The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
I am sick and tired of people saying "buy better servers"
-
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
The space, personnel, and infrastructure... you need a constantly cooled environment, in which the servers fit. You can't just throw a server into any room, it will overheat quite quickly. And someone to maintain the servers. If you outsource maintenance, you give that responsibility to another company who specializes in it. If ZOS would run their own servers, they would have to get specialized space. Get an infrastructure to/from the servers running(expensive cables/connections), and they would have to maintain their own servers(specialized personnel). Not to mention if something breaks, ZOS would get the bill, instead of the company they outsourced it to. Since any smart company has hardware defect costs as part of their rentprice, which spread out over multiple companies is cheaper.anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »Again can't speak to ZOS but this ability to scale up and down when required literally saves us a few million per year in costs with the cloud company. Still much cheaper though than owning your own hardware and running/staffing your own data center.
Asking out of curiosity, since you seem to know a bit on the topic : what's so expensive in a data center, and what's more expensive in running your own rather than renting it ?
Off the top of my head, I can think of hardware, electricity and cooling costs, which I believe would be equivalent in both cases, and staff (which can be mutualized, but it's not the main cost factor here). Just asking.
And as you mentioned, other ongoing monthly costs like electricity for example.
Exactly this, it's outsourcing which will always be cheaper and allows for dedicated concerns to be shouldered by someone else.
0 -
daemonios✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Who cares what the root of the problem is? I don't give a whoop whether it's server hardware, game engine, or client/server architecture. I'm tired of longstanding issues and responses that just don't cut it. At it is, I'm no longer even playing. It will probably remain the case unless something drastically changes.3 -
ihazzit✭✭✭You also need to factor in the transportation time to and from the facility as if it's all controlled by the local metro system with random routes to the facility with differing speeds along the routes but yet have to make it appear as though everyone arrived at the same time although they are there for differing outcomes that take differing amounts of time.If you are angry about anything in this game you are only punishing yourself.0 -
vamp_emily✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I am sick and tired of people saying "buy better servers"
Become a Monk, it teaches you how to control your emotions. You will never be sick of people again.
If you want a friend, get a dog.
AW Rank: Grand Warlord 1 ( level 49)1 -
HybrisCross✭✭✭buy better servers
or you prefer that now , us , gamers, customers, ask about a decent aftersale,better technical maintenance from a worldly game pretending to be be the best MMO atm with the best community ?
or you wants us to eat some grass , smile at what happen and just spent our money in eso+ /crown store ?
WE are in 2020 as you said that kind of problem should not even happen ! we are not in late 1980 coding oursleves thousand of pages of the game we bought on our atari before playing a pixeled game.
We are not in 1995 where one internet page would take 1 hour to be totally upload.
1 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Now TBH I tell my bro this "The U.S servers expect the people to write bad code, the German servers probably expect the people to write efficient code. That's why the U.S servers stay up they handle the errors. " Now if they are the same type of servers from the same company that statement can be thrown out the window.
Yes, it can be thrown out, but don't throw it out.
Ectheliontnacil wrote: »Why is performance in pvp greatly improved during midyear mayhem then?
We don't know. All the forum can do is guess. I doubt that ZOS will tell us, and even if they did, I question how many would simply not get it.
I am certain that they added or repurposed hardware during MYM, and probably did the opposite after MYM. They added Cyrodiil Campaigns, and the compute resources to do that do not just appear out of nowhere. Obviously, when those extra campaigns are no longer needed, the hardware can be used for other things, or removed.
I think that applies only to the new campaigns. I question the idea that they upgraded the hardware running the existing campaigns and then downgraded afterwards. I don't think that this makes financial sense, but would be fine if ZOS stopped by to prove me wrong on the matter.
It all really depends on what a Cyrodiil campaign looks like when you are looking at the megaserver.
Also... in the datacenter vs cloud debate, I have no idea what they are doing today, but my assumption is it is not much different than what they did with PC EU circa 2014:
Edited by Elsonso on July 31, 2020 1:36PM0 -
Four_Fingers✭✭✭✭✭
✭As to the DMV.
My Maserati does one-eighty-five
I lost my license, now I don't drive
I have a limo, ride in the back
I lock the doors in case I'm attacked2 -
ZOS . . . Buy better players. Some are sick and tired and need to be replaced.1 -
Dusk_Coven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ectheliontnacil wrote: »Why is performance in pvp greatly improved during midyear mayhem then?
Sure they increased player capacity,
but maybe a big amount of that player capacity was used up by players who didn't play in a problematic way.
They just came into Cyrodiil to get their quests done and get their tickets, or just casually ride around with their guild to try Cyrodiil while it's double AP.
Not all of them were these supposedly problematic ball groups endlessly spamming aoes. And those groups may have split up to go into different campaigns instead of engaging each other which, according to what ZOS wants to test, would have intensified the problem.
Then when it's all over they leave because they weren't interested in PvP.
Leaving the people who play in a problematic way, in fewer campaigns because there's no need anymore for so much player capacity
because all those temporary people left.
