I can name at least 10 people in my guild (probably more) that don't do daily BGs because of this. IT would encourage way more to do them daily... esepcially on PS4 where the BG community is already tiny.

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

There needs to be incentive for try to play well when attempting the daily. Otherwise there will be an AFK problem.

Sometimes you get unlucky, but coming in first or second should happen about 2/3 of the time on average. If your personal average seem significantly lower, there maybe be a particular 25% of your team's composition that need improvement.

I average 20+ kills per match... but sometimes, you can just get unlucky and end up in some terrible groups. It just happens. You can't carry 3 other players, espeically if you're up against teams comprising of 2 or 3 top players in each.

Right now, I've been sitting in Random BG queue on PS4 for 30 mins without it popping... that means... if I don't get my random done first or even second or third time... I could be looking at a time sink of 3+ hours to get it done. THAT is discouraging WAY more than the "incentive" to come in 1st or 2nd....

Rittings wrote: »

Plus... going afk for a minute or 2 in a BG will see you booted from it anways.

I didn't literally mean AFK, I just meant showing up and doing little more than wiggling around.

As far as queue times go, on Xbox NA, I always restart the queue if it goes longer than 10 mins. It usually finds a match fairly quickly after doing so. I don't claim to have special knowledge about the inner working of ZOS's matchmaking system, but it seems like a 10+ min queue indicates there is something "wrong." Restarting the queue would presumably fix it. That seems to work for me, anecdotally at least.

The XP reward needs to be removed.
Sadly it entices the wrong types of people (lowbies, newbies and PvE carebears) looking for a leveling boost.

Lowbies and newbies can learn elsewhere, in a less competitive scenario. 1 newbie in a zerg of 20 is 5% of your team. 1 newbie in a team of 4 in an objective gamemode is 25% of your team. It's far more crippling.
And PvE carebears? You think I'm being mean? Lets see you bring a CP200 newbie with questing gear to your Vet Sunspire Trial. Yeah, don't think so.
"Oh, PvPers are so exclusionary!" Yeah? Go try out for Hodor and get back to me.
No one likes having their hard work wasted, whether it's a contribution to an endgame raid, or a PvP match, or anything else.

Everyone is new, everyone needs to learn somewhere, but not where a single weak link can mean a pointless struggle for three other people.

LinearParadox wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

LinearParadox wrote: »

The XP reward needs to be removed.
Sadly it entices the wrong types of people (lowbies, newbies and PvE carebears) looking for a leveling boost.

Lowbies and newbies can learn elsewhere, in a less competitive scenario. 1 newbie in a zerg of 20 is 5% of your team. 1 newbie in a team of 4 in an objective gamemode is 25% of your team. It's far more crippling.
And PvE carebears? You think I'm being mean? Lets see you bring a CP200 newbie with questing gear to your Vet Sunspire Trial. Yeah, don't think so.
"Oh, PvPers are so exclusionary!" Yeah? Go try out for Hodor and get back to me.
No one likes having their hard work wasted, whether it's a contribution to an endgame raid, or a PvP match, or anything else.

Everyone is new, everyone needs to learn somewhere, but not where a single weak link can mean a pointless struggle for three other people.

In an ideal situation, the MMR system should cover most of those concerns. An MMR that works combined with a healthy large community should see none of these issues. If extremely weak players are being put into BG's with extremely good, experienced players, the core issue is a failing of the MMR system.

The concerns you list are valid, but basically shouldn't occur to begin with on a large enough scale to notice over and over unless the MMR is broken (which is easy enough to believe).

True.
I personally believe that, yes, the MMR system is broken (or perhaps not even their) or simply unable to operate because of a lack of players.
As the phrase goes "beggars can't be choosers" and if there's only a handful of players waiting in queue at any given time, then the system can't "choose" who to put where, it has to just make a lobby out of what it has available. The only alternative there would be astronomical queue times that no one would stand for.
Most MMR-based Matchmaker systems have "releases" built into them, where they go for an optimal match for x amount of time, then if none can be made/found, they "release" those limiters and just make do with what they've got.

