RIP THRASSIANS :(
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Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭lol
if you move points from main stat to health and then use this its by far the strongest and most efficient raw damage item in the game.
lot of people really dont know what they are talking about, this went from niche use to possibly required best in slot.
but math is hard i guess.
for those who find numbers tricky.
6000 health is about 5500 raw stat assuming you move attribute points from main stat to health.
5500 raw stat is roughly 550 spell / weapon damage.
OF NOTE raw stats are applied to skills like weapon and spell damage but are not effected by % increases like brutality
stranglers provide 850 of both weapons AND spell damage, so an increase of 300 main stat, 850 off stat.
OF note, it IS effected by brutality, so its at least over 1020 with just a major buff, and can scale higher
bringing the increase up to well over 500 main stat damage, and over 1000 off stat damage.
math is tricky i guess.
That also assumes max stacks, which I guess is now at 50? Going to be much harder to build stacks. Which means when not at max stacks (most people for most of trial content), the benefit is going to be way less and you will have less DPS than you would without the gloves based on the gear sacrifices you likely had to make. Sure you could in theory swap gear as you build stacks, but most people wont.
Another thing this analysis misses is sustain. It is an indirect issue, but lowering your max magic, does reduce your sustain potential, even more so in places like VMA.6 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Does the set take from base health and not scaled health? If it takes from your base health, before modifiers, you are losing far more than 6K health.
scaled not base, 6k after calcs.WrathOfInnos wrote: »daemondamian wrote: »Hapexamendios wrote: »Not worth using on DPS. Health penalty kills it. It's basically for a tank solo questing.
Is that if the tank is still wearing tank gear or has put on some dps sets?
I don't know if their high health pool would mitigate the less resistance from not wearing heavy armor along with the penalties of wearing TS?
Would not be worth doing for 850 damage. 2 5-piece sets add a lot more than that. Even Spell Strategist alone gives 847 Spell Damage, and it’s not the best DPS set just an easy comparison.
spell strategist just got nerf'd on pts. and you can build in different ways other then "giving up a 5 piece" with that being said base line 5th piece damage is 300 damage, obviously stranglers would be better.
That 847 is after the nerf, it is 887 on live.0 -
Wing✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »lol
if you move points from main stat to health and then use this its by far the strongest and most efficient raw damage item in the game.
lot of people really dont know what they are talking about, this went from niche use to possibly required best in slot.
but math is hard i guess.
for those who find numbers tricky.
6000 health is about 5500 raw stat assuming you move attribute points from main stat to health.
5500 raw stat is roughly 550 spell / weapon damage.
OF NOTE raw stats are applied to skills like weapon and spell damage but are not effected by % increases like brutality
stranglers provide 850 of both weapons AND spell damage, so an increase of 300 main stat, 850 off stat.
OF note, it IS effected by brutality, so its at least over 1020 with just a major buff, and can scale higher
bringing the increase up to well over 500 main stat damage, and over 1000 off stat damage.
math is tricky i guess.
That also assumes max stacks, which I guess is now at 50? Going to be much harder to build stacks. Which means when not at max stacks (most people for most of trial content), the benefit is going to be way less and you will have less DPS than you would without the gloves based on the gear sacrifices you likely had to make. Sure you could in theory swap gear as you build stacks, but most people wont.
Another thing this analysis misses is sustain. It is an indirect issue, but lowering your max magic, does reduce your sustain potential, even more so in places like VMA.
stacks last an hour, and do not rest on instance change anymore, build them up when you get in game.WrathOfInnos wrote: »
Does the set take from base health and not scaled health? If it takes from your base health, before modifiers, you are losing far more than 6K health.
scaled not base, 6k after calcs.WrathOfInnos wrote: »daemondamian wrote: »Hapexamendios wrote: »Not worth using on DPS. Health penalty kills it. It's basically for a tank solo questing.
Is that if the tank is still wearing tank gear or has put on some dps sets?
I don't know if their high health pool would mitigate the less resistance from not wearing heavy armor along with the penalties of wearing TS?
Would not be worth doing for 850 damage. 2 5-piece sets add a lot more than that. Even Spell Strategist alone gives 847 Spell Damage, and it’s not the best DPS set just an easy comparison.
spell strategist just got nerf'd on pts. and you can build in different ways other then "giving up a 5 piece" with that being said base line 5th piece damage is 300 damage, obviously stranglers would be better.
That 847 is after the nerf, it is 887 on live.
i actually went and checked cause i thought i miss checked and it didnt get nerf'd.
run them both.ESO player since beta.
previously full time subscriber, beta-2024, game got too disappointing.
PC NA
( ^_^ )
You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods -XenogearsDK one trick0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »lol
if you move points from main stat to health and then use this its by far the strongest and most efficient raw damage item in the game.
lot of people really dont know what they are talking about, this went from niche use to possibly required best in slot.
but math is hard i guess.
for those who find numbers tricky.
6000 health is about 5500 raw stat assuming you move attribute points from main stat to health.
5500 raw stat is roughly 550 spell / weapon damage.
OF NOTE raw stats are applied to skills like weapon and spell damage but are not effected by % increases like brutality
stranglers provide 850 of both weapons AND spell damage, so an increase of 300 main stat, 850 off stat.
