How is it really, for the non-meta builds at end game?

Twilanthe · May 2020

I hear a lot on both sides, if I go googling enough I get responses from it doesn't matter to it 100% does and everywhere in between.

But how is it really? If I want to make a Nord Dragonknight Healer, or a Bosmer Nightblade Tank, am I excluding myself from higher end game content? Will I get vote kicked out of vet dungeons the second I set foot in one? What would be my glass ceiling? Vet dungeons? Normal trials?

Do people have any luck theory-crafting their own builds, or does everyone at the higher end have cookie cutter builds?

Pajor · May 2020

Nothing wrong with a bosmer nightblade tank. You can do end game content with whatever you choose, just not with players who want to be absolutely perfect.

Fur_like_snow · May 2020

Every question you just asked should be directed towards your guild leader. You’re prob not gonna find a consensus on the forums about a divisive topic like that. Find a guild and ask some question.

Radiance · May 2020

Most are cookie cutter and that is bc some sets are just undeniably better than others and down right diabolical when paired together. It's usually the newest content that has the best sets so it's not really that unpredictable.

As far as Race goes, I don't think most people care all that much, you may get some funny looks if you spin an uncommon combination but as long as you can perform, you'll be fine. Only if you're pushing End Game Achievements running with an elite guild will that matter.

Nirntrotter · May 2020

Vet dungeons shouldn't be a big deal, vet trials is where you'll feel an off-meta build dragging you down.

FrancisCrawford · May 2020

I haven't done anything harder on a highly non-meta healer than nICP, but that went fine on an Imperial DK who was a bit short on skill points.

zvavi · May 2020

1. Veterant dungeons are not end game.
2. People in vet dungeons are usually blind to such things. Heck, I am lucky if from those that don't know mechanics if they even look at the chat, and notice wtf is going on around them.
3. Bad race choices =/= the only non-meta
4. As previous comments says, as long as you pull your weight, who the f*** cares.

Sergykid · May 2020

aside from score runs, nowhere your race or class counts.

newtinmpls · May 2020

To some extent this question is hard to ask without giving more specifics.

Like... I'm starting to level a Breton Necromancer, and wondering IF longer term/advanced content, could she do well as a Magicka Tank.

Haven't really looked at builds for that yet.

So can you give an example of what you are thinking?

Chelo · May 2020

Twilanthe wrote: »

I hear a lot on both sides, if I go googling enough I get responses from it doesn't matter to it 100% does and everywhere in between.

But how is it really? If I want to make a Nord Dragonknight Healer, or a Bosmer Nightblade Tank, am I excluding myself from higher end game content? Will I get vote kicked out of vet dungeons the second I set foot in one? What would be my glass ceiling? Vet dungeons? Normal trials?

Do people have any luck theory-crafting their own builds, or does everyone at the higher end have cookie cutter builds?

If you are trying to go with a random team, they are not going to invite you in the first place (if you don't have the requirements).

If you are going with your friends or guild. Do whatever they let you do... It will be your problem and theirs...

max_only · May 2020

If you find the right people, you can do whatever build.

If you are trying to avoid getting kicked from pugs (pug trials and pug vet dlc dungeons have the itchiest kicking finger), either follow the all-seeing, all-dancing, all-knowing eye of Alcast (meta and parses be upon him) or become so good you have achieved CHIM and no pug can tell you nothing. One misstep, even if it’s not your fault, will most likely be blamed on your non-meta build.

That said, I used to tank vets with a Bosmer Nightblade saptank with and without pugs.
I feel like tanks and healers are more forgiven for “weird combinations” as long as no one dies.

Nirntrotter · May 2020

To piggyback off of what the others said, an addendum - by far the biggest factor will be whether your mates are willing to build according to whatever you want to play. It's not that stuff like DK healers are complete trash, but the whole group needs to synergise as much as possible.

the1andonlyskwex · May 2020

I once got kicked from a group right before the final boss when the tank realized I was a dragonknight and declared that anyone other than a templar couldn't be a healer and convinced the others to vote kick me.

And this was a group where we were steamrolling normal darkshade caverns 1 and nobody in the entire run had dropped below 90% health.

Afterward, the tank even sent me a hate message about how anyone healing with anything other than a templar was ruining the game for everyone else.

Aside from that kind of prejudice, you can definitely get through any (normal or vet) dungeon content healing on any class, although it certainly is easier with some builds than others.

I can't really comment on trials, but the same is probably true there, although you might need multiple roles running non-meta classes to make sure you have all of the necessary buffs/debuffs covered.

Vaoh · May 2020

While you might not choose the technical “best” build in terms of class/race, as long as your gear/abilities are correct you can complete anything. Your group will need to build around your class choice.

Realistically though......
In dungeons this stuff doesn’t matter.

