to be some sort of learning curve, some sort of personal progession, otherwise what's the point of even having tiered dungeons, just wipe all normals modes and make everything vet, that should cut down on queue times at least.

It might sound like I'm overreacting, it's only sustain. But like I said at the start, sustain is already easy, it's really basic level understanding of the game's combat, to the point where most moderately experienced players are able to all but ignore it and get by just fine. I'm by no means a top tier player, but I never heavy attack, I don't wear sustain sets, I just have resources. So what's next do we put ramps next to all the staircases, because if so they need to create a barrell-roll emote or I'll be sorely disappointed.

Juhasow

IonicKai wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

IonicKai wrote: »

Mortiis13 wrote: »

With zero investment into sustain. 3 fully dmg sets on different stam and mag classes I have zero sustain issues as long as the group spams their synergies and magicka steal debuffs. So I don't think their is any need to dumb the combat down any more.

This game shouldn't be balanced around unorganized pug Groupes, where everyone behave like they are playing solo with 3 bots...

What about semi organized groups that are learning. Should they be hopelessly screwed until they improve dramatically. That's pretty discouraging and is why so many people feel shunned out of endgame content. Again for those that are already capable this isn't going to change much. It might be a slight buff or open up some specialized options in certain fights but for those that are learning and don't have perfect group play I think this would help them a lot.

Semi organised groups that are learning should learn how to sustian. Isn't learning how to sustain one of the core points of said groups ? Oh and btw it's not a sustain that causes most of the failuers in said groups.

There is plenty of setups with easy rotations and sustain that allows to pull more then enough DPS to complete every veteran content. Most of the failuers in semi organised groups is caused by people making mistakes in mechanics not by issues with sustain.

You are right it's usually mechanic screw ups that wipe but if DPS is significantly lower because they can't sustain (and heavy attacking to get it back/not dropping dots), they are dealing with more mechanics then it goes back to my point. This happens regularly in learning groups that aren't high level and haven't fully optimized. They are getting punished by both lack of DPS (contributed by lack of sustain) and harder mechanics because they have lower DPS.

Edit: typo

More repeats of certain mechanics = more chances to learn it. More time spend with certain mechaniocs = more time to learn them. Simple. And lower DPS in semi organised groups is not caused mainly by sustain issues. You're making it like there is only one issue for less experienced players and that is sustain when in reality bad sustain is an outcome of less organised playstyle not the reason for it. When people learn how to play their sustain improves. Giving higher sustain to the people right at the beggining could even backfire at them by making them worse players in general. For people who are really struggling with DPS and sustain atm it wouldn't change much because their issues with DPS and sustain usually are not coming from too low base regen. There is an old saying which says "give the starving man a fish and he'll eat it and then he'll be hungry again , but give him a fishing rod and he'll catch the fishes for himnself". What You're trying to accomplish is giving everyone a fish.

ThePedge

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Here's an idea, @IonicKai:

What would happen if you added more sustain into your build ... instead of asking ZOS for a handout?

Please suggest to me how I can add more sustain to my build without having to gimp my DPS:

- Breton
- Perfected False God's
- Magwarden, so I keep up Netch
- Clockwork Citrus filet/Witchmothers up at all times
- Decent rotation where I'm not overcasting skills
- Spell power pots up 100% of the time

If I don't want to heavy attack constantly and constantly remain almost out of magicka, I need all six things I've listed above. I tried to drop Netch last night in a vMoL run and my sustain tanked. God forbid I try to use a set other than FGD.

In what universe is a build like mine necessary for comfortable sustain?

High Elf for more damage
Blood for Blood for more damage and sustain

Onefrkncrzypope

With b4b gone there are classes that can't sustain their dps kit while other classes can. It would be super if ZoS could just make stat out = stat gain on the trial dummy.

erio

its not really fun to not do anything for a few seconds

Everest_Lionheart

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

With b4b gone there are classes that can't sustain their dps kit while other classes can. It would be super if ZoS could just make stat out = stat gain on the trial dummy.

It’s a hard DPS nerf for sure but it needed to happen. Unlimited sustain is bad and BFB meta proved that.

We all want more sustain in fact sustain is what’s holding my Stamwarden back at the moment. If I didn’t have to grab 2 heavy attacks every 3rd rotation my damage would be much higher, than it is now. Those 2 heavies allow me to focus when it’s time to execute because there is just enough gas in the tank to get me over the finish line. That’s the trade though damage for sustain it’s a good balance and brings more skill to the table rather than making it a button mashing race.