...and then, of course, you have the people (in Vets) who are obsessed with speedruns.

They won't want anything that slows them down, even slightly.

So, even if the group as a whole has a reasonable average CP level and performance, they still won't want you if you don't, yet.

Fortunately, most people aren't like that, though.

Astrid wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Astrid wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Another thing that gets me:

As a tank, we are expected to wear Alkosh - a non tank set, because it applies resistance debuffs to the mobs.

But, we are looked down upon for wearing Dragon's Defilement - an actual tanking set, that gives the same debuffs........

Welcome to the world of supports in trials. Healers wear Martial Knowledge, Z’ens (those two often paired together whilst maintaining a healing rota and meeting proc requirements for both) and Roaring Opportunist for example. Tanks run Alkosh, Powerful Assault, Worm cult in some cases. Thing is with supports in trials - you’re not there to be an undying meat shield as a tank and you’re not there to heal everyone into oblivion even if they’re at 100% with 8 seperate healing skills as a healer. You’re there to be a buff to the group and whatever they need at the time so DPS aren’t forced into sets that stray from the most damage output. Selfish builds aren’t really any use in 12 man content as you’re the only one benefitting from it. Sadly that’s the outlook but I must admit adjusting to these sets and circumstances you’re put into just improves you as a player. It’s challenging and fun.

No, its not fun.

I find no enjoyment from being a cookie cutter copy paste build that everyone else runs with 0 aspects of personalization.

As I've said earlier in this thread, if that's the case the ZOS should just remove classes and builds altogether and just have everyone select "tank", "stam dps", "mag dps", and "healer" characters that come pre-equipped and pre-loaded with all the singular skills and sets that those roles wear.

As it is, the game offers much choice for variety, and I will continue to personalize and individualize my builds

You talk about selfish builds, but everything you just said is all about dps running selfish builds.

And that's really what this is all about. DPS want to all wear selfish builds, have 0 utility what so ever, and just treat trials as live action parses. So they force us tanks and healers to wear all the sets and use all the slotted abilities that they don't want to, but then they want to whine and cry and wonder why there are no tanks or healers in the game to group up with.

I can tell you this: I never have and never will run with any of those tank sets you listed, and nobody in my guilds run those tank or healer sets. Yet, we still routinely clear content, and including vet.

DPS continue to dictate to us how we play our own characters, all while telling us that we aren't needed ("you don't even need a tank and healer in dungeons, you can just clear it with 4 dps"), but still routinely blame us first when things go wrong, and then whine that there's none left to group with for group content.

I can't tell you how many times I have been with a dps that thinks he's a badass because he can parse 90k dps, but is *always* the first one dead in a boss fight and holds the group back from proceeding because they have no actual utility or survivability because they want to pass that off on tanks and healers for their own selfish builds.

You say it's "challenging and fun", but tbh, when the time comes that I'm done with this game, right at the top of the list is going to be dictated to by others how to build my own characters.

Oh no I’m not telling you how to build your characters or how to play. By all means you can run whatever makes you happy and such.. I’m just explaining that properly organised end-game raid teams run such things. I’m GH/TTT/IR and it’s how you squeeze the most damage for those time-pushes that you need for the titles and scores. Any trial you can sit in for hours upon hours wiping and not meeting DPS checks and it not matter from Craglorns all the way to vCR+3 but you’re not necessarily learning anything.. For example vCR+3 no death and speed is less than 15 minutes, that’s Z’maja and three mini bosses (two if you skip Galanwe) Your dds need all the buffs and help they can get if you’re progging that for the first time. The goal is to blitz through the content comfortably and smoothly with good damage and supports who are.. well yknow.. supportive. The last thing i’d want as a healer is to be told to “just heal”. It’s so dull even in the hardest of content. The fun comes from being diverse and open and accepting the challenges these sets and abilities bring. Its surprising as to how much swapping about supports have to do. There is no one size fits all in vet trials for us supports, we all are given our sets to run by our raid lead for specific purposes. Yes main tank probably will have the most boring role and is usually slapped in Yolna/Alkosh but your play style will change with the trial. You’ll be asked to switch class on tank even, as sorc and even nightblade are more suited than regular DK and it depends if you’re main or off. I have one of each healer just for whatever my team needs.

