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Cyrodiil performance – a different approach
HankTwo
✭✭✭✭✭
Hello fellow forum members,
by now we all should have heard about the upcoming AOE tests ZOS is planning to do right now. And while I'm happy that they try to find solutions for the lag, I'm worrying about their approach. Imo, the proposed changes would destroy a lot of playstyles, and at the very least would require rebalancing of a ton of skills, an endeavour that could take a very long time. However, this is not exactly the topic of my thread. Here, I want to present a different, softer approach to the lag.
First of all the big question is what causes the lag? Judging from experience its a combination of:
- dedicated ball groups
- huge faction stacks
- which both generally overload the server capacities because of the amount of calculations that are necessary for them
So, how could we approach this problem differently? I want to show 4 different and somewhat independent approaches, that each could reduce the lag either by changing how the game works or by trying to change player behaviour. Note, that all of these changes could be restricted to PvP only!
1) Introduction of player target caps on all AOE group utility tools and AOE group buffs. Any of the following skills would always apply to yourself, and 3 additional allies. This change would include:
- AOE group utility tools, like purge and rapid maneuver
- AOE active group buffs, like molten weapons and frost cloak
- AOE passive group buffs, like hemorrhage , mountains blessing , illuminate and exploitation passive
- And optionally: defensive AOE ults without a harsh range restriction, like barrier and rite of passage
Note, that these changes would be intended nerfs to ball groups. 12 good PvPers playing together would still dominate, but now individual raid members you would have to put more effort into personal utility tools and buffs themselves.
2) Restricting all of the above plus every smart, multi targeted heal to group members only. This would mean that you can't heal non-group members with smart heals like radiating regeneration anymore, but it would still be possible with targeted heals like living trellis or true AOE heals like grand healing. In light of the above, every single target heal, like rapid regeneration, should be changed from smart heal to player targeted, if that is not already the case. Some additional, reasonable changes would be:
- Radiating regeneration morph: This morph now always heals the caster and up to 3 group members. Reduce the amount it heals by 25% to keep the total healing the same but reduce the power on any single target. This change would make this skill match standard group size
- Twilight matriarch: Change the special ability of this pet to always heal itself, and one additional, player targeted, ally (down from smart healing 2)
- Change any synergy that AOE heals to single target, synergy user heal only (looking at you energy orb). Additionally, they could remove the unlimited synergies per single cast of orbs altogether.
These changes would most likely reduce load on the server, since now only group members would be taken into consideration for smart heals and buffs.
3) Reducing the maximum group size to 12 people. This change, in combination with point 2), would make big faction stacks less desirable, and fights between two opposing stacks would end much faster, since there would be less auto targeted cross healing. There should be more focus on actual, active group gameplay. To improve this further ZOS should implement some much needed quality of life group tool utilities, like an improved group leader crown compass and a minimap where you can see your group members.
4) Removing any form of AP leeching in Cyrodiil as best as possible, since the current reward system leads to players flocking to any objective marked on the map for the reward, resulting in stacks getting larger and larger. AP should be distributed in a way that heavily rewards actually fighting for an objective. If players arrive late to an already about-to-be-capped keep or resource, they should get no AP at all. This could be accomplished via an objective reward tier system. The more enemy players, and to a lesser extend NPC flag guards, you kill, as well as the more in combat low health allies you heal, the higher your reward tier would be. On top of this, the total AP should be somewhat spread among the amount of players that participated. For example, if 12 players cap a resource without any enemy players defending, the individual AP gain should be very low. On the other hand, if a single player defeats all guards and then 11 other players arrive after the flags are already flipping, the single player should get a reasonable amount of AP, while the other players should get none. To balance this out, overall AP gain from objectives should be adjusted accordingly. This change would mostly be intended to change player behaviour. Spreading out to different objectives would be much more rewarding than stomping a single one with a huge faction stack.
So, these would be my ideas. Now I'm curious about your thoughts.
Edited by HankTwo on July 28, 2020 9:08PM by now we all should have heard about the upcoming AOE tests ZOS is planning to do right now. And while I'm happy that they try to find solutions for the lag, I'm worrying about their approach. Imo, the proposed changes would destroy a lot of playstyles, and at the very least would require rebalancing of a ton of skills, an endeavour that could take a very long time. However, this is not exactly the topic of my thread. Here, I want to present a different, softer approach to the lag.
First of all the big question is what causes the lag? Judging from experience its a combination of:
- dedicated ball groups
- huge faction stacks
- which both generally overload the server capacities because of the amount of calculations that are necessary for them
So, how could we approach this problem differently? I want to show 4 different and somewhat independent approaches, that each could reduce the lag either by changing how the game works or by trying to change player behaviour. Note, that all of these changes could be restricted to PvP only!
1) Introduction of player target caps on all AOE group utility tools and AOE group buffs. Any of the following skills would always apply to yourself, and 3 additional allies. This change would include:
- AOE group utility tools, like purge and rapid maneuver
- AOE active group buffs, like molten weapons and frost cloak
- AOE passive group buffs, like hemorrhage , mountains blessing , illuminate and exploitation passive
- And optionally: defensive AOE ults without a harsh range restriction, like barrier and rite of passage
Note, that these changes would be intended nerfs to ball groups. 12 good PvPers playing together would still dominate, but now individual raid members you would have to put more effort into personal utility tools and buffs themselves.