OF note, it IS effected by brutality, so its at least over 1020 with just a major buff, and can scale higher
bringing the increase up to well over 500 main stat damage, and over 1000 off stat damage.
math is tricky i guess.
That also assumes max stacks, which I guess is now at 50? Going to be much harder to build stacks. Which means when not at max stacks (most people for most of trial content), the benefit is going to be way less and you will have less DPS than you would without the gloves based on the gear sacrifices you likely had to make. Sure you could in theory swap gear as you build stacks, but most people wont.
Another thing this analysis misses is sustain. It is an indirect issue, but lowering your max magic, does reduce your sustain potential, even more so in places like VMA.
stacks last an hour, and do not rest on instance change anymore, build them up when you get in game.WrathOfInnos wrote: »
Does the set take from base health and not scaled health? If it takes from your base health, before modifiers, you are losing far more than 6K health.
scaled not base, 6k after calcs.WrathOfInnos wrote: »daemondamian wrote: »Hapexamendios wrote: »Not worth using on DPS. Health penalty kills it. It's basically for a tank solo questing.
Is that if the tank is still wearing tank gear or has put on some dps sets?
I don't know if their high health pool would mitigate the less resistance from not wearing heavy armor along with the penalties of wearing TS?
Would not be worth doing for 850 damage. 2 5-piece sets add a lot more than that. Even Spell Strategist alone gives 847 Spell Damage, and it’s not the best DPS set just an easy comparison.
spell strategist just got nerf'd on pts. and you can build in different ways other then "giving up a 5 piece" with that being said base line 5th piece damage is 300 damage, obviously stranglers would be better.
That 847 is after the nerf, it is 887 on live.
i actually went and checked cause i thought i miss checked and it didnt get nerf'd.
run them both.
Oh, did not know that part. Still say they have way too many moving parts to this item. It is now simply starting to sound like a chore. My other concern is that even if it is Meta, it now seems almost forced. My guess is also that an organized raid will never start on time again. haha. Raid leaders will be twiddling their thumbs as their DPS scramble to build stacks right at the start of a raid.1 -
Chufu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I'd say they should never have brought Thrassian to the Live server anyway, because all the Endgame-players are trying to use it in the raids (some are pretty good not to die) and some are just underestimating apparently the amount of damage coming in with some stacks...
Personally it's pretty nice to use in Dungeons or in vDSA for example, especially when doing 3 DD runs with all 3 DD with Thrassian, but for raids...
And of course: As soon as stamina players can use it it get nerfed, so why not deleting it completely?- @OrcTalk on Twitter
- ESO-Skillfactory.com[EN/DE/FR] Skillplanner/Skillplaner/Planificateur de compétences
3 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »lol
if you move points from main stat to health and then use this its by far the strongest and most efficient raw damage item in the game.
lot of people really dont know what they are talking about, this went from niche use to possibly required best in slot.
but math is hard i guess.
for those who find numbers tricky.
6000 health is about 5500 raw stat assuming you move attribute points from main stat to health.
5500 raw stat is roughly 550 spell / weapon damage.
OF NOTE raw stats are applied to skills like weapon and spell damage but are not effected by % increases like brutality
stranglers provide 850 of both weapons AND spell damage, so an increase of 300 main stat, 850 off stat.
OF note, it IS effected by brutality, so its at least over 1020 with just a major buff, and can scale higher
bringing the increase up to well over 500 main stat damage, and over 1000 off stat damage.
math is tricky i guess.
That also assumes max stacks, which I guess is now at 50? Going to be much harder to build stacks. Which means when not at max stacks (most people for most of trial content), the benefit is going to be way less and you will have less DPS than you would without the gloves based on the gear sacrifices you likely had to make. Sure you could in theory swap gear as you build stacks, but most people wont.
Another thing this analysis misses is sustain. It is an indirect issue, but lowering your max magic, does reduce your sustain potential, even more so in places like VMA.
stacks last an hour, and do not rest on instance change anymore, build them up when you get in game.WrathOfInnos wrote: »
Does the set take from base health and not scaled health? If it takes from your base health, before modifiers, you are losing far more than 6K health.
scaled not base, 6k after calcs.WrathOfInnos wrote: »daemondamian wrote: »Hapexamendios wrote: »Not worth using on DPS. Health penalty kills it. It's basically for a tank solo questing.
Is that if the tank is still wearing tank gear or has put on some dps sets?
I don't know if their high health pool would mitigate the less resistance from not wearing heavy armor along with the penalties of wearing TS?
Would not be worth doing for 850 damage. 2 5-piece sets add a lot more than that. Even Spell Strategist alone gives 847 Spell Damage, and it’s not the best DPS set just an easy comparison.
spell strategist just got nerf'd on pts. and you can build in different ways other then "giving up a 5 piece" with that being said base line 5th piece damage is 300 damage, obviously stranglers would be better.
That 847 is after the nerf, it is 887 on live.
i actually went and checked cause i thought i miss checked and it didnt get nerf'd.
run them both.
Oh, did not know that part. Still say they have way too many moving parts to this item. It is now simply starting to sound like a chore. My other concern is that even if it is Meta, it now seems almost forced. My guess is also that an organized raid will never start on time again. haha. Raid leaders will be twiddling their thumbs as their DPS scramble to build stacks right at the start of a raid.
