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The maintenance is complete, and the PTS is now back online and patch 10.0.2 is available.
@ZOS Request: Reinstate Caluurion's crit activation mechanic
fred4
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Caluurion is the only significant magicka burst damage set on live (that I'm aware of). It is popular with nightblades, because they can control it's activation. It arguably fulfils a role in enabling melee magicka nightblades as they seek to maximize it's potential by ganking from close range. This is a class and playstyle that is widely regarded as weak in PvP, brought up to par by this set.
Removing the crit damage activation mechanic, as is the case on the PTS, accomplishes two things. It opens the set up for combination with Malacath's Band of Brutality. Secondly it makes the set more attractive to more builds, low crit or no crit (Malacath) builds on other classes, that will now be able to somewhat reliably control activation via bar swapping.
I would hereby like to register my concern that this is dangerous to PvP balance and request that the crit activation mechanic be reinstated. Caluurion is in a unique place as a magicka burst set on live. It has been valued in it's niche. It is a powerful set that is balanced, on live, by an activation mechanic which makes it primarily attractive to a weak class (magblade) and less so to other classes. This mechanic has also prevented combination with Malacath, which I regard as appropriate for it's power.
Please upvote or leave a comment to get this back onto the first page of the forum, if you agree. I know there are larger issues at play, but I am hoping that, by asking for a small change, this is something ZOS can easily accommodate. They could also roll back all Caluurion changes, as far as I'm concerned. This is not meant to be mutually exclusive to other adjustments ZOS might perform to allay fears of an upcoming proc meta.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_JessicaFolsom
Edited by fred4 on July 26, 2020 4:22PM Removing the crit damage activation mechanic, as is the case on the PTS, accomplishes two things. It opens the set up for combination with Malacath's Band of Brutality. Secondly it makes the set more attractive to more builds, low crit or no crit (Malacath) builds on other classes, that will now be able to somewhat reliably control activation via bar swapping.
I would hereby like to register my concern that this is dangerous to PvP balance and request that the crit activation mechanic be reinstated. Caluurion is in a unique place as a magicka burst set on live. It has been valued in it's niche. It is a powerful set that is balanced, on live, by an activation mechanic which makes it primarily attractive to a weak class (magblade) and less so to other classes. This mechanic has also prevented combination with Malacath, which I regard as appropriate for it's power.
Please upvote or leave a comment to get this back onto the first page of the forum, if you agree. I know there are larger issues at play, but I am hoping that, by asking for a small change, this is something ZOS can easily accommodate. They could also roll back all Caluurion changes, as far as I'm concerned. This is not meant to be mutually exclusive to other adjustments ZOS might perform to allay fears of an upcoming proc meta.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_JessicaFolsom
PC EU (EP): Magicka NB (main), Stamina NB, Stamina DK, Stamina Sorcerer, Magicka Warden, Magicka Templar, Stamina Templar
PC NA (EP): Magicka NB
PC NA (EP): Magicka NB
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Langeston✭✭✭✭✭
✭I agree. I don't use the set (and don't even particularly like it) but the crit requirement should definitely be left on.
(OT: Fred, if I were you I would change the word "petition" in the first sentence of the third paragraph of your post to "request" before an overzealous moderator hops in and shuts down the thread.)3 -
Lughlongarm✭✭✭✭✭I tend to agree.
I think Zos should consider adding more activation restrictions to all of the proc sets that easy to proc or changed from "%" basis.
-Red mountain should be "When you deal "DIRECT" damage with a Weapon"(cd increase to 3 sec).
-Winterborn - should work with a Cold Damage ability only(no LA/HA)
- Sheer venom - you deal "Direct" damage with an Execute ability up to 3 targets.
Things like that.....2 -
fred4✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I agree. I don't use the set (and don't even particularly like it) but the crit requirement should definitely be left on.
(OT: Fred, if I were you I would change the word "petition" in the first sentence of the third paragraph of your post to "request" before an overzealous moderator hops in and shuts down the thread.)
We're not allowed to use that word? Is there precedent? That seems strange.PC EU (EP): Magicka NB (main), Stamina NB, Stamina DK, Stamina Sorcerer, Magicka Warden, Magicka Templar, Stamina Templar
PC NA (EP): Magicka NB1 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I agree. I don't use the set (and don't even particularly like it) but the crit requirement should definitely be left on.
(OT: Fred, if I were you I would change the word "petition" in the first sentence of the third paragraph of your post to "request" before an overzealous moderator hops in and shuts down the thread.)
We're not allowed to use that word? Is there precedent? That seems strange.
