Pledges and Daily Random Bonus - Split the rewards into three groups by difficulty

Dusk_Coven · July 2020

EDIT: Revised format

Instead of the distinction between Dungeons as being Normal or Veteran, we pool both types together and divide them by Difficulty: Easy, Medium, and Hard based on statistics of how frequently parties disband instead of completing the dungeon successfully.

Further, the reward structure for Daily Random and Pledges is changed:

Players can still queue for any dungeon, but they can also queue for a group of dungeons by Difficulty.
Players can only pick up two Undaunted Pledges per day from a pool of six: Two Easy Dungeons, two Medium Dungeons, and two Hard Dungeons. Ideally, players who are competent at harder dungeons will naturally choose pledges from the higher difficulty dungeons. If they are in over their head they can drop the Pledge and choose an easier one.
By limiting the Pledges but expanding the options, we encourage players to choose what fits the time they have or their ability if they want more rewards. Instead of trying to get all Pledges even if they are not experienced and geared enough to do certain Pledges; or choosing a too-easy Pledge and disrupting players who are trying to learn dungeons at that level.
Undaunted Pledges provide Keys according to difficulty: 1 Key for Easy, 2 Keys for Medium, 3 Keys for Hard, plus one Key for completing a dungeon in Hard Mode.
Daily Random Dungeon will give more rewards if a harder dungeon is picked.

Original:

Suppose the dungeons were sorted into three difficulty groups -- Easy, Medium, and Hard.
Everyone can queue anything at anytime, BUT you cannot necessarily get Undaunted Keys or Daily Random Bonus unless you are in the "correct" difficulty group.
Everyone starts in Easy and cannot get rewards from Medium or Hard dungeons. Easy awards 1 key.
You can be promoted to Medium if you successfully complete a Medium dungeon with certain achievements (e.g., no death run). At that point, you can no longer earn Undaunted Keys or Daily Random Bonus from Easy dungeons. Medium awards 2 keys.
You can be promoted to Hard if you successfully complete a Hard dungeon with certain achievements. At that point you can no longer earn Undaunted Keys or Daily Random Bonus from Easy or Medium Dungeons. Hard awards 3 keys.

(EDIT: made promotion optional, not mandatory, so players can stay in lower difficulty)

If you cheat the system and get a carry, good luck to you in getting future keys. Get good fast.

The net effect is to sort players into "leagues" -- Those who think they are top tier can stay in Hard and when they try to Group Finder a team for a Pledge or Daily Random, they will hopefully get people who are ready for those dungeons.
Players who are still entry level can learn with those at a similar level without having some over-qualified person mess up their run.

mobicera · August 2020

Sounds like you need to find people to run with.
This idea isn't very good, it will just lengthen que times and frustrate people starting out.
If you have a problem with the quality of pugs then simply stop running with pugs.
I mean if you "got good" then people seek you out to run with you right?
I don't see what the point of this is, or really the problem at hand, when the solution is easy and more fun.

redgreensunset · August 2020

So if you by chance or because you don't understand the system queue "above your pay grade" and someone carries you through you're permanently screwed? Awful system, back to the drawing board.

tomofhyrule · August 2020

I think the best thing to do would just be bump Urgarlag's keys by one.

A nDLC is about the difficuly level of a vet basegame, especially the later ones that have intense mechanics and OHKO trash even on normal. If you do one of those for a pledge, I think that should definitely be worth more than running nFGI. Especially the hardmode from a vDLC? Oof.

If you wanted to be sadistic, you could drop it so that a nBase gives 0 keys, vBase gives 1, vBaseHM gives 2, nDLC gives 1, vDLC gives 2, and vDLCHM gives 3.

Dusk_Coven · August 2020

tomofhyrule wrote: »

If you wanted to be sadistic, you could drop it so that a nBase gives 0 keys, vBase gives 1, vBaseHM gives 2, nDLC gives 1, vDLC gives 2, and vDLCHM gives 3.

One of the problems with this is you can't simply use those distinctions.
veteran hard mode Fungal Grotto 1 isn't a huge difficulty jump from an entry level normal Dungeon.
And without trying to separate players by qualification, you get fake tanks and fake heals queueing for veteran Scalecaller Peak somehow hoping for a carry just because it's the Pledge that day for 2-3 keys, when really they have no idea at all of even normal SCP.
This qualification system tries to make it unattractive to fake at all.

mobicera wrote: »

Sounds like you need to find people to run with.
This idea isn't very good, it will just lengthen que times and frustrate people starting out.

People can still help you out, but people who are specifically looking for a hard dungeon pledge won't get matched with fakes looking for a carry because those fakes won't get a key and wouldn't want to queue for them in the first place.

Look at the forums for people wanting separate difficulty queues. This is an attempt to sort people into the difficulty modes they want. If you don't want to be promoted to a harder difficulty, don't accept the promotion.