I simply cannot believe that, under the effects of a properly functioning MMR system, a player like me (capable of 1mill damage, 20+ kill games, etc. across both mag and stam versions of multiple classes) would be matched with someone that goes 0/14 with less than 50K damage done by the end of a game.
And before anyone thinks I'm just being a jerk, if I was that player, I'd be pissed at being thrown into the shark tank!

I agree, but from the other side. I'm not great at PVP, but I'd love to learn in an environment that is balanced against my skill level. Getting tossed into a BG and getting rolled repeatedly by someone that ends up 20-0 isn't something I want to do regularly. If I knew the MMR would work and place me with players of my own skill level, I'd be far more likely to hit that queue button.

redgreensunset wrote: »

LinearParadox wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

LinearParadox wrote: »

The XP reward needs to be removed.
Sadly it entices the wrong types of people (lowbies, newbies and PvE carebears) looking for a leveling boost.

Lowbies and newbies can learn elsewhere, in a less competitive scenario. 1 newbie in a zerg of 20 is 5% of your team. 1 newbie in a team of 4 in an objective gamemode is 25% of your team. It's far more crippling.
And PvE carebears? You think I'm being mean? Lets see you bring a CP200 newbie with questing gear to your Vet Sunspire Trial. Yeah, don't think so.
"Oh, PvPers are so exclusionary!" Yeah? Go try out for Hodor and get back to me.
No one likes having their hard work wasted, whether it's a contribution to an endgame raid, or a PvP match, or anything else.

Everyone is new, everyone needs to learn somewhere, but not where a single weak link can mean a pointless struggle for three other people.

In an ideal situation, the MMR system should cover most of those concerns. An MMR that works combined with a healthy large community should see none of these issues. If extremely weak players are being put into BG's with extremely good, experienced players, the core issue is a failing of the MMR system.

The concerns you list are valid, but basically shouldn't occur to begin with on a large enough scale to notice over and over unless the MMR is broken (which is easy enough to believe).

True.
I personally believe that, yes, the MMR system is broken (or perhaps not even their) or simply unable to operate because of a lack of players.
As the phrase goes "beggars can't be choosers" and if there's only a handful of players waiting in queue at any given time, then the system can't "choose" who to put where, it has to just make a lobby out of what it has available. The only alternative there would be astronomical queue times that no one would stand for.
Most MMR-based Matchmaker systems have "releases" built into them, where they go for an optimal match for x amount of time, then if none can be made/found, they "release" those limiters and just make do with what they've got.

I simply cannot believe that, under the effects of a properly functioning MMR system, a player like me (capable of 1mill damage, 20+ kill games, etc. across both mag and stam versions of multiple classes) would be matched with someone that goes 0/14 with less than 50K damage done by the end of a game.
And before anyone thinks I'm just being a jerk, if I was that player, I'd be pissed at being thrown into the shark tank!

The way I understand it your MMR rating can only ever go up buy never down? Correct? In which case sooner or later someone who is bad or just mediocre will end up punching way above their weight class, which alone is terrible design.

If the MMR was indeed designed this way, I'd love to hear the reasoning behind it, because it sounds completely pointless to just always push players forward.

redspecter23 wrote: »

LinearParadox wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

LinearParadox wrote: »

The XP reward needs to be removed.
Sadly it entices the wrong types of people (lowbies, newbies and PvE carebears) looking for a leveling boost.

Lowbies and newbies can learn elsewhere, in a less competitive scenario. 1 newbie in a zerg of 20 is 5% of your team. 1 newbie in a team of 4 in an objective gamemode is 25% of your team. It's far more crippling.
And PvE carebears? You think I'm being mean? Lets see you bring a CP200 newbie with questing gear to your Vet Sunspire Trial. Yeah, don't think so.
"Oh, PvPers are so exclusionary!" Yeah? Go try out for Hodor and get back to me.
No one likes having their hard work wasted, whether it's a contribution to an endgame raid, or a PvP match, or anything else.

Everyone is new, everyone needs to learn somewhere, but not where a single weak link can mean a pointless struggle for three other people.

In an ideal situation, the MMR system should cover most of those concerns. An MMR that works combined with a healthy large community should see none of these issues. If extremely weak players are being put into BG's with extremely good, experienced players, the core issue is a failing of the MMR system.