Wait, so you can build 50 stacks overland and then bring them into a trial? That seems like something worth mentioning in patch notes, since it completely trivializes the stack building process. I’ll have to try that tonight. I still think the tiny damage increase is not worth the massive health loss though.0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »lol
if you move points from main stat to health and then use this its by far the strongest and most efficient raw damage item in the game.
lot of people really dont know what they are talking about, this went from niche use to possibly required best in slot.
but math is hard i guess.
for those who find numbers tricky.
6000 health is about 5500 raw stat assuming you move attribute points from main stat to health.
5500 raw stat is roughly 550 spell / weapon damage.
OF NOTE raw stats are applied to skills like weapon and spell damage but are not effected by % increases like brutality
stranglers provide 850 of both weapons AND spell damage, so an increase of 300 main stat, 850 off stat.
OF note, it IS effected by brutality, so its at least over 1020 with just a major buff, and can scale higher
bringing the increase up to well over 500 main stat damage, and over 1000 off stat damage.
math is tricky i guess.
That also assumes max stacks, which I guess is now at 50? Going to be much harder to build stacks. Which means when not at max stacks (most people for most of trial content), the benefit is going to be way less and you will have less DPS than you would without the gloves based on the gear sacrifices you likely had to make. Sure you could in theory swap gear as you build stacks, but most people wont.
Another thing this analysis misses is sustain. It is an indirect issue, but lowering your max magic, does reduce your sustain potential, even more so in places like VMA.
stacks last an hour, and do not rest on instance change anymore, build them up when you get in game.WrathOfInnos wrote: »
Does the set take from base health and not scaled health? If it takes from your base health, before modifiers, you are losing far more than 6K health.
scaled not base, 6k after calcs.WrathOfInnos wrote: »daemondamian wrote: »Hapexamendios wrote: »Not worth using on DPS. Health penalty kills it. It's basically for a tank solo questing.
Is that if the tank is still wearing tank gear or has put on some dps sets?
I don't know if their high health pool would mitigate the less resistance from not wearing heavy armor along with the penalties of wearing TS?
Would not be worth doing for 850 damage. 2 5-piece sets add a lot more than that. Even Spell Strategist alone gives 847 Spell Damage, and it’s not the best DPS set just an easy comparison.
spell strategist just got nerf'd on pts. and you can build in different ways other then "giving up a 5 piece" with that being said base line 5th piece damage is 300 damage, obviously stranglers would be better.
That 847 is after the nerf, it is 887 on live.
i actually went and checked cause i thought i miss checked and it didnt get nerf'd.
run them both.
Oh, did not know that part. Still say they have way too many moving parts to this item. It is now simply starting to sound like a chore. My other concern is that even if it is Meta, it now seems almost forced. My guess is also that an organized raid will never start on time again. haha. Raid leaders will be twiddling their thumbs as their DPS scramble to build stacks right at the start of a raid.
Wait, so you can build 50 stacks overland and then bring them into a trial? That seems like something worth mentioning in patch notes, since it completely trivializes the stack building process. I’ll have to try that tonight. I still think the tiny damage increase is not worth the massive health loss though.
@WrathOfInnos
I double checked quickly and did not see anything about that in Patch Notes. If not mentioned there but the stacks are surviving zoning on the PTS, 50/50 its not working as intended, as it seems totally against the original design of these. I have not been on PTS this cycle, so I am clearly just speculating.
We should take a straw poll of end game raiders and see how many want to grind zombies at the start of every trial from this point forward. Sounds terrible if you ask me, but admittedly, my days of pushing score are behind me. Who knows what the kids are into these days.
If it were up to me, I would reduce the live damage by somewhere between 30-50%, reduce the damage taking by about the same amount (maybe a bit less to keep the pressure on), and let stacks fall after 5 minutes if you dont gain any more. See where it lands, and go from there.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on July 28, 2020 6:17PM0 -
Red_Feather✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭wild_kmacdb16_ESO wrote: »Honestly, mythic equipment should've never left the draft table for exactly these reasons. They aren't allowed to be powerful because everyone will use them, and if they aren't powerful, why are they 'mythic'?
I probably would have made these items work like potions or something; something you can activate for a short term buff that would share the same cooldown as a potion. But unlike a potion, it wouldn't get consumed on use.
Yeah! Using them on quickslot, just as mementos do, would have been so much better.
Edited by Red_Feather on July 28, 2020 6:23PM0 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »lol
if you move points from main stat to health and then use this its by far the strongest and most efficient raw damage item in the game.
lot of people really dont know what they are talking about, this went from niche use to possibly required best in slot.
but math is hard i guess.
for those who find numbers tricky.
6000 health is about 5500 raw stat assuming you move attribute points from main stat to health.
5500 raw stat is roughly 550 spell / weapon damage.
OF NOTE raw stats are applied to skills like weapon and spell damage but are not effected by % increases like brutality
stranglers provide 850 of both weapons AND spell damage, so an increase of 300 main stat, 850 off stat.
OF note, it IS effected by brutality, so its at least over 1020 with just a major buff, and can scale higher
bringing the increase up to well over 500 main stat damage, and over 1000 off stat damage.
math is tricky i guess.