2) Restricting all of the above plus every smart, multi targeted heal to group members only. This would mean that you can't heal non-group members with smart heals like radiating regeneration anymore, but it would still be possible with targeted heals like living trellis or true AOE heals like grand healing. In light of the above, every single target heal, like rapid regeneration, should be changed from smart heal to player targeted, if that is not already the case. Some additional, reasonable changes would be:
- Radiating regeneration morph: This morph now always heals the caster and up to 3 group members. Reduce the amount it heals by 25% to keep the total healing the same but reduce the power on any single target. This change would make this skill match standard group size
- Twilight matriarch: Change the special ability of this pet to always heal itself, and one additional, player targeted, ally (down from smart healing 2)
- Change any synergy that AOE heals to single target, synergy user heal only (looking at you energy orb). Additionally, they could remove the unlimited synergies per single cast of orbs altogether.
These changes would most likely reduce load on the server, since now only group members would be taken into consideration for smart heals and buffs.
3) Reducing the maximum group size to 12 people. This change, in combination with point 2), would make big faction stacks less desirable, and fights between two opposing stacks would end much faster, since there would be less auto targeted cross healing. There should be more focus on actual, active group gameplay. To improve this further ZOS should implement some much needed quality of life group tool utilities, like an improved group leader crown compass and a minimap where you can see your group members.
4) Removing any form of AP leeching in Cyrodiil as best as possible, since the current reward system leads to players flocking to any objective marked on the map for the reward, resulting in stacks getting larger and larger. AP should be distributed in a way that heavily rewards actually fighting for an objective. If players arrive late to an already about-to-be-capped keep or resource, they should get no AP at all. This could be accomplished via an objective reward tier system. The more enemy players, and to a lesser extend NPC flag guards, you kill, as well as the more in combat low health allies you heal, the higher your reward tier would be. On top of this, the total AP should be somewhat spread among the amount of players that participated. For example, if 12 players cap a resource without any enemy players defending, the individual AP gain should be very low. On the other hand, if a single player defeats all guards and then 11 other players arrive after the flags are already flipping, the single player should get a reasonable amount of AP, while the other players should get none. To balance this out, overall AP gain from objectives should be adjusted accordingly. This change would mostly be intended to change player behaviour. Spreading out to different objectives would be much more rewarding than stomping a single one with a huge faction stack.
So, these would be my ideas. Now I'm curious about your thoughts.
PC EU
Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK
Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK
1
-
NeoXanthus✭✭✭✭Hello fellow forum members,
by now we all should have heard about the upcoming AOE tests ZOS is planning to do right now. And while I'm happy that they try to find solutions for the lag, I'm worrying about their approach. Imo, the proposed changes would destroy a lot of playstyles, and at the very least would require rebalancing of a ton of skills, an endeavour that could take a very long time. However, this is not exactly the topic of my thread. Here, I want to present a different, softer approach to the lag.
First of all the big question is what causes the lag? Judging from experience its a combination of:
- dedicated ball groups
- huge faction stacks
- which both generally overload the server capacities because of the amount of calculations that are necessary for them
So, how could we approach this problem differently? I want to show 4 different and somewhat independent approaches, that each could reduce the lag either by changing how the game works or by trying to change player behaviour. Note, that all of these changes could be restricted to PvP only!
1) Introduction of player target caps on all AOE group utility tools and AOE group buffs. Any of the following skills would always apply to yourself, and 3 additional allies. This change would include:
- AOE group utility tools, like purge and rapid maneuver
- AOE active group buffs, like molten weapons and frost cloak
- AOE passive group buffs, like hemorrhage , mountains blessing , illuminate and exploitation passive
- And optionally: defensive AOE ults without a harsh range restriction, like barrier and rite of passage
Note, that these changes would be intended nerfs to ball groups. 12 good PvPers playing together would still dominate, but now individual raid members you would have to put more effort into personal utility tools and buffs themselves.
2) Restricting all of the above plus every smart, multi targeted heal to group members only. This would mean that you can't heal non-group members with smart heals like radiating regeneration anymore, but it would still be possible with targeted heals like living trellis or true AOE heals like grand healing. In light of the above, every single target heal, like rapid regeneration, should be changed from smart heal to player targeted, if that is not already the case. Some additional, reasonable changes would be:
- Radiating regeneration morph: This morph now always heals the caster and up to 3 group members. Reduce the amount it heals by 25% to keep the total healing the same but reduce the power on any single target. This change would make this skill match standard group size
- Twilight matriarch: Change the special ability of this pet to always heal itself, and one additional, player targeted, ally (down from smart healing 2)
- Change any synergy that AOE heals to single target, synergy user heal only (looking at you energy orb). Additionally, they could remove the unlimited synergies per single cast of orbs altogether.
These changes would most likely reduce load on the server, since now only group members would be taken into consideration for smart heals and buffs.