In Trials, in particular progression groups for Vet trails, more often than not you won’t have that luxury. Your biggest challenge will be to find a group willing to accept you using a non-meta class without wanting to drop you as soon as a player with the “correct class” shows up. I see this happen all the time and it’s a pretty toxic environment unless you are lucky enough to find a spot on a chill raid team.

Ahtu · May 2020

Twilanthe wrote: »

I hear a lot on both sides, if I go googling enough I get responses from it doesn't matter to it 100% does and everywhere in between.

But how is it really? If I want to make a Nord Dragonknight Healer, or a Bosmer Nightblade Tank, am I excluding myself from higher end game content? Will I get vote kicked out of vet dungeons the second I set foot in one? What would be my glass ceiling? Vet dungeons? Normal trials?

Do people have any luck theory-crafting their own builds, or does everyone at the higher end have cookie cutter builds?

Coming from a bow stamina healer, I will not tell you that it is an easy road to play an off-meta style. People will judge you and you will be kicked from your fair share of random groups who do not understand, are narrow-minded, and do not want to give you a chance. That being said, it is the most rewarding thing about this game and each patch you can tweak your build to make it even stronger.

It is a difficult road, but there is no limit to what you can accomplish, especially in PvP. I would encourage you to follow what interests you and do not waver no matter how much criticism you face. Copying a cookie cutter build from Alcast will work great, but it takes away from learning about the game and finding your own style.

You might have to lead your own groups because then nobody can question your build, though.

Czekoludek · May 2020

For dd if you can stay alive and meet the group requirements (for example do 80k+ DPS on trial dummy on mag char) nobody will tell you crap. It is little harder on not optimized race or class but doable.
For healer or tank, situation looks a little different. Race don't matter much but class have huge impact. For new group there is a low chance that they will accept templar tank unless you already prove to the group that you are good and you have different tanks too. Some classes are just bad at some roles. You need to be great to perform good on them

CompM4s · May 2020

Just remember that end game pve has some of the most toxic people that will blame your build if they die.

Czekoludek · May 2020

CompM4s wrote: »

Just remember that end game pve has some of the most toxic people that will blame your build if they die.

Wow, that is pretty toxic way to encourage someone to try PvE in this game

Vaoh · May 2020

CompM4s wrote: »

Just remember that end game pve has some of the most toxic people that will blame your build if they die.

^^

Especially if you are on console where add-ons can’t help you prove that you weren’t at fault. When the raid goes bad, the first thing to stand out is the guy who isn’t on the optimal class/race/etc.

barney2525 · May 2020

there's an end game ?

Glurin · May 2020

Czekoludek wrote: »

CompM4s wrote: »

Just remember that end game pve has some of the most toxic people that will blame your build if they die.

Wow, that is pretty toxic way to encourage someone to try PvE in this game

It's true though. Those people are out there and they infest almost every level of PvE. And the infection gets worse as you get closer to endgame. Ironically, they rank quite highly among some of the worst players I've ever seen. They're happy (or quiet at any rate) as long as everyone toes the line and goes along with DPS bulldozing their way through everything. But just one mistake or irregularity or non-meta element and their true skill is laid bare, and it ain't pretty.

Iskiab · May 2020

A bosmer NB tank isn’t too bad, but a Nord DK healer? That will be rough.

Everest_Lionheart · May 2020

It’s threads like this that make me second guess always. My main is a Khajiit stamwarden. The race and class are not the best at anything but a solid 2/3 across the board with proper equipment and skills. It will never be the best DPS, healer or tank but it’s versatile enough to switch roles and switch skills on the fly to make up for deficiencies. I can give those extra buffs or the extra shields and heals to pull through a fight. I can even self heal all day with a quick gear switch and stand there taking a pounding while pulling OK numbers. It’s a real jack of all trades, master of none type. But versatility is not the name of the game here. Have yet to be kicked for it but I don’t think I will ever take it to trials because I’m afraid of being prejudged and either kicked or blamed because I am off meta. It’s an a half Alcaire half Dottz build by the way merging what I see the best of both except for the race where I compromised.

So I started a second build, Altmer magplar. A hack the Minotaur build. It’s basically easy mode still comes down to gear though but more powerful DPS progression so far. Just started leveling the build but it’s definitely a Much simpler rotation and a lot closer to the meta. It’s actually not that far off from the alcast build some difference in skill morphs and gear but the sets all have similar buffs/procs. Running this character I will get less funny looks when entering groups for sure. It’s not quite as versatile as the warden class I find but I’ve only been playing it a couple days.

At the end of the day so long as you are good at your role it’s shouldn’t be an issue but if something feels off you might be the first one blamed if your build cuts against the grain. It’s been my own personal experience. So do what you need to do to have fun because honestly that counts more than endgame anyway.

Narvuntien · May 2020

There is a lot of skill in this game rather than straight numbers and passives or what not that determine your effectiveness.