That also assumes max stacks, which I guess is now at 50? Going to be much harder to build stacks. Which means when not at max stacks (most people for most of trial content), the benefit is going to be way less and you will have less DPS than you would without the gloves based on the gear sacrifices you likely had to make. Sure you could in theory swap gear as you build stacks, but most people wont.
Another thing this analysis misses is sustain. It is an indirect issue, but lowering your max magic, does reduce your sustain potential, even more so in places like VMA.
stacks last an hour, and do not rest on instance change anymore, build them up when you get in game.WrathOfInnos wrote: »
Does the set take from base health and not scaled health? If it takes from your base health, before modifiers, you are losing far more than 6K health.
scaled not base, 6k after calcs.WrathOfInnos wrote: »daemondamian wrote: »Hapexamendios wrote: »Not worth using on DPS. Health penalty kills it. It's basically for a tank solo questing.
Is that if the tank is still wearing tank gear or has put on some dps sets?
I don't know if their high health pool would mitigate the less resistance from not wearing heavy armor along with the penalties of wearing TS?
Would not be worth doing for 850 damage. 2 5-piece sets add a lot more than that. Even Spell Strategist alone gives 847 Spell Damage, and it’s not the best DPS set just an easy comparison.
spell strategist just got nerf'd on pts. and you can build in different ways other then "giving up a 5 piece" with that being said base line 5th piece damage is 300 damage, obviously stranglers would be better.
That 847 is after the nerf, it is 887 on live.
i actually went and checked cause i thought i miss checked and it didnt get nerf'd.
run them both.
Oh, did not know that part. Still say they have way too many moving parts to this item. It is now simply starting to sound like a chore. My other concern is that even if it is Meta, it now seems almost forced. My guess is also that an organized raid will never start on time again. haha. Raid leaders will be twiddling their thumbs as their DPS scramble to build stacks right at the start of a raid.
Wait, so you can build 50 stacks overland and then bring them into a trial? That seems like something worth mentioning in patch notes, since it completely trivializes the stack building process. I’ll have to try that tonight. I still think the tiny damage increase is not worth the massive health loss though.
@WrathOfInnos
I double checked quickly and did not see anything about that in Patch Notes. If not mentioned there but the stacks are surviving zoning on the PTS, 50/50 its not working as intended, as it seems totally against the original design of these. I have not been on PTS this cycle, so I am clearly just speculating.
We should take a straw poll of end game raiders and see how many want to grind zombies at the start of every trial from this point forward. Sounds terrible if you ask me, but admittedly, my days of pushing score are behind me. Who knows what the kids are into these days.
If it were up to me, I would reduce the live damage by somewhere between 30-50%, reduce the damage taking by about the same amount (maybe a bit less to keep the pressure on), and let stacks fall after 5 minutes if you dont gain any more. See where it lands, and go from there.
I think a simple solution from live would be to cut it to 10 stacks, keep the damage the same at 150 per stack or 1500 at max stacks, but raise the penalty per stack to1+X%, where it adds an extra % of penalty per stack. So stack 1 is 1%, stack 2 is 2% on top of that, all the way up to the 10% from stack 10. So at 10 stacks you get 55% damage, health, and shields debuff, but having less stacks is less of a penalty. Resets still at death and zoning.1 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »lol
if you move points from main stat to health and then use this its by far the strongest and most efficient raw damage item in the game.
lot of people really dont know what they are talking about, this went from niche use to possibly required best in slot.
but math is hard i guess.
for those who find numbers tricky.
6000 health is about 5500 raw stat assuming you move attribute points from main stat to health.
5500 raw stat is roughly 550 spell / weapon damage.
OF NOTE raw stats are applied to skills like weapon and spell damage but are not effected by % increases like brutality
stranglers provide 850 of both weapons AND spell damage, so an increase of 300 main stat, 850 off stat.
OF note, it IS effected by brutality, so its at least over 1020 with just a major buff, and can scale higher
bringing the increase up to well over 500 main stat damage, and over 1000 off stat damage.
math is tricky i guess.
That also assumes max stacks, which I guess is now at 50? Going to be much harder to build stacks. Which means when not at max stacks (most people for most of trial content), the benefit is going to be way less and you will have less DPS than you would without the gloves based on the gear sacrifices you likely had to make. Sure you could in theory swap gear as you build stacks, but most people wont.
Another thing this analysis misses is sustain. It is an indirect issue, but lowering your max magic, does reduce your sustain potential, even more so in places like VMA.
stacks last an hour, and do not rest on instance change anymore, build them up when you get in game.WrathOfInnos wrote: »
Does the set take from base health and not scaled health? If it takes from your base health, before modifiers, you are losing far more than 6K health.
scaled not base, 6k after calcs.WrathOfInnos wrote: »daemondamian wrote: »Hapexamendios wrote: »Not worth using on DPS. Health penalty kills it. It's basically for a tank solo questing.
Is that if the tank is still wearing tank gear or has put on some dps sets?
I don't know if their high health pool would mitigate the less resistance from not wearing heavy armor along with the penalties of wearing TS?
Would not be worth doing for 850 damage. 2 5-piece sets add a lot more than that. Even Spell Strategist alone gives 847 Spell Damage, and it’s not the best DPS set just an easy comparison.
spell strategist just got nerf'd on pts. and you can build in different ways other then "giving up a 5 piece" with that being said base line 5th piece damage is 300 damage, obviously stranglers would be better.