"Petitions and Protests: We do not allow petitions or protests on our forums. Due to the fact that both promote the use of demands and replies that consist of “/signed” or little else, we feel that neither encourage nor allow for meaningful and constructive discussion. Instead of using a petition or protest, we recommend presenting your thoughts as a request or suggestion so everyone in the community can discuss it."
Pinned to the top of the General forum.0 -
Lughlongarm✭✭✭✭✭
Ok, in PVE crit is king so no Malacath's, and meta is to walk around with 70% crit chance. So it makes 0 difference in PVE. This set will not be used in PVE regardless.2 -
Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »shhhhhhhh....my dk is looking forward to using this
Yeah, Caluurion is best on DK as it is on PTS lol...
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ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭Lughlongarm wrote: »I tend to agree.
I think Zos should consider adding more activation restrictions to all of the proc sets that easy to proc or changed from "%" basis.
-Red mountain should be "When you deal "DIRECT" damage with a Weapon"(cd increase to 3 sec).
-Winterborn - should work with a Cold Damage ability only(no LA/HA)
- Sheer venom - you deal "Direct" damage with an Execute ability up to 3 targets.
Things like that.....
Agreed, if procs are going to be guaranteed and not % based, then I think having more diverse and restrictive conditions are required.
This gives the ability to provide synergy or anti-synergy between procs and specific builds/items, or to restrict the usage of certain procs together if they are problematic (by having mutually exclusive conditions).
To me this is a better solution than simply reducing their power - instead of making them weak and easily accessible, let them stay powerful but have more specific conditions or niche applications.
With regard to the specific case presented by OP, Caluurions, I would agree.
(but I guess that's unsurprising as I use it similarly to OP)1 -
JinxxND✭✭✭✭This seems like such a no brainer to put the crit requirement back on idk what they were thinking removing it, as that was the biggest thing keeping the set in check.PC NA -
'Jinxx - Nightblade
'Jinxx X Necromancer0 -
fred4✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Well, I guess it was in the works, but: Yay!PC EU (EP): Magicka NB (main), Stamina NB, Stamina DK, Stamina Sorcerer, Magicka Warden, Magicka Templar, Stamina Templar
PC NA (EP): Magicka NB0 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Good change, i dont think the base dmg needed to be upped, but fine.
Now ill run it with slimecraw for 8% more dmg, and use charged staff to proc minor vuln as well for another 8%.0 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭They just buffed it big time too. From live that is. More damage, faster fire. Can now be used with stam builds. Won't work with malacath but that is good. I'll definitely continue running this with my mag Sorc. Just need to figure out what set to replace my front barred NMA with.0 -
Lughlongarm✭✭✭✭✭They just buffed it big time too. From live that is. More damage, faster fire. Can now be used with stam builds. Won't work with malacath but that is good. I'll definitely continue running this with my mag Sorc. Just need to figure out what set to replace my front barred NMA with.
Well it got a 10% damage boost the to its core value, it basically like having malacath on live.0 -
Funny it seems like they're listening, Crit condition has been re-instated according to 6.1.2 notes.0
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fred4✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It's a buff, but I don't think it's a big time buff compared to some of the other things that are happening. The speed was also very slow to begin with.
I wonder whether it will proc from ultimates now. Can you imagine a Caluurion DK leap? I don't know. Would suit a build that backbars Leap ... on the chance that it will crit. You could design a build around that ... maybe with Acuity.
You can buff it with Slimecraw or Balorgh ... then again you can also just wear Zaan and you get a reliable activation out of Flame Blossom now. That might make for a nasty ganker. Does Red Mountain take two seconds to activate or one? Cause that's another possibility. It almost seems like they designed those two sets to work on either stamina or magicka ... or some sort of hybrid nightblade. Probably won't give you the right stats ... even for a hybrid proc build.PC EU (EP): Magicka NB (main), Stamina NB, Stamina DK, Stamina Sorcerer, Magicka Warden, Magicka Templar, Stamina Templar
PC NA (EP): Magicka NB0 -
Azurya✭✭✭✭✭
✭I agree. I don't use the set (and don't even particularly like it) but the crit requirement should definitely be left on.
(OT: Fred, if I were you I would change the word "petition" in the first sentence of the third paragraph of your post to "request" before an overzealous moderator hops in and shuts down the thread.)
Yes I basically agree with OP.
I use the set on my Spellblade, it is awesome there but only for niche-use.
That does not matter very much, cauze there are for other classes/playstyles legion of choices to fit your requirments.