The concerns you list are valid, but basically shouldn't occur to begin with on a large enough scale to notice over and over unless the MMR is broken (which is easy enough to believe).

True.
I personally believe that, yes, the MMR system is broken (or perhaps not even their) or simply unable to operate because of a lack of players.
As the phrase goes "beggars can't be choosers" and if there's only a handful of players waiting in queue at any given time, then the system can't "choose" who to put where, it has to just make a lobby out of what it has available. The only alternative there would be astronomical queue times that no one would stand for.
Most MMR-based Matchmaker systems have "releases" built into them, where they go for an optimal match for x amount of time, then if none can be made/found, they "release" those limiters and just make do with what they've got.

I simply cannot believe that, under the effects of a properly functioning MMR system, a player like me (capable of 1mill damage, 20+ kill games, etc. across both mag and stam versions of multiple classes) would be matched with someone that goes 0/14 with less than 50K damage done by the end of a game.
And before anyone thinks I'm just being a jerk, if I was that player, I'd be pissed at being thrown into the shark tank!

I agree, but from the other side. I'm not great at PVP, but I'd love to learn in an environment that is balanced against my skill level. Getting tossed into a BG and getting rolled repeatedly by someone that ends up 20-0 isn't something I want to do regularly. If I knew the MMR would work and place me with players of my own skill level, I'd be far more likely to hit that queue button.

Yeah that's exactly what I was talking about; it's not fair to either player in that case.
I mean, imagine a Martial Arts school like that: "Welcome to your first lesson, today we're going to have this Black Belt beat the ever-loving [snip] out of you for 15 minutes. Come back next week for your next lesson!" ... yeah, I'm sure they'd have tons of students. -_-
And I can honestly say that, when I attack someone and they don't heal, don't CC break, and go down in barely a few hits... there's no "victory" in that, I can't feel pride in that. I don't enjoy it anymore than they probably did, or more accurately, probably didn't. So yeah, there REALLY needs to be a fairness in fights.

redgreensunset wrote: »

LinearParadox wrote: »

The XP reward needs to be removed.
Sadly it entices the wrong types of people (lowbies, newbies and PvE carebears) looking for a leveling boost.

Lowbies and newbies can learn elsewhere, in a less competitive scenario. 1 newbie in a zerg of 20 is 5% of your team. 1 newbie in a team of 4 in an objective gamemode is 25% of your team. It's far more crippling.
And PvE carebears? You think I'm being mean? Lets see you bring a CP200 newbie with questing gear to your Vet Sunspire Trial. Yeah, don't think so.
"Oh, PvPers are so exclusionary!" Yeah? Go try out for Hodor and get back to me.
No one likes having their hard work wasted, whether it's a contribution to an endgame raid, or a PvP match, or anything else.

Everyone is new, everyone needs to learn somewhere, but not where a single weak link can mean a pointless struggle for three other people.

So where do you suggest they learn? In Cyrodiil new comers aren't welclome, eill be trolled and attacked. IC, yeah lol, right. So where is left but BGs. This is the classic NIMBYism that pvpers are really famous for.

Cyrodiil is fine. People zerg surf all the time. No one asks questions, no one interviews for group or asks about gear score or whatever. Hell, plenty of people do it just to get Vigor alone, and people know that. Many zerglings don't know how to do anything other than hold W and press a skill key over and over, but over time they'll have little tastes of combat when things are more spread out, or they get caught out alone, etc.
I'm not sure what you're talking about with Cyro being exclusionary. Toxic, yes, but exclusionary? Nah.

redspecter23 wrote: »

redgreensunset wrote: »

LinearParadox wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

LinearParadox wrote: »

The XP reward needs to be removed.
Sadly it entices the wrong types of people (lowbies, newbies and PvE carebears) looking for a leveling boost.