You say DPS are selfish and supports can’t be. You’re missing one key thing: “Support”. You don’t spend hours on a dummy perfecting your rotation, getting everything as min/max as possible to get the most damage output for your group.. Probably going through thousands of spell/weapon pots to hit those numbers to get into those teams in the first place. Provided you have the sets and the knowledge and good buff uptime, us supports are under far less scrutiny than our damage dealers until it comes down to the crunch. If damage is suffering and all of those dds are proven to be hitting the numbers - they look at the support classes to see who isn’t pulling their weight. And if you’re stood in selfish sets bringing nothing/unneeded sets into the group it’s going to be you i’m afraid.

If you wanna play anti meta, fine. Excellent for you but in all honesty the way raid teams work when actually pushing content i’m afraid it won’t work out so well there. Casual, sure by all means.

Again, you're using examples that don't apply to me. I'm not a score pusher, and never will be. The times that I have run with power gamer groups has been absolutely torturous and exhausting, with no fun to be had. Usually run by a bunch of selfish dps that have 0 utility, can't keep themselves alive, drain resources from the healers, and hold back the group all because all they want to do is parse, and typically led by a trial leader who holds the group to standards that he doesn't hold himself to, constantly makes mistakes that wipe the group, and then passes the blame off on everyone else.

I have 0 desire to ever push leaderboards and speed runs. Even in the best case optimal scenario, that playstyle does not sound even the least bit appealing to me, and I want nothing to do with it.

And I dont even know what you mean when you say GH / TTT / IR.

So your reply basically proves the point that I have been trying to say, which is, meta is *only* necessary for those things: leaderboards, speedruns, achievements, etc.

But if you just want to play and clear content with no concern for a scoreboard, then meta is 100% *unnecessary*, including for vet dlc dungeons and trials.

The fact that I've cleared vet content with an off meta build, rolling with an off meta guild, is all the testament to that I need.

My experience with this game has shown me that meta builds are 100% wholly unnecessary.

What *is* necessary is an intentionally designed build, so I agree, tanking in light armor with bow / bow is not going to get the job done.

The problem with these build guides, or other players pushing the meta, is that they are speaking from that perspective of power gaming for leaderboards and such. Those of us that aren't concerned with that then get wrapped up in the expectation of being built up for that, and so the leaderboard pusher expectations end up getting passed off on the rest of us. It took me awhile before I realized that those build guides and power gamer set ups didn't apply to me, because that's not what I'm trying to push.

So the topic of this thread is "how is it really for off-meta end game builds", and really that question has to be answered with another question, which is "what is your goal?"

Unfortunately, the build guides and advice from power gamers does not take into consideration that players have different objectives for the game, and the advice gets passed off as *all encompassing* end game advice, when that advice is only applicable to power gaming.

Because the truth is, you don't have to be fully min / maxed to *clear* any end game content of any level. You don't need 60k, 70k, 90k dps. You don't need maximum trial buff sets from tanks and healers. You don't need to match up the proper race with the proper roles, or limit how many stam builds you have in your group, or limit your healers to only Templars and Wardens. I have cleared vet DLC level content with a Wood Elf tank wearing Combat Physician grouped up with a DPS wearing tank sets. I have cleared vet trials with a Breton tank wearing Leeching and Grave Guardian grouped up with PVP builds wearing all impen gear. I've cleared vet scalecaller with a stam DPS that tops out at 15k dps.

I have held back my group plenty of times, but never because of my build. Anytime I have been the problem, it can always be traced 100% back to not knowing the mechanics. Once I know the mechanics and how to execute them, the build at that point becomes wholly less important. The closest that I've ever come to holding my group back due to my build was when I first hit CP levels, and had my CP's wrongly distributed because I didn't understand the CP's and put my points in the wrong places for what I wanted. Once I got that sorted out, it's been a whole different ball game.

The meta matters if you want leaderboards. If you don't, then it doesn't.

There are 1.9 million different gear combinations in this game. And 3% of a vocal minority telling you that there are less than 50 ways to wear sets? ....

ERROR

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Algorax wrote: »

Copypaste builds are antithetical to this game's essence and those who rely on them should be mocked by friends and foes alike.

But if i was prone to easy, uncorrect judgements i would now tell you to obscure sites like Alcast's, but truth is that siteslike that one and its builds are... like drugs: the real problem dwells in those who uses them, in their shallowness.