So when people "had no problems" maybe they happened to be in a campaign at a time when there were no intense fights?
First few days the campaigns were crowded but you could see them start to thin out rapidly over time so that only the locked campaign was really the only one that kept busy.
*
I'm still curious why in our same group,
in the same keep with probably a few dozen people,
only SOME experienced lag or skills not firing (or long load screens just getting to the location)
but the rest were fine.Edited by Dusk_Coven on July 31, 2020 2:09PM0 -
scorpius2k1✭✭✭✭✭
✭I am sick and tired of people defending bad company behaviour.
Sidenote: ZOS doesn't buy or build its own servers.. they rent them from dedicated companies.
...and then they install their unoptimized and poorly performing software onto the server, which is the actual problem. You can't install a Peel P50 engine (their software) in a Bugatti Chiron (the server hardware) and expect things to perform well.
That is just the server end of things. Then add all the client side problems and welcome to the full ESO experience! I'm reminded of a Forrest Gump quote here...you never know what you're gonna get
🌎 PC/NA
🐧 Linux (Arch)
🧑💻 ESO Addon Dev
⚔️ Stamplar | Magplar | Stamcro | Magsorc | Magcro Healer0 -
caperb✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Ah thank you. Google search only gave some companies and strange websites over here, and since it's has been a long day for me the rest was just a wall of text. Understand it better now 2 -
virtus753✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Ah thank you. Google search only gave some companies and strange websites over here, and since it's has been a long day for me the rest was just a wall of text. Understand it better now
It may also help to know they have a long-standing reputation for long lines and slow service. So much so that, well, I’ll let Zootopia speak for itself:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HHKwnUa3txo 1 -
KitraniSoul ShrivenNo.
Just buy better servers or optimize network code.
I don't know another MMO-game where developers break down game mechanics because "our servers too overloaded".1 -
HankTwo✭✭✭✭✭And I am sick and tired of ZOS apologists.PC EU
Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK4 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Everyone keeps saying how well PvP worked during mym... It didn't on pc EU, actually worse than it does now. I heard it was good on the NA servers though👍
Here is a thread I created during mym and all of my clips were captured during mym. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/535282/performance-issues-submit-your-clips-here#latest
I would like to say that the game ran beautifully during the previous mym(before harrowstorm). It was the release of harrowstorm where they did something that truly ruined performance. I am certain they moved more calculations server side than just block and have never admitted to it. I think they did something to make stadia work better or moved the game onto different servers.
They definetly did something they know they can't/won't undo.0 -
furiouslog✭✭✭✭✭
✭Now I am going to sit here for about 15 mins thinking of a good analogy.
Ok, how about this one, I went to go renew my license at the DMV after like 12 years.
Back in the day, they would
1. give us a number and have us sit
2. call us up one by one no matter what the reason of the visit was.
3. We would go to whoever was available to take us at the counter.
This obviously led to unpredicatble and mostly long times at the dmv.
Fast forward to 2020.
Before we walk in we need to
1. register to a computer that is not controlled by a human.
2. it asks us what is the nature of the visit.
3. They assign us to sit at a certain part of the building. This is because they are splitting us up into groups of who need to have the similar things done.
4. Instead of calling us up one by one, they call a portion of the group up in 20s to go to the counter.
5. Then they split the 20 by 5 and have the smaller group stand at one of the 5 counters that were previously empty. These counters specialize in what our group needs to have done.
So once we are standing there it's about 5 minutes per person. Obviously, this data was taken over the years and created this system to make the DMV more efficient. No matter how much people flood in the wait times should be about the same for that specific group. It allows people to plan their time when they go to the dmv.
Note that this was the same DMV in the 12 yrs, they had the same amount of counters, the same amount of people at those counters, similar hardware, the building was the same size. The only thing that changed to make the dmv more efficient was the logic behind how to take in the people and process them.
So what does this mean? buying better servers won't solve the overall problem.
Yes, the DMV of 12 years ago could have invest in a bigger DMV, but then they will have to take more space, hire more people to fill in those new counters, buy more hardware to take pictures and signatures, oh yeah rebuild the whole DMV and have it close down for a while, buy more seats, more restrooms, etc. However realize, the problem was not fixed. The times are still wildly different. When the more people start coming in, it will still get jammed even though they expanded the size. You'll have people who could have been processed fast and easily out the door being behind people who need time to be processed. Just because they still wanted to keep the first come first serve motto for all processes instead of splitting the process into different types like the 2020 version.
This analogy is flawed, but honestly it is not possible for the community to come up with a decent analogy because the community is not aware of the actual problems with ZOS's software and hardware designs. We infer problems and bottlenecks from public statements made, but we don't actually know what is going on. But let's parse this out anyway.