3) Reducing the maximum group size to 12 people. This change, in combination with point 2), would make big faction stacks less desirable, and fights between two opposing stacks would end much faster, since there would be less auto targeted cross healing. There should be more focus on actual, active group gameplay. To improve this further ZOS should implement some much needed quality of life group tool utilities, like an improved group leader crown compass and a minimap where you can see your group members.
4) Removing any form of AP leeching in Cyrodiil as best as possible, since the current reward system leads to players flocking to any objective marked on the map for the reward, resulting in stacks getting larger and larger. AP should be distributed in a way that heavily rewards actually fighting for an objective. If players arrive late to an already about-to-be-capped keep or resource, they should get no AP at all. This could be accomplished via an objective reward tier system. The more enemy players, and to a lesser extend NPC flag guards, you kill, as well as the more in combat low health allies you heal, the higher your reward tier would be. On top of this, the total AP should be somewhat spread among the amount of players that participated. For example, if 12 players cap a resource without any enemy players defending, the individual AP gain should be very low. On the other hand, if a single player defeats all guards and then 11 other players arrive after the flags are already flipping, the single player should get a reasonable amount of AP, while the other players should get none. To balance this out, overall AP gain from objectives should be adjusted accordingly. This change would mostly be intended to change player behaviour. Spreading out to different objectives would be much more rewarding than stomping a single one with a huge faction stack.
So, these would be my ideas. Now I'm curious about your thoughts.
This is all frustrating. IRL I work with all sorts of information technology (IT) from dropping bombs to saving babies IT is IT in reality this game is all numbers. Real world it does not matter what button we are pushing does not matter if our damage is AoE, DoT, or DD it is all boils down to numbers 1’s and 0’s. The more numbers you have granted AoE is larger the faster you want to compute them the more hardware resources you will need. It is reality it is that simple. Unfortunately, ZoS looks like it is going to take the opposite approach if you slow down the rate of numbers you can reduce the required compute resources.
To give a great example of this it would be like Google stating for you to do a lookup you must submit a batch process and wait for a result.
These tests will be successful but for the wrong reasons. A turn-based game will work great too and we can run that on 10-year-old hardware.
2 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭I would get rid of groups altogether in cyrodiil. Look at all the skills that apply buffs yo your group that people arent aware of. This includes sets and class passives. Every class has at least one so every player is actively calculaing at all times while in groups. This will also make organization much harder which will then require more player skill to overcome.
Next they can evaluate problematic skills and designate the worst offendets as group only. This ensures pve is not affected. Perhaps some skills are simply too problematic to use in pvp.
Then a few skills could get "if in a group" functionality and otherwise functionality that is performance friendly so some skills can behave differently based on your group status.
That might be able to greatly reduce passive style calculations without greatly impacting pve while adding something new to the game without necessarily resorting to cooldowns.
Then make normal and vet cyrodiil. Based on your accounts highest rank 0-20 for normal and 21+ for vet though anyone can join vet. This will redistribute the pvp population somewhat and give new players a chance to fight against their peers.
Edited by Rungar on July 28, 2020 10:52PM0 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NeoXanthus wrote: »Hello fellow forum members,
by now we all should have heard about the upcoming AOE tests ZOS is planning to do right now. And while I'm happy that they try to find solutions for the lag, I'm worrying about their approach. Imo, the proposed changes would destroy a lot of playstyles, and at the very least would require rebalancing of a ton of skills, an endeavour that could take a very long time. However, this is not exactly the topic of my thread. Here, I want to present a different, softer approach to the lag.
First of all the big question is what causes the lag? Judging from experience its a combination of:
- dedicated ball groups
- huge faction stacks
- which both generally overload the server capacities because of the amount of calculations that are necessary for them
So, how could we approach this problem differently? I want to show 4 different and somewhat independent approaches, that each could reduce the lag either by changing how the game works or by trying to change player behaviour. Note, that all of these changes could be restricted to PvP only!
1) Introduction of player target caps on all AOE group utility tools and AOE group buffs. Any of the following skills would always apply to yourself, and 3 additional allies. This change would include:
- AOE group utility tools, like purge and rapid maneuver
- AOE active group buffs, like molten weapons and frost cloak
- AOE passive group buffs, like hemorrhage , mountains blessing , illuminate and exploitation passive
- And optionally: defensive AOE ults without a harsh range restriction, like barrier and rite of passage
Note, that these changes would be intended nerfs to ball groups. 12 good PvPers playing together would still dominate, but now individual raid members you would have to put more effort into personal utility tools and buffs themselves.
2) Restricting all of the above plus every smart, multi targeted heal to group members only. This would mean that you can't heal non-group members with smart heals like radiating regeneration anymore, but it would still be possible with targeted heals like living trellis or true AOE heals like grand healing. In light of the above, every single target heal, like rapid regeneration, should be changed from smart heal to player targeted, if that is not already the case. Some additional, reasonable changes would be:
- Radiating regeneration morph: This morph now always heals the caster and up to 3 group members. Reduce the amount it heals by 25% to keep the total healing the same but reduce the power on any single target. This change would make this skill match standard group size
- Twilight matriarch: Change the special ability of this pet to always heal itself, and one additional, player targeted, ally (down from smart healing 2)
- Change any synergy that AOE heals to single target, synergy user heal only (looking at you energy orb). Additionally, they could remove the unlimited synergies per single cast of orbs altogether.