I use Alcast as a base for starting my toons when I’ve wanted to learn a new class or role and I still use it as a reference sometimes because it’s organized and intuitive. I’ve also used Dottz often because he has a different take on a similar build. I’ve been known to mash the two together as well. Lately I’ve been gravitating more towards HTM because the builds are way easier to use though they take longer to flesh out because you’ll chase skills further down the skill lines or in the case of magicka builds you’ll need the later mages/psijic skills and those take extra time to unlock. I’ve built my MagDK off Liko where there are several options to search and find builds that work for you, some meta and some off meta. I still twist and tweak them all to make it my own but there is no denying the power some of these meta builds have provided you understand how to use them. For the most part though I stick to tried and true formulas instead of chasing the flavour of the month. Swap a skill here or equipment set there and you’ll be in the ballpark most of the time anyway. I’m the end it still comes down to managing you rss and skill bars anyway. If you can’t sustain or stay off the floor nothing else really matters.

I can agree with this. I do believe there is a place for Alcast / Dottz / HTM / Nefas / Xynode, etc even for non-meta players. I used those guides so I can learn what responsibilities are expected of the tank role, so that I can be a proper support to my group. I've gotten a lot of helpful information from those guides, and hell, even some of my builds even are similar in some regards. I.E. the basis of my Warden tank is rather similar to a Xynode Warden tank concept (tho there are some changes, most notably in the sets, as his build uses Leeching and Plague Doctor, and mine uses Imperium and Combat Physician - meaning I'm actually offering more group utility than a "meta" guide)

The funny thing is, all this talk about group support, and yet, my builds actually are built for group support, but I'm called a "selfish tank" simply because said group support isn't Alkosh / Galenwe. *And yes, as a divergent, I have literally been told by people - typically the power gamers - that I need to go farm Galenwe to use it on my tank*

But first of all, the term "selfish tank" is problematic in its own right. By virtue of the role, tanks cannot be selfish. Tanks are taking on all the aggro and all the damage so that the DPS can parse uninterrupted. We do all the bashes and interrupts, take all the aggro off of you, and put our own health bars on the line for the rest of the group, all while being told that buffing our health bars, resistances, and mitigations are "selfish", so I don't care if a tank is only using Leeching and Plague Doctor, he is automatically *NOT* a "selfish" tank simply by virtue of being a tank. Selfish tanks literally do not exist in the game. It is literally impossible for a selfish tank to exist within the design of the game. The closest thing to a "selfish tank" is the DPS that goes into the dungeon or the trial as a "fake tank" because "a tank isn't needed, we need the extra DPS output for a faster clear". By definition, the only selfish players in the game are dps. They are the only role in the game that is all about maxing out their own output, taking from the rest of the group, and offering nothing back. "Selfish tank" is simply a term coined by DPS who want tanks and healers to cater to them so they can do live action parses without actually having to offer anything back to the group themselves.

But secondly, the term "selfish tank" gets thrown around way too loosely, because it basically applies to any tank that doesn't wear damage buff sets. But, in my experiences with power gaming groups, the problem isn't the fact that dps can't parse high enough dps, it's that they are constantly dead, so their dps output is 0. As a tank, I am contributing more to the group by offering survival buffs to my party through sets like Brands Of Imperium, Lord Warden, Grave Guardian, or Ebon Armory, (or in the unique case of my Warden tank build, Combat Physician) than I am through sets like Alkosh and Yolnakhriin. You know that philosophy that says a tank can be "too" tanky by investing too heavily in health that is unneccesary? Well the same can be said for resistance debuffs. Tanks are already debuffing. We are already giving you at the very least Major Breach & Major Fracture (in AOE form in the case of my Necro tank), very often also giving Minor Breach & Minor Fracture, and also frequently giving additional damage debuffs like Minor Vulnerability (Major, in the case of my Necro tank), additional resource pools and critical output with War Horn, etc. DPS don't need more resistance debuffs with Alkosh. You all are already getting more than enough of those. But you have no survivability. You all are dropping in a one shot if a trash mob so much as even sneezes in your direction, which means that not only are you doing 0 DPS, but the other DPS is also now doing 0 DPS because they have to stop and rez you, which means that your focus on maximum dps output at the expense of self utility and survivability is a detriment to the team, NOT a help. So actually, I *am* offering group utility and support by aiding your survivability with damage shields, additional resistances, health bar buffs, etc.