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fred4✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Actually I didn't realise how fast it will be, but now saw that in a video. The patch notes mentioned a slight speedup, but the speedup is really significant. Not sure what to think of that. I reckon it will help builds that seek to control the proc, but may be an impediment to builds that reactively try to pile on burst, when they see it firing, such as sorcs or magplars. Maybe it'll help server performance to keep it in the air for less time...PC EU (EP): Magicka NB (main), Stamina NB, Stamina DK, Stamina Sorcerer, Magicka Warden, Magicka Templar, Stamina Templar
PC NA (EP): Magicka NB0 -
DUTCH_REAPER✭✭✭✭✭
✭Only thing i am confused about with the proc sets....
Stam- all stam have there procs for vipers red mountain charge etc no restrictions except to use a specific skill.
Mag use of caalurions - must crit to use was reinstated so basically only mnb can successfully use this in pvp with guarantee a proc every 10 secs by hitting cloak.
Why would all of you magic users want to hinder the other magic classes in pvp by saying reinstate the crit? it only procs once every 10 secs. all the other stam set counter parts dont have a crit requirement meaning any stam can use the other sets. So why complain and make them revert it back to crit must use to proc?
Genuinely curious and hoping someone can explain this logic to me? Because in my eyes, i see the proc meta coming back and would want all magic classes to have access to this set with 100% guarantee it would go off to time burst on stam users.0 -
casparian✭✭✭✭✭
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I think there are two primary reasons to like the change:DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »Only thing i am confused about with the proc sets....
Stam- all stam have there procs for vipers red mountain charge etc no restrictions except to use a specific skill.
Mag use of caalurions - must crit to use was reinstated so basically only mnb can successfully use this in pvp with guarantee a proc every 10 secs by hitting cloak.
Why would all of you magic users want to hinder the other magic classes in pvp by saying reinstate the crit? it only procs once every 10 secs. all the other stam set counter parts dont have a crit requirement meaning any stam can use the other sets. So why complain and make them revert it back to crit must use to proc?
Genuinely curious and hoping someone can explain this logic to me? Because in my eyes, i see the proc meta coming back and would want all magic classes to have access to this set with 100% guarantee it would go off to time burst on stam users.
1. Most stam proc sets don't deal large spikes of burst damage like Cal does. The stam proc sets that do offer large burst damage are either harder to set up (Doylemish) or easier to avoid (Selene) than Cal. So in order to balance Cal, it needs to have some kind of restriction.
2. Arguably, there should be no proc sets with instant, controllable bursts of spike damage. As much as I would enjoy getting to make a nigh-uncounterable ganker out of my magNB, it's better for the game if I can't.
Perhaps you're right that other mag classes need better proc sets -- I kind of doubt it, since Overwhelming Surge, Grothdarr, Kjalnar etc. exist, but maybe you're right. But a Caluurion with no restriction other than a moderately sized cooldown is not the answer to that problem.7-day PVP campaign regular 2016-2019, Flawless Conqueror. MagDK/stamplar/stamwarden/mageblade. Requiem, Legend, Knights of Daggerfall. Currently retired from the wars; waiting on performance improvements.1 -
DUTCH_REAPER✭✭✭✭✭
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I think there are two primary reasons to like the change:DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »Only thing i am confused about with the proc sets....
Stam- all stam have there procs for vipers red mountain charge etc no restrictions except to use a specific skill.
Mag use of caalurions - must crit to use was reinstated so basically only mnb can successfully use this in pvp with guarantee a proc every 10 secs by hitting cloak.
Why would all of you magic users want to hinder the other magic classes in pvp by saying reinstate the crit? it only procs once every 10 secs. all the other stam set counter parts dont have a crit requirement meaning any stam can use the other sets. So why complain and make them revert it back to crit must use to proc?
Genuinely curious and hoping someone can explain this logic to me? Because in my eyes, i see the proc meta coming back and would want all magic classes to have access to this set with 100% guarantee it would go off to time burst on stam users.
1. Most stam proc sets don't deal large spikes of burst damage like Cal does. The stam proc sets that do offer large burst damage are either harder to set up (Doylemish) or easier to avoid (Selene) than Cal. So in order to balance Cal, it needs to have some kind of restriction.
2. Arguably, there should be no proc sets with instant, controllable bursts of spike damage. As much as I would enjoy getting to make a nigh-uncounterable ganker out of my magNB, it's better for the game if I can't.
Perhaps you're right that other mag classes need better proc sets -- I kind of doubt it, since Overwhelming Surge, Grothdarr, Kjalnar etc. exist, but maybe you're right. But a Caluurion with no restriction other than a moderately sized cooldown is not the answer to that problem.
Thank you for you response.