These changes would most likely reduce load on the server, since now only group members would be taken into consideration for smart heals and buffs.
3) Reducing the maximum group size to 12 people. This change, in combination with point 2), would make big faction stacks less desirable, and fights between two opposing stacks would end much faster, since there would be less auto targeted cross healing. There should be more focus on actual, active group gameplay. To improve this further ZOS should implement some much needed quality of life group tool utilities, like an improved group leader crown compass and a minimap where you can see your group members.
4) Removing any form of AP leeching in Cyrodiil as best as possible, since the current reward system leads to players flocking to any objective marked on the map for the reward, resulting in stacks getting larger and larger. AP should be distributed in a way that heavily rewards actually fighting for an objective. If players arrive late to an already about-to-be-capped keep or resource, they should get no AP at all. This could be accomplished via an objective reward tier system. The more enemy players, and to a lesser extend NPC flag guards, you kill, as well as the more in combat low health allies you heal, the higher your reward tier would be. On top of this, the total AP should be somewhat spread among the amount of players that participated. For example, if 12 players cap a resource without any enemy players defending, the individual AP gain should be very low. On the other hand, if a single player defeats all guards and then 11 other players arrive after the flags are already flipping, the single player should get a reasonable amount of AP, while the other players should get none. To balance this out, overall AP gain from objectives should be adjusted accordingly. This change would mostly be intended to change player behaviour. Spreading out to different objectives would be much more rewarding than stomping a single one with a huge faction stack.
So, these would be my ideas. Now I'm curious about your thoughts.
This is all frustrating. IRL I work with all sorts of information technology (IT) from dropping bombs to saving babies IT is IT in reality this game is all numbers. Real world it does not matter what button we are pushing does not matter if our damage is AoE, DoT, or DD it is all boils down to numbers 1’s and 0’s. The more numbers you have granted AoE is larger the faster you want to compute them the more hardware resources you will need. It is reality it is that simple. Unfortunately, ZoS looks like it is going to take the opposite approach if you slow down the rate of numbers you can reduce the required compute resources.
To give a great example of this it would be like Google stating for you to do a lookup you must submit a batch process and wait for a result.
These tests will be successful but for the wrong reasons. A turn-based game will work great too and we can run that on 10-year-old hardware.
you are absolutely correct.1 -
HankTwo✭✭✭✭✭NeoXanthus wrote: »Hello fellow forum members,
by now we all should have heard about the upcoming AOE tests ZOS is planning to do right now. And while I'm happy that they try to find solutions for the lag, I'm worrying about their approach. Imo, the proposed changes would destroy a lot of playstyles, and at the very least would require rebalancing of a ton of skills, an endeavour that could take a very long time. However, this is not exactly the topic of my thread. Here, I want to present a different, softer approach to the lag.
First of all the big question is what causes the lag? Judging from experience its a combination of:
- dedicated ball groups
- huge faction stacks
- which both generally overload the server capacities because of the amount of calculations that are necessary for them
So, how could we approach this problem differently? I want to show 4 different and somewhat independent approaches, that each could reduce the lag either by changing how the game works or by trying to change player behaviour. Note, that all of these changes could be restricted to PvP only!
1) Introduction of player target caps on all AOE group utility tools and AOE group buffs. Any of the following skills would always apply to yourself, and 3 additional allies. This change would include:
- AOE group utility tools, like purge and rapid maneuver
- AOE active group buffs, like molten weapons and frost cloak
- AOE passive group buffs, like hemorrhage , mountains blessing , illuminate and exploitation passive
- And optionally: defensive AOE ults without a harsh range restriction, like barrier and rite of passage
Note, that these changes would be intended nerfs to ball groups. 12 good PvPers playing together would still dominate, but now individual raid members you would have to put more effort into personal utility tools and buffs themselves.
2) Restricting all of the above plus every smart, multi targeted heal to group members only. This would mean that you can't heal non-group members with smart heals like radiating regeneration anymore, but it would still be possible with targeted heals like living trellis or true AOE heals like grand healing. In light of the above, every single target heal, like rapid regeneration, should be changed from smart heal to player targeted, if that is not already the case. Some additional, reasonable changes would be:
- Radiating regeneration morph: This morph now always heals the caster and up to 3 group members. Reduce the amount it heals by 25% to keep the total healing the same but reduce the power on any single target. This change would make this skill match standard group size
- Twilight matriarch: Change the special ability of this pet to always heal itself, and one additional, player targeted, ally (down from smart healing 2)
- Change any synergy that AOE heals to single target, synergy user heal only (looking at you energy orb). Additionally, they could remove the unlimited synergies per single cast of orbs altogether.
These changes would most likely reduce load on the server, since now only group members would be taken into consideration for smart heals and buffs.
3) Reducing the maximum group size to 12 people. This change, in combination with point 2), would make big faction stacks less desirable, and fights between two opposing stacks would end much faster, since there would be less auto targeted cross healing. There should be more focus on actual, active group gameplay. To improve this further ZOS should implement some much needed quality of life group tool utilities, like an improved group leader crown compass and a minimap where you can see your group members.