Out of my 2 tanks, only 1 of my 6 sets (armor, weapons / jewelry, monster) is "selfish", and that is the Leeching that I wear on my Necro tank for a number of reasons, both efficiency and RP concept alike. Everything else I wear (or the additional sets that I also have in rotation that aren't part of the main builds) all offer group support: Grave Guardian, Lord Warden on my necro tank (with Akaviri Dragonguard as a rotation set), and Brands Of Imperium, Combat Physician (or Ebon Armory), with a rotation of Thurvokun, Sellestrix, or Chokethorn on my Warden tank. I do have Yolnakhriin and Galenwe sets in my storage if I need them, but I never rotate them in because DPS output is never the problem - survivability is.

So no, not only do "selfish tanks" NOT exist in this game, as they cannot exist in this game, but my builds don't even fit the guidelines of "selfish tank" anyways, because my builds are still all about supporting my group. But those meta damage buffing sets aren't a help when the DPS have no survivability to begin with.

I'd much rather group with a 30k - 40k dps that has some survivability than group with a 70k - 90k dps that dies when the wind shifts. In the long run, the 30k - 40k dps will be doing more damage and contributing more to the group than the 90k dps.

And when I start seeing dps willing to drop their parse for a little bit of self utility and survivability, then at that point I'll be more inclined to help them out with some damage buffing sets to help out with what they are giving up.

But until that time, I'm going to focus on 1. my survivability and 2. my group's survivability before I focus on buffing damage output.

Varana wrote: »

Now that is quite obvious nonsense.

Absolute nonsense

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Algorax wrote: »

Copypaste builds are antithetical to this game's essence and those who rely on them should be mocked by friends and foes alike.

But if i was prone to easy, uncorrect judgements i would now tell you to obscure sites like Alcast's, but truth is that siteslike that one and its builds are... like drugs: the real problem dwells in those who uses them, in their shallowness.

I use Alcast as a base for starting my toons when I’ve wanted to learn a new class or role and I still use it as a reference sometimes because it’s organized and intuitive. I’ve also used Dottz often because he has a different take on a similar build. I’ve been known to mash the two together as well. Lately I’ve been gravitating more towards HTM because the builds are way easier to use though they take longer to flesh out because you’ll chase skills further down the skill lines or in the case of magicka builds you’ll need the later mages/psijic skills and those take extra time to unlock. I’ve built my MagDK off Liko where there are several options to search and find builds that work for you, some meta and some off meta. I still twist and tweak them all to make it my own but there is no denying the power some of these meta builds have provided you understand how to use them. For the most part though I stick to tried and true formulas instead of chasing the flavour of the month. Swap a skill here or equipment set there and you’ll be in the ballpark most of the time anyway. I’m the end it still comes down to managing you rss and skill bars anyway. If you can’t sustain or stay off the floor nothing else really matters.

I can agree with this. I do believe there is a place for Alcast / Dottz / HTM / Nefas / Xynode, etc even for non-meta players. I used those guides so I can learn what responsibilities are expected of the tank role, so that I can be a proper support to my group. I've gotten a lot of helpful information from those guides, and hell, even some of my builds even are similar in some regards. I.E. the basis of my Warden tank is rather similar to a Xynode Warden tank concept (tho there are some changes, most notably in the sets, as his build uses Leeching and Plague Doctor, and mine uses Imperium and Combat Physician - meaning I'm actually offering more group utility than a "meta" guide)

The funny thing is, all this talk about group support, and yet, my builds actually are built for group support, but I'm called a "selfish tank" simply because said group support isn't Alkosh / Galenwe. *And yes, as a divergent, I have literally been told by people - typically the power gamers - that I need to go farm Galenwe to use it on my tank*

But first of all, the term "selfish tank" is problematic in its own right. By virtue of the role, tanks cannot be selfish. Tanks are taking on all the aggro and all the damage so that the DPS can parse uninterrupted. We do all the bashes and interrupts, take all the aggro off of you, and put our own health bars on the line for the rest of the group, all while being told that buffing our health bars, resistances, and mitigations are "selfish", so I don't care if a tank is only using Leeching and Plague Doctor, he is automatically *NOT* a "selfish" tank simply by virtue of being a tank. Selfish tanks literally do not exist in the game. It is literally impossible for a selfish tank to exist within the design of the game. The closest thing to a "selfish tank" is the DPS that goes into the dungeon or the trial as a "fake tank" because "a tank isn't needed, we need the extra DPS output for a faster clear". By definition, the only selfish players in the game are dps. They are the only role in the game that is all about maxing out their own output, taking from the rest of the group, and offering nothing back. "Selfish tank" is simply a term coined by DPS who want tanks and healers to cater to them so they can do live action parses without actually having to offer anything back to the group themselves.