That 847 is after the nerf, it is 887 on live.
i actually went and checked cause i thought i miss checked and it didnt get nerf'd.
run them both.
Oh, did not know that part. Still say they have way too many moving parts to this item. It is now simply starting to sound like a chore. My other concern is that even if it is Meta, it now seems almost forced. My guess is also that an organized raid will never start on time again. haha. Raid leaders will be twiddling their thumbs as their DPS scramble to build stacks right at the start of a raid.
Wait, so you can build 50 stacks overland and then bring them into a trial? That seems like something worth mentioning in patch notes, since it completely trivializes the stack building process. I’ll have to try that tonight. I still think the tiny damage increase is not worth the massive health loss though.
@WrathOfInnos
I double checked quickly and did not see anything about that in Patch Notes. If not mentioned there but the stacks are surviving zoning on the PTS, 50/50 its not working as intended, as it seems totally against the original design of these. I have not been on PTS this cycle, so I am clearly just speculating.
We should take a straw poll of end game raiders and see how many want to grind zombies at the start of every trial from this point forward. Sounds terrible if you ask me, but admittedly, my days of pushing score are behind me. Who knows what the kids are into these days.
If it were up to me, I would reduce the live damage by somewhere between 30-50%, reduce the damage taking by about the same amount (maybe a bit less to keep the pressure on), and let stacks fall after 5 minutes if you dont gain any more. See where it lands, and go from there.
Agreed that would be a pretty strange change for my understanding of how these are supposed to work. It does sound painful for everyone to have to kill 50 enemies after a trial wipe/reset. It solves the issue of building 50 stacks in trials, but at the cost of fun.1 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »lol
if you move points from main stat to health and then use this its by far the strongest and most efficient raw damage item in the game.
lot of people really dont know what they are talking about, this went from niche use to possibly required best in slot.
but math is hard i guess.
for those who find numbers tricky.
6000 health is about 5500 raw stat assuming you move attribute points from main stat to health.
5500 raw stat is roughly 550 spell / weapon damage.
OF NOTE raw stats are applied to skills like weapon and spell damage but are not effected by % increases like brutality
stranglers provide 850 of both weapons AND spell damage, so an increase of 300 main stat, 850 off stat.
OF note, it IS effected by brutality, so its at least over 1020 with just a major buff, and can scale higher
bringing the increase up to well over 500 main stat damage, and over 1000 off stat damage.
math is tricky i guess.
That also assumes max stacks, which I guess is now at 50? Going to be much harder to build stacks. Which means when not at max stacks (most people for most of trial content), the benefit is going to be way less and you will have less DPS than you would without the gloves based on the gear sacrifices you likely had to make. Sure you could in theory swap gear as you build stacks, but most people wont.
Another thing this analysis misses is sustain. It is an indirect issue, but lowering your max magic, does reduce your sustain potential, even more so in places like VMA.
stacks last an hour, and do not rest on instance change anymore, build them up when you get in game.WrathOfInnos wrote: »
Does the set take from base health and not scaled health? If it takes from your base health, before modifiers, you are losing far more than 6K health.
scaled not base, 6k after calcs.WrathOfInnos wrote: »daemondamian wrote: »Hapexamendios wrote: »Not worth using on DPS. Health penalty kills it. It's basically for a tank solo questing.
Is that if the tank is still wearing tank gear or has put on some dps sets?
I don't know if their high health pool would mitigate the less resistance from not wearing heavy armor along with the penalties of wearing TS?
Would not be worth doing for 850 damage. 2 5-piece sets add a lot more than that. Even Spell Strategist alone gives 847 Spell Damage, and it’s not the best DPS set just an easy comparison.
spell strategist just got nerf'd on pts. and you can build in different ways other then "giving up a 5 piece" with that being said base line 5th piece damage is 300 damage, obviously stranglers would be better.
That 847 is after the nerf, it is 887 on live.
i actually went and checked cause i thought i miss checked and it didnt get nerf'd.
run them both.
Oh, did not know that part. Still say they have way too many moving parts to this item. It is now simply starting to sound like a chore. My other concern is that even if it is Meta, it now seems almost forced. My guess is also that an organized raid will never start on time again. haha. Raid leaders will be twiddling their thumbs as their DPS scramble to build stacks right at the start of a raid.
Wait, so you can build 50 stacks overland and then bring them into a trial? That seems like something worth mentioning in patch notes, since it completely trivializes the stack building process. I’ll have to try that tonight. I still think the tiny damage increase is not worth the massive health loss though.
@WrathOfInnos
I double checked quickly and did not see anything about that in Patch Notes. If not mentioned there but the stacks are surviving zoning on the PTS, 50/50 its not working as intended, as it seems totally against the original design of these. I have not been on PTS this cycle, so I am clearly just speculating.
We should take a straw poll of end game raiders and see how many want to grind zombies at the start of every trial from this point forward. Sounds terrible if you ask me, but admittedly, my days of pushing score are behind me. Who knows what the kids are into these days.
If it were up to me, I would reduce the live damage by somewhere between 30-50%, reduce the damage taking by about the same amount (maybe a bit less to keep the pressure on), and let stacks fall after 5 minutes if you dont gain any more. See where it lands, and go from there.