To counter i would argue that with a proc meta we are going to see VMA 2h bleed proc as well as vipers sting all from one attack. So we will see crit charge, plus VMA Bleed plus Viper. 3 hits in one attack
magic user who want to build dps and not tank tank tank will have what as a variation of the above mentioned?
would you suggest a good restriction to use caal Leg be maybe you have to get in close to the target instead of being so far away that way it falls in line with get in close do a lot of damage but nnow u r in range to be attacked back.0 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »
I think there are two primary reasons to like the change:DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »Only thing i am confused about with the proc sets....
Stam- all stam have there procs for vipers red mountain charge etc no restrictions except to use a specific skill.
Mag use of caalurions - must crit to use was reinstated so basically only mnb can successfully use this in pvp with guarantee a proc every 10 secs by hitting cloak.
Why would all of you magic users want to hinder the other magic classes in pvp by saying reinstate the crit? it only procs once every 10 secs. all the other stam set counter parts dont have a crit requirement meaning any stam can use the other sets. So why complain and make them revert it back to crit must use to proc?
Genuinely curious and hoping someone can explain this logic to me? Because in my eyes, i see the proc meta coming back and would want all magic classes to have access to this set with 100% guarantee it would go off to time burst on stam users.
1. Most stam proc sets don't deal large spikes of burst damage like Cal does. The stam proc sets that do offer large burst damage are either harder to set up (Doylemish) or easier to avoid (Selene) than Cal. So in order to balance Cal, it needs to have some kind of restriction.
2. Arguably, there should be no proc sets with instant, controllable bursts of spike damage. As much as I would enjoy getting to make a nigh-uncounterable ganker out of my magNB, it's better for the game if I can't.
Perhaps you're right that other mag classes need better proc sets -- I kind of doubt it, since Overwhelming Surge, Grothdarr, Kjalnar etc. exist, but maybe you're right. But a Caluurion with no restriction other than a moderately sized cooldown is not the answer to that problem.
Thank you for you response.
To counter i would argue that with a proc meta we are going to see VMA 2h bleed proc as well as vipers sting all from one attack. So we will see crit charge, plus VMA Bleed plus Viper. 3 hits in one attack
magic user who want to build dps and not tank tank tank will have what as a variation of the above mentioned?
would you suggest a good restriction to use caal Leg be maybe you have to get in close to the target instead of being so far away that way it falls in line with get in close do a lot of damage but nnow u r in range to be attacked back.
Making so you have to get in close to use caluurians is more of a hindrance than needing a crit. Sure magblades can guarantee a crit on cooldown, the crit chance is enough that you will mostly proc it on cooldown anyways. It is just not controllable. So rather than controlling the burst with the proc, you have to burst around the proc, which is more difficult to line up and keeps the proc in line.
Having to get in close pretty much only makes the set useful for magblades who can cloak in close.0 -
DUTCH_REAPER✭✭✭✭✭
✭DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »
I think there are two primary reasons to like the change:DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »Only thing i am confused about with the proc sets....
Stam- all stam have there procs for vipers red mountain charge etc no restrictions except to use a specific skill.
Mag use of caalurions - must crit to use was reinstated so basically only mnb can successfully use this in pvp with guarantee a proc every 10 secs by hitting cloak.
Why would all of you magic users want to hinder the other magic classes in pvp by saying reinstate the crit? it only procs once every 10 secs. all the other stam set counter parts dont have a crit requirement meaning any stam can use the other sets. So why complain and make them revert it back to crit must use to proc?
Genuinely curious and hoping someone can explain this logic to me? Because in my eyes, i see the proc meta coming back and would want all magic classes to have access to this set with 100% guarantee it would go off to time burst on stam users.
1. Most stam proc sets don't deal large spikes of burst damage like Cal does. The stam proc sets that do offer large burst damage are either harder to set up (Doylemish) or easier to avoid (Selene) than Cal. So in order to balance Cal, it needs to have some kind of restriction.
2. Arguably, there should be no proc sets with instant, controllable bursts of spike damage. As much as I would enjoy getting to make a nigh-uncounterable ganker out of my magNB, it's better for the game if I can't.
Perhaps you're right that other mag classes need better proc sets -- I kind of doubt it, since Overwhelming Surge, Grothdarr, Kjalnar etc. exist, but maybe you're right. But a Caluurion with no restriction other than a moderately sized cooldown is not the answer to that problem.
Thank you for you response.
To counter i would argue that with a proc meta we are going to see VMA 2h bleed proc as well as vipers sting all from one attack. So we will see crit charge, plus VMA Bleed plus Viper. 3 hits in one attack
magic user who want to build dps and not tank tank tank will have what as a variation of the above mentioned?
would you suggest a good restriction to use caal Leg be maybe you have to get in close to the target instead of being so far away that way it falls in line with get in close do a lot of damage but nnow u r in range to be attacked back.