4) Removing any form of AP leeching in Cyrodiil as best as possible, since the current reward system leads to players flocking to any objective marked on the map for the reward, resulting in stacks getting larger and larger. AP should be distributed in a way that heavily rewards actually fighting for an objective. If players arrive late to an already about-to-be-capped keep or resource, they should get no AP at all. This could be accomplished via an objective reward tier system. The more enemy players, and to a lesser extend NPC flag guards, you kill, as well as the more in combat low health allies you heal, the higher your reward tier would be. On top of this, the total AP should be somewhat spread among the amount of players that participated. For example, if 12 players cap a resource without any enemy players defending, the individual AP gain should be very low. On the other hand, if a single player defeats all guards and then 11 other players arrive after the flags are already flipping, the single player should get a reasonable amount of AP, while the other players should get none. To balance this out, overall AP gain from objectives should be adjusted accordingly. This change would mostly be intended to change player behaviour. Spreading out to different objectives would be much more rewarding than stomping a single one with a huge faction stack.
So, these would be my ideas. Now I'm curious about your thoughts.
This is all frustrating. IRL I work with all sorts of information technology (IT) from dropping bombs to saving babies IT is IT in reality this game is all numbers. Real world it does not matter what button we are pushing does not matter if our damage is AoE, DoT, or DD it is all boils down to numbers 1’s and 0’s. The more numbers you have granted AoE is larger the faster you want to compute them the more hardware resources you will need. It is reality it is that simple. Unfortunately, ZoS looks like it is going to take the opposite approach if you slow down the rate of numbers you can reduce the required compute resources.
To give a great example of this it would be like Google stating for you to do a lookup you must submit a batch process and wait for a result.
These tests will be successful but for the wrong reasons. A turn-based game will work great too and we can run that on 10-year-old hardware.
Honestly, I think that the eso devs would love to get more/better server capacities for us. But I guess financial management tells them no... That being said, yeah, those tests for sure will be a 'success', since a lot of playstyles wont work at all. Furthermore, since the cooldown also applies to critical class heals like honor the dead, some classes will just die when pressured by single target builds with defensive tools that are not affected like most stambaldes for example. Not even talking about how crazy strong cloak will be (only good counter will be detect pots).
However, starting from the premise that management wont allow to invest the money necessary to upgrade the servers, what do you think about my ideas? Also what do you think would be a good course of action for the devs?PC EU
Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK0 -
HankTwo✭✭✭✭✭I would get rid of groups altogether in cyrodiil. Look at all the skills that apply buffs yo your group that people arent aware of. This includes sets and class passives. Every class has at least one so every player is actively calculaing at all times while in groups. This will also make organization much harder which will then require more player skill to overcome.
I dont think removing groups altogether is the way to go, since Cyrodiil is supposed to be for group gameplay. However, these 24 man stacks usually dont involve any real, active group play anyway, so I dont really see the point in them. But yeah, Im sure class passives and sets also add to the lag.Then a few skills could get "if in a group" functionality and otherwise functionality that is performance friendly so some skills can behave differently based on your group status.
A very good example here would be rapid regen. A lot of players would actually prefer to have this skill only target yourself when you are playing without a group. I really think more group restrictions on a lot of skills would be a great way to tackle the lag.PC EU
Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK0 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NeoXanthus wrote: »Hello fellow forum members,
by now we all should have heard about the upcoming AOE tests ZOS is planning to do right now. And while I'm happy that they try to find solutions for the lag, I'm worrying about their approach. Imo, the proposed changes would destroy a lot of playstyles, and at the very least would require rebalancing of a ton of skills, an endeavour that could take a very long time. However, this is not exactly the topic of my thread. Here, I want to present a different, softer approach to the lag.
First of all the big question is what causes the lag? Judging from experience its a combination of:
- dedicated ball groups
- huge faction stacks
- which both generally overload the server capacities because of the amount of calculations that are necessary for them
So, how could we approach this problem differently? I want to show 4 different and somewhat independent approaches, that each could reduce the lag either by changing how the game works or by trying to change player behaviour. Note, that all of these changes could be restricted to PvP only!
1) Introduction of player target caps on all AOE group utility tools and AOE group buffs. Any of the following skills would always apply to yourself, and 3 additional allies. This change would include:
- AOE group utility tools, like purge and rapid maneuver
- AOE active group buffs, like molten weapons and frost cloak
- AOE passive group buffs, like hemorrhage , mountains blessing , illuminate and exploitation passive
- And optionally: defensive AOE ults without a harsh range restriction, like barrier and rite of passage
Note, that these changes would be intended nerfs to ball groups. 12 good PvPers playing together would still dominate, but now individual raid members you would have to put more effort into personal utility tools and buffs themselves.