So I am all about hitting dps thresholds and hp stats or whatever you need to suceed rather than having the right combination of race and class and role.

If you know what you are doing you can play all the content in the game with a non-meta build, it is as simiple as that.

Bradyfjord · May 2020

@Twilanthe You just need to work it out. Hypothetically anything can work race/class wise. But you will have to deal with the shortcomings of a nonstandard build. You might have to enchant a little differently or wear gear sets that others don't.

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

Every question you just asked should be directed towards your guild leader. You’re prob not gonna find a consensus on the forums about a divisive topic like that. Find a guild and ask some question.

@Fur_like_snow Fur gives good advice. If you have a guild, talk to people in it. Most likely they can help you achieve your goals more readily than anyone here on the forums.

thorwyn · May 2020

There are off-meta builds and there are "off"-meta builds. What I mean is, there are constellations that are more or less doing the same thing as the BIS builds, just not quite as effective and there are constellations that are the result of a huge misconception of what the class is supposed to do during a raid. One prime example are the tanks with 60k hp who think that taunting and staying alive is tanking. Those builds will have a huge impact on the performance of your group because they are creating a deficit that other players need to work around or compensate by adjusting their own setups.

Generally speaking, if the content is getting harder and harder, every lack of efficiency becomes more and more important. Every missing % of buff uptime and every % of passives from using the right skills and morphs will have an effect on the group's performance. Most wipes will still be a result of individual mistakes, but that are the "soft" factors that you need to practice on. Gear and builds are the "hard" factors, since you can just run the numbers and compare.

That being said, we have run all kind of veteran trials (vSS, vAS for example) with a bunch of people who were not even remotely wearing BIS sets let alone builds. It all works up to a certain point, until you hit the invisible wall.

Olen_Mikko · May 2020

I have NB healer, NB tank and some NB dps, and every one of them aren't near meta.

Actually i have never given a single ***** about meta, bis or anything else similar. And guess what? I can do hardmode veteran dungeons with them. Never done trials, and aren't interested of them, but they should be viable for them too.

I mean, even if you copy the best meta-bis-builds there is, you still need to learn how to play

MaxJrFTW · May 2020

I have a dk healer, in fact it's what i've been maining the last couple of weeks. It's without a doubt the weakest healer, but healing is so easy in ESO that it hardly matters. With that said i'm an argonian and not a nord, but the nord ult racial is good for any role.

Jdub is one of the best tanks in eso and he thinks nightblades are the best tanks for end game trials.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MApUwsbdaec

Race/class combinations in pve don't make or break a character. The difference between an optimal race and the worst one is less than 5%.

People saying you get kicked for playing non meta race/classes are full of the proverbial or straight up bad players who would have been kicked independently of race or class.

Chelo · May 2020

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

I once got kicked from a group right before the final boss when the tank realized I was a dragonknight and declared that anyone other than a templar couldn't be a healer and convinced the others to vote kick me.

And this was a group where we were steamrolling normal darkshade caverns 1 and nobody in the entire run had dropped below 90% health.

Afterward, the tank even sent me a hate message about how anyone healing with anything other than a templar was ruining the game for everyone else.

Aside from that kind of prejudice, you can definitely get through any (normal or vet) dungeon content healing on any class, although it certainly is easier with some builds than others.

I can't really comment on trials, but the same is probably true there, although you might need multiple roles running non-meta classes to make sure you have all of the necessary buffs/debuffs covered.

Base game normal dungeons can be done solo. Veteran trials are completely different.

Imagine the game like this.

Overland content: playing any game in "very easy difficulty"

Base Game and DLC Normal Dungeons: Very Easy difficulty.

Base Game Normal Trials: Easy difficulty.

Base Game Veteran Dungeons Hard Mode: Easy difficulty.

DLC Normal Trials: Normal difficulty.

Base Game Veteran Trials: Normal difficulty.

DLC Veteran Dungeons Hard Mode: Normal/Hard difficulty.

DLC Veteran Trials: Normal/Hard difficulty.

UntilValhalla13 · May 2020

It really only starts to matter in vet dlc trials. Even the Craglorn trials aren't an issue for the most part. If you're just derping around or going for a complete in something, you can do whatever. If you're pushing score or really difficult progressions, it's ideal to be on what brings the most to the group. It's not really about what you want, in that situation. It's what benefits the group the most. You're part of a 12 man machine, and every cog counts.

As a dps, you'd want to bring what hits the hardest to the best of your abilities to carry your own weight. If you're on support roles, run the class that brings the necessary buffs/debuffs that the group needs.

Races don't matter AS much anymore. Most dps races hit within a few k of each other.

Hamish999 · May 2020

Housing is perfectly fine in off meta gear and setups

Edit: everyone knows housing is the true endgame.