The current revamp of sets and the proposed PVP tests offer a clue into one kind of bottleneck, which is the number of calculations on the server. Your DMV analogy suggests that by optimizing the processing of these calculations, that the efficiency of the service improves (which is what your DMV did). However, increasing the ability to do calculations quicker is also a solution (which would be hiring more people). Here's where the flaws are:
1. You assume that the same number of people are going to the DMV. ESO is an on demand service, so limiting people's ability to play when they want is not a feasible solution.
2. The perceived cost and effort of rebuilding the DMV is not analogous to renting/purchasing servers that have improved calculation capacity and efficiency. Yes, better servers would cost more, and there would be migration costs, but the incremental operating costs would be worth it if they have a sustainable player base.
3. The DMV must continue to function because it is a regulatory requirement. I can't choose to do something other than go to the DMV if I want to register my car. I can, however, stop paying for crowns and ESO+, and go elsewhere to play some other game if I no longer find ESO to be enjoyable. The economics behind both services have different constraints that guide the approach to optimization.
To strain the analogy: people are complaining about servers because many in the community find the solutions in the currently proposed tests to be unacceptable if they went live. So imagine that the DMV splits people into groups as you've indicated, but every 5th group needs to sit all packed together in the bathroom. Yes, it solves the problem, but it makes a subset of customers unhappy. People would stop going to the DMV if they were upset at the possibility of having to sit in the bathroom. Of course, they still have to go, so they would complain to the government and get the issues changed in a way that did not force them to sit in the bathroom.
And that's what people who complain about the servers are doing: they want to play ESO, they just don't want to be forced to sit in a stinky bathroom to do it when ZOS could just "hire" more "people".
0 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭furiouslog wrote: »1. You assume that the same number of people are going to the DMV. ESO is an on demand service, so limiting people's ability to play when they want is not a feasible solution.
That is what the Login Queues are for, and those ain't going away. It will always be a possibility that a high concurrent demand spike will exceed planned server capacity.furiouslog wrote: »And that's what people who complain about the servers are doing: they want to play ESO, they just don't want to be forced to sit in a stinky bathroom to do it.
0 -
LuxLunae✭✭✭✭✭I was sitting around an thinking... why doesn't zos let us cdhange our skills in battle?
Ok so what if they do this...They use some sort a map, queue whatever or something.
Now once we put our skills on the bar, they already load up the amount of space needed for that queue, or map or whatever.
Putting a hard limit on the list instead of letting it shrink or grown. Like up to 4 players are affected by such aoe or something.
This way zos is only adding and removing from an already existing memory associated with the player.
Now I also assume the skills work this way in cyro.
1. The keep is the main hub and there is some sort of list somewhere that ranks people who are closer or farther from that zero point.
2. When somebody puts down an AoE it uses an if (players are in circle range) so it goes to the list and chooses the players who are close to where the AOE was set. (wait if they do that they would just have to reference instead of making individual list for each skill.)
So wait, hold on.. i am still trying to guess this system...
ok we have a list that has all the players locations on it who is in the local keep space. (not the whole of cyro lol)
There are probably two or more lists.
1. Cyro friendly list
2. Cyro foe list
3. group list
when we put a AOE, it goes to the LIST LOCATION and applies it to those at that location.
so we have something like this uhhh (for simplicity i am using only 2d)
[0,0| Bob ] , [ 0,1| Ed ] , [ 0,1| carl ]
We don't care who bob, carl or ed is... we only care about those coordinates. and then apply whoever is in the coordinates the
AOE
The AOE says, if player is in -1,-1 to 1,1 apply it to them. (in this case Location x , location y + AOE size. I am using psudo math here not the real equation but just the idea we reference x and y as our center and apply the AOE around it to find its boundary at that location)
So now we have a location list and we just move players in the list corresponding to their actual location. TBH that moving seems like it would be very costly lol. Not only that, the list grid would have to split the keep location into the player size. That might make this list super large in data. However the location list would stay there for the entire time cyro is up so...
Would it be it be more costly to have a changing list of players who walk into the keep location? keep updating the position on a list of players and then asking the location to decide whether to apply the AOE?
Let me go back to thinking about this...clean it up a bit.
I know it might be a bad idea, but i like the idea of the location grid list and putting the players into that list based on their location.
Then having AoE apply their Heals or Damage on a subset of that list. A problem with this that no two players should be at the same location, but what if they are lol? I'd probably have to say, "don't swap when two players are at same location, keep at previous location or update once at next location"
what if 100 people sit on the same location? The grid can't be used. I just remembered we have no field and can meld into each other. So i'd be forced to make a list anyways for the location area to put multiple people on a same location. That just defeats the purpose lol.
Let me go think about htis more lol.0 -
TineaCruris✭✭✭✭✭ZOS needs to lease better servers, not dumb down their combat system so the game can run on 12 year old servers.0
-
volkeswagon✭✭✭✭✭
✭I just wish the EU server had its capacity increased. May be naive of me, but the NA one is less populated and has less issues (everything else being equal?), so rather than wish my fellow Europeans go and find another game, I would rather have a server with enough space for all of us.
They are increasing capacity as they mentioned a few weeks ago0