2) Restricting all of the above plus every smart, multi targeted heal to group members only. This would mean that you can't heal non-group members with smart heals like radiating regeneration anymore, but it would still be possible with targeted heals like living trellis or true AOE heals like grand healing. In light of the above, every single target heal, like rapid regeneration, should be changed from smart heal to player targeted, if that is not already the case. Some additional, reasonable changes would be:
- Radiating regeneration morph: This morph now always heals the caster and up to 3 group members. Reduce the amount it heals by 25% to keep the total healing the same but reduce the power on any single target. This change would make this skill match standard group size
- Twilight matriarch: Change the special ability of this pet to always heal itself, and one additional, player targeted, ally (down from smart healing 2)
- Change any synergy that AOE heals to single target, synergy user heal only (looking at you energy orb). Additionally, they could remove the unlimited synergies per single cast of orbs altogether.
These changes would most likely reduce load on the server, since now only group members would be taken into consideration for smart heals and buffs.
3) Reducing the maximum group size to 12 people. This change, in combination with point 2), would make big faction stacks less desirable, and fights between two opposing stacks would end much faster, since there would be less auto targeted cross healing. There should be more focus on actual, active group gameplay. To improve this further ZOS should implement some much needed quality of life group tool utilities, like an improved group leader crown compass and a minimap where you can see your group members.
4) Removing any form of AP leeching in Cyrodiil as best as possible, since the current reward system leads to players flocking to any objective marked on the map for the reward, resulting in stacks getting larger and larger. AP should be distributed in a way that heavily rewards actually fighting for an objective. If players arrive late to an already about-to-be-capped keep or resource, they should get no AP at all. This could be accomplished via an objective reward tier system. The more enemy players, and to a lesser extend NPC flag guards, you kill, as well as the more in combat low health allies you heal, the higher your reward tier would be. On top of this, the total AP should be somewhat spread among the amount of players that participated. For example, if 12 players cap a resource without any enemy players defending, the individual AP gain should be very low. On the other hand, if a single player defeats all guards and then 11 other players arrive after the flags are already flipping, the single player should get a reasonable amount of AP, while the other players should get none. To balance this out, overall AP gain from objectives should be adjusted accordingly. This change would mostly be intended to change player behaviour. Spreading out to different objectives would be much more rewarding than stomping a single one with a huge faction stack.
So, these would be my ideas. Now I'm curious about your thoughts.
This is all frustrating. IRL I work with all sorts of information technology (IT) from dropping bombs to saving babies IT is IT in reality this game is all numbers. Real world it does not matter what button we are pushing does not matter if our damage is AoE, DoT, or DD it is all boils down to numbers 1’s and 0’s. The more numbers you have granted AoE is larger the faster you want to compute them the more hardware resources you will need. It is reality it is that simple. Unfortunately, ZoS looks like it is going to take the opposite approach if you slow down the rate of numbers you can reduce the required compute resources.
To give a great example of this it would be like Google stating for you to do a lookup you must submit a batch process and wait for a result.
These tests will be successful but for the wrong reasons. A turn-based game will work great too and we can run that on 10-year-old hardware.
Honestly, I think that the eso devs would love to get more/better server capacities for us. But I guess financial management tells them no... That being said, yeah, those tests for sure will be a 'success', since a lot of playstyles wont work at all. Furthermore, since the cooldown also applies to critical class heals like honor the dead, some classes will just die when pressured by single target builds with defensive tools that are not affected like most stambaldes for example. Not even talking about how crazy strong cloak will be (only good counter will be detect pots).
However, starting from the premise that management wont allow to invest the money necessary to upgrade the servers, what do you think about my ideas? Also what do you think would be a good course of action for the devs?
Then I say no to paying and playing ESO. Simple. I won't pay for something I don't enjoy, same as many people... And since I have experience with their management style I will avoid their products in the future. Action reaction, no hard feelings, just simple customer/provider relation.Say no to Toxic Casuals!
I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.
"Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game." - @AlexanderDeLarge0 -
HankTwo✭✭✭✭✭NeoXanthus wrote: »Hello fellow forum members,
by now we all should have heard about the upcoming AOE tests ZOS is planning to do right now. And while I'm happy that they try to find solutions for the lag, I'm worrying about their approach. Imo, the proposed changes would destroy a lot of playstyles, and at the very least would require rebalancing of a ton of skills, an endeavour that could take a very long time. However, this is not exactly the topic of my thread. Here, I want to present a different, softer approach to the lag.
First of all the big question is what causes the lag? Judging from experience its a combination of:
- dedicated ball groups
- huge faction stacks
- which both generally overload the server capacities because of the amount of calculations that are necessary for them
So, how could we approach this problem differently? I want to show 4 different and somewhat independent approaches, that each could reduce the lag either by changing how the game works or by trying to change player behaviour. Note, that all of these changes could be restricted to PvP only!
1) Introduction of player target caps on all AOE group utility tools and AOE group buffs. Any of the following skills would always apply to yourself, and 3 additional allies. This change would include:
- AOE group utility tools, like purge and rapid maneuver
- AOE active group buffs, like molten weapons and frost cloak
- AOE passive group buffs, like hemorrhage , mountains blessing , illuminate and exploitation passive
- And optionally: defensive AOE ults without a harsh range restriction, like barrier and rite of passage
Note, that these changes would be intended nerfs to ball groups. 12 good PvPers playing together would still dominate, but now individual raid members you would have to put more effort into personal utility tools and buffs themselves.
