* In pvp areas.

Make it a single target skill with a low enough cost that it can be spammed by people sieging down the inner door of a keep under heavy siege fire, and then we'll talk.

Cyrodiil is designed for large fights with increasingly buffed siege weapons, not just solo and small scale squabbles in the field, guys.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Make it a single target skill with a low enough cost that it can be spammed by people sieging down the inner door of a keep under heavy siege fire, and then we'll talk.

Cyrodiil is designed for large fights with increasingly buffed siege weapons, not just solo and small scale squabbles in the field, guys.

If you are standing on a ram under 6 oils pouring, you might wish to reevaluate your choice of positioning. Hint: it might be unwise, and hazardous to your health.

But you know what? Sure. I would be totally on board if Purge removed only debuffs inflicted by siege weapon, even for multiple targets as it does now. With any additional (non-siege) debuffs removed only from the caster.

Ally purge is important for several PVE mechanics.

Kadoin wrote: »

LoreToo wrote: »

First you need to remove 80% debuffs from cyro then yes, nerf it. The ammount of debuffs don't allow YOU even cleanse yourself in combat

Completely false statement. This is only true if you are fighting more than one person

If you want to only fight one person, then go enter a dueling tournament. Big kid battles like what we get in Cyrodiil need big kid skills to help respond to the unique challenges of large battles. That means there's always going to be skills built with a group vs. group fight in mind, and by extension skills like this which require specialized builds to get the full effect out of. Like the whole premise of this conversation is about fights in Cyrodiil, where do you get the idea that people are going to be duking it out 1v1 exclusively?

Wing wrote: »

seige does not stop the problem groups.

It doesn't, and purge spam is a large part of the reason why.

With enough purging, you don't even need siege shield. I know that, because I made it happen myself when I was in one such group. We were routinely standing under 6 oils pouring as if it were a shower of midsummer rain.

Wing wrote: »

and if you want to see just how bad these groups spam purge, cast inevitable det into them, it goes off instantly and constantly due to purge spam, it just does no damage.

That's assuming you can even get the cast to go off - due to both the lag the ballgroups cause, and it being a cast time ability, as those don't even work at all in heavy lag.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Make it a single target skill with a low enough cost that it can be spammed by people sieging down the inner door of a keep under heavy siege fire, and then we'll talk.

Cyrodiil is designed for large fights with increasingly buffed siege weapons, not just solo and small scale squabbles in the field, guys.

If you are standing on a ram under 6 oils pouring, you might wish to reevaluate your choice of positioning. Hint: it might be unwise, and hazardous to your health.

But you know what? Sure. I would be totally on board if Purge removed only debuffs inflicted by siege weapon, even for multiple targets as it does now. With any additional (non-siege) debuffs removed only from the caster.

Making a mass purge for siege debuffs and effects would be appropriate for the Support alliance line, given that standing on a ram under oils is far from the only reason why you might be taking heavy siege fire in ways that "just watch your positioning, bruh" doesn't help. But I think you knew that's insufficient, and perhaps your sarcasm simply didn't translate well over the internet.

It would certainly benefit the players who actually care about playing for the objective instead of merely scrapping in the open field or running around farming zergs in a keep.

And here we reach the root of the problem: although in its current form, Purge is certainly a "tool which helps players survive" in tough battlefield situations, ballgroups are getting far more mileage out of it beyond helping extinguish an ally who happens to be on fire.

You know there is a problem with the game, when one single ability is an absolute requirement to use in every single group playing at the highest level - and said ability allows such groups to be virtually unstoppable, both literally as well as figuratively.

Kadoin wrote: »

LoreToo wrote: »

First you need to remove 80% debuffs from cyro then yes, nerf it. The ammount of debuffs don't allow YOU even cleanse yourself in combat

[snip] This is only true if you are fighting more than one person, and at that point, why exactly should a single skill give such a monumental advantage? Doesn't purge on live also heal by hp%? Another point of contention with the skill, esp. since all other healing that isn't hp%-based got gutted, and it's yet another skill you don't have to invest stats in to make effective. It's yet another item you don't have to give up sustain to gain the maximum effects of, and somehow ZOS is surprised its an unbalanced addition to the game.

So you have a skill that can take off any negative debuff (it should also cleanse stuns, unless they changed that but I have never noticed it myself) that also heals hp% for more than one person, and someone can seriously call that balanced? I think when they changed it I even said it was a terrible idea, and it was proven that it was a bad idea when ballgroups became invincible because the hp% per effect wasn't capped like it is on live.

[snip] Debuffs exist to be on players, not constantly cleansed. To add to that, without debuffs, you won't be killing anyone [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Cleanse heals. Efficient purge doesnt. Maybe people should learn what skills do before calling for nerfs.

Cleanse also costs over 7k mag per cast. To think anyone could use it more than once or twice without a build investment into regen is silly. It's also been nerfed. It used to heal for twice what it does now. Even ballgroups with dedicated purge spammers eventually run out of resources if you can keep pressure on them.

There wouldn't be so much purging going on if there weren't so many things that need to be purged.

The big thing that need to be purged is crowd control, and there is so much of it around.

Rapids had its CC immunity removed, the CC immunity we are supposed to get after being hit by CC is either not applying or too short to be noticeable, some CCs stack requiring multiple break frees or purges (from somebody else) to remove, and the sheer abundance of CC abilities out there means that everybody has at least one slotted.