Making so you have to get in close to use caluurians is more of a hindrance than needing a crit. Sure magblades can guarantee a crit on cooldown, the crit chance is enough that you will mostly proc it on cooldown anyways. It is just not controllable. So rather than controlling the burst with the proc, you have to burst around the proc, which is more difficult to line up and keeps the proc in line.
Having to get in close pretty much only makes the set useful for magblades who can cloak in close.
I would have to respectfully disagree with you. Many magic classes get in close and fight as a playstyle. mDK, Mplar, mwarden, these are classes who get in close regularly to a target. If you leave the caal leg with crit requirement only magnb will and can use this set successfully in pvp.
edit also i use this set on my mnb and find it really easy to time every 10 secs to get my burst. it is not difficult. the only thing you are doing is making the set to where only mnb can use itEdited by DUTCH_REAPER on July 29, 2020 7:41PM0 -
Kungfu✭✭✭✭Seems to me having such a high spike damage from range might be a deterrent for people who don't like getting hit by Caalurion's. I get that. To be perfectly honest, I don't know the last time I died from a Caal proc.
But I run magplar and I'm always in close. I think opening it up to short-range would make Caal available for MANY more classes. I don't need stealth to get in close... that's why DK's have chains or leaps, magplars have a charge, sorcs have a streak, NBs without cloak could be said to use lotus fan.
I won't mention mag warden or mag necro though - (1) I'm pretty ignorant of their abilities and (2) I think they're pretty weak in pvp atm.
So... what if the proc was linked to a charge/pull/teleport/leap ability like ... oh wtf was that other set I saw recently like that?1 -
DUTCH_REAPER✭✭✭✭✭
✭I just see all magic classes being severely limited on proc damage choices if zos keeps the set with crit chance to proc. Might as well change the name of the set from caalurions legacy to Magic Nightblade only set because that is the only ones using it in pvp currently.0 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The crit proc condition is not limiting anything to magnbs though, whereas being close is limiting only to close playstyles. Trust me, the crit condition is incredibly easy to manage. I wear this set on my sorc, at distance and I delay my burst until it procs, and it wrecks people.
All mag classes can use this set without any issues. You just have to be a little be more skillful to do so, which is entirely something that should exist with proc sets. And with that, yes, many of the other stam procs are too easy to proc. They should be retuned as well, not the other way around.0 -
DUTCH_REAPER✭✭✭✭✭
✭The crit proc condition is not limiting anything to magnbs though, whereas being close is limiting only to close playstyles. Trust me, the crit condition is incredibly easy to manage. I wear this set on my sorc, at distance and I delay my burst until it procs, and it wrecks people.
All mag classes can use this set without any issues. You just have to be a little be more skillful to do so, which is entirely something that should exist with proc sets. And with that, yes, many of the other stam procs are too easy to proc. They should be retuned as well, not the other way around.
so u have a crit build mag sorc. I understand you would feel territorial on a piece of gear that gives u access to burst that you built for. The set caals is extremely easy to manage its burst with crit. My argument again.....is why should it have a crit requirement making it a niche build use. no one has givin me a reason. Saying build for crit is not a reason. no other stam set has that requirement to proc damage. and neither should caal.0 -
Kungfu✭✭✭✭yes, many of the other stam procs are too easy to proc.
At least we agree on something.They should be retuned as well, not the other way around.
Though I disagree here. I'm a firm believer that nerfing things should be a last resort. Instead, counter options / abilities / procs should always be brought UP to meet demands where ever possible. This is a simple player morale stance. When nerfs happen, people get frustrated. When counters are brought UP to current standards, it makes more players happy than frustrated.
That said, you cannot "manage" a Caalurion's proc. It's a random thing. The fact that you run it with sorc says that you're not really managing it... just waiting for it to happen. So you're dotting up your target, stacking your execute on it/them. And then you smile & profit if / when the proc goes off. That's great! But if the crit requirement was removed, you actually COULD truly "Manage" your proc. With a semi-randomized proc based off a **chance** to crit, you are really only fooling yourself by stating that you have any control over it whatsoever. RNG.Edited by Kungfu on July 29, 2020 8:03PM0 -
DUTCH_REAPER✭✭✭✭✭
✭also jaws i would argue it needs to be made closer to proc, why should a crit glass cannon build sorc have access to instant high burst damage from range and can streak away? see what I mean. the set needs to have the proc crit condition removed.0