I think a simple solution from live would be to cut it to 10 stacks, keep the damage the same at 150 per stack or 1500 at max stacks, but raise the penalty per stack to1+X%, where it adds an extra % of penalty per stack. So stack 1 is 1%, stack 2 is 2% on top of that, all the way up to the 10% from stack 10. So at 10 stacks you get 55% damage, health, and shields debuff, but having less stacks is less of a penalty. Resets still at death and zoning.
Doesnt seem simple if I am being honest. The reality is, how you get to the max stack values doesnt need to be overly complicated. You need to balance around whatever the max stack values are, because that is where people will try to stay
On live, I think the general consensus is that its too much damage gained and not enough of a trade off damage taken when at max stacks. So however you get there, those are the primary factors that need balanced.
The other thing to consider, is how you build stacks, and how long the last. I think the indefinite nature of the stacks as it is on live is primarily an issue in PVP. I think somewhere in the 3-5 minute range would make it so it would still be useful, but if you arent staying in the thick of it, you might not keep all your stacks. This set should force the action IMO. It also makes it less likely for people to leave a keep defense or something to try and build stacks and come back.0 -
thorwyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭On live, I think the general consensus is that its too much damage gained and not enough of a trade off damage taken when at max stacks. So however you get there, those are the primary factors that need balanced.
While I agree that this *should* be the primary factors, I can't help but think that this is just one part of the picture from ZOS's point ov view. This is now the third complete redesign of the item and it is getting clear, that ZOS is not even trying to balance it the way you described. If they wanted to do that, they just could have tweaked the original vaues and leave the base mechanics as they are. But balancing is so 2006! These days, if we see that an item doesn't perform properly, we just toss it into the bin and redesign it.
They are performing their best gymnastics to make this item impossible to use in trials, so they come up with all kinds of crap that seem to hard limit the usage of this item for serious play.And if the dam breaks open many years too soon
And if there is no room upon the hill
And if your head explodes with dark forebodings too
I'll see you on the dark side of the moon4 -
Tanis-Stormbinder✭✭✭✭✭They should just tone down the damage per stack and leave the rest as is. In a later date come out with a Stamina version, simple and DONE!1 -
Auroan✭✭✭Well first, I think they need to figure out what they want their end game to be in the first place, because to me, it seems like they themselves don't even know and are just coming up with random stuff, such as Mythic items, in order to be "innovative", not understanding the impact of having such items will do to the Meta of both PvE and PvP. But they can't just delete the items like it never existed, so they have to try and "balance" items that were probably intended to be OP to begin with.
In regards to Thrassian's, and Mythic items in general, the way I've seen it, each Mythic item appeals to a specific type of gameplay/style. Not all, but most of these items have Risk/Reward factors, that way it's not just an obvious OP/Meta item in competitive PvE/PvP. It's something you can live without, but also something that could be very beneficial, at the cost of sacrificing something in return. The issue with Thrassian's to me is that the Risk/Reward factor isn't "balanced", IE, the Risk greatly out-scales the Reward, as opposed to having the Risk being equal to the Reward. 850 is essentially a Spell Strat, and when you think about it on paper, a 1 piece Spell Strat is OP, but not when you factor in how to obtain it and the Risk involved with having it. Why have that when you can just run a monster set like Maw or Za'an that has no Risks at all and is just pure Rewards?
IMO, the first thing they need to do is remove the timers the stacks have. It's literally useless.
"Finally, the hour longer duration helps better make this set feel permanent, without all the issues that can happen with permanent stacking effects.."
What permanent stacking effects are they talking about? If you don't want the stacks, but don't want to die to remove them, then unequip the item. The whole point of the item is to accumulate stacks to get juicy damage. Not wanting stacks means not wanting to use the item. There's no way to "pause" your stacks, or maybe this might be relevant if the timer was more like 5 minutes. An hour long duration though? There's not a single piece of content in this game where you could possibly go an entire hour without having to kill a single ad. Unless you're harvesting nodes and doing everything in your power to avoid ads in the open world, and refusing to harvest nodes close to ads, it's literally impossible to go an entire hour without killing an ad. You can't even AFK for 1 hour and keep your stacks because you'll be kicked from inactivity after 15 minutes. Like seriously, who came up with this and thought this was necessary and would have any impact on anything in relation to Thrassian and the imbalance it's causing? lmao.
In my opinion, Thrassian would be more balanced and address more of ZOS' concerns if it reflected damage. Lower the stacks from 50, back down to 20. Stacks gained from kill assist is optional, but I think a lot of people would like that change instead of trying to KS ads (especially tiny/weak ones) during dungs/raids in order to steal stacks. Each stack should give 50 instead of 17, totally to 1000 Weapon/Spell damage. Each stack should give either 0.10% or 0.25% damage reflection so that at 20 stacks, you'll have 2% or 5% damage you deal reflected back at you.