2) Restricting all of the above plus every smart, multi targeted heal to group members only. This would mean that you can't heal non-group members with smart heals like radiating regeneration anymore, but it would still be possible with targeted heals like living trellis or true AOE heals like grand healing. In light of the above, every single target heal, like rapid regeneration, should be changed from smart heal to player targeted, if that is not already the case. Some additional, reasonable changes would be:
- Radiating regeneration morph: This morph now always heals the caster and up to 3 group members. Reduce the amount it heals by 25% to keep the total healing the same but reduce the power on any single target. This change would make this skill match standard group size
- Twilight matriarch: Change the special ability of this pet to always heal itself, and one additional, player targeted, ally (down from smart healing 2)
- Change any synergy that AOE heals to single target, synergy user heal only (looking at you energy orb). Additionally, they could remove the unlimited synergies per single cast of orbs altogether.
These changes would most likely reduce load on the server, since now only group members would be taken into consideration for smart heals and buffs.
3) Reducing the maximum group size to 12 people. This change, in combination with point 2), would make big faction stacks less desirable, and fights between two opposing stacks would end much faster, since there would be less auto targeted cross healing. There should be more focus on actual, active group gameplay. To improve this further ZOS should implement some much needed quality of life group tool utilities, like an improved group leader crown compass and a minimap where you can see your group members.
4) Removing any form of AP leeching in Cyrodiil as best as possible, since the current reward system leads to players flocking to any objective marked on the map for the reward, resulting in stacks getting larger and larger. AP should be distributed in a way that heavily rewards actually fighting for an objective. If players arrive late to an already about-to-be-capped keep or resource, they should get no AP at all. This could be accomplished via an objective reward tier system. The more enemy players, and to a lesser extend NPC flag guards, you kill, as well as the more in combat low health allies you heal, the higher your reward tier would be. On top of this, the total AP should be somewhat spread among the amount of players that participated. For example, if 12 players cap a resource without any enemy players defending, the individual AP gain should be very low. On the other hand, if a single player defeats all guards and then 11 other players arrive after the flags are already flipping, the single player should get a reasonable amount of AP, while the other players should get none. To balance this out, overall AP gain from objectives should be adjusted accordingly. This change would mostly be intended to change player behaviour. Spreading out to different objectives would be much more rewarding than stomping a single one with a huge faction stack.
So, these would be my ideas. Now I'm curious about your thoughts.
This is all frustrating. IRL I work with all sorts of information technology (IT) from dropping bombs to saving babies IT is IT in reality this game is all numbers. Real world it does not matter what button we are pushing does not matter if our damage is AoE, DoT, or DD it is all boils down to numbers 1’s and 0’s. The more numbers you have granted AoE is larger the faster you want to compute them the more hardware resources you will need. It is reality it is that simple. Unfortunately, ZoS looks like it is going to take the opposite approach if you slow down the rate of numbers you can reduce the required compute resources.
To give a great example of this it would be like Google stating for you to do a lookup you must submit a batch process and wait for a result.
These tests will be successful but for the wrong reasons. A turn-based game will work great too and we can run that on 10-year-old hardware.
Honestly, I think that the eso devs would love to get more/better server capacities for us. But I guess financial management tells them no... That being said, yeah, those tests for sure will be a 'success', since a lot of playstyles wont work at all. Furthermore, since the cooldown also applies to critical class heals like honor the dead, some classes will just die when pressured by single target builds with defensive tools that are not affected like most stambaldes for example. Not even talking about how crazy strong cloak will be (only good counter will be detect pots).
However, starting from the premise that management wont allow to invest the money necessary to upgrade the servers, what do you think about my ideas? Also what do you think would be a good course of action for the devs?
Then I say no to paying and playing ESO. Simple. I won't pay for something I don't enjoy, same as many people... And since I have experience with their management style I will avoid their products in the future. Action reaction, no hard feelings, just simple customer/provider relation.
Thats fair and understandable. Depending on how stupid their 'final' solution for the lag will be I will also quit. However, thats not the topic of the thread. Its about what would be the best way to reduce lag with game changes only.PC EU
Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK0 -
Kittytravel✭✭✭✭✭NeoXanthus wrote: »Hello fellow forum members,
by now we all should have heard about the upcoming AOE tests ZOS is planning to do right now. And while I'm happy that they try to find solutions for the lag, I'm worrying about their approach. Imo, the proposed changes would destroy a lot of playstyles, and at the very least would require rebalancing of a ton of skills, an endeavour that could take a very long time. However, this is not exactly the topic of my thread. Here, I want to present a different, softer approach to the lag.
First of all the big question is what causes the lag? Judging from experience its a combination of:
- dedicated ball groups
- huge faction stacks
- which both generally overload the server capacities because of the amount of calculations that are necessary for them
So, how could we approach this problem differently? I want to show 4 different and somewhat independent approaches, that each could reduce the lag either by changing how the game works or by trying to change player behaviour. Note, that all of these changes could be restricted to PvP only!