Lowbies and newbies can learn elsewhere, in a less competitive scenario. 1 newbie in a zerg of 20 is 5% of your team. 1 newbie in a team of 4 in an objective gamemode is 25% of your team. It's far more crippling.
And PvE carebears? You think I'm being mean? Lets see you bring a CP200 newbie with questing gear to your Vet Sunspire Trial. Yeah, don't think so.
"Oh, PvPers are so exclusionary!" Yeah? Go try out for Hodor and get back to me.
No one likes having their hard work wasted, whether it's a contribution to an endgame raid, or a PvP match, or anything else.

Everyone is new, everyone needs to learn somewhere, but not where a single weak link can mean a pointless struggle for three other people.

In an ideal situation, the MMR system should cover most of those concerns. An MMR that works combined with a healthy large community should see none of these issues. If extremely weak players are being put into BG's with extremely good, experienced players, the core issue is a failing of the MMR system.

The concerns you list are valid, but basically shouldn't occur to begin with on a large enough scale to notice over and over unless the MMR is broken (which is easy enough to believe).

True.
I personally believe that, yes, the MMR system is broken (or perhaps not even their) or simply unable to operate because of a lack of players.
As the phrase goes "beggars can't be choosers" and if there's only a handful of players waiting in queue at any given time, then the system can't "choose" who to put where, it has to just make a lobby out of what it has available. The only alternative there would be astronomical queue times that no one would stand for.
Most MMR-based Matchmaker systems have "releases" built into them, where they go for an optimal match for x amount of time, then if none can be made/found, they "release" those limiters and just make do with what they've got.

I simply cannot believe that, under the effects of a properly functioning MMR system, a player like me (capable of 1mill damage, 20+ kill games, etc. across both mag and stam versions of multiple classes) would be matched with someone that goes 0/14 with less than 50K damage done by the end of a game.
And before anyone thinks I'm just being a jerk, if I was that player, I'd be pissed at being thrown into the shark tank!

The way I understand it your MMR rating can only ever go up buy never down? Correct? In which case sooner or later someone who is bad or just mediocre will end up punching way above their weight class, which alone is terrible design.

If the MMR was indeed designed this way, I'd love to hear the reasoning behind it, because it sounds completely pointless to just always push players forward.

Yes, I remember hearing that as well, and it sounded just as ludicrous then as it does now. Because it is.
It assumes that a player is playing and attempting to improve, and thus they only need "time" to improve until they're put up against stronger/better/more experienced players.
It does absolutely nothing for the types that don't care and just lazy their way through BGs looking for carries, not giving a [snip] who's games they throw/ruin along the way.
Again, try that with a trials or progression group. Good luck. "Oh I don't take trials seriously, they don't matter to me. Now carry me through. Don't yell at me to do the mechanics, I play this game casually and that's fine."
Yeah right, but plenty think that's acceptable in BGs. And with that system, eventually they'll reach the top-tiers, because eventually they'll get enough carries to do so.
It's patently absurd.

[edited for filter bypass]

The same could be applied to Random Dungeons....

I run about 10 per day... and so many PVPers trying to get CP that are simply AWFUL in there. But I don't complain, because I queued for a random - so I get what I get.

I'd be happy if the daily random for BGs gave a boost for AP instead. I'd still want to do it. I level my toons in PVP gear (even doing the daily dungeons) but I switch my skills out accordingly for both. My CP is setup for PVE since BGs don't have CP in them. It's easy enough. I teach my guildies to do the same... but many have stopped doing random BGs because queues take ages, and when they do pop, they end up in a team that doesn't seem capable of getting in 1st or 2nd... deathmatch you have some control over, since you can usually rack up enough kills to push your team into 1st or 2nd if you're good enough... but... capture the relic, chaosball, crazy king etc... much harder to do if your group is just squishy running around clueless.. lol.

I never PVP'd much before BGs... I was awful at PVP. But I started to learn in that environment VERY quickly. It's more controlled than being zerg'd down in Cyrodiil or hit by 10 members of the opposite faction in IC. It's also better than dueling because you're facing 8 different types of enemies with strategies that allow you to learn quickly how effective your build is against different play styles and classes.

Now I really enjoy BGs and enjoy PVP so much that my guild runs PVP 2 or 3 times per week... and that's thanks to random BGs and a squishy PVE-er being in there for a few weeks. Think about that for a second...