This addresses a few things, IMO. The most important one is the need for Healers. Actual Healers. At the moment, most experienced groups have Healers as "Fake Healers". Examples of this is a NB "Healer" with RO/Jorv, which is essentially a DPS that can get a big HA off for big Major Slayer uptimes. They happen to have Springs, Orbs and CP as well. Or the classic MK/Zen set up. Again, a DPS that happens to have a few heal/buff skills. They don't need as much HPS because Tanks are Taunting and DPS aren't standing in stupid. The issue with Thrassian's current Risk/Reward factor is that the Risk has no counter play. The standard DPS will likely be sitting at 10k HP unless you decide to sacrifice your resources for more health, which no one will do. So you either get 1 shot, or you don't. There's no test of skill, at least on the Healers end. Having the damage reflect back at the player does punish those with high DPS, because 2%/5% of a 50k parse won't be as threatening as reflecting a parse that's 100k, but it doesn't cap them because they're free to parse as much as they want as long as their Healers are Healing and not Fake Healing as a DPS/Buff B-tch. Hell, Powered on DPS might even become Meta if people can get it to work with Healers that still act as a DPS using MK/Zen, RO/Jorv, etc.
Additionally, this will help close the gap between Mid-Tier and High-Tier DPS and Healers. High Tier/End Game players will have to calculate and decide which is more beneficial; sacrificing Thrassian's on DPS for MK/Zen, RO/Jorv, etc. on Healers, or visa-versa. They'll try using both to see if it's possible, but the likely answer is they might not take the risk and will find that the MK/Zen, RO/Jorv, etc. on Healers still brings more Group DPS, and is much safer, and thus will just stick with that. However, this provides an opportunity for the Mid-Tier to close the gap a little bit with the High-Tier by choosing the other play-style. Mid-Tier Healers likely have a hard time grasping how to not only heal, but apply MK/Zen, RO/Jorv, etc. at the same time. It's a little above their experience, and some people who play as a Healer want to actually Heal people and not act as a Buff B-tch. However, when doing so, they're met with aggression for having poor uptimes on their 5 piece set bonuses. The buffs granted through the 5 piece sets (such as Major Courage) could be compensated by the use of Thrassian's. Mid Tier DPS using Thrassian's will have a bigger parse and feel the effects less since they're only hitting 50k instead of 90k. Mid-Tier Healers won't have to get attacked for uptimes and can actually focus on Healing and nothing but Healing, which means they're playing how they'd like to and will be able to keep up with the Mid-Tier's DPS that's being reflecting, and End Game players won't complain that casuals are catching up to them but not working as hard because Mid-Tier players still won't be able to achieve GS until they themselves as players improve. It works out for everyone.
If End Gamers are able to figure out how to use Thrassian's with Buff B-tch MK/Zen, RO/Jorv Healers, then simply make small, minor adjustments to the damage reflection instead of trying to rework the entire thing into a clustered mess that has 7 different debuffs that screws the player for using a Mythic item and forcing it into a DOA set piece."And the Scrolls have foretold, of black wings in the cold,That when brothers wage war come unfurled!Alduin, Bane of Kings, ancient shadow unbound,With a hunger to swallow the world!"60k Achievement Point Club1 -
Idinuse✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭gonna miss you friend. i didnt know you for very long, but it sure was fun while it lasted!
Thrassian Stranglers:
Reduced the Weapon and Spell Damage per stack to 17, down from 40.
This set no longer causes you to take 1% more damage per stack, or decreases your healing taken by 1% per stack.
This set now causes you to lose 120 Maximum Health for every stack you have. The maximum stack count stays at 50, resulting in the final stats to be 850 Weapon and Spell Damage, -6000 Health, and -50% shield efficacy.
Increased the duration of the stacks to 1 hour, up from 10 minutes, to better cement the quasi-permanent permanency.
The typical ZOS "give us your $$$ for our new chapter and while we reap the greens you'll have a great time. As soon as sales decline we don't need you anymore so we'll pull that fun right from under you" policy.
I'm not disputing whether the item is or was OP or not, I'm arguing that they shouldn't introduce items and sets like this originally, just to sell a chapter only to then pull/nerf it after they received money from their customers.Edited by Idinuse on July 29, 2020 7:34AMSed ut perspiciatis unde omnis iste natus error sit voluptatem accusantium dolorem que laudantium, totam rem aperiam, eaque ipsa quae ab illo inventore veritatis et quasi architecto beatae vitae dicta sunt explicabo. Nemo enim ipsam voluptatem quia voluptas sit aspernatur aut odit aut fugit, sed quia consequuntur magni dolores eos qui ratione voluptatem sequi nesciunt. Neque porro quisquam est, qui dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit, sed quia non numquam eius modi tempora incidunt ut labore et dolore magnam aliquam quaerat voluptatem. Ut enim ad minima veniam, quis nostrum exercitationem ullam corporis suscipit laboriosam, nisi ut aliquid ex ea commodi consequatur? Quis autem vel eum iure reprehenderit qui in ea voluptate velit esse quam nihil molestiae consequatur, vel illum qui dolorem eum fugiat quo voluptas nulla pariatur?2 -
Idinuse✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭i would so much like people with this kind of topics to also post the link from where they got the infoMythic Items
Thrassian Stranglers:
Reduced the Weapon and Spell Damage per stack to 17, down from 40.
This set no longer causes you to take 1% more damage per stack, or decreases your healing taken by 1% per stack.