1) Introduction of player target caps on all AOE group utility tools and AOE group buffs. Any of the following skills would always apply to yourself, and 3 additional allies. This change would include:
- AOE group utility tools, like purge and rapid maneuver
- AOE active group buffs, like molten weapons and frost cloak
- AOE passive group buffs, like hemorrhage , mountains blessing , illuminate and exploitation passive
- And optionally: defensive AOE ults without a harsh range restriction, like barrier and rite of passage
Note, that these changes would be intended nerfs to ball groups. 12 good PvPers playing together would still dominate, but now individual raid members you would have to put more effort into personal utility tools and buffs themselves.
2) Restricting all of the above plus every smart, multi targeted heal to group members only. This would mean that you can't heal non-group members with smart heals like radiating regeneration anymore, but it would still be possible with targeted heals like living trellis or true AOE heals like grand healing. In light of the above, every single target heal, like rapid regeneration, should be changed from smart heal to player targeted, if that is not already the case. Some additional, reasonable changes would be:
- Radiating regeneration morph: This morph now always heals the caster and up to 3 group members. Reduce the amount it heals by 25% to keep the total healing the same but reduce the power on any single target. This change would make this skill match standard group size
- Twilight matriarch: Change the special ability of this pet to always heal itself, and one additional, player targeted, ally (down from smart healing 2)
- Change any synergy that AOE heals to single target, synergy user heal only (looking at you energy orb). Additionally, they could remove the unlimited synergies per single cast of orbs altogether.
These changes would most likely reduce load on the server, since now only group members would be taken into consideration for smart heals and buffs.
3) Reducing the maximum group size to 12 people. This change, in combination with point 2), would make big faction stacks less desirable, and fights between two opposing stacks would end much faster, since there would be less auto targeted cross healing. There should be more focus on actual, active group gameplay. To improve this further ZOS should implement some much needed quality of life group tool utilities, like an improved group leader crown compass and a minimap where you can see your group members.
4) Removing any form of AP leeching in Cyrodiil as best as possible, since the current reward system leads to players flocking to any objective marked on the map for the reward, resulting in stacks getting larger and larger. AP should be distributed in a way that heavily rewards actually fighting for an objective. If players arrive late to an already about-to-be-capped keep or resource, they should get no AP at all. This could be accomplished via an objective reward tier system. The more enemy players, and to a lesser extend NPC flag guards, you kill, as well as the more in combat low health allies you heal, the higher your reward tier would be. On top of this, the total AP should be somewhat spread among the amount of players that participated. For example, if 12 players cap a resource without any enemy players defending, the individual AP gain should be very low. On the other hand, if a single player defeats all guards and then 11 other players arrive after the flags are already flipping, the single player should get a reasonable amount of AP, while the other players should get none. To balance this out, overall AP gain from objectives should be adjusted accordingly. This change would mostly be intended to change player behaviour. Spreading out to different objectives would be much more rewarding than stomping a single one with a huge faction stack.
So, these would be my ideas. Now I'm curious about your thoughts.
This is all frustrating. IRL I work with all sorts of information technology (IT) from dropping bombs to saving babies IT is IT in reality this game is all numbers. Real world it does not matter what button we are pushing does not matter if our damage is AoE, DoT, or DD it is all boils down to numbers 1’s and 0’s. The more numbers you have granted AoE is larger the faster you want to compute them the more hardware resources you will need. It is reality it is that simple. Unfortunately, ZoS looks like it is going to take the opposite approach if you slow down the rate of numbers you can reduce the required compute resources.
To give a great example of this it would be like Google stating for you to do a lookup you must submit a batch process and wait for a result.
These tests will be successful but for the wrong reasons. A turn-based game will work great too and we can run that on 10-year-old hardware.
Honestly, I think that the eso devs would love to get more/better server capacities for us. But I guess financial management tells them no... That being said, yeah, those tests for sure will be a 'success', since a lot of playstyles wont work at all. Furthermore, since the cooldown also applies to critical class heals like honor the dead, some classes will just die when pressured by single target builds with defensive tools that are not affected like most stambaldes for example. Not even talking about how crazy strong cloak will be (only good counter will be detect pots).
However, starting from the premise that management wont allow to invest the money necessary to upgrade the servers, what do you think about my ideas? Also what do you think would be a good course of action for the devs?
Then I say no to paying and playing ESO. Simple. I won't pay for something I don't enjoy, same as many people... And since I have experience with their management style I will avoid their products in the future. Action reaction, no hard feelings, just simple customer/provider relation.
Thats fair and understandable. Depending on how stupid their 'final' solution for the lag will be I will also quit. However, thats not the topic of the thread. Its about what would be the best way to reduce lag with game changes only.
My immediate first reaction would be to do away with CP at all in any PvP scenario. Remove an entire set of calculations from that alone from all those several hundred people playing in Cyrodiil. The second reaction would be to make it so while in PvP zones abilities that auto-target friendly players only target players in your group, end of story. You aren't grouped? No one is getting your auto-target heals then. Things like Combat Prayer can function but having two groups running around and spam casting regen onto random people they aren't grouped with would obviously add strain to it.
Both of those changes seem healthier than adding any sort of cooldowns to a free-form combat style.0