But secondly, the term "selfish tank" gets thrown around way too loosely, because it basically applies to any tank that doesn't wear damage buff sets. But, in my experiences with power gaming groups, the problem isn't the fact that dps can't parse high enough dps, it's that they are constantly dead, so their dps output is 0. As a tank, I am contributing more to the group by offering survival buffs to my party through sets like Brands Of Imperium, Lord Warden, Grave Guardian, or Ebon Armory, (or in the unique case of my Warden tank build, Combat Physician) than I am through sets like Alkosh and Yolnakhriin. You know that philosophy that says a tank can be "too" tanky by investing too heavily in health that is unneccesary? Well the same can be said for resistance debuffs. Tanks are already debuffing. We are already giving you at the very least Major Breach & Major Fracture (in AOE form in the case of my Necro tank), very often also giving Minor Breach & Minor Fracture, and also frequently giving additional damage debuffs like Minor Vulnerability (Major, in the case of my Necro tank), additional resource pools and critical output with War Horn, etc. DPS don't need more resistance debuffs with Alkosh. You all are already getting more than enough of those. But you have no survivability. You all are dropping in a one shot if a trash mob so much as even sneezes in your direction, which means that not only are you doing 0 DPS, but the other DPS is also now doing 0 DPS because they have to stop and rez you, which means that your focus on maximum dps output at the expense of self utility and survivability is a detriment to the team, NOT a help. So actually, I *am* offering group utility and support by aiding your survivability with damage shields, additional resistances, health bar buffs, etc.

Out of my 2 tanks, only 1 of my 6 sets (armor, weapons / jewelry, monster) is "selfish", and that is the Leeching that I wear on my Necro tank for a number of reasons, both efficiency and RP concept alike. Everything else I wear (or the additional sets that I also have in rotation that aren't part of the main builds) all offer group support: Grave Guardian, Lord Warden on my necro tank (with Akaviri Dragonguard as a rotation set), and Brands Of Imperium, Combat Physician (or Ebon Armory), with a rotation of Thurvokun, Sellestrix, or Chokethorn on my Warden tank. I do have Yolnakhriin and Galenwe sets in my storage if I need them, but I never rotate them in because DPS output is never the problem - survivability is.

So no, not only do "selfish tanks" NOT exist in this game, as they cannot exist in this game, but my builds don't even fit the guidelines of "selfish tank" anyways, because my builds are still all about supporting my group. But those meta damage buffing sets aren't a help when the DPS have no survivability to begin with.

I'd much rather group with a 30k - 40k dps that has some survivability than group with a 70k - 90k dps that dies when the wind shifts. In the long run, the 30k - 40k dps will be doing more damage and contributing more to the group than the 90k dps.

And when I start seeing dps willing to drop their parse for a little bit of self utility and survivability, then at that point I'll be more inclined to help them out with some damage buffing sets to help out with what they are giving up.

But until that time, I'm going to focus on 1. my survivability and 2. my group's survivability before I focus on buffing damage output.

Yep. Run away from those types. Enjoy the game.

"Die when the wind blows" lol. You are so right.

Eliran wrote: »

Non meta builds are no builds.

For example, you cant be a Stamina NB without Lok/Relequen combo, you will simply do 50% less damage and then people think you suck.

You know, I would rather take that guy instead of the other guy in meta gear that spams chat when he dies because he ran ahead of the tank and tried to show of his DPS in Vet Moongrave Fane. Most of the people running meta builds don't even have the skill to run them without being carried in PvE and PvP by healers and/or tanks. That said, I rather someone with skill then someone wearing a meta set every time.

How much DPS is a DPS doing when they are dead on the ground and crying because they failed to do DPS and have to actually use the mechanics instead of skipping them? Play a tank in dungeon finder and you will find out the answer to that question real fast.