If they somehow reduced the amount of crowd control abilities going out, I think it would greatly improve everyone's experience and drastically reduce the amount of purges being cast. Even if we are all wrong and purge is not actually causing lag, then at least you wont have to spend as much time futilely trying to break free or mashing purge 6 times so it goes off once during periods of heavy lag.

Many ballgroup players have already switched over to Snow Treaders, so cleansing/purging immobilizes is irrelevant in those cases. I agree it's annoying when ballgroups just cleanse everything you throw at them, but really Snow Treaders has made that ten times worse inside keeps. Outside of a keep they are a liability. An interesting trade off for ballgroups to have to decide on. The main problem with killing ballgroups is when they're able to keep moving and those mythic boots are as much a part of that as Cleanse.

Consider the alternative though. I've been in fights with our 14 person group against the usual faction stacking groups where nearly every single one of our people has 6+ debuffs on them. We're not cleanse spamming our way out of that. We don't have near infinite sustain, no matter what people try to say. It's far more effective for us to try and kill as many players as possible before it gets to that point. If Cleanse is gone what will be left? 40 person stacks spamming weak DOTs as they run by and anyone who tries to fight them just melting. The game will continue towards being a simple matter of who can stack the most.

Cleanse was broken at one time. It was 10% healing in the description but there was something funky going on with the way it calculated. Something along the lines of multiplying by the number of debuffs then the number of players cleansed. It was giving insane healing numbers. A former guildmate once posted a screenshot where it was healing for 6 figures on people per cast. Those days are long gone. Typically if i hit cleanse and it clears 3 debuffs i'll see a heal somewhere in the neighborhood of 2-3k. Big whoop. I've gotten 9k healing ticks from Sap Essence if I can find a big enough crowd to jump into.

TL;DR: People will complain. Skills/sets will change. Ballgroups will adapt. The cycle will continue until the pop cap is 12 per faction.

Kadoin wrote: »

You know, eventually you have to die in the game and CC is a big part of it. The argument that purge is needed because of CC spam becomes completely invalidated when only organized groups can afford to spam it and gain all the advantages that come with it, while everyone else is subjected to the same CC the people supporting the OP purge mechanics claim is a problem. That only proves that the skill and mechanic itself is actually unbalanced, because it ultimately isn't available to everyone on an equal scale.

Literally anyone who has unlocked purge can slot and use it. You don't need to be in an organized group, any person in any sort of group whether it be small man, large man, zerg, ball group, and pug, can slot and use this ability. If people are refusing to group up then that is on them. Cyrodiil is not aimed at solo play and will likely never be balanced towards it.

Kadoin wrote: »

Also, there is no CC or debuff in the game that is "free" enough to compare to the ability to purge it. The cost of running debuffs across the board cost more than the ability to purge them, esp. when you take into account sets like curse eater, wyrd, stendarr, and earthgore. That's part of why purge and the other items with its mechanics is OP and why it definitely needs to be looked at.

Purge costs 7830 or 5400 Magicka to remove 3 debuffs. Its so costly that in "organized groups" they often have multiple people with it slotted just to spread out the cost of just reducing the amount of debuffs applied during a fight. I think you underestimate the sheer amount of debuffs applied during a large fight. Trust me, ive had to play purge-monkey and it just feels like trying to empty an ocean with a bucket.

You are right that it needs to be looked at though, the cost of it is so prohibitive that people think its an ability you have to be specifically built around its use.

Kadoin wrote: »

Purge mechanics have no counter, and they don't have a stacking cost and/or appropriate CD, so they have no downside. If we want to really describe purge as a mechanic, it's ultimately damage reduction with absolutely no counter. That's essentially what it is, always has been, and apparently will be in the future if ZOS doesn't take any action.

The counter is reapplying your debuffs until they run out of resources, or alternatively, figure out who is purging and separate them from their group via unpurgeable CCs like pulls and knockdowns. The latter is harder to do, but very cost effective.

Kadoin wrote: »

And since defile and DoTs are the only counter to some builds (actually all good builds this patch only have this counter), then right now purge mechanics offer the most damage reduction out of any other mechanic in the game. I'm not going to even lie about it, but it's not like it matters anyway to ZOS since they don't care about balance. Guess it will have to be proven during that double AP test coming up soon...Look forward to it.

Most of the unkillible ball groups have been running Bastion of the Heartland + Thrassian Stranglers, that might be the builds you are thinking of? If so, then that combo is getting nerfed next patch.

I have never actually seen a build that is countered by DoTs, as DoTs are easily mitigated by healing. There is a reason why big bursts of concentrated damage delivered too quick to heal have been a staple stagey of bombers and ball groups. Defiles on the other hand are just absurdly good against any build.


I am looking forward to the tests coming up. While my preferred build will be hit hard by the changes, I hope that some usefull data is generated, though sadly I beleive the lag is more hardware issue than anything. At the very least that cooldown on AOE abilities will likely reduce the amount of CCs going out, thus reducing the need for purging.

Kadoin wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

The counter is reapplying your debuffs until they run out of resources, or alternatively, figure out who is purging and separate them from their group via unpurgeable CCs like pulls and knockdowns. The latter is harder to do, but very cost effective.

There is no debuff a player can put on you in PvP that doesn't get removed by purge mechanics. But you're free to believe otherwise.

You literally cannot purge a pull or knock down.