This set now causes you to lose 120 Maximum Health for every stack you have. The maximum stack count stays at 50, resulting in the final stats to be 850 Weapon and Spell Damage, -6000 Health, and -50% shield efficacy.
Increased the duration of the stacks to 1 hour, up from 10 minutes, to better cement the quasi-permanent permanency.
Developer Comment:
Based on much of the feedback we saw from the Developer Comment in last week’s PTS patch, we decided to spend more time looking at the curse aspect of gameplay this set involved, as well as its maximum power threshold it added. By more aggressively reigning in the ceiling this set provides, we can more safely allow the set to exist in content, even when smart players find clever ways to bypass the curse involved.
With the loss of Max Health, rather than increase of damage taken, we can make the curse feel more visceral as it's something you can see rather than feel after it's too late to react. Additionally, the reduction in Max Health better balances this set with damage shields, as many of these abilities are capped to your Max Health; by lowering your Max Health, their size is also lowered. We're still keeping the penalty to shield strength though, as there are plenty of other methods you can try to use to help alleviate the penalty, which we like, but don't want you to be able to completely ignore it. Finally, the hour longer duration helps better make this set feel permanent, without all the issues that can happen with permanent stacking effects.
With all of these adjustments, we're hoping to see a much better balance between the DPS gaps we saw expand in Greymoor, as well as a more visceral curse that inhibits your ability to freely manipulate this powerful set.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6881984/#Comment_6881984
Under Mythic Items.Sed ut perspiciatis unde omnis iste natus error sit voluptatem accusantium dolorem que laudantium, totam rem aperiam, eaque ipsa quae ab illo inventore veritatis et quasi architecto beatae vitae dicta sunt explicabo. Nemo enim ipsam voluptatem quia voluptas sit aspernatur aut odit aut fugit, sed quia consequuntur magni dolores eos qui ratione voluptatem sequi nesciunt. Neque porro quisquam est, qui dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit, sed quia non numquam eius modi tempora incidunt ut labore et dolore magnam aliquam quaerat voluptatem. Ut enim ad minima veniam, quis nostrum exercitationem ullam corporis suscipit laboriosam, nisi ut aliquid ex ea commodi consequatur? Quis autem vel eum iure reprehenderit qui in ea voluptate velit esse quam nihil molestiae consequatur, vel illum qui dolorem eum fugiat quo voluptas nulla pariatur?0 -
scorpius2k1✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yeah that really makes me want to take all the time using the new Scrying system to grind for a Mythic item. What about reworking mythic gear so it adds something to your EXISTING compatible gear instead? Not saying overpower anything into oblivion, but add an extra perk or buff that compliments your current setup. Another idea, maybe create slots on certain higher-end gear sets that can be enhanced with compatible mythic items? I'm sure there are a plethora of better ideas that could be implemented instead of what it is now.
Mythic gear just seems out of place at the moment imho and the current offerings coming up even more pointless when there are more viable options to choose from. It's new so who knows what will happen as it settles in more. I can't say I'm surprised though with the nerfstorm. Overpowered introduction of something new and mega nerfing next patch. Tipping the scales from one extreme to the next is typical with everything ESO. Some might say, the nature of an MMO.
"Balance" seems to be the word of complete irony.
/shrug🌎 PC/NA
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🧑💻 ESO Addon Dev
⚔️ Stamplar | Magplar | Stamcro | Magsorc | Magcro Healer0 -
Raudgrani✭✭✭✭✭
✭So useless. Remove the entire set from the game, or whatever. Now it's completely useless. The intended changes was like, "Ok, not as good - but it's perhaps a bit more useful now, however not as strong, and more situational". This is just BAD. Bad, bad, bad.
I kind of mocked the ones who cried about the first suggested change, but this truly.... Is just BAD. Useless, literally. I can't understand how ZOS didn't realize this set was a BAD IDEA to start with(?), then (as usual) realizing their mistake. This time however, they don't only "nerf" it. They ruin it entirely.1 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Another great way to fix this if you ask me:
In PVE, the set is disabled in a group of more than 4. This keeps the fun for dungeons and arenas, but removes it from trials completely, which seems to be what they are trying to do anyway (and to be honest, I get it).
In PVP, you can only build stacks by killing an enemy player. NPCs wont build stacks. This makes it far more difficult to quickly build stacks, but does reward you when you are on a roll. You could also limit the group size to 4 as well. Probably doesnt matter. Most ball groups go in and out of stealth enough that Thrassians is not super practical anyway.
Leave everything else exactly as is on live (add weapon damage if you want).Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on July 29, 2020 6:14PM0 -
Elvenheart✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The Thrassian Stranglers checkmark all the boxes of what it means to be a damage dealer.1 -
Myrddin1357✭✭✭
This makes no sense at all. Using thrassian means either giving up a 5th piece of a 5 piece set or the 2nd piece of a 2 piece monster set.
Monster sets add roughly 2 to 3k to your dps. 850 spell damage might add more than 3k to your dps, but this comes at a cost of 8k health. Maybe in normal non-dlc dungeon this trade could work but cant imagine it anywhere else.
Average value of 5th piece is probably around 400 spell damage (julianos give 300 and sets like spell strat/scathingmage probably gets you closer to 500). Again no one would give up 8k health for an extra 350 extra damage even for normal dungeons.
They need to go back to the drawing board on this lol.
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