If you carry people knowing that they aren't qualified and just want to be in a higher difficulty -- to get even more carries in the future -- who's fault is that?

mobicera · August 2020

Just don't pug.
This is pointless and probably just a thinly veiled example of elitism and segregation, that would solve nothing and simply create more issues queing.

All the [snip] about the "carries" can be solved by the extremely simple solution, just stop pugging...

[Edited to remove Profanity]

Dusk_Coven · August 2020

mobicera wrote: »

Just don't pug.
This is pointless and probably just a thinly veiled example of elitism and segregation, that would solve nothing and simply create more issues queing.

All the [snip] about the "carries" can be solved by the extremely simple solution, just stop pugging...

[snip]

High-powered toons are the problem in easier dungeons where new players are trying to learn. They should be getting matched with similar players who are queued for the proper roles so they can learn and do the roles. Not have some fake tank/fake healer bulldoze through, leaving them to die from the adds while the fake finishes the dungeon.

Sorting players into leagues tries to address this issue too.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Xebov · August 2020

This is a very good example for ideas that are based on anger and are not thought through. Your idea would cause more issues than it would solve.

Dusk_Coven · August 2020

Xebov wrote: »

This is a very good example for ideas that are based on anger and are not thought through. Your idea would cause more issues than it would solve.

So you admit that it would actually solve some problems?
What issues would it raise then?

the1andonlyskwex · August 2020

Everyone will just try to do the hard ones and things will be even worse than they are now (except that people who can complete the hard versions will get twice as many keys).

Dusk_Coven · August 2020

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Everyone will just try to do the hard ones and things will be even worse than they are now (except that people who can complete the hard versions will get twice as many keys).

Until they smarten up when they waste too much time and just go to a lower difficulty.
Worst case, it won't be any worse than it is now. But smart players get another option. And all players are more likely to get an appropriate team for the difficulty they choose.

redspecter23 · August 2020

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Everyone will just try to do the hard ones and things will be even worse than they are now (except that people who can complete the hard versions will get twice as many keys).

Until they smarten up when they waste too much time and just go to a lower difficulty.
Worst case, it won't be any worse than it is now. But smart players get another option. And all players are more likely to get an appropriate team for the difficulty they choose.

I don't think you understand how the minds of many people work. They see more reward. They instantly want that reward, whether they are ready, prepared or not. They may even be incapable of realizing they aren't set up for that content properly at all. They will get booted repeatedly then come to the forums and complain they got removed for "no reason at all". Cognitive bias or something along those lines.

It's the reason you get 4k dps "masters" in vet trials or "tanks" with less survivability than a tissue paper in a pepper factory. It's the mentality that they just want the better things and have absolutely no consideration of their abilities or how they may be hurting the group they are running with. This is what pugs are very, very often.

This is the core issue that could ideally be addressed, but I think it's so ingrained in the minds of many people that simply changing mechanics to force a complete mental adjustment can't work on any level. It's a sense of entitlement worked into their brain from birth.

Xebov · August 2020

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

So you admit that it would actually solve some problems?
What issues would it raise then?

No, i said it would cause more issues than it would solve. That doenst mean that it solves anything to begin with.

What you want to solve here is that players do dungeons unprepared. With your suggestion you wouldnt change that at all. They would and could still do it. The only thing you would accomplish is bullying them out of the game.

Your suggestion would limit all players to 1/3 of the available dungeons for rewards and everyone raising up would get stuck. Essentially you would pool all the clueless ppl into the highest difficulty over time getting them stuck and also increasing the preasure on players that regularly do them because all the clueless ppl would be pooled with them, which makes their experience even worse.

Like i said its one of these half thought through ideas that come from anger about a problem and completely ignore what causes the problem. You try to solve the issue on the complete wrong end.

Integral1900 · August 2020

Not sure about the system but the current one just isn’t working

You get the exact same rewards from a random regardless of whether it’s fungal grotto or Marsh of Sacrifice

That makes no sense at all

Dusk_Coven · August 2020

Xebov wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

So you admit that it would actually solve some problems?
What issues would it raise then?

No, i said it would cause more issues than it would solve. That doenst mean that it solves anything to begin with.

What you want to solve here is that players do dungeons unprepared.

WRONG. Don't make assumptions. Try reading it first.

idk · August 2020

mobicera wrote: »

Sounds like you need to find people to run with.

I agree with this comment.
'
Things are already split by difficulty with normal, vet, and vet HM. The third pledge is essentially a bonus pledge and already considered to be an increase in difficulty being it is DLC.

idk · August 2020

Integral1900 wrote: »

Not sure about the system but the current one just isn’t working

You get the exact same rewards from a random regardless of whether it’s fungal grotto or Marsh of Sacrifice

That makes no sense at all

I have suggested before that there be an opt-in for the DLC dungeons when queueing for a random. For those that opt-in they get higher level rewards that is scaled by how many DLC dungeons they have access to with the max reward being a gold version of the current rewards.

It is a win-win for players and Zos. Players get to choose their risk and Zos continues to encourage players to include DLC dungeons to ensure when players queue for them that they have a chance of getting players